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August 11, 2009 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 11 August 2009

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racer1

“big bruv

The truth is that Bush kept the USA safe after 9/11, ”

Keep telling yourself that bruv
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August 11, 2009 1:43pm
KiwiGreg

@ Repton as you would or should know all of those things (cockpit doors, marshalls etc) are being done. Your argument is essentially “you can lock your doors and windows why are you wasting all those resources looking for the people who robbed your house?”
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August 11, 2009 1:46pm
philu

we need to radically raise taxes on the rich..

..(this will happen..sooner..or later..

..but it will happen..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/a-cure-for-an-ailing-economy-taxing-the-rich/

“..Not pursuing higher taxes on the rich is resulting in social devastation.

Look no farther than California, where Governor Schwarzenegger proudly declared that the state budget deficit was balanced “without raising taxes.”

Instead, the budget was balanced at the expense of education, health care, welfare, etc.

The working class and poor bore nearly the full extent of the burden.

This dynamic is quickly turning the country backwards .. to a world that resembles the last depression.

Indeed, during the great depression tax rates for the wealthiest were raised significantly..

.. from 24% in 1929, to 79% in 1936.

Again, it was economic necessity — combined with a growing working class insurgency —

– that determined the tax increase..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 11, 2009 2:02pm
andrei

AFAIK, NATO intervened to finish a war in progress. It was clear who the “bad guys” were.

So Clinton in his wisdom bombed the hell out of the good guys.
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August 11, 2009 2:12pm
dime

“big bruv

The truth is that Bush kept the USA safe after 9/11, ”

Keep telling yourself that bruv”

yea bruv! there were lots of terror attacks on US soil after 9/11. they just covered them up lol

how the hell can anyone argue that Bush didnt keep the US safe after 9/11????

ya dont think any terror attack would have been used by Bush as a mandate to bomb more brown people?
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August 11, 2009 2:12pm
Repton

@ Repton as you would or should know all of those things (cockpit doors, marshalls etc) are being done. Your argument is essentially “you can lock your doors and windows why are you wasting all those resources looking for the people who robbed your house?”

If I got burgled, i’d tell the police. If the police told me “there’s no fingerprints and no witnesses, so you probably won’t get your stuff back, sorry”, then I wouldn’t quit my job and take a second mortgage so I could spend all my time hunting for the thieves — because that would be financially stupid. The best thing for me to do would be to use my resources to replace my stuff and move on with my life. Maybe get a home security system to make sure it doesn’t happen again. The phrase is “throwing good money after bad”. That’s what America has been doing.
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August 11, 2009 2:17pm
big bruv

Anyway…

I always work on the basis that when you are prepared to put the boot into somebody you should also be among the first to praise them when they do well.

So on that I feel that I should say a big “bloody well done Mr Key” for having the balls to send our SAS back into Afghanistan, we should have been there and in Iraq from day one and it is to our eternal shame that we chickened out, however, nothing can be done about that so again I congratulate Key on doing what is right.
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August 11, 2009 2:23pm
philu

i don’t know why all you righties are moaning about obama..

..he has already proven himself to be your ‘bitch’..

what’s yer problem..?

..he is just another bush..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/nader-was-right-liberals-are-going-nowhere-with-obamathose-attracted-to-power-tend-to-be-venal-mediocrities/

“..The American empire has not altered under Barack Obama.

It kills as brutally and indiscriminately in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan as it did under George W. Bush.

It steals from the U.S. treasury to enrich the corporate elite as rapaciously.

It will not give us universal health care, abolish the Bush secrecy laws, end torture or “extraordinary rendition,” restore habeas corpus ..

.. or halt the warrantless wiretapping and monitoring of citizens.

It will not push through significant environmental reform, regulate Wall Street ..

.. or end our relationship with private contractors that provide mercenary armies to fight our imperial wars ..

.. and produce useless and costly weapons systems..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 11, 2009 2:28pm
Manolo

“we need to radically raise taxes on the rich.”

