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July 1, 2009 8:05am by David Farrar

General Debate 1 July 2009

Halfway through the year!

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General Debate

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Glutaemus Maximus

Miracle of the 5 year old found from the downed airliner. Amazing. What are the odds?
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July 1, 2009 8:21am
philu

this should make you very very nervous..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/warning-britain-faces-new-recession/

(here comes ‘the double-dip’..!

..and no..it isn’t an icecream..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 8:36am
toad

Just three days left for Sheryl the communicator to pull the plug on the referendumb and save the taxpayer $6 million.
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July 1, 2009 8:39am
starboard

..shouldnt you be on your way to work flu..oh thats right , your a dole bludger…
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July 1, 2009 8:40am
Cerium

Is it too late for her to change the question? This would mean more:

Would good parents be better parents if they learnt to smack less?
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July 1, 2009 8:41am
NOt1tocommentoften

As much as I think the whole debate is rubbish, I really don’t think it is fair to put all the burden on one woman here…
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July 1, 2009 8:45am
Murray

Why the hell should the people not have a voice toad. Or do you only support the voice of the people in your head?

Engough people signed up for referendum so they damn well get one. You can take the price tag OFF my democracy thanks.
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July 1, 2009 8:47am
toad

Under the law she as proposer is no the only person who has the power to put an end to this farce.
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July 1, 2009 8:47am
goonix

Obama’s Elf:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_B5UrI7nAI
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July 1, 2009 8:48am
Cerium

N1tco – yeah, I agree with that.

I’m sure it seemed like a worthy idea at the time, it will be tough on her watching it unraveling.
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July 1, 2009 8:48am
Le Grande Fromage

Is it too late to add another question to the referendum?

“Should communist jizz stains fuck off with their meddling in peoples lives?”
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July 1, 2009 8:49am
toad

Murray said: Why the hell should the people not have a voice toad.

If the referendum had a question that made sense, I would agree with you. Tell me, how is someone who doesn’t think smacking is part of good parental corrrection but doesn’t think it should be a criminal offence (which is most people, I suspect) meant to vote.
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July 1, 2009 9:04am
david

Starboard – careful now, phil gets upset when being called a dole bludger, he is a DPB beneficiary of many years standing. I think that is code for Upsize and fries with dole bludging or Postrgrad Diploma in Beneficiarism.
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July 1, 2009 9:06am
peterwn

Another Labour ‘own goal’. Labour asked why John Key went first class to APEC last November. It was Helen Clark’s staff who had arranged the booking and it seems she normally travelled first class. John is quite happy to fly business class and expect his ministers to do likewise.

It is getting to the stage where National members need not ask patsy questions – it is easier to knock a six off opposition MPs’ questions.
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July 1, 2009 9:11am
Glutaemus Maximus

he is a DPB beneficiary of many years standing.

And so good at it!!

And points, aka full stops.

What a boring, meaningless, vacuous life.

Just a product of the System. Labour’s system of creating a captive voter base.
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July 1, 2009 9:12am
Brian Smaller

toad – get together the appropriate amount of signatures and have your own referendum. The question is simple. The answer is either yes or no.
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July 1, 2009 9:13am
philu

“..# starboard (135) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
July 1st, 2009 at 8:40 am

..shouldnt you be on your way to work flu..oh thats right , your a dole bludger…”

..and you have a nice day..eh ..?

..i hope the weather there is good for you..

..it’s a beautiful sunny day here in akkers..(the paris of the north..)

(puzzled..?..this 8.46 am from today..in june 30 th thread will explain all..eh..?

..you have one month..!)

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/06/general_debate_30_june_2009.html#comments

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 9:13am
Cerium

I think the only honest answer I can give is Yes and No. That should count.
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July 1, 2009 9:20am
Nookin

I had to check the date today. After watching Breakfast today where one of our esteemed academics advancied the proposition that parents should have one vote for themselves and one vote for each child under 18 I thought we were back on April 1. Just think, Macsyna King would have had 4 votes
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July 1, 2009 9:32am
Inventory2

toad said “Just three days left for Sheryl the communicator to pull the plug on the referendumb and save the taxpayer $6 million.”

Surely toad, you’re not sucked in by that argument? Helen Clark could have held the referendum concurrent to the 2008 General Election at minimal cost to the taxpayer. You’re shooting the messenger.
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July 1, 2009 9:33am
slightlyrighty

Toad.

6 million would have been saved if the referendum was part of the general election, but one woman (Helen Clark) put the kybosh on that.

Mind you, If labour had paid what NZ rail was actually worth, we could have used the money saved to fund 60 referendums.
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July 1, 2009 9:34am
RightNow

I think we all know who to blame for the referendum toad. We all know why Bradford isn’t your co-leader.
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July 1, 2009 9:36am
toad

RightNow said: I think we all know who to blame for the referendum toad. We all know why Bradford isn’t your co-leader.

But nice Mr Key got the Nats to support her Bill and says the current law is working well. Maybe the Green membership think she’s too close to him.
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July 1, 2009 10:01am
philu

this should interest the stats-dudes..

..and righties should be ‘engaged..by the conclusions reached..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/true-or-false-us-economic-stats-lie-social-security-payments-are-just-one-benefit-adjusted-each-year-for-increases-in-the-cost-of-living-if-the-figures-hadn%e2%80%99t-been-corrupted-cheques-might-be-c/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 10:16am
wreck1080

A fascinating case between the US and Swiss based UBS.

