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July 17, 2009 7:58am by David Farrar

General Debate 17 July 2009

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General Debate

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philu

the hysterical over-reaction to a raft of good prison-ideas from the chief justice..

(ideas now confirmed as eminently worthy in this herald editorial)..

..only confirms how out of touch this government is with the problems we face..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/new-zealand-herald-editorial-chief-justices-ideas-deserve-govt-attention/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 17, 2009 8:13am
Murray

Thread fucked, get us a replacement.
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July 17, 2009 8:19am
Inventory2

Be fair Murray – doesn’t Phil know a bit about incarceration?
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July 17, 2009 8:30am
Cerium

I think stirring up this prison debate was a good thing. Don’t see anything wrong with the chief justice doing this, she is not trying to make policy, she is highlighting a major problem.

If we keep going on the “more, longer” imprisonment route we will need another large prison built every year. Imprisonment rates have increased substantially over the past decade – has it fixed crime?
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July 17, 2009 8:33am
philu

you’re being a bit harsh on yourself there.muzza..

hey..!..here’s a thought..!

..why not try to engage on the arguments raised by the chief justice..(not me..eh..?..)..?

..what is wrong with the idea of emptying our jails of the low-level non-violent criminals..?

..and making such ‘offenders’ do community work as their sentences..?

..i mean..ffs..!..in america..one of the biggest supporters of the lock-em-up/more prisons school of thought..

..is the prison warders union..(for obvious reasons of self-interest/empire-building..

..whereas here..our union is going..’um..!..this..isn’t working..we have to do this differently..

..and aside from the hysterics who lurk here..

..who would disagree with both cutting our horrendous justice-bill..and obviating the need to even consider ‘container-cells’..?

..you lot really are marginalised..eh..?

..you may be in government for the moment..

..but each week..as the numbers of those really hurting escalates..and with no end to that in sight..

..and key continuing to claim his ‘hands are tied’..(by the international bakers/credit agencies)..(!)

..this excuse for inaction has as much gravitas as his hapless ‘food safety’ minister..claiming her hands were tied..

..’cos she didn’t want to upset the aussies..

..what have we elected here..?

..and what the fuck has happened to our autonomy..?

..is there anyone who dosen’t ‘own’ us..?

oh..!..that’s right..

..key talked-tough..to nauru..wasn’t it..?

..my bad..!..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 17, 2009 8:39am
senzafine

Imprisonment rates have increased substantially over the past decade – has it fixed crime?

Nothing Will fix crime.

However, I get the gut feeling that releasing people early would have a negative impact on crime over say, keeping them locked up?
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July 17, 2009 8:39am
mickysavage

Phil raises a good point.

The prison system is not working.

The lock em up and throw away the key approach adopted over the past couple of decades has only made the prison muster list grow longer and longer.

And it does not work. The rate of reincarceration is horrendous. If you had a car that continuously broke down for the same problem you would redesign it. And we should do the same with our prison system. What we need to try is some namby pamby wet bus ticket liberalism.

Sian Elias was brave in stating the bleeding obvious but our leaders ought to listen to her rather than abuse her.
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July 17, 2009 8:42am
philu

(heh..!..)..’bakers’..should read as ‘bankers’..but you knew that..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 17, 2009 8:43am
Cerium

I know nothing will “fix” crime, but that seems to be what many people want, for the government/police to fix crime and to do and spend less money at the same time.

Elias” “If we are not to lurch from one increasingly punitive and expensive reaction to another, we all need to take responsibility for understanding the options.”

Gut feelings, especially gutsfull feelings that shout for the easy “fix”, lock them up and throw away the key, may or may not be the right option. It seems to me to be a bit like the trash heap at the bottom of the cliff. A bloody expensive and not very effective trash heap.
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July 17, 2009 8:45am
starboard

..whore and savage…go to your respective kitchens , boil the jug and make yourselves a large mug of “Shut the fuck up “…
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July 17, 2009 8:50am
Cerium

starboard, try reading the editorial, here is a whoarless link if it makes you more comfortable using it…
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10584971

Power jumped in with a reasonable response if he was contesting another politician, but Elias has raised some very worthwhile issues in a balanced way. Power could do with having a decent look at what she was aiming at.
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July 17, 2009 8:59am
philu

“..# Inventory2 (3290) Vote: Add rating 2 Subtract rating 1 Says:
July 17th, 2009 at 8:30 am

Be fair Murray – doesn’t Phil know a bit about incarceration?..”

inventory is referring to a sentence i did ..(armed-robbery..for morphine..i had some narcotics-issues..)..a couple of decades ago..

..where i passed thru mt eden..paremoremo..prison camps..

..and the lasting impressions i took away from that..re crime-punishment/’justice’..

..were several..

..one was how uneducated/illiterate most prisoners are..(do i need to cite ‘solutions’..?..isn’t it bleeding obvious..?…)

..how most prisoners are from the lower/working class..

..how crazy it is to lock people in jail for cannabis/drug-offences/victimless crimes..(do i really need to ‘make that case’..?..again..?..)

