General Debate 18 June 2009

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Auberon

I see the proposed police action to cut the number of police vehicles (as it is portrayed by the media) as worrying for the Government, and potentially a deliberate, provocative action by the Police.

The decision doesn’t appear to be coherent, fully-scoped or final. It’s as though they are flying a kite, and the expected response is that the proposal seems to go directly against the aim of the Government to enhance the front-line of law enforcement. One wonders why they are discussing it now, and not later, if it is to be done, when it can be defended by judicous use of facts.

If I looked for a parallel it would be when Plunket funding was cut about a decade ago and their administration immediately said that would mean service cuts to the 24-hour phone line, rather than streamlining other aspects of the organisation. In that way they created maximum public disatisfaction, and people blamed the Government not Plunket.

The police obviously think they can get away with this, by not having someone to speak on it, or a rationale and position paper on how it can be achieved without impeding the Government’s stated objective. It does not sit well for an organisation from which we expect clearly defined actions and decisions rather than “maybes,” to say “gee, why don’t we do this?” Particularly if they think they can divert the blame, which appears to be the case at the moment.
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June 18, 2009 8:28am
peterwn

See:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10579186

“City pays twice for some footpath work”

It shows you have to be careful.

I felt embarassed some years back when a contractor billed approximately twice the tendered amount. The tender schedule contained unit rates for the various aspects of the work and the contractor was entitled to payment for the work actually done.

Someone made a mistake scaling the quantities off the plan and they were half what they should have been.

See also:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10579200

“Police and prison chiefs face legal action over Burton”

I think the private prosecutors could have a problem with the interpretation of a ‘workplace’.

For Corrections a workplace would be a prison, court cells or paddy wagon. That might let them off the hook. For the police, is their workplace the whole of NZ? It may only be cop shops.
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June 18, 2009 8:31am
mickysavage

So why did Key sack Worth?

And where is my tax cut?

[DPF: because he did and you got it on 1 April 2009 – you must be forgetful]
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June 18, 2009 8:33am
Murray

Maybe the cops should try be provocative in a different way. Sack Broad.
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June 18, 2009 8:33am
fredinthegrass

Global Warming is dead.
Climate change is real.
I know this for a fact.
In the last 10 days we have had more frosts than all of last year
where we live.
Our broadbeans, tamarillos and numerous other garden goodies
are history.
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June 18, 2009 8:34am
jcuknz

Everybody is supposed to be born with a similar brain, so why do Maori proportionately fail to gain NCEA ratings to enter University. Could it be their environment, their parents, the schools. Free entry without qualification is a sure receipy for failure and draging down of standards .. becuase unrestricted entry will surely be followed by automatic graduation.
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June 18, 2009 8:34am
jcuknz

The reduction in Police vehicle budget … instead of Holdens perhaps they should buy Panda cars .. Suzuki Swifts, et al. , perhaps.
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June 18, 2009 8:37am
petal

“Swine flu hits prison unit”

Our quarantine measures must be superb when we can’t even keep prisoners away from being exposed.
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June 18, 2009 8:43am
Ryan Sproull

Everybody is supposed to be born with a similar brain, so why do Maori proportionately fail to gain NCEA ratings to enter University. Could it be their environment, their parents, the schools. Free entry without qualification is a sure receipy for failure and draging down of standards .. becuase unrestricted entry will surely be followed by automatic graduation.

jcuknz,

It is environment – which includes many things. Lower-bar entry is not followed by automatic graduation, however. The standards for passing remain the same for all students. The idea is to address the proportionality by laying the path for a new generation to provide a different environment to their kids – one more conducive to their kids’ education.
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June 18, 2009 8:50am
david

re: police cars, rumour has it that they are just going to scrap a whole bunch of clapped out cars that cannot be replaced because when the last gummint increased the numbers of coppers, they did not increase the funding. Vehicle replacement took the hit and now there is a chunk of the fleet that is clo0se to undriveable.
If that is the case then Greg O’Connor is being somewhat mischevious with his claim that services will suffer.
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June 18, 2009 8:53am
Murray

Commies don’t want tax cuts mickey.

And you got one anyway.

