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June 13, 2009 9:49am by David Farrar

General Debate 13 June 2009

Please avoid discussing the by-election candidates or what you think will be the outcome, until after 7 pm.

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General Debate

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billyborker

Once again in the imorality, the stupidity and the threat to life of religious belief has been on display.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10578192

I am pleased there have been convictions, saddened there is no government attempts to ban this stupidity and to institute educational processes that teach critical thinking, rationality and humanism as a better way of life.

Say after me – there are no gods, there are no demons, there are no spirits. Belive in this and you will be free to live life to its fullest.
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June 13, 2009 10:10am
reid

Check this out.

Recruitment agency charging job-seekers a month’s salary to find them a job.

Exploiting people when they’re vulnerable is despicable.
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June 13, 2009 10:10am
billyborker

No, exploiting people, vulnerable or not, is the basis of capitalism. This business is doing exactly as it should – anything and everything that it can do to make money for its shareholders. That is the sole objective of a company.
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June 13, 2009 10:12am
reid

Hey billy, I was talking last night to one of the top scientists in NZ who was telling me that in the fields of cosmology and biology the research over the last 50 years is that the odds of us coming about purely from natural processes are unbelievable.

This is what the scientists say.

Are you a scientist?
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June 13, 2009 10:13am
reid

No, exploiting people, vulnerable or not, is the basis of capitalism.

Bzzzzt.

Supply and demand is the basis of capitalism, billy.

It’s people who exploit people, not a system. A system is neutral. Duh.
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June 13, 2009 10:15am
Grant Michael McKenna

*mutters* Posted on DPF’s NBR column and the bot said I must then do the Captcha, did it and then there were two posts.

The exorcism case is very sad, but I have to ask whether the process used to serve a role in removing dysfunctional members of the family before the days of mental health care ie killing them and saying that they were possessed and therefore it wasn’t murder, thereby removing a burden from the family. My contention is that a religious motive hides a secular one.
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June 13, 2009 10:16am
getstaffed

reid – interesting. supply and demand at work: lots of job motivated job seekers and few[er] willing employers so they’re attempting to move the burden of cost to the most motivated. can’t see it taking off. we’ll see.
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June 13, 2009 10:18am
Grant Michael McKenna

Need to make clear that I’m referring to the historic role of exorcisms, not this case, where I’m sure that nobody intended the waterboarding to be so final.
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June 13, 2009 10:19am
tknorriss

Billyborker I am pleased there have been convictions, saddened there is no government attempts to ban this stupidity and to institute educational processes that teach critical thinking, rationality and humanism as a better way of life.

Say after me – there are no gods, there are no demons, there are no spirits. Belive in this and you will be free to live life to its fullest.

Billy, the fact is that Labour institutionalised this sort of superstition when it produced a law so stupid that the government was hindered in building a road due to a “taniwha”. Given that Labour has been sactioning this sort of superstional nonsense, it is probably fair to say that Labour has been indirectly complicit in this death by fostering the culture that allows it to exist.
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June 13, 2009 10:54am
cha

Bonds worth $134.5 billion are seized. This is the largest financial smuggling case in history. But are they real?
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June 13, 2009 10:57am
billyborker

reid, it matters no what the odds are – the fact is that we are here, therefore odds are an academic exercise, but add nothing to the debate.

Just what are the odds “of us coming about purely from natural processes …” compared to the odds that god dunnit?

The odds of a certain horse winning a race may be, say, 100/1, but that has no bearing on wether or not that horse will win the race. To take the analogy further, the favourite in each race is determined by the odds, thus making that horse more likely to be expected to win, and yet analyisis shows that favourites lose two thirds of all races.

As I said – we are here, we arose by purely random, natural processes. No gods, no demons, no spirits. Just pure, random chance.
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June 13, 2009 10:58am
billyborker

tk, it is not about labour or national; it is about right and wrong, mythbelieveing or rationality, listening to voices or listening to humanity.

As to …it is probably fair to say that Labour has been indirectly complicit … Wrong again, it is everyone who perpetuates belief in myth, it is every priest/minister/rabbi/whatever who lies to people by claiming to know god’s will, it is every parent who abuses their children by incultaing religious belief before critical thinking and it si every citizen who stands by while religion is accorded priveleged status.
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June 13, 2009 11:01am
Razork

Reid, I have more than a passing interest in the recruitment industry and I can tell you this practise has been tried and failed before.
No decent employer will involve themselves in this.

The agency ends up dealing with only the most desperate of candidates and scumbag clients who are the hardest to please anyway.

It won’t take off!
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June 13, 2009 11:08am
billyborker

Janet Moses is dead, because evil people were permitted to preach evil and other people believed them. There is no other reason. No rational person could do that to her. Only irrational people in the grip of a delusional belief.
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June 13, 2009 11:13am
getstaffed

borker – what would life be like for you without a General Debate thread on which to spew your bile-filled hatred and anti-religion rants?

If ‘giving up religion’ was to make me more like you then I’d quickly and simultaneously become a Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim and Christian… and anything else really, lest my life become bitter and dark like yours.
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June 13, 2009 11:13am
tknorriss

Billyborker, Wrong again, it is everyone who perpetuates belief in myth, it is every priest/minister/rabbi/whatever who lies to people by claiming to know god’s will, it is every parent who abuses their children by incultaing religious belief before critical thinking and it si every citizen who stands by while religion is accorded priveleged status.

So, by your own logic, Labour is complicit in the death.

According to you:
A. Everyone who perpetuates the superstitious myths is complicit in the death of this girl.
B. Labour have been perpetuating these myths (e.g. taniwha tops road building)

Therefore, Labour are complicit in the death of this girl.