..and how those prisoners were/are fed a diet of absolute crap…

..how the ‘justice’ system did absolutely nothing to prepare any inmates to return to a life of no criime..

..how prisoners..upon release..were tipped out..no housing..no job..and their pittance jail-earnings..(from the likes of assembling pegs..)

..in their pockets..

..no food..no shelter..no employment..no legal options..

..is it rocket science to say what happens next..?

..my ‘solutions’..?

..follow the prescriptions offered by the chief-justice/the prisoners union..

..and reevaluate..from top to bottom..how we ‘do things’..

..(and we don’t have to reinvent the wheel..overseas models..in low-incarceration countries..abound..)

..we must turn around our incarceration rate..

..we must educate/train those in there..from basic literacies..to job-training..(um..!..’green-ecomy’..?..lot’s of ‘new skills’/new economy there..eh..?)

..and we must get one of the basics right..

..we all kow that a crap diet turns out crap people..

..we must follow the dictates of that american state official..who has ordered..that by a certain date..

..all prisoners must be fed a healthy/’good’ diet..

..what we do now does not work..and has never worked..

..is it not madness to continue even further down this path of folly..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 17, 2009 9:05am
senzafine

Gut feelings, especially gutsfull feelings that shout for the easy “fix”, lock them up and throw away the key, may or may not be the right option. It seems to me to be a bit like the trash heap at the bottom of the cliff. A bloody expensive and not very effective trash heap.

And yet the option that was mooted, was to move that trash back into the community, where its free to blow about and pollute.
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July 17, 2009 9:06am
senzafine

..how crazy it is to lock people in jail for cannabis/drug-offences/victimless crimes..(do i really need to ‘make that case’..?..again..?..)

Being a recovered drug addict myself phool, i can quite happily and factually say that drug crimes are NOT victimless.
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July 17, 2009 9:09am
Cerium

The option was mooted that some of the trash was recyclable.
And others could be repaired rather than just thrown away.
And if others were kept in good working condition they could do more good for themselves and the community by not being put away to rust.
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July 17, 2009 9:10am
Tauhei Notts

Could somebody get Cactus Kate to write on the BNZ tax case.
Her comments will be worth more than the total written by the main stream media, times ten.
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July 17, 2009 9:12am
reid

Nothing Will fix crime.

Nah that’s bull.

The causes of crime is not rocket science. Its root cause is lack of respect and anger.

Something that hasn’t been tried is having a summit with everybody – offenders, criminologists, barristers, judges, prison wardens, victims, police. Task them to come up with a prevention strategy and then implement it.

Crime is always looked at as an either/or – either you’re too soft or you’re too hard. Why can’t we combine both strategies? Sometimes you take the soft approach and other times the hard. The issue is, the correct strategy depends not on the nature of the crime but on the nature of the offender. And that means you don’t treat people equally.

Since nothing else is working however, why not take off the blindfold and try that approach?
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July 17, 2009 9:14am
starboard

referring to a sentence i did ..(armed-robbery..for morphine..i had some narcotics-issues..

..and what about the victim asshole..who did you hold up? How are they ? How are they coping ? Thats right whore…no one knows…they have been forgotten…and all the while you been suckin on the public tit year after year?…asshole…
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July 17, 2009 9:16am
Ryan Sproull

Yes, how about we don’t treat crime as magic, but rather treat it as an effect that has causes, the same way we treat weather, engine faults, solar eclipses and chicken pox?
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July 17, 2009 9:18am
Murray

I knew your were doped up dickhead phool, I was unware your were just plain criminal scum.

Well done, you have achieved what I thought impossible, I think less of you than I did before.

It does rather alter the issue of you habit of bitching that people are threatening you when you’re the one with a history of armed violence though.

Ever thought of just shutting the fuck up for bit?
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July 17, 2009 9:21am
Chthoniid

And for a quick break from it all

Male Californian Quail
http://chthoniid.zenfolio.com/img/v1/p537711574-5.jpg

Back to my coffee and usual morning mayhem 😉
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July 17, 2009 9:24am
NOt1tocommentoften

Murray – given that philu has actually contributed to this discussion and you’ve done nothing but bulk and criticise and add comment that does little for anyone – how about you shut the fuck up. It’s irrelevant to us all whether or not you like Philu. Discuss something that matters and keep these threads free of your own useless comments.
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July 17, 2009 9:27am
petal

Just a question, hands up those of you that give philu posts a thumbs down WITHOUT EVEN READING them?

(hand up)

It’s childish, I know, but if he used 98% less fullstops, I would stop.
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July 17, 2009 9:28am
Murray

Well duh petal.

Who the hell CAN read his link whoring self invloved drivel anyway. Bit of Clayton weatherston sydrom going on by the look of it. No remorse, not my fault, its all about me.

Just like Weatherston he doesn’t know the time to shut up passed some time ago.
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July 17, 2009 9:30am
big bruv

Phools comments are nothing more than the usual left wing “oh the poor criminal” crap.