The imbecility of this policy deserves no comment; but highlights the moral bankruptcy of the myriad of bludgers, whom not even satisfied with what they currenlty receive, ask for more and more taxpayer’s assistance.

Absurd and obscene.
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August 11, 2009 2:30pm
KiwiGreg

@ BB mostly agree.

Also I thought this was a nice opinion piece from someone who seems to have actually been in Afghanistan

http://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/2740327/Afghans-grateful-for-Kiwi-help

Also I have always thought Minto looked like a retard, but now he just looks like a mean retard.
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August 11, 2009 2:31pm
KiwiGreg

@ Manolo dont give him oxygen. It’s a waste of time.
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August 11, 2009 2:32pm
tom hunter

Absurd and obscene.

Indeed Manolo. But give the old fella credit as the penny has at last dropped about the hero of whom he once said:

obama is about to show the way to the future..
by massive state investment in ‘greening’ america/the american/global way of life..
he will make roosevelt look like a tightwad..

However I see by his comments above – “..“..How the health-care industry, the GOP and one media mogul made common cause with the anti-government fringe….. – that he still has not quite figured out exactly how corporate America (well Big Pharma anyway) is going to screw a lot of ordinary people:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/health/policy/09lobby.html?_r=1&ref=us

and now with Robert Reich as an added bonus:
http://robertreich.blogspot.com/2009/08/white-houses-deal-with-big-pharma.html

And yet the Left still do not get the problems with Big Government. Here’s a hint – Big Business loves them!
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August 11, 2009 2:44pm
starboard

we need to radically raise taxes on the rich..

..(this will happen..sooner..or later..

..but it will happen..

whatever whore…tax me any harder and I will just stop working. I will join the hordes of bludgers and sign up on the dole…hey what the fuck..we can all just stop working and go on the dole…sit ’round get stoned…waste days and nights writing shite on blogs…talkin about conspiracy theories…yeah !! oh to be like the whore…goin somewhere…
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August 11, 2009 2:46pm
Nomestradamus

Tom Hunter:

obama is about to show the way to the future..
by massive state investment in ‘greening’ america/the american/global way of life..
he will make roosevelt look like a tightwad..

Philu now seems to think Obama is “..just another bush..”. Are you saying this is yet another prediction that Philu got horribly wrong?
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August 11, 2009 3:04pm
tom hunter

Are you saying this is yet another prediction that Philu got horribly wrong?

Oh no! Predictions require facts, a theory based on rational understanding, and a working model based on that theory – working in the sense that when fed the same facts it produces the same answer.

What we have from Phil are random mutterings that simply drop out of the class-warfare prejudice box when more than two brain cells manage to collide and connect with the patella reflex, which then smashes into said box.
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August 11, 2009 3:28pm
philu

“..Are you saying this is yet another prediction that Philu got horribly wrong?.”

i’m not the only one bitterly disappointed that he has changed s.f.a..

when he campagned on promising so much..

(y’know..much like key/national did..?..)

and since then..just a litany of broken promises..

(y’know..!..much like key/national have done..?)

key was right..when he said that he and obama were similar..

as it turns out..you could hardly slide a cigarette paper between them..now..

as they march off to war together..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 11, 2009 3:29pm
philu

could someone tell starbored that the upcoming commercial real estate meltdown..

..both in america..and here..(haven’t you noticed all the stores/factories closing..?

..even upmarket areas like ponsonby..in parts..

..resemble some provincial wasteland..

and hands up all those who think even more shops/restuarants/factories..now just staggering alone..will also close..?

..(thus accelerating that inevitable bursting of the commercial real estate bubble..)

whaddaya do with an empty factory/shop..that nobody wants..?

(i’m picking that if homeless numbers spiral up..

..we’ll see some serious squatting going on..

..with the authorities turning a blind eye..

knowing evicting homeless families/people will likely spark social unrest..

this is no conspiracy..

..this is our near future..