You’re welcome.
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June 18, 2009 9:11am
jcuknz

Ryan .. you did not understand my point that … today there is the call for unrestricted entry for Maori and tomorrow they will be calling for automatic graduation. I think Maori should get their act together and learn the Pakeha system … that is until they become so numerous that the Pakeha has to adapt to the Maori way. I hope though that with intermarraige all will become New Zealanders and all will respect their ancestors the way I do mine as an immigrant from the UK.
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June 18, 2009 9:12am
pdm

mickeysavage.

John Key sacked Richard Worth because he had lost confidence in him.

Simple really.
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June 18, 2009 9:38am
Sam Buchanan

“.. becuase unrestricted entry will surely be followed by automatic graduation.”

Why?
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June 18, 2009 11:10am
getstaffed

Everybody is supposed to be born with a similar brain, so why do Maori proportionately fail to gain NCEA ratings to enter University.

Humans the world over have shown themselves remarkably able to rise to the expectations that others have of them. Replace the word ‘rise’ with the word ‘sink’, and hold generations of trough snuffling polititians and Maori ‘leadership’ to account and you’ll be getting close to an answer.
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June 18, 2009 11:15am
philu

any ‘green-shooters’ out there..?

read this..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/this-recession-is-very-far-from-over/

..then go and have a cuppa tea..and a wee lie-down..

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 18, 2009 11:17am
getstaffed

Sam Buchanan – because when you widen one part of a motorway you simply shift the traffic jam further up the road. ‘automatic graduation’ may be the ‘cure’ proposed to the lowering of pass rates. either that, or we could lower graduation standards and achieve the same graduation rates. which would you prefer?
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June 18, 2009 11:19am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan .. you did not understand my point that … today there is the call for unrestricted entry for Maori and tomorrow they will be calling for automatic graduation.

That’s what’s called a slippery-slope fallacy, jcuk. Lower-bar entry for identifiably disadvantaged sections of our society is a tool for making itself unnecessary – there’s good reasoning behind it. Nothing about that suggests that there’s some inevitable “automatic graduation” going to result from it.

I think Maori should get their act together and learn the Pakeha system … that is until they become so numerous that the Pakeha has to adapt to the Maori way.

I’m not sure I can imagine what you mean by “the Pakeha system” that Maori somehow don’t know, or what the alternative “Maori way” is. Maori are proportionally under-represented in education and income because the preceeding generation was proportionally under-represented in education and income. Education and income of parents has a direct positive effect on the education and income of the children. That’s true regardless of ethnicity, but partly due to the history of New Zealand, there is a lack in this identifiable ethnic group in New Zealand. Lower-bar entry is addressing that with broad strokes, but they are effective overall.

Once they are in the tertiary institutes, all students must meet the same standards in order to pass. That is not going to change.
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June 18, 2009 11:22am
Ryan Sproull

Sam Buchanan – because when you widen one part of a motorway you simply shift the traffic jam further up the road. ‘automatic graduation’ may be the ‘cure’ proposed to the lowering of pass rates. either that, or we could lower graduation standards and achieve the same graduation rates. which would you prefer?

Firstly, you assume lower pass rates. That is not necessarily a consequence. Plenty of people who did badly at high school excel at university. Further, home factors influencing doing poorly at school may not be present in young adults. Also, a moment ago you were waxing poetic about how people rise to the expectations others have of them – such as the expectations placed on students at tertiary institutes.

In answer to your question – and I know it wasn’t directed at me – I’m fine with lower pass rates if that happens to occur.
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June 18, 2009 11:26am
philu

any ‘bullshit-reasons-for-iraq-war/invasion-deniers left out there..?

hey..!..the british military establishment no longer believes the ‘fools gold’..(their quote)..

..of pre-invasion/war-justifying ‘intelligence’..

..but hey..heaps of the gibberers/frothers/carpet-chewers that lurk here will still be steadfast..

..to the bullshit..

..eh..?

..shall/should we call them ‘the true-believers’..?

..or the “true self-deluders’..?

..(maybe ‘the clingers to the bullshit’..?..ew..!..)

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/generals-go-to-war-over-iraq-inquiry/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 18, 2009 11:27am
Captain Crab

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2510505/Stunt-in-chopper-just-playing

He says “what are they going to do to us”
Put the little tosser in Boot Camp I reckon.
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June 18, 2009 11:32am
Steve

“.. becuase unrestricted entry will surely be followed by automatic graduation.”