Have a read of what he has to say (yes I know it is painful) and you will see that there is no mention of the crimes these low life commit, according the the drug fucked wreck it is all the fault of the class system.

It does not even register to losers like Phool that the reason these vermin are locked up in the first place is because the broke the law.

I like the fact that we lock up crims, I like the fact that society is protected from scum, the only down side is that we let the bastards out at all.
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July 17, 2009 9:32am
hj

Chirs Laidlaw had a prisoner and a (sympathetic) lawyer discussing life in prison. This guy said he has to go back from time to time for a “catch up” he says for him it is like “cheers…. you know that TV show”.
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July 17, 2009 9:33am
bearhunter

Cheers Chthoniid, as ever a great shot. The grass colour is amazing.

@ Phil: How can you describe drug crime as “victimless” a few lines after admitting drug-related armed robbery? Is armed robbery “victimless” too?
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July 17, 2009 9:34am
Murray

Tell you what I’ll come threaten you with a weapon and we’ll if you feel more or less like a victim shall we?

Queue hystercial squeals of hes threatening me.

Meh.
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July 17, 2009 9:35am
Cerium

“I like the fact that we lock up crims, I like the fact that society is protected from scum, the only down side is that we let the bastards out at all.”

Are you talking about all crims? Anyone sentenced? Are they all “scum”?
Or could it be that some of them have made mistakes, bad choice/s, but could grow up and be reasonable citizens?
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July 17, 2009 9:38am
NOt1tocommentoften

Murray – I don’t feel threatened by you. Not physically and certainly not intellectually. Comments like this do nothing but point to your inability to look at a situation rationally or look at evidence before reaching your views. How about approaching an issue with your brain, rather than your fists. It’s incredibly stimulating….
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July 17, 2009 9:40am
stephen

Back to my coffee and usual morning mayhem

Send those poachers a grenade for me k thanx
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July 17, 2009 9:42am
sbk

FFS.. “most inmates” have been “BEFORE THE COURTS NUMEROUS TIMES” before even given consideration for a custodial sentence.So what makes people think that keeping these poor lost souls(Gag) at large or given early release is going make any difference.
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July 17, 2009 9:43am
philu

my drug-crime was not victim-free..most are..

(f.w.i.w..nobody was ‘hurt’ in my crime..)

..and most ‘drug-criminals’ are consenting adults..

..funny that..eh..?

..and also kinda funny how ..when push comes to shove..the anti-nanny-state-crew..are so nanny-state..on so much..

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 17, 2009 9:44am
Cerium

“Just a question, hands up those of you that give philu posts a thumbs”

I don’t because I don’t like to encourage him. I sometimes read his shorter posts but mostly skip because it’s too hard to comprehend. Pity – like redbaiter’s posts there are glimpses of intelligence amongst the mess.
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July 17, 2009 9:47am
3-coil

When we recently had the differing messages from Christine Rankin and the Families Commission (when she was appointed) the resident lefties all bleated that the inconsistent advocacy meant it was impossible for Rankin to continue in that role.

Now that Sian Elias has broken ranks and is suggesting we let the convicts walk free, will they likewise scream that Elias cannot continue in her current role? They’ve made no such calls so far – why the double-standard?
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July 17, 2009 10:00am
Inventory2

Phil – armed robbery is, as you say, not a victimless crime. Have you ever sought your victim out to make amends?
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July 17, 2009 10:01am
big bruv

Oh how silly of us!.

Phool is right, we are not victims at all, when our homes are broken into, property stolen, the house trashed we are not victims.

The poor druggie is simply doing what he must to feed his habit, the junkie is the one we should feel sorry for.
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July 17, 2009 10:16am
Cerium

3-coil, Rankin has tried to actively promote a policy that differs from the commissions position, Elias raised points she things merit public discussion without any suggestion she will not continuing working withing the law and judicial guidelines.

If Elias had been an active member of Sensible Sentencing and then was appointed as Chiif Justice it would have justifiably raised eyebrows.
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July 17, 2009 10:16am
senzafine

(f.w.i.w..nobody was ‘hurt’ in my crime..)

Oh, Really?

I take it you haven’t spent any time around someone thats had a shotgun shoved in their face while the person at the other end is demanding money, threatning death and generally just being Vile.

I have. And i can tell you right now that such actions have long lasting effects on people. People will carry those scars to their grave.

I really do hope you have made peace with your victim Phil. And that your Victim has also made peace with you. Otherwise? You are nothing more than a worthless piece of scum.
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July 17, 2009 10:42am
wreck1080

NZ’s crime rate is leaping due to failed social engineeering programmes (see anti smacking,banning of corporal punishment etc), increasingly addictive drugs, welfare reliance, and poor immigration policies. Police stats will tell you crime is dropping but we all know that is a fudge.

Labour has to shoulder a large part of the blame for this.

Now leftist social policies have failed and as a result our prisons are overflowing. So, the lefties solution? Release the rapists, thieves and murderers early.