The US Govt is demanding that UBS release account information relating to 52,000 US citizens. Assuming, these accounts are actively used to evade US tax.

The US say that UBS are breaking US tax law, while UBS are saying that releasing the information will break Swiss laws.

I want the info released, there will be some big US names in that list.

I wonder, if little NZ could wield it’s might to get the information regarding nz taxpayers. I bet there will be quite a few.

If the US wins, then maybe NZ could get a look-in on the tails of the US. That would be just awesome!!!

Although, i think it is stupid that the US demand US citizens to pay US income tax even if they don’t live in the US. That is just pathetic.
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July 1, 2009 10:23am
bjchip

It is working “well” … because it does allow smacking. The only difference in what is permitted between the current law and the previous law is that smacking “for the purposes of correction” is illegal.

Anything else is subject to the EXACT same standard of reasonable force that existed before. So that defense of “reasonable force” can be applied to the use of a riding crop or a cricket bat or a tire-iron with absolutely the same likelihood of success as before. All you have to do is claim you were trying to prevent disruptive behavior instead of trying to teach the child something.

…and the police decide whether you go to court.

If there is a significant difference I can’t see it. Nor does the referendum do anything to help the situation.

Greens CAN vote “no” on the referendum and some will. It wasn’t a Green Party initiative.

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 10:27am
bjchip

Wreck1080

The first $80k (US) is free of tax.

BJ
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July 1, 2009 10:30am
bjchip

Also the rules are such that most countries have bilateral tax agreements to keep double taxation from being a problem, and most of the people being discussed DO live in the USA. They just have swiss accounts, historically a good way to hide money. It will affect some citizens abroad. Not many.

I do my banking here, earn my money here, file a nugatory tax return because the exchange rate means that I took a salary cut of nigh on 40% for the privilege of coming to NZ.

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 10:34am
philu

here is a useful link on the swiss/american tax issue..referred to by wreck..

(ahem..i covered it the other day..

..dare i say it..?..’whoar..always first..!..’..)

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/swiss-banks-dump-us-clients-as-taxman-closes-in/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 10:40am
Patrick Starr

“toad – get together the appropriate amount of signatures and have your own referendum”

The interesting thing about that Brian is I’m told more people signed the referendum than voted for the Greens in the 2008 election
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July 1, 2009 10:44am
Le Grande Fromage

“The interesting thing about that Brian is I’m told more people signed the referendum than voted for the Greens in the 2008 election”

According to the figures four times more people have mental illness in New Zealand than voted Green in 2008. Makes you realise that they are not getting all of their potential vote.
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July 1, 2009 10:54am
RightNow

I think that voter pool was split with NZ First and the ALCP though big cheese.
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July 1, 2009 11:00am
bearhunter

“Halfway through the year!”

Why so cheerful? All July 1 means to me is that the Govt has added another 2.8% (at least) to my drinks bill. Thanks guys. No really, thanks a bunch…
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July 1, 2009 11:01am
big bruv

“Just three days left for Sheryl the communicator to pull the plug on the referendumb and save the taxpayer $6 million.”

Witness the high level of panic sweeping through the watermelons as they face the horrendous prospect of the people getting what they want.

Do these wankers REALLY think they know what is right for us?
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July 1, 2009 11:01am
bjchip

Phil’s link has a point. The stats being used in the USA have been altered in many and vile ways. The real data on unemployment, GDP and the rest is massively worse in the US, than the headline numbers indicate. Moreover, the economy there is not really recovering. Goldman-Sachs is doing OK, and the bailout has kept the banks healthy… but the population as a whole is sweating blood.

Watch the housing… KEEP watching the housing very closely. I expect the second dip to happen between September and November of this year.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/06/175-california-hotels-in-default.html
http://railfax.transmatch.com/

The government of NZ isn’t in the same league for dishonest bookkeeping.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/06/decade-of-lost-jobs.html
http://www.shadowstats.com/

What should happen here though… Capital Gains or Land Tax or Ring-fencing the LAQC to discourage speculation in housing and some regulatory support and tax advantages to people making productive rather than passive investments and businesses, that isn’t happening. Even if Cap-Gains were offset by income tax reductions to make it all revenue neutral it is purely not happening.

So we have house prices still at least 20% higher than justified by REAL supply-demand, supported by moneylenders in Oz. That means that the extra mortgage interest that we are paying is basically an indirect taxpayer subsidy of those banks. Which is why they were so EAGER to lend us all the money we would take to bid house prices up. Because for a lot of people playing “landlord” the interest paid is tax deductible through the LAQC.

Better would be to change the currency to be based on something real. Not necessarily the shiny yellow stuff. A few KWH of electrical work would be good. Abandon the Chicago school, embrace the Austrians and be free.

http://mises.org/story/3522

Change THIS and the government stops having quite the freedom to run inflationary policies or spend more than it can actually earn. The economy stabilizes. The banker’s hand in your back pocket, gets broken off at the wrist. That isn’t of course ALL that will happen, but it alters the equation to favor US instead of people in other countries.