..deny all you like..stick yr heads in the sand..

‘look..!..over there..!..’green shoots..!’..

in yer dreams..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 11, 2009 3:39pm
Cerium

“how the hell can anyone argue that Bush didnt keep the US safe after 9/11????”

How the hell can anyone argue that Bush kept the US safe? 9-11. New Orleans. Iraq. How many casualties on his watch? How much cost?

Don’t worry about Spain and the UK. They weren’t Americans.

Other than that, how he kept the US safe at home could be because of a number of things. Extra border security. Extra surveillance (debatable). Luck. Taking the fight to where they were much easier targets (aka sucked into the Middle East).
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August 11, 2009 4:17pm
philu

and i see john key has his sights firmly set on going down with the american ship..

..eh..?

..his indecent rush..(like hoyoake before him)..

..to join obama in his ‘vietnam’/folly..

..someone described the political-naievete of key as him being a ‘harry potter on the geopolitical stage’..

i dunno..!..

i think he’s stuck back in ‘boys own’ adventures..

a jolly jape amongst the towel-heads..

..eh..?

(c’mon simon..!..right-ho john..!..)

steel yrselves for body-bags..and war-crimes..

..all in our name..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 11, 2009 4:25pm
mattyroo

Well philu, why not go and assist with the reconstruction in Afghanistan yourself, and *contribute* something worthwhile to this world?

Guess what, they have shitloads of opium over there, so on the weekends, you’d be able to blow your fuckin loony mind out!!
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August 11, 2009 4:40pm
big bruv

Phool

Doesn’t it make you feel proud to see NZ finally doing its bit in the war on terror?

Good on John Key.
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August 11, 2009 4:54pm
William J

Happy Birthday John Key! I think it is his birthday today. Or was it a few days ago on the 8th? Not sure. Anyway – Happy Birthday. Thought it was worth a mention on Kiwiblog.
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August 11, 2009 4:54pm
KiwiGreg

Umm Cerium 9/11 was ON 9/11 not after. New Orleans was a storm not terrorism (I guess maybe the muslims prayed for it and it turns out they are right and it really is their god?????). They invaded Iraq, it’s in Iraq not the US. Not sure what point you are making.
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August 11, 2009 4:59pm
Hurf Durf

Phool, it’s the leftards and Union thugs beating up protestors, preventing conservatives from entering town halls and denigrating their opponents in the media as terrorists and racists. Did you know Big Pharma is stumping up $150 million to benefit Obummer’s healthcare plans? Did you know the Obummer regime is employing pro-regime protestors via Craig’s List? Did you? So much for that grassroots.

Instead, the budget was balanced at the expense of education, health care, welfare, etc.

That’s what happens when you spend what you don’t have. Tax the rich, tax the rich, tax the rich. That’s all I hear. Then when you’ve squeezed the rich, what happens? Tax the middle class, tax the middle class, tax the middle class. Then when the bloated system crashes under its own weight of beneficiary slaves and economic stagnation? Societal collapse. Take your solution and show it.
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August 11, 2009 5:07pm
Cerium

Umm KG, GW was warned about an impending attack before 9-11.

New Orleans was handled was badly, they could have saved lives. And it could recovered a lot better. GW’s mate Brownie did a “heckuva job” – not.

A lot of money and blood has been spent by the US in Iraq. It was unjustified. Do you think the anti-US would find it easier to attack and bog the US down in the middle of their own patch, or try to attack the US on the other side of the world while increased security in place?
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August 11, 2009 5:13pm
philu

“.Take your solution and show it..”

ok..

got any links/evidence on yr ‘leftards and Union thugs beating up protestors’..?

..(surely the camera crews were there..?)

we have massive inequalities on this planet..

a redistribution of the global wealth is the only way to stop this..

..and to stop the development of a global dystopia..

(ever been to port moresby..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 11, 2009 5:15pm
Hurf Durf

GW was warned about an impending attack before 9-11.