I say no!! I want these people to serve full sentences for their crimes. Rehabilitation bullshit. A car thief in jail is a car thief who cannot steal my car. A violent offender in jail is a violent offender who will not bash me as I walk along the street.

So,double the number of prison beds. Keep these scum out of my face. I’ll pay an extra percentage of tax for this – although, I suspect the drop in insurance , hospital and police costs will more than compensate.
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July 17, 2009 10:47am
Cerium

“Labour has to shoulder a large part of the blame for this. ”
Yeah, it’s not the crims’ faults is it. Nor their families faults. Nor their communities faults.
We are all just victims of the government that we don’t like.

BTW, once a car thief has been jailed once, when they get out they are less likely to get a job, more likely to blame the government for their situation, and more likely to steal again to survive. That’s one reason why diversions and community sentences can help reduce recidivist crime.
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July 17, 2009 10:57am
Ryan Sproull

So, the lefties solution? Release the rapists, thieves and murderers early.

Sorry, who suggested releasing rapists and murderers?
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July 17, 2009 10:58am
wreck1080

Ultimately it is the crims fault. However, government policies do have a large impact on crime rates.

eg, a family on the dole will commit more crime than one not on the dole. Cerium, ask yourself why.

Ryan, haven’t you seen the lefty judge the other day advocating releasing of prisoners?
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July 17, 2009 11:08am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, haven’t you seen the lefty judge the other day advocating releasing of prisoners?

Yes, but I assumed she meant non-violent offenders and smaller crimes, rather than murderers and rapists.
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July 17, 2009 11:09am
Murray

NOt1 this is general debate thread. So have yourself a slice of get fucked pie pal.

Good to see you sticking up for armed drug abusing offenders rights though. Its a shit job but someone has to be stupid enough to do it.
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July 17, 2009 11:14am
aardvark

DPF ought to be pissed off — NBR is now charging for what it considers to be “premium” content.

DPF’s column is still free.

What are they trying to say? 🙂

I blogged about Barry Coleman’s idiotic comments (he’s doing a Rupert Murdoch) regarding bloggers (yet he still has DPF’s blog online) and his backwards-looking attitude to making money out of his online presence.

If you want to voice an opinion, you can do it here, on the NBR website or you know where.
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July 17, 2009 11:18am
RKBee

Outsource the Prisoners along with Phil…. Problem Solved.

Sorry Phil couldn’t help myself..
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July 17, 2009 11:18am
Cerium

“a family on the dole will commit more crime than one not on the dole”
– if they can’t get the dole and they can’t get a job (especially hard for lower educated ex prisoners) and they don’t have any money what is likely to happen?

Elias was only suggesting rehabilitated prisoners be considered for release. Apart from reducing the prison population is gives a huge incentive for prisoners to get rehabilitated.
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July 17, 2009 11:23am
thedavincimode

Is this a breach of closure and thread protocol?? Whatever.

Calling oleander

“The following comments seem fairly typical of this blog; can we see this sort of invective as intelligent, or effective? I would have expected that rationality and self-control were minimal expectations of any individuals or groups who hoped to provide constructive leadership, or to apply necessary disciplines to foolish or destructive actions/policies espoused by others. ”

Ya got me. What I should have said is:

How can Goff lie straight in bed at night, let alone associate himself with any notion of a belief in NZ and that he is somehow either inspirational or is inspired in the best interests of this country, when he is complicit in, and in his own words, supportive of, a period during which we have seen the lowest standards of political behaviour ever in the last 40 years at least. That started with the promise by his leader to put honesty back into politics and along the way he has been a supporter of or complicit in the picture, the Doone business, the Glen business, the speeding business, Winston Peters, the train set, ACC, a cornerstone constitutional reform in removing the right of appeal to the Privy Council with no electoral mandate. He is utterly shameless about the theft of 1m bucks from taxpayers by his party and the subsequent legitimisation of that theft through retrospective legislation, and the banning of free speech in election year.

I could of course go on, and usually do, but it is a far more economic use of the language to point this out by saying:

“What a crock of shit.
What an arsehole
What a fuckwit”

So hide there with your rose-tinted memories of the nadir of NZ politics. Sneer at the people that actually find this sort of behaviour highly objectionable.

You talk of “constructive leadership” and “discipline”. Care to demonstrate some? What’s your “rational and controlled” analysis of what happened and why people should not be pissed off about all of this? Care to defend the fact that Goff went along with and was part of it. Care to explain why that Goff poster is not just utterly farcical and hypocritical? Care to defend what actually happened? Care to explain why that Government met and no doubt exceeded your “minimal expectations”. Easier to pretend it didn’t happen really isn’t it.

“I would have expected …” What, meaning you WOULD have expected but you didn’t for some reason?

Pompous twat.
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July 17, 2009 11:27am
muppet

I like that greypower – Nelson at least – is taking the initiative to try to get back the $4,000,000,000 New Zealanders were overcharged by power companies.
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July 17, 2009 11:32am
paradigm

“..one was how uneducated/illiterate most prisoners are..”
I agree it is unfortunate there was no rehabilitation. You might have learnt how to capitalise the first letter of your sentences and proper use of punctuation.