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 11:05am
bjchip

DPF – I think your spam filters ate a post of mine. All I can think of is that it contained too many links. If there is some guidance as to what the limits are, I would appreciate it.
respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 11:51am
gd

Nookin Id go along with parents getting a vote fro their children PROVIDED teh parents past an IQ test and apolitical knowledge test that I set them

Otherwise we have the dumb and the uninformed deciding who will govern

Ohhh I forgot we have that as well AND the same problem with those who seek to govern
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July 1, 2009 11:51am
toad

Four Green Bills coming up in Member’s Day today…

Must be because the Green MPs work so hard they get so many Member’s Bills drawn.
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July 1, 2009 11:54am
big bruv

Four Green Bills and four crushing defeats.

Still think it was a good idea to throw your lot in with Labour Toad?
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July 1, 2009 11:58am
bjchip

Phil has a point about the economy.. and the statistics.

http://railfax.transmatch.com/

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/06/decade-of-lost-jobs.html

http://www.shadowstats.com/

We are being lied to, systematically and with malice aforethought, by the minions of the banking sector.

Most recently Goldman-Sachs-The-Planet managed to get THIS through…

http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/nyse-halts-transparency-feels-goldman.html

and their historical control of the economy is not exactly the stuff that inspires confidence in their actual commitment to free or fair trade.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16763183/TaibbiGoldmanSachs

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 11:58am
bjchip

BB

Please provide a reason WHY the medical marijuana bill should be defeated. There isn’t any I can think of, and I am looking forward to your defense of the indefensible.

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 12:01pm
bjchip

Clearly it is the number of links. There appears to be an upper limit.

BJ
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July 1, 2009 12:02pm
Le Grande Fromage

Interesting paralells between the medical marijuana argument and the smacking thing.

If you have glaucoma and use a bit of weed for the pain then I dare say the police wouldn’t bother you but it would still be illegal.

Smack your kid and (according to the Greens) the cops wont bother you but it would still be illegal.
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July 1, 2009 12:13pm
bjchip

Also BB, since I know you DO hang out on the Greens Frogblog site (if only to annoy the inhabitants of the swamp) it is also pretty clear that you know that there isn’t a lot of panic there…. nor any real uniformity of opinion.

Try to portray things as they actually are and perhaps we can find things we agree on.

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 12:20pm
RightNow

Toad, those bills are all the sort of bills voters would actually associate with the green party (as opposed to being social engineering policy). Good luck with them, especially the medicinal marijuana bill. While I don’t believe it is appropriate to decriminalise it for general use due to the correlation with mental illness, I believe it has valid uses and can be far more effective with lesser side effects than many of the drugs promoted by big pharmaceutical companies.
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July 1, 2009 12:24pm
RightNow

bjchip, please don’t encourage that fool. most of us see the dots and instantly skip to the next post. If you lead him on he’ll get all excited and litter the blog with more punctuation crimes. Ignore him and he can get back to being super-stoner-dad
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July 1, 2009 12:31pm
bjchip

Actually…

They come down on you for the Mary Jane. The law doesn’t recognize medical use at all, it recognizes “CLASS-C DRUG – BAD” and the police do not have a lot of discretion if the amount appears large but a medical user will likely consume more than a recreational user.

http://www.norml.org.nz/article537.html

We have a lot of people in prison behind the Cannabis law, where we capitulated to the US DEA in 1975 and never looked back. Maybe we should. Ask the Cato institute.

This is very different from the smacking legislation, which is actually a meaningless change with a widely publicized false front. The cops really won’t bother you, and they have a very strong legal discretion to not bother you.

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 12:34pm
bjchip

Hmmm.. both posts are cleared now. Which is the equivalent of a double post. For which I apologize to the board.

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 12:36pm
bjchip

If you look closer at the stats on the correlation with mental illness you’ll find that the issue is not clear cut and there is apparently a fairly clear genetic predisposition that goes with it.

http://www.norml.org.nz/article539.html

=== reprises a New Scientist story.

I went to Uni in the late 60’s and early 70’s (yup, that old), and pretty much everyone in the dorm lit up and inhaled deeply. They went on to become MDs and Lawyers and Engineers… and none the worse for wear.

I think personally, that an age limit and some additional information (a simple test for the genetic vulnerability would be a very good thing) would suffice. I hate seeing kids lighting up as young as they do. I hate worse the effects of having pushers and gangs controlling supply and quality and benefiting from the money flow as THEY do. I hate the increased crime that indirectly funds the dealers. I hate the increased taxes to fund the jails to fight the crime.

Green policy is “harm minimization” not open-slather.

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 12:54pm
Jack5

Bjchip posted at 12.01: “…Please provide a reason WHY the medical marijuana bill should be defeated.”

1. Smoking kills. Right? That’s what your PC mates have been pushing down the public’s throats to the stage CHristchurch is talking of banning smoking outside in public parks.

2. Smoking stuffs your lungs.

3. All the Greens would go onto prescriptions with mysterious ailments. They would want the State to pay for the dope.

4. Bongs pong.

5. Ill people on marijuana would be a danger on the roads.

6. Fairness – ill cigarette smokers (and I’m not thinking of those with lung cancer or emphysema) are not allowed to puff.

7. We don’t want Green folk dancing and Buddhist “umming and ooming” chants annoying other hospital patients.

8. Smoking marijuana tends to stuff up your sense of time while you are high. We can’t have marijuana creating havoc for medical appointments.
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July 1, 2009 1:07pm
Jack5

An additional reason why the medical marijuana bill should be defeated….

Just look at what some substance (probably marijuana) has done to the bothersome troller Philu.
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July 1, 2009 1:13pm
philu

jack said..