Why?
Because automatic graduation will become yet another handout for the special people.
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June 18, 2009 11:56am
tknorriss

Ryan Sproull
Firstly, you assume lower pass rates. That is not necessarily a consequence. Plenty of people who did badly at high school excel at university.

Ryan, I marked undergraduate papers for several years while doing my post-grad approx 5 years or so ago. I can tell you that from that experience there is a helluva lot of people at Uni who shouldn’t be there. The drivel of them were producing was a million miles from the standard that I would expect should be produced at that level. University requires a type of thinking that a lot of people simply don’t have. Simply opening the flood-gates to Maori will exacerbate this problem and be detrimental to those who are simply unequipped to cope, both Maori and non-Maori.

I think that the problems in Maori education are much more deeply rooted, and is unlikely to be helped or fixed by
making it easier to get into Uni. IMO it should be made more difficult, not easier, to get into University. This higher entry standard should apply to all groups.
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June 18, 2009 11:58am
philu

and i must say..there is a certain schadenfreude to be had from the/this certainty of this denunciation of the ‘reasons for war’..

..from the top military brass..

..’cos..when i first donned full-body ‘protection’..

..and dipped my rubber-clad toe into the fetid swamp that is the rightwingers playground..called kiwiblog..

..(some 4+ years back..aahh!!!..the memories..!)

..along with the wholesale screaming at me for having the temerity to be raising my son..on a dpb..

..and for being vegan..etc etc..

..was the wholesale blood-frothed war-mongering/’kill-kill!’ from the denizens..

..of afor-mentioned ‘fetid swamp’..

..how are they feeling now..?..

..these gung-ho armchair warriors..?

..any of them that had/have any glimmer of intelligence..?

.mmm!!

..eh..?..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 18, 2009 11:59am
Ryan Sproull

I think that the problems in Maori education are much more deeply rooted, and is unlikely to be helped or fixed by making it easier to get into Uni.

Fixed, perhaps not. Helped, it could. It would have to be managed carefully. I actually hadn’t read about Pita Sharples’ suggestion when I first responded – I thought the discussion was about lower bars, not completely open gates.

IMO it should be made more difficult, not easier, to get into University. This higher entry standard should apply to all groups.

I’m inclined to agree, but that wouldn’t be a wise business decision for unis, would it?
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June 18, 2009 12:02pm
Sam Buchanan

“‘automatic graduation’ may be the ‘cure’ proposed to the lowering of pass rates. either that, or we could lower graduation standards and achieve the same graduation rates. which would you prefer?”

To a large extent I couldn’t care less – university standards seem to have been lowered ridiculously already, but I can’t see the universities making their own qualifications completely meaningless, so I’d say the threat of ‘automatic qualification’ is a red herring.
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June 18, 2009 12:03pm
Buggerlugs

A man briefly lit up a cannabis joint in Parliament before being nabbed by security yesterday.
The man lit the joint in the public gallery about 5.30pm during the second reading of the Resource Management (Climate Protection) Amendment Bill.

Spot the braincell competition.
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June 18, 2009 12:06pm
tknorriss

Ryan Sproull Fixed, perhaps not. Helped, it could. It would have to be managed carefully. I actually hadn’t read about Pita Sharples’ suggestion when I first responded – I thought the discussion was about lower bars, not completely open gates.

When I saw him on the news last night, he seemed to be talking about open slather.

The problem I have, is with anyone who is doomed to fail from the start, being let into university, Maori or non-Maori. Being lured into spending their own time and money when they have little prospect of success is dishonest and cynical on the part of those who are pushing them in that direction. Also, the impact of failure on their self-esteem is likely to put them off trying to improve themselves educationally in the future. There are many other perfectly good avenues for education out there that don’t necessarilly involve university.

The only other way around this problem, is to dumb down university so that more can “succeed”. This has been happening over recent years IMO. However, this only serves to downgrade the value of qualifications from NZ universities.

Ryan Sproull I’m inclined to agree, but that wouldn’t be a wise business decision for unis, would it?