And I love how the self-righteous fuckwit thinks its bad to eat animal meat, but was an armed robber.

Riddle me this hemp breath, which is worse: eating a steak or armed robbery?
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July 17, 2009 12:42pm
kiwipolemicist

On the crime theme: what about bringing back stocks (public humiliation) for minor crimes?

http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/new-zealand-should-have-restorative-justice/
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July 17, 2009 12:50pm
Ratbiter

I mentioned once to someone who then worked for a Government Department that I read Kiwiblog, and she responded thusly: “Oh, David Farrar – I know him; He came into our office a few times. he was just like I imagined – he was short, fat and NASTY…”

This will be my final comment on Kiwiblog threads. Your loss. You will disagree, any comments of “a leftie” are usually not appreciated here whether they are made in relation to his area of professional expertise, or out of his general perspective of right and wrong.

Since National’s election victory Farrar’s blogging has become ever more obsessed with showing the Government in a good light while condemning the opposition in the most jeering fashion possible. And noticeably avoiding talking points that don’t facilitate this end. This has become a cheerleading/propaganda site, similar to The Standard. And suppressing any discussion that does not conform. (And make no mistake, the discussion here is every bit as controlled – albeit by a pack of loyal hounds rather than directly from the moderator’s keyboard.)

In consequence of this ultra-partisanship some of the better commentors now offer more rigorous and useful analysis of the issues than Farrar himself. Kiwiblog is no longer a worthwhile analysis of current NZ politics in my opinion and, therefore, no longer worth reading. I might as well watch Fox News or the Daily Show.

I have enjoyed sparring with my fellow commentors – I wish you well, and hope that continuing to blame socialism for every ill that befalls you does not diminish your enjoyment of the real (off-line) world.

[DPF: Wow how pitiful does someone have to be when they resort to weight and heights jabs. Are you like Clayton and used to wet your bed?

I’ve disagreed with and criticised the Government several dozen times since the election. I’ve criticised John Key, I’ve criticised other Ministers and slammed aspects of the byelection performance for example.
You are just so blinkered you can’t see it. And I have praised Labour on issues I agree with them on. You just seem to have a problem that we don’t let the past be rewritten or forgotten. Anyway enjoy your retirement]
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July 17, 2009 12:50pm
Cerium

“…which is worse: eating a steak or armed robbery?”

Depends on whether you are a cow or a bank teller.
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July 17, 2009 12:54pm
RKBee

Ratbiter RIP… thats half the dedate gone..
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July 17, 2009 1:20pm
Cerium

It’s a pity to see Ratbiter pissed off and pissing off. Some of the muggers might think it’s a victory, but of what?

I’m obviously well outside the gang of Farrighties, and yeah, some of the abuse and automatic opposition to anything beyond a self-limited range of ideas seems boorish and a bit pointless. But I think there is a reasonable amount of intellectual challenge here as well, much more than confining yourself to your own fanclub. DPF is openly opinionated, that’s what he does this for, but I haven’t seen any sign of him being unfair to opposing views. Sure I can find reasons to argue but that’s what forums are about.

To get a wide ranging debate you have to have a reasonable degree of freedom to express. The down side of that is you get some minds that are too closed and some mouths that are too open but that’s part of it. It’s a shame about the rudeness but it’s hard to filter, and the more that is diluted the better it should be.
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July 17, 2009 1:24pm
philu

come off it..!..dpf..

..after the election i asked how you were going to change from being a critic of government..to an apologist for government..

(..you seem to have managed the transition quite well..tho’..eh..?)

..and of course ..as ratbiter says..your coverage avoids ’embarrassing’ talking points..(and is basically ‘spin’..pure and simple..)

..the freshest/most recent example of this was of course your total ignoring of keys’ ‘the recession is over!’ comedy routine..yesterday..

..(was that his bush on the aircraft-carrier/’the war is over!’ moment..?..yagottalaff..!..eh..?..)

(surely ‘a story’..?..your p.m. /leader says ‘the recession is over!’..and its’ not within the criterea for ‘kiwiblog-coverage/news?..)

what did you feature..?

..a pic of key being cute with kids..

..how could that not be q.e.d..?

..to much/most of what ratbiter says..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 17, 2009 1:30pm
Chthoniid

stephen (2824) 1 1 Says:
July 17th, 2009 at 9:42 am

#

Back to my coffee and usual morning mayhem

Send those poachers a grenade for me k thanx

Alas, after the World-Bank “Global Tiger Initiative” launched straight into an advocacy position at the CITES Animal Committee meeting, I’m trying to curb uncharitable thoughts in that direction.

It’s already caused a bust-up with IUCN and the planned Kathmandu meeting in October looks like it will achieve nothing.