“..1. Smoking kills. Right? That’s what your PC mates have been pushing down the public’s throats to the stage CHristchurch is talking of banning smoking outside in public parks..”

i don’t have the actual link..(but cd find it at a push..(on whoar)..

..but a study focussing on the smoke from tobacco and weed..

..found/concluded that the smoke from cannabis did not have those same cancer-causing properties found in tobacco..

..and are in fact very different beasts..

..about all they have in common..is that both are ‘smoke’..

(as i said..if needed..i’ll dig out the link..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 1:26pm
Jack5

Where there’s green smoke there’s phire-ilu.
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July 1, 2009 1:31pm
Komata

Can someone (Toad?) explain to me the ‘Green-think’ which says ‘Nicotine’ cigarette bad, ‘Marijuana’ cigarette good?

You inhale both, both contain harmful substances, both are bad for your health, and yet the Greens are incredibly insistent that one is better that the other.

Why?
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July 1, 2009 1:35pm
philu

garth george arguing this on nat rad last wk was a hoot..

all he cd come up with..when pushed for ‘why not change the law..?’

was only able to say,,’because its’ illegal’..(!)

(yes..but..garth..)

..and that it is a ‘gateway drug’..

..a hoary old lie so creaky/discredited you rarely hear it uttered now..

..and if we are talking ‘gateway drugs’..

..given that alcohol in the mind of alcoholics distills into an opiate..

…(that is what differentiates alcoholics and drunks..that chemical alteration..

..and alcohol withdrawals/’the horrors’ are a cousin of heroin/opiate withdrawals..

..it also explains why so many ex-junkies clasp alcohol to their bosom…

..(that or that vile methadone..(shudder..!..)

.anyway..the point for garth george..

..(and other trotters out of that hoary old chestnut..)

..that following his gateway theorem..

..alcohol should be banned…

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 1:35pm
bjchip

I will treat this as seriously as I can… I know it was written more for entertainment.

1. Smoking kills. Right? That’s what your PC mates have been pushing down the public’s throats to the stage CHristchurch is talking of banning smoking outside in public parks.
Not a Green party policy. Who’s idea was it?

2. Smoking stuffs your lungs.
True. Cannabis is not addictive, people smoke less of it. For Medical users the tradeoff is dying of cancer in 30 years vs being able to eat and enjoy today

3. All the Greens would go onto prescriptions with mysterious ailments. They would want the State to pay for the dope.

This is not worthy of reply.

4. Bongs pong.

Where? In the home of the individual who is ill.

5. Ill people on marijuana would be a danger on the roads.

Nothing in this law changes the “driving under the influence” laws.
Cannabis users are usually aware that their driving is impaired, they drive badly AND slowly.
Ill people are always a danger on the roads.

6. Fairness – ill cigarette smokers (and I’m not thinking of those with lung cancer or emphysema) are not allowed to puff.

I hadn’t heard of cigarettes having a medicinal effect. Is there something new in the literature?

7. We don’t want Green folk dancing and Buddhist “umming and ooming” chants annoying other hospital patients.

This is not worthy of reply.

8. Smoking marijuana tends to stuff up your sense of time while you are high. We can’t have marijuana creating havoc for medical appointments.

Given the percentage of the population to be affected, this is not likely to be a problem.

Given that Phil is swearing off the ad-homs for the month, this seems to me to be a cheap shot.

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 1:43pm
Jack5

A fresh bone to chew on folk. This article, which I found through the glorious Arts & Letters Daily, mentions the Queen’s apology to Maori as it discusses historians and international victimhood. An interesting read.

http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=21676
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July 1, 2009 1:48pm
philu

here is that link for you..jack..

..it will take you to seven other links..which will answer any/all questions you may have re cancer/pot…

..(it also includes that study/comparion between tobacco/cannabis smoke i referred to earlier..)

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/media-hysterics-about-supposed-potcancer-link-nothing-new/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 1:57pm
RightNow

Let’s be clear, and fair to the greens, I don’t think the decriminalisation of marijuana is one of their policies and I believe it hasn’t been since Nandor’s tenure.
However, the promotion of marijuana as being harmless is outright wrong. The evidence is clear and plentiful. It is hard to believe that there are people out there who would raise children while under the influence of this drug (well, it should be hard to believe, unfortunately it’s just too common). I believe it was in the Nia Glassie case that an early childhood worker testified to smelling cannabis on Nia. Where there’s smoke there’s danger to the children. There is impaired mental functionality, poor reaction times, possibly hallucinations and usually depression.
The real problem though is lost motivation. It is why so many habitual users do not break out of their rut. They simply can’t be bothered, they simply have no ambition. As long as they can have another smoke they don’t care too much about anything else.
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July 1, 2009 2:05pm
philu

do you have any links/evidence for those claims..?..rightnow..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 2:20pm
Ryan Sproull

The real problem though is lost motivation. It is why so many habitual users do not break out of their rut. They simply can’t be bothered, they simply have no ambition. As long as they can have another smoke they don’t care too much about anything else.

Ignoring for a second that it’s their choice to live their life that way and you’re not their dad, this is also not necessarily the case, in my experience. I know several very active, intelligent, hard-working professionals who smoke weed as regularly as many people drink alcohol.
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July 1, 2009 2:20pm
bjchip

Komata

To summarize what I just said towards your reasonable question.