He was. And what was he supposed to do? Install anti-aircraft systems at every vaguely important installation in the United States? Mobilise soldiers and place them there for who knows how long until the attack happens or the threat’s been defused? Or then the same people who bitched about him not doing enough would have bitch about over-reacting. “WHY ARE YOU TAKING AWAY OUR FREEDOM OF MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVEMENT?” “IT’S A COUP!” “FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASCISM!” and so on and so on.

I’ll criticise Dubya for a lot of things, but I don’t see, if I were in his position, how much more different he could have done things in the miniscule six months before 9/11. Other than abduct the suspected perpetrators and quietly dispose of them, but that would be illeeeeeeeeeeeeeeegaaaaaaaaaaaaaal.
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August 11, 2009 5:19pm
Hurf Durf

got any links/evidence on yr ‘leftards and Union thugs beating up protestors’..?

Yes. http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/08/general_debate_8_august_2009.html#comment-594255.

we have massive inequalities on this planet..

a redistribution of the global wealth is the only way to stop this..

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/08/id_forgotten_how_bad_clark_could_be.html#comment-594273

I don’t see why I should keep track of my posts for you, but considering just how fucked your brain is I’m not surprised.
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August 11, 2009 5:23pm
starboard

..your fucked in the head whore..get a job..have you ever had a job? Nah didnt think so. Loser.
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August 11, 2009 5:50pm
racer1

“dime

yea bruv! there were lots of terror attacks on US soil after 9/11. they just covered them up lol”

They have made the chances of the US massively higher, and made the world a more dangerous place for every westerner.
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August 11, 2009 6:06pm
Haiku Dave

GM wondered if
red’s a hologram; not so,
he’s really a meme
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August 11, 2009 6:20pm
Nomestradamus

Philu:

Given your strong anti-war stance, could you please explain how you would have liberated the oppressed and downtrodden (a constituency group you claim to support) in Iraq under Sadamn, and Zimbabwe under Mugabe?

Hurf Durf:

You raised the subject of union interference in your 5:07 pm comment. This story (key excerpts below) gives some disturbing insights into union practices within the Australian mining sector:

Pity those poor workers in the rich iron ore fields in Western Australia’s Pilbara region. They are so exploited that there is a strong possibility industrial action will erupt as two key unions fight for the right to represent them.
…
The simple fact is Pilbara workers are hardly underpaid. It’s a fair estimate that the lowest paid would still be clearing six figures a year. Train drivers, some of whom are covered by the CFMEU, are reported to be earning between $160,000 and $200,000. There are quite a few GPs who would like to take home that sort of money.

These are workers who hardly need union coverage – and many opt not to join. Over a period of years the Pilbara went from being one of the most unionised workplaces in the country – it was employers that used to insist all workers going on site have a union ticket – to one dominated by individual contracts.
…
It seems incredible that after nearly two decades of industrial peace in the Pilbara, those unions could disrupt it with demarcation disputes over workers who are hardly on the breadline.

Indeed, it’s hard to escape the feeling that this looming dispute is more about defending union dues coming from well-paid workers than any sense of genuine industrial grievances.

That the union movement is investing time and resources to gain coverage in the Pilbara where workers are more likely to need the services of a financial planner than a union organiser says a great deal about the movement’s sense of priorities at a time when about 85 per cent of the private sector is not in a union.

Mind-boggling stuff! Now where are those lefties who point to militant Australian unionism as the way forward for New Zealand?
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August 11, 2009 6:30pm
william blake

Redbait you quote;

1.”The left’s only answer is always – SHUT UP..!!!”

then.