In the mean time we have three danger areas with poaching that could blow up anytime soon, and no recognition that current strategy is fueling the problem.
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July 17, 2009 1:33pm
Cerium

But philu, DPF doesn’t stop anyone else from bringing up alternate views (that I’m aware of). So I don’t see what the problem is.
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July 17, 2009 1:37pm
philu

c’mon..!..cerium..

as just one other example..

..he knows..as i know..as key etc know..

..that the american economy is totally fucked…

(the first wave of unemployed are abou to lose their (time-limite) unemployment benefits..what happens then..?..if not social unrest..?..)

..and the impacts on us are huge..

yet farrar continues to push this green-shoots bullshit..

..cos’ it excuses key ‘doing nothing’..his ‘possum in headlights’ impersonation…

..and yes..other people try to bring up the important issues..

..and the foam-flecked farrites then kick into action..

..pouring any/all abuse they like…(farrrars’ silence being all the encouragment they need..

..yet should a ‘leftie’ be ‘off-topic”..?

..well..stand well back..!..incoming demerits..!..)

bah..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 17, 2009 1:46pm
thedavincimode

magpie phil noted

“..one was how uneducated/illiterate most prisoners are..(do i need to cite ’solutions’..?..isn’t it bleeding obvious..?…)”

Seems you were in good company Phil. Is that where you did your Masters degree?
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July 17, 2009 1:53pm
gd

Tuahei Notts

Regarding the BNZ They and the other 3 Ozzie owned banks tired to turn what was in reality income on which tax was payable into capital on which is not payable and did do using transfers between themselves and their Ozzie parents to try and cover their tracks.

They started doing this in the late 90s and continued into the early 00s when the IRD tumbled them and started action.

It was always a rort a clever one but a rort. the lawyers and accountants dreamed up a fanciful scheme that had no commercial benefit to the banks but on the face of it allowed the tax avoidance.

As I have posted elsewhere it will interesting to see if any of the banks directors CEO or management take a fall.

My guess it none will because the directors knew and gave approval to the rort and any attempt to hang a lower level employee will backfire if that employee blows the whistle.

I estimate my share of the BNZs tax fraud to be around $500 that is the extra tax I paid because they didnt
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July 17, 2009 1:58pm
RKBee

“”DPF doesn’t stop anyone else from bringing up alternate views (that I’m aware of)””.

You have been unaware often Cerium… DPF often stops alternate views…
or just asks you nicely to piss off.. If he feels your view is not inline with his right wing philosophy.

You need to cut eye holes in that hood of yours.

[DPF: Try not to lie. No one has ever been told to piss off because they express a left wing view.

I probably get and tolerate more disagreement and abuse from commenters on this blog, than anyone else does.]
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July 17, 2009 2:03pm
reid

..cos’ it excuses key ‘doing nothing’..his ‘possum in headlights’ impersonation…

But what would you have Key do then, phil?

Explain nightly to everyone just precisely how serious this is and suggest we all go down to Mitre 10 and buy an Anderson Shelter?
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July 17, 2009 2:06pm
starboard

BTW, once a car thief has been jailed once, when they get out they are less likely to get a job, more likely to blame the government for their situation, and more likely to steal again to survive. That’s one reason why diversions and community sentences can help reduce recidivist crime.

..how about the lazy shitbag car thief do some study whilst in prison , maybe learn a few things ( it can be done ) turn a new leaf…show that he is willing to help himself…but no… the easy/lazy way out is to blame the world and everyone in it..woe is me…commit more crime , create more victims…DO THE CRIME… DO THE TIME ASSHOLE !
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July 17, 2009 2:06pm
Cerium

Phil, blaming DPF for all the crap in here is a bit like blaming the government for crime. How about some community responsibility. When someone tries being a blog bully remember that crap v crap=nothing but crap. Stand up to them or ignore them. If they embarrass themselves that’s their problem. Keep self respect for what you post.

We are all learning a new and evolving way of communicating. It doesn’t always work but I try to remember that whatever I post online I would be prepared to say to someone face to face. And to remember that what is posted could be retrievable forever.
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July 17, 2009 2:06pm
Ryan Sproull

Good guidelines, Cerium.
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July 17, 2009 2:07pm
stephen

Chthoniid, ta thanks.

Btw, how do you pronounce that.. ch-thon-need?
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July 17, 2009 2:08pm
reid

You have been unaware often Cerium… DPF often stops alternate views…or just asks you nicely to piss off.. If he feels your view is not inline with his right wing philosophy.

Actually RK, I think I’ve been here longer than just about every other commenter and I’ve never noticed DPF preventing anyone from saying anything they want, subject to two things:

They don’t adopt the fanatic approach: someone who won’t change their mind and won’t change the subject, and

They don’t personally abuse the host. He doesn’t seem to like that.

Lefties really seem to be quite prissy about robust debate. Personally I don’t give a fuck about giving insults or getting them, which I sometimes do when discussing Israel and 911. It doesn’t upset me in any way. Sticks and stones, you know. However, lefties seem to take it personally and I’ve never understood why. I also don’t think it changes the quality of the debate in any way either, since one is always free to make one’s point in amongst all the insults. I do however prefer to issue and receive amusing insults, I think angry commenters are just a bit silly.
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July 17, 2009 2:16pm
philu

“..But what would you have Key do then, phil?