1. Nicotine is an incredibly addictive substance. Cannabis is not addictive. You cannot develop a physical dependency on Marijuana though this is possible and quite likely for both Cigarettes and Alcohol. You do not need more and stronger doses.

2. There is no known medicinal property of a cigarette. It does have a psychotropic property with respect to concentration.

3. There is no known lethal dose of marijuana. You can administer nicotine or alcohol to a person in quantity and kill them with it.

3. (a) While a medical user is going to smoke more (Here I am taking your question to refer to recreational use not the subject of this legislation). It is normal for a recreational user to smoke far less marijuana than a cigarette user smokes cigarettes. No such thing as a “pack-a-day” user in any community I know of. The quantity affects the damage done to the lungs.

3.(b) The medical user smoking enough to get therapeutic effects is going to be more at risk for long term lung damage. This is a trade-off he/she has to take on board with their MD, not to be decided by legislation.

4. The Greens never advocated making cigarette smoking completely illegal. New Zealand does not need another black-market drug feeding the gangs.

5. Greens advocate harm-minimization as a policy. Oddly this is supported by that notable bunch of left wingers at Cato. http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080

6. WTF is the government doing getting mixed up in medical decisions? Why is Cannabis impossible to permit when the MD can prescribe Morphine for pain but with more side effects and risk of addiction? It seems clear to ME that the problem is that someone is desperately afraid that someone else might actually enjoy themselves. Blue-nosed hypocritical governmental busybodies.

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 2:27pm
sbk

As with Drug testing in the workplace (becoming almost standard procedure in some industries),so should it be with those receiving benefits,if only to ensure that any monies given to them is actually used for the purpose intended.
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July 1, 2009 2:30pm
big bruv

A very interesting (and somewhat evasive) answer from Chris Finlayson to a question posed by the Labour MP for Maori affairs.

I cannot remember the exact nature of the question but the gist of it was “Will Maori own the seabed and foreshore when the govt repeals the bill”, from the answer given by Finlayson it is clear that Neville Key is happy to give away the rights of ALL Kiwi’s to appease the apartheid party’s racist call for foreshore and seabed ownership.

Given Neville Key’s back down (lie) on tax cuts, his back down (lie) on getting tough on bludgers and his back down (lie) on the smacking referendum coupled with his gutless appeasement of the apartheid party I suspect (and hope) that his time as PM will be brief.
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July 1, 2009 2:32pm
AG

bjchip,

That was a dangerously reasonable and well argued comment. I am concerned you are raising the bar to a level that will exclude 99% of commentators here. Please desist from such behaviour in the future.
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July 1, 2009 2:33pm
Ryan Sproull

bjchip,

So is your face.
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July 1, 2009 2:38pm
big bruv

BJ

“Please provide a reason WHY the medical marijuana bill should be defeated.”

Apart from the long list of reasons posted by other contributors a very good reason would be that the vast majority of the public DO NOT want it.
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July 1, 2009 2:41pm
Jack5

Big Bruv in your 2.3 post are you saying that Maori are claiming right to all the seabed — to the whole vast economic zone?
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July 1, 2009 2:45pm
bjchip

Greens Drug Policy

http://www.greens.org.nz/policy/summary/drugs

The lost-motivation argument might be a good one if I had not watched the “habitual users” get good grades and go on to medical school. It IS a problem for some people. Much as Alcohol is a problem for some people. The differences in effect on others are pretty striking, as is the ease of putting it behind you. You are describing psychological addiction and people subject to that systematic self-destruction are going to do it with whatever substance is available to them. The underlying cause is not the drug but the individual.

I don’t claim, nor do the Greens claim, that any drug is completely benign. The mythology around marijuana however, goes way beyond anything rational. I suggest looking at the timing of it becoming illegal and think about the lies told in the “reefer madness” hysteria then. We showed that one at my Uni in the 70’s for comic relief. The problem is that there are some very strong prejudices in place, built up over years of falsehoods from the state. Look to the decriminalization in Portugal to see the difference between the effects of prohibition and harm-reduction policies. Consider the gang’s dependence on illegal drugs for income.

This is a first baby step. I personally think we could do much better, but the question today is purely medical.

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 2:45pm
bjchip

Thank you BB.. that was actually a good argument, though it is a horrible reason.

The majority is allowed to be wrong about many things and wind up being overruled by legal and moral truth.

It happens all the time. The majority is not in general, permitted or morally justified in making laws that discriminate against a minority. That’s true in almost any functional democracy and is built into things like the US Constitution. There are limits to what the majority is allowed to do. In this case the majority (if there IS such a majority and I think you might be surprised if it were put to a referendum) is demanding that its ill-informed views about a drug be placed ahead of medical knowledge, the doctor-patient relationship and the health of people who are sick.

I repeat this question in simpler terms. WTF gives the state the right to interfere with effective medical treatments?

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 2:57pm
philu

“…# sbk (92) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 0 Says:
July 1st, 2009 at 2:30 pm

As with Drug testing in the workplace (becoming almost standard procedure in some industries),so should it be with those receiving benefits,if only to ensure that any monies given to them is actually used for the purpose intended..”

an excellent argument there sbk..

..in favor of allowing a person to legally grow-their-own..

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 2:58pm
Jack5

bjchip at 2.56 posted: ” …WTF gives the state the right to interfere with effective medical treatments?”