This is the problem with the business model approach to eductation. The aim is bums on seats rather than quality of outcomes. However, given that there is a lot of resource committed to the current model, then perhaps universities need to offer the option of a polytech style of education for those who better suit that style of learning, and reserve the university level learning for those who actually have the ability. This sort of format would also offer a pathway through to higher levels of learning for those who show the necessary ability at the lower level.
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June 18, 2009 12:23pm
stu-tron

I see Mark Lundy is set to appeal now – I guess the flood gates were always goint to open after Bain got off – I’m sure the Scott Watson team are gearing back up as well. Lovely. Might as well flag building new prisons, no point – should be plenty of room after all of the new appeals are successful.
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June 18, 2009 1:17pm
transmogrifier

Open entry is a red herring, seeing as those 20 or over pretty much have open entry anyway. What is concerning is the signals coming from an influential Maori leader pretty much saying that Maori simply cannot achieve at high school. Just another reason for young Maori to not even try – after all, if the game is so rigged against you that your own leader is saying forget about it, then, coupled with whatever signals you get from home, why bother with anything?
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June 18, 2009 1:20pm
Sam Buchanan

“Being lured into spending their own time and money when they have little prospect of success is dishonest and cynical on the part of those who are pushing them in that direction. ”

The issue is who decides who will suceed and on what basis. Last tertiary study I did had a limit on numbers – I scraped in at the last minute when somebody else dropped out – then finished with straight As. Today I wouldn’t be admitted to the course because the prerequisites have changed.

“What is concerning is the signals coming from an influential Maori leader pretty much saying that Maori simply cannot achieve at high school. Just another reason for young Maori to not even try – after all, if the game is so rigged against you that your own leader is saying forget about it…”

I guess an influential Maori leader saying the game is rigged isn’t a concern? Maybe we should tell Maori they should spend more on Lotto tickets and fiercely suppress any suggestion that the odds are against them winning. After all, if they don’t buy tickets, they won’t win and have only themselves to blame.
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June 18, 2009 3:18pm
transmogrifier

I’m not sure that you are arguing here. Are you saying that it is in no way the fault of the Maori community for their poor results in secondary education? That the secondary school system we have is impossible for a particular ethnic group to do well in?

No thanks, not buying it. At all.
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June 18, 2009 3:24pm
Sam Buchanan

Not in the slightest – I’m saying that our secondary school system has huge difficulties in assessing academic achievement in the first place, is even worse when dealing with particular cultural outlooks and creates barriers for people from particular cultural backgrounds. Ethnicity doesn’t figure at all.
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June 18, 2009 3:35pm
Sam Buchanan

What are you saying?
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June 18, 2009 3:36pm
tknorriss

Sam Buchanan The issue is who decides who will suceed and on what basis. Last tertiary study I did had a limit on numbers – I scraped in at the last minute when somebody else dropped out – then finished with straight As. Today I wouldn’t be admitted to the course because the prerequisites have changed.

But Sam, you obviously were obviously reasonably skilled in communicating your thoughts in a structured and logical way. From my experience in marking undergraduate papers, there are a lot of students who are sadly lacking in this essential skill.

IMO before anyone can gain entry into university prospective students should meet prerequisite requirements in English comprehension and communication, critical thinking, and mathematics (if it is a science or maths based course). This then would at least ensure that students possess the minimum level of skills required to succeed at this level.
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June 18, 2009 4:47pm
jcuknz

It is a bit late in the day to come back with this but I’m sure I heard Sue Bradford say she didn’t object to parents smacking their children on Morning Report this morning. This is why as somebody suggested on another thread that ‘teacher’ will report to CYF is regretable. The only case I have heard about was an alleged ear twist and an alleged punch, but if I were a parent I would be worried what a reasonable smack could cause with over enthusiastic do-gooders around..
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June 18, 2009 5:05pm
Sam Buchanan

“you obviously were obviously reasonably skilled in communicating your thoughts in a structured and logical way. From my experience in marking undergraduate papers, there are a lot of students who are sadly lacking in this essential skill.”

Highly likely – so entry qualifications aren’t working anyway.
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June 18, 2009 5:44pm
starboard

** Newsflash**….David Bains starting a new job next week as a photographer…he will be specialising in family shots…
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June 18, 2009 5:58pm
wreck1080

Isn’t target a pathetic program sometimes?

complaining about birds in the garden bar of a cafe, and how they will give all the kiddies food poisoning.

maybe we should kill all the birds ? then the greenies will start hanging around waving banners in our faces.

can’t win.
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June 18, 2009 8:51pm

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