Explain nightly to everyone just precisely how serious this is and suggest we all go down to Mitre 10 and buy an Anderson Shelter?.”

something like that/variations of that..

(certainly not ‘the recession is over’..eh..?..)

..it will have to happen sooner or later..

..and yes..the task is enormous..

..but we have no choice..

..and doing nothing..as key is doing..is not an option we actually face….

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 17, 2009 2:19pm
reid

Yeah but it’s also a confidence issue, phil.

If someone has cancer they’d probably feel a bit demoralised if the undertaker turned up and started measuring them and then the priest came in…
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July 17, 2009 2:22pm
philu

how would they feel about a ‘fake-healer’..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 17, 2009 2:24pm
thedavincimode

Stephen, best not to try, particularly if you are sitting in front of the screen or in close proximity to anyone else.
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July 17, 2009 2:27pm
philu

telling them they have ‘no cancer..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 17, 2009 2:27pm
Cerium

“Lefties really seem to be quite prissy about robust debate. ”

Is this just a wee bit of a generalisation? I get called a leftie here sometimes (although I like to think I’m a cherry picker). The reason why I come here is robust debate.

There are also some who are strongly anti-leftie who get a bit anti if someone tries to debate them.
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July 17, 2009 2:29pm
reid

It’s a total generalisation, Cerium. I like them, you see.

I love stereotyping people and putting them into pigeonholes. I do this because it makes some lefties really really mad and I laugh and laugh.

I take your point though, you’re not a lefty. Noted.
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July 17, 2009 2:33pm
Cerium

Crap, pigeonholes. They go together.

I’m not a lefty because I claim not to be? Or because I don’t mind robust debate? Or I because I don’t get really mad?
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July 17, 2009 2:41pm
Ryan Sproull

I’m a leftie, though. And I ro-bust shit up when it comes to debate.
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July 17, 2009 2:41pm
Chthoniid

Stephen- I’m not sure that anybody really knows how to pronounce chthoniid, as there aren’t any native speakers of ancient Greek left. It doesn’t really matter though how you say it, you always have to spell it out later 😉

Anyway, if I may be permitted a little bit of linking, I have blogged about the three major poaching risks facing tigers at the moment http://my.opera.com/chthoniid/blog/2009/07/17/tiger-trouble-poaching-risks And tiger farms aren’t one of them…
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July 17, 2009 2:47pm
RKBee

“”I probably get and tolerate more disagreement and abuse from commenters on this blog, than anyone else does.]””.

Yes DPF and thats why Ratbiter should stay… but the personal stuff has got to him… Lefties Ah.

You must admit though you are a National man through and through… and those National buttons have been pushed at times.

Put it this way your a National man not a John Key man.. John Key just happens to be in the Leader of the National Party.

Do what you want DPF its your site … its right wing .. you are right wing .. whats the problem.. GO KIWI BLOG.
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July 17, 2009 2:51pm
stephen

Maybe i’ll just try to say ‘photo guy’ in my head.

You refer to risks, then farms (think this was even in the herald yesterday) – you mean farms aren’t going to alleviate the risks mentioned in your post? Was mentioned in the Herald article that people ‘need’ (ugh) *wild* tiger bits…
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July 17, 2009 2:52pm
big bruv

Did anybody else see B Hussein Messiah Obama’s “first pitch” at the all star baseball game?

The man throws like a chick…lol
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July 17, 2009 2:58pm
reid

Did people boo him like they did when Cheney did it? (Snigger)
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July 17, 2009 3:02pm
alex Masterley

BB, saw it. He sucks as a pitcher. His daughters would have been embarrased. Did the US media get excited about that nooo. They got excited about his jeans instead. Unbelievable.
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July 17, 2009 3:02pm
philu

well..i mean..he was wearing mum-jeans..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 17, 2009 3:14pm
Chthoniid

Sigh, Herald piece recycled a whole bunch of made-up facts.

The cold reality is that I’m the only person in 2 years that’s done any decent research on this black-market. Which is why, I’ve the only academic publication on it in the last 2 years.

I don’t know if farms will work. But we need to discuss other options and approaches because the current strategy is letting the smugglers win. Indeed, a lot of new options need to be thrown out for discussion fast. But we’re getting more and more inertia. It’s like the captain of the Titanic refusing to change course, because he’s afraid he might hit an iceberg nobody has spotted yet. Far better to bear down on the iceberg in front of the ship.

First up, half the farm (or zoo) revenue comes from tourists. But farm-critics ignore this revenue. That makes farms look a lot less economic than they really are.
Second, with a life-span of about 15-17 years and a population base of 5000 tigers, we’ve got freezers in China (yes, I’ve inspected them) filled with dead tigers. For these bodies, the farming costs are sunk and you can release them into a market at very low marginal cost. There’s a very good chance the economics stacks up.