So cough mixtures should again be able to contain heroin, and it’s wrong to seek changes in other pharmaceuticals that can be a source of ingredients for making P?

On your argument, people shouldn’t be able to question medical use of electric shock treatment either.

BJ talks of the myths and mania (reefer madness) that have surrounded or still surround marijuana use. The other side of this coin is the near-cult based on marijuana use. Look at its use in the religion Nandor T. follows, for example. And the celebration of marijuana by the beat poets and writers.

Just because some medical students use marijuana doesn’t make it right. They carve up corpses too, and that’s not something you want everyone along the block able to take up as a hobby. Also, how long does it stay in the smoker’s system? Would you want your brain surgery performed by a scalpel wielder who was puffing to the early hours of the morning before your operation?

Then there is the question of marijuana’s interaction with other drugs, and the effect it seems to have on increasing incidence of schizophrenia.

Perhaps its as bad as tobacco after all.
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July 1, 2009 3:14pm
sbk

..in favor of allowing a person to legally grow-their-own.. No.!

But think of all those pesky grow lights Phil.Not sure if the greens would approve.Would need another dam juat to power them.
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July 1, 2009 3:17pm
bjchip

If you could use Cannabis to create a potent, addictive and potentially lethal substance I might be more inclined to see your point Jack5. You can’t. That is however, the case with a cough medicine containing heroin and the pseudo-ephedrine in a cough mixture… which I note is NOT illegal for the MD to prescribe.

Nor is the argument about the clinical use of electro-shock. That one is up to the medical profession and while it is legal to use, it isn’t notably addictive. So so so….

We delve into the recreational and religious uses then…

I haven’t discussed religious issues. I am a godless atheist and have little truck with it. However, if someone wants to celebrate some religious ritual with a substance that does less damage than other legal substances I have to wonder what the issue is. Why is the state SO keen to interfere with this one? That’s a REAL question.

Then we have the backwards-relevance of what medical students do or don’t do. The point was whether the Marijuana affects the ability of people to be motivated and do well at school or work. The fact that it did not affect the competitive ability or drive of pre-med students at one of the more difficult schools in the country shows that this is not a significant issue, at least for more mature users who have already got a goal. To then work backwards from the idea that they also carve cadavers and this is not generally desirable so pot smoking is not generally desirable is a failure of basic logic.

I addressed the “schizophrenia” issue previously. Did you understand the genetic interaction? As the current science understands it a small minority of people is at greater risk.

I don’t expect the scalpel wielder to be stoned or drunk or sleepless before the surgery. Nor is that permissible for any other critical occupation. Operating under the influence is called malpractice. It isn’t a reason to keep the law we have.

Finally as bad as tobacco is, and without any redeeming features at all, it IS legal. What business does the state have interfering with our individual rights this way?

Particularly when it could be regulated and taxed and the state, rather than the gangs would get the money and be able to reduce other taxes or pay for more services???

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 3:50pm
bjchip

Nice one SBK 🙂 I think we’d have to grow it outdoors. Something new for our farmers to plant and profit from.
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July 1, 2009 3:51pm
bjchip

What you gave Jack5 was a reason the state MIGHT be inclined to interfere with an “effective medical treatment” the heroin and pseudo-ephedrine can be precursor chemicals. That gives the state a reason, but it is a reason that doesn’t apply to Cannabis… and which doesn’t cause pseudo-ephedrine to be left off the list of drugs that an MD can use.

I WOULD argue that if there was credible medical evidence that heroin in cough syrup was as effective or more effective than anything else for something, it should be capable of being prescribed by the MD. That isn’t I think, the case.

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 3:59pm
big bruv

BJ

“I repeat this question in simpler terms. WTF gives the state the right to interfere with effective medical treatments? ”

First of all you are really stretching it by calling dope an “effective medical treatment”, there are mountains of evidence that would not support your assertion.
Secondly, I would not have thought that you would have an issue with the actions of the state, after all, your party is the one that does not trust us to raise our own kids as we see fit.
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July 1, 2009 4:05pm
Paul Marsden

Nookin (83) Vote: 9 0 Says:

July 1st, 2009 at 9:32 am
I had to check the date today. After watching Breakfast today where one of our esteemed academics advancied the proposition that parents should have one vote for themselves and one vote for each child under 18 I thought we were back on April 1. Just think, Macsyna King would have had 4 votes

Not to mention yet another foreigner been paid for by my taxes, to dream-up such utter, and contemptuous nonsense. Where do these morons come from FFS??
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July 1, 2009 4:10pm
RightNow

bjchip, the various research on the ‘schizophrenia’ issue points to the risk of developing schizophrenia for regular cannabis users being up to 10 times higher than non-users. The research actually shows that someone who already has the genetic disposition to developing schizophrenia is up to 10 times more likely to develop it if they are a regular marijuana user. As an example if someone with the genetic trait can be said to have a 6% chance of developing schizophrenia, then that increases up to a 60% chance if they use cannabis regularly (which they define as 1 joint per day)

We are aware already of the problems with tobacco and alcohol. These problems are not a justification to legalise marijuana on the basis that it is less harmful. Rather they are a warning as to what may happen if you do legalise it. Think who stands to profit from it? Tobacco companies already have plans for production should it be legalised. Let big business get involved in marijuana distribution and the gangs will look like amateurs.
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July 1, 2009 4:11pm
Jack5

BJ: Are you saying that marijuana should be treated like alcohol? That is regulated and taxed by the State?