2. “Get the message. Fuck off with your asinine demands. I do not dance to the tune of people I regard as odious scum.”

at least you represent the stupid rednecks of this country accurately.
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August 11, 2009 6:51pm
XChequer

Philu – Been to Port Moresby. What is your point?
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August 11, 2009 7:54pm
Loco Burro

New Controller and Auditor General Named – Lyn Provost
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August 11, 2009 8:10pm
philu

‘dystopia’..?

rich elites..?

many with nothing..?

high walls..?

guard dogs..?

private armed guards protecting those rich..from the poor…?

enough ‘points’ for you..?

phil(whoar.co.nz
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August 11, 2009 8:10pm
XChequer

I’ll ignore the smartarse “points” suggestion and just ask, “How long did you stay in PNG?”
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August 11, 2009 8:12pm
Gulag Archipelago

A superficial observation of PNG, a better view…
http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Papua_New_Guinea
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August 11, 2009 8:43pm
Buggerlugs

at least we don’t live in the EU…

Nobel House
17 Smith Square
London
SW1P 3JR

March 27 2009

Dear Secretary of State,

My friend, who is in farming at the moment, recently received a cheque for £3,000 from the Rural Payments Agency for NOT rearing pigs. I would now like to join the “not rearing pigs” business.

In your opinion, what is the best kind of farm not to rear pigs on, and which is the best breed of pigs not to rear? I want to be sure I approach this endeavour in keeping with all government policies, as dictated by the EU under the Common Agricultural Policy. I would prefer not to rear bacon pigs, but if this is not the type you want not rearing, I will just as gladly not rear porkers. Are there any advantages in not rearing rare breeds such as Saddlebacks or Gloucester Old Spots, or are there too many people already not rearing these?

As I see it, the hardest part of this program will be keeping an accurate record of how many pigs I haven’t reared. Are there any Government or Local Authority courses on this?

My friend is very satisfied with this business. He has been rearing pigs for forty years or so, and the best he ever made on them was £1,422 in 1968. That is – until this year, when he received a cheque for not rearing any.

If I get £3,000 for not rearing 50 pigs, will I get £6,000 for not rearing 100?

I plan to operate on a small scale at first, holding myself down to about 4,000 pigs not raised, which will mean about £240,000 for the first year. As I become more expert in not rearing pigs, I plan to be more ambitious, perhaps increasing to, say, 40,000 pigs not reared in my second year, for which I should expect about £2.4 million from your department.

Incidentally, I wonder if I would be eligible to receive tradable carbon credits for all these pigs not producing harmful and polluting methane gases?

Another point: These pigs that I plan not to rear will not eat 2,000 tonnes of cereals. I understand that you also pay farmers for not growing crops. Will I qualify for payments for not growing cereals to not feed the pigs I don’t rear?

I am also considering the “not milking cows” business, so please send any information you have on that too. Please could you also include the current Defra advice on set aside fields? Can this be done on an e-commerce basis with virtual fields (of which I seem to have several thousand hectares)?

In view of the above you will realize that I will be totally unemployed, and will therefore qualify for unemployment benefits.

Yours faithfully,

(name withheld)
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August 11, 2009 9:26pm
getstaffed

Key orders inquiry into heating scheme prices

Extract:

Energy officials have been asked to look at whether heating and insulation companies are hiking prices to take advantage of a Government scheme.

Prime Minister John Key said yesterday he would be concerned if the subsidy had the effect of leading to higher prices and not the anticipated benefit to consumers. “I’ve certainly said to my officials I think it’s something we should have a look at.”

Hello John?!? … it’s called supply and demand. NCEA Level 1 stuff. You have artificially increased demand, supply hasn’t yet changed, and the price has gone up. Did you expect anything else? When you interfere with a market you get distortions and unintended consequences.
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August 11, 2009 10:19pm
Glutaemus Maximus

Hilary Clinton loses her composure after being asked a question by a Congolese student.

And Later………….

Hillary: “Nuke Congo!”
Aide: “Of course, madam. Which Congo would you wish to nuke? Brazzaville or Kinshasa or both?”
Hillary: “You mean there are two?! like Irak and Iran?”
Aide: “There are indeed. There are two Koreas too. As you know, your husb….”
Hillary: “Nuke them all!”
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August 12, 2009 12:22am

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