Third, captive-bred tigers are being stolen and butchered from zoos and farms in China. There may be a preference for wild tigers, but if there is, it’s a very weak preference. In fact, the dominate driver of demand for tiger bone is avoiding the risk of detection. So I think there’s a good chance of getting black-markets to switch to a legal alternative to avoid the criminal-risk.

I tackle some of these arguments in another conservation magazine
http://www.goodplanet.info/goodplanet/index.php/eng/Contenu/Points-de-vues/Legalise-tiger-trade-to-save-species/(theme)/1906

Apologies to anyone who wants to talk politics…
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July 17, 2009 3:16pm
MyNameIsJack

Cherie Blair has swine flu!

Let’s see how effective her crystals, feng shui and homeopathy are now.

Good luck Cherie, its die or take your medecine, you know, the REAL stuff that science does,

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25795172-5006301,00.html
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July 17, 2009 3:41pm
stephen

Apologies to anyone who wants to talk politics…

Fuck’em. Or failing that, ‘everything is political’.
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July 17, 2009 3:59pm
Offshore_Kiwi

Apologies to anyone who wants to talk politics…

How is illegal poaching not a political problem (unless you’re a tiger, of course)?
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July 17, 2009 4:05pm
big bruv

I note that the peace loving Muslims have bombed another western target in Jakarta, sadly it looks like one of the casualties might be a Kiwi.

I wonder where Bomber and all the other terrorist apologists are now?
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July 17, 2009 4:50pm
MyNameIsJack

I don’t know who bomber is, but I DO know that disagreeing with an old poof like you doesn’t make me a terrorist appologist, or anything else.

Dead kiwi is Tim Mackay, the president director of PT Holcim Indonesia.

Now, about showing similar sadness for ALL the dead and injured, not just the farnow.
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July 17, 2009 4:54pm
big bruv

Wow, even I thought it would take more than four minutes for the first terrorism apologist to show up.
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July 17, 2009 5:00pm
Banana Llama

Maybe the terrorists were smacked by their parents and they are just acting out because of it.
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July 17, 2009 5:06pm
Komata

Re the Chief Justice’s comments – a thought:

IF the lady is so keen on having these serial-malcontents put back in society, why hasn’t anyone suggested the obvious: Namely since she is so desperate to have them back in circulation, then it is only reasonable to expect that she ‘put her money where her mouth is’ and offer to have at least some of them take-up residence with her – if not in her house, then certainly on her property/s!!

Somehow, I cannot see that THAT would ever be allowed – she IS of course THE Chief Justice, and one must maintain standards!

Looking at it from that perspective, it therefore seems to me reasonable to suggest that if she ISN’T prepared to ‘follow-through’ and do as she herself has suggested to ‘solve the problem’ then she has no particular authority to say what she has. After all, actions DO speak louder than words.

As I said, just a thought . . .
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July 17, 2009 8:09pm
philu

indeed..!..indeed..!..komata..

“..just a thought’..

..and not much else..

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 17, 2009 8:13pm
big bruv

reid

“Did people boo him like they did when Cheney did it? (Snigger)”

Not yet, give the people of the USA another twelve months of socialism and I can assure you he will be booed all the way to the pitching mound and all the way back again.

The “Messiah” is already beginning to tank in the polls, a huge number of Americans are starting to feel rather pissed off that they were conned by Hussein Obama, the man will be a one term President.
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July 17, 2009 8:16pm
starboard

..whore…you havent made your mug of ” shut the fuck up yet “…you want me to come and make for you…Oxford aint it ?
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July 17, 2009 8:17pm
philu

so bruv..’socialism’ is the gifts to the financial elites..eh..?

the collapse of the american economy well may usher in a new take on socialism..

,,(esp as socialism-lite..as prctised in scandanavian countries..seems to ‘work’..eh..?

..y’know..!..high taxes/strong social support..for all..?..)

..(sales of marx/leftist-thinkers books on the likes of amazon have shown a sharp blip..

..cos..y’see bruv..

..ol’ uncle karl..predicted all this eh..?..the financial world/capitalism..’eating itself’..

..(you really should curl up with a copy of das kapital one of these winter nights there..bruv..

..get some shock of recognition into ya..!

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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July 17, 2009 8:27pm
Ryan Sproull

If anyone’s interested, I’ve written a little on market solutions to problem gambling on the new and improved Born on State Highway One – now with extra dot-com power.
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July 17, 2009 8:48pm
reid

IF the lady is so keen on having these serial-malcontents put back in society, why hasn’t anyone suggested the obvious: Namely since she is so desperate to have them back in circulation, then it is only reasonable to expect that she ‘put her money where her mouth is’ and offer to have at least some of them take-up residence with her – if not in her house, then certainly on her property/s!!

Komata, I suggested here some months ago that the Parole Boards need to house its highest risk releasees next door to its members and once those spaces are taken, next door to their immediate family.

Strangely, I haven’t heard back. Perhaps they need to house them next door to the local politicians?
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July 17, 2009 9:05pm

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