I guess there are similarities in health danger, in that some people seem more genetically prone to alcoholism than others. This may or may not be the cause for greater alcohol problems among groups of people such as Scots and Irish, Russians and Scandinavians, North American indigneous tribes, and perhaps even Polynesians. Also the low incidence of such problems in people such as the Chinese.

However, is there any proof that alcohol may cause schizophrenia in some genetically susceptible people?

Marijuana also provides some of the health drawbacks that tobacco does, such as effects on lungs.

Additionally, there are also problems detecting those under the influence of marijuana compared with those under the influence of alcohol.

And also I’m not convinced that marijuana is a mere frequent habit of the social misfits who bludge on society rather than a cause of their dull, lacklustre, and ultimately destructive lifestyles.

Both marijuana and alcohol seem like the mass-controlling soma of Aldous Huxley’s famous novel. Why champion this bloody weed marijuana?
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July 1, 2009 4:13pm
MyNameIsJack

looks like Hoyts will be the next business to fall over in NZ.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10581882

Why do they keep recycling these idiots?
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July 1, 2009 4:23pm
bjchip

Really? Mountains of evidence? Where is this evidence?

Does it or does it not effectively manage Glaucoma?

Does it or does it NOT actually assist people with nausea during chemotherapy?

Those are just for starters. It actually has more than a dozen additional uses.

You go out into the wide world BB and find me some evidence against its effectiveness. You may have noticed in the past that I tend to watch for facts and science, not assertions and opinions. I haven’t changed just because I came here for a visit.

The medical case clear enough that even these folks support the bill –

http://www.nzdf.org.nz/cannabis

Not particularly keen on drugs of any sort but they came out for it… because it makes SENSE.

Harm minimization and less state intervention in this aspect of our lives and decriminalization work. It is a Libertarian issue. Real communists have problems with this stuff. More evidence that your view of the Green party is not quite true to the reality. On this issue Green policy aligns very well with Libertarians.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080

As to my affiliation with the Greens. IF you had been paying attention, you might have noticed that I argue with them on some occasions and the most notable recent row had to do with S59. Which was not a GREEN bill, it was a private-members bill. We did not get to vote on it… or vet it in any way whatsoever. I have the same right to have “issues” with the actions of the state as you do BB… and you would not be bringing THIS up if you had a real argument to offer.

respectfully
BJ
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July 1, 2009 4:29pm
philu

big bruv..

this link will answer your questions about the healing properties of cannabis..

..(the list of proven benefits/treatments is surprisingly long..)

i have much more evidence under ‘medical marijuana’ at whoar..

..but this is a good start..

http://whoar.co.nz/2008/marijuana-is-real-medicine/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 4:42pm
bjchip

Jack5

Yes.. you got it correctly. Regulated and taxed by the state.

The harm profiles of Marijuana and Alcohol are not that greatly different… they ARE different but the swings and roundabouts seem to bring them to something like parity. Alcohol users can be PHYSICALLY addicted to their drug and they build up a tolerance for it as well. Liver damage is a pretty common result. Hallucinations and Not true of Cannabis.

A cop I once knew told me he’d rather arrest a pothead than a drunk any time at all. Much easier to talk to, much less likely to puke on the seat, much less likely to get aggravated and violent. Those were his reasons.

People who get chronically drunk are likely to have mental-health problems. The question of causation is as difficult there as it is with cannabis. Always vexed is the question of causation. The Alcoholic can reach a state of dementia that is no better than schizophrenia.

And also I’m not convinced that marijuana is a mere frequent habit of the social misfits who bludge on society rather than a cause of their dull, lacklustre, and ultimately destructive lifestyles.

Both marijuana and alcohol seem like the mass-controlling soma of Aldous Huxley’s famous novel. Why champion this bloody weed marijuana?

Yeah… there is that. The question for the society as a whole is, can we find something better for these people to be doing? That’s a whole other issue. If people have real dreams and hopes for the future they seldom turn to dreams spawned by subtle chemicals. If they feel hopeless… ?

We’ve addressed the health effects of smoking marijuana… As I understand it can be had by vaporization as well or eaten and the effects are useful and less a problem for the lungs. However, the other points are that the effect of that tar and THC is different from the effect of tar and nicotine, and the quantities are vastly different. Unlikely indeed that someone will smoke enough marijuana to rival a pack-a-day smoker of cigarettes – which ARE legal.

As to detecting the influence. Alcohol gets a blood test. A Cannabis test is feasible from the same sample. Not really something I know that much about though. If someone can point me at research about detection techniques I’ll be grateful.

Thanks
BJ
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July 1, 2009 4:53pm
jarbury

Ummm.. WTF is National doing in their attacks on Phil Goff in the general parliament debate? Are they trying to hand Labour back the centre?
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July 1, 2009 4:56pm
Murray

If enough people sign up for it they can have a bloody referendum on the making all public buildings pink as far as I’m concerned toad.

THATS what a democracy is, not just the narrow range of shit that you personally agree. But what would we expect from the part of Sue Bradford.
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July 1, 2009 5:09pm
sbk

bjchip 3.51pm says

“I think we’d have to grow it outdoors”…

Dependant on climate/geography,dogs to patrol crop/patch,security guards,electric fences…etc.
As with most things not bolted down in this country,it is quite likely to be taxed by the locals.

But that wont stop people using grow lights.There will always be a market for the more potent/dangerous strains that hydro/indoor growing provides.There lies the catch 22 for the Greens.Decriminalisation or energy efficiency,cant have it both ways.
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July 1, 2009 5:16pm
joeAverage

I see wimpy i love everyone EVERYBODY Johnboy key is giving NZ to the moari, fuck put a banker in charge and the nerd key will give it away, go john wimpy key what a give away tooser, wait to pay to walk on a beach $40 BRO or some dak, the bro will charge and charge , and remember key( A WIMP) a investment banker GAVE NZ AWAY fuck the turd national party , WE NEVER LEARN WITH THIS SHITARSE PARTY god NZ has been screwed so many times by national AND WE NEVER LEARN i never learn damn
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July 1, 2009 5:19pm
philu

sbk said..”..There will always be a market for the more potent..”

my experience/preference is for quality organically grown outdoor..

..that is much ‘higher’/more complex than hydro-indoors..

..and as for that myth the pot is stronger today..?..

..nah..!

..good pot has always been good pot..

..and if you knew where to find it..

..pretty much always here..

..(in fact..the quality of much of the northland pot has dropped in recent decades..

..theories are that strains are flogged out..

..and the quality control is reckless..to say the least..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 5:28pm
Father Ted

Is this a pot head thread?
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July 1, 2009 6:28pm
philu

right now said..

“..bjchip, the various research on the ’schizophrenia’ issue points to the risk of developing schizophrenia for regular cannabis users being up to 10 times higher than non-users..”

this is a serious concern..and is one often raised..

..this link (recent research in britain) should disabuse you of those concerns..

..it also..using historical testing-results..lays to rest that ‘pot is much stronger now’ myth..

http://whoar.co.nz/2007/the-new-batch-of-lies-that-are-told-about-cannabisthe-current-big-one-being-trotted-outis-how-cannabis-is-now-20-25-times-stronger-than-it-used-to-be/

if you have any other questions/concerns..just ask..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 6:46pm
big bruv

This is kinda fun!, watching Phool get his hopes up only for those hopes to be dashed once again.
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July 1, 2009 6:57pm
philu

big bruv..f.y.i..

..the new zealand drug foundation has also come out in support of medical marijuana..

..they take the compassionate view..

..and note that this is a different issue from decriminalisation/legalisation..

http://www.nzdf.org.nz/media-medical-cannabis-jul06

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 7:03pm
philu

ahem..!..apologies for duplicating the new zealand drug foundation link from b.j. chip..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 7:09pm
big bruv

BJ

First of all let me say that you can take your “respect” and shove it up your arse, while you are at it you can take your superior attitude and put that in the same place.

My perception of the Greens is spot on, most of them are control freaks, most of them are duplicitous bastards who use various causes to gain support then drop those same causes like a hot coal when they have been elected.
Medical marijuana and animal rights are just two of those causes, of course the major cause they drop once elected are the causes that has anything to do with our environment.

The Greens are nothing more than the Alliance in drag, its Parliamentary members care little about the environment and more about so called social justice, hell, I even watched that stupid woman Bradford having a crack at the govt today for having the temerity to find long term dole bludgers some work!

On the issue of medical marijuana, I could not give a shit who is supporting it, I could not care how many libertarians want it to be legalised as they are even less of a political force than the Greens (I note that a large number of the bastards have infested the ACT party but that is a discussion for another day)
I also know that there is indeed a mountain of evidence out there that shows how harmful it can be, and guess what, a part of me just does not like the idea of a whole bunch of dope heads like Phool running around smoking the crap in public.

The reality is that no political party is ever going to make it legal and nor should they.
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July 1, 2009 7:24pm
philu

“..I also know that there is indeed a mountain of evidence out there that shows how harmful it can be,.”

big bruv..

cd you provide some links/evidence to back that assertion..?

..as i have followed this issue reasonably closely for some time..

..and have found a dearth of such/any evidence..proving such an assertion..

..if you are able to prove me wrong..i would be happy to read any links you could provide..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 7:42pm
big bruv

Phool

Every single day at least ten people including me prove you wrong, just how much punishment are you willing to take?

Seriously, why do you keep pushing this barrow and why on earth would you choose to push that barrow here of all places?

You spend an extraordinary amount of time attempting to wind up some of the contributors here by boasting about the money you steal from us, you avoid answering any reasonable question posed by many of those same contributors yet you still have the cheek to expect those same people to have a rational debate with you on the one issue that YOU care about.

…eh!….

….it, simply ain’t going to happen……

…..eh…..
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July 1, 2009 7:58pm
philu

oohh..!..reid..!..my tongue is bleeding..!

jonothan coleman is in parliament repeating those false assertions around schitzophrenia..

..and this beauty..

..”cannabis smoke is ten times worse for you than tobacco smoke..”

whoar..!

..and he is a ‘doctor’..?

..whoar..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 8:10pm
philu

um..!..are you unable to provide even one link/shred of evidence..?..

..big bruv..?

(surely you want to prove your ‘case’..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 8:13pm
philu

wow..!..now the other national ‘doctor’..paul hutchison…is just telling the biggest porkies..

..denying the existance of any/all evidence of pain relief from cannabis..(!)

..(both these national party mp’s are just denying pain relief for suffering new zealanders..

..and they are both doctors..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 1, 2009 8:23pm

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