Agreed?
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June 13, 2009 11:20am
AG

GMM,
“My contention is that a religious motive hides a secular one.”

Isn’t this true of ALL religious motivations? Or, at least, isn’t it arguable in relation to all purportedly “religiously driven” acts? So, the martyrs who go to the stake in the name of true belief are really just expressing their Todestrieb; the widow who gives the temple a small copper coin in secret is really just acting out of naturally-selected, genetically driven altruism.

Point is – what is so special about exorcism that its purportedly religious overtones need given a non-religious explanation?
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June 13, 2009 11:24am
AG

tknorriss:
“Given that Labour has been sactioning this sort of superstional nonsense, it is probably fair to say that Labour has been indirectly complicit in this death by fostering the culture that allows it to exist.’

Gosh … better disestablish the churches then.
http://www.aen.org.nz/journal/2/2/Kavan.html

Problem is, if everyone is guilty, then no-one is guilty. Or, alternatively, if believing in something (ie political action) makes you responsible for the most extreme varients of that belief (ie suicide bombings), then we’re all fucked.
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June 13, 2009 11:33am
3-coil

billyborker: Janet Moses is dead because her loving whanau loved her so much that they tortured and killed her to release her from her pain.

What can’t you understand about that?
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June 13, 2009 11:43am
AG

3-coil

Right. Just like Joanna Lee is dead because her spiritually enlightened pastor was so concerned for her welfare that he strangled her to death.
http://www.aen.org.nz/journal/2/2/Kavan.html

Point?
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June 13, 2009 11:54am
tknorriss

AG Problem is, if everyone is guilty, then no-one is guilty. Or, alternatively, if believing in something (ie political action) makes you responsible for the most extreme varients of that belief (ie suicide bombings), then we’re all fucked.

There are a lot of people with irrational beliefs.

What is unacceptable is that Labour legislatively enshrined the right to hold and act on irrational beliefs, and that the state would recognise these as important in their own decision making, as per the taniwha stopping a road. Given this environment, it is not surprising that individuals would feel they were sanctioned to continue with irrational, dangerous behaviours based in their cultural beliefs.
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June 13, 2009 12:06pm
AG

tknorriss
“Given this environment, it is not surprising that individuals would feel they were sanctioned to continue with irrational, dangerous behaviours based in their cultural beliefs.”

You mean like how Parliament opens with a prayer? Or how witnesses can swear on the bible? Or churches object to brothels opening near to them? Or how blasphemous libel is a crime? Or how religious organisations have exemptions under the Human Rights Act from the prohibition on discrimination in employment?

I can see why all this would really upset you. And I’m glad to see you so active in opposing it. Right? Right?
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June 13, 2009 12:13pm
billyborker

What is unacceptable is that Labour legislatively enshrined the right to hold and act on irrational beliefs…

Nope, that existed long before the Labour party was even formed.
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June 13, 2009 12:14pm
tknorriss

Fair enough.

But I still argue that Labour ramped it up to a new level. By stopping a road due to the claimed existence of a taniwha, the government implied it was actually seriously considering the possibility that the taniwha existed. This is actually a decision that had implications for considerable amounts of committed resources. So, the message was that the government was prepared to waste millions of dollars on the basis that a taniwha might exist.
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June 13, 2009 12:40pm
side show bob

Billyborker “saddened there is no government attempts to ban this stupidity”. Billy, billy, billy if the government could ban stupidity then there would be no need for the left now, would there and thus people like yourself would be redundant.
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June 13, 2009 12:40pm
coolas

Cool discussion. Thanks Billy. Makuta like Voodoo is alive & well for the believers. That devils & angels are created by the human mind doesn’t seem to make them less potent. Collective belief in myth & fantasy was a potent element in the Bush administration (Christian) underpins Israeli policy (God’s chosen) and accounts for Jihad (1000 virgins in heaven) It’s all those stories & myths that create the belief structures and shape the mindset. The beliefs might be fantasy but their consequences are real. As it was for Janet.
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June 13, 2009 12:55pm
backster

BILLY…Your views on religion are those of a true socialist and illustrate why underhand corruption comes so easily to them. Likewise your views on capitalism are only relevant when it is as practiced by one CHOUDHARY who fleeced tens of thousands of dollars from Indian and Chinese immigrants while his wife was posing with her friends Clark and Goff.
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June 13, 2009 12:55pm
AG

tknorris,
“By stopping a road due to the claimed existence of a taniwha, the government implied it was actually seriously considering the possibility that the taniwha existed. This is actually a decision that had implications for considerable amounts of committed resources. So, the message was that the government was prepared to waste millions of dollars on the basis that a taniwha might exist.”

But this actually isn’t what happened. “The government” didn’t stop the construction in the way you suggest (ie by stepping in and ordering construction to stop). Rather, local Maori simply objected under the RMA (legislation, you’ll note, first passed by National). And the “Taniwha objection” actually marked deeper lying concerns over non-consultation (as argued above, purportedly religious reasoning often serves as a cloak for more secular issues). See http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=3003401 for a good discussion of the issues here. Further, taking people’s concerns seriously doesn’t say anything about the truth/falsity of those concerns. It just means that in public planning processes, it’s a good idea to try and bring as many people with you as you can, and a bit of delay to do so often pays off in the long run.

FYI – do I believe in Taniwha? Of course not. But then I’m not Maori. Just as I’m not Jewish, so don’t think there’s a problem with eating shell fish or pork.
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June 13, 2009 12:57pm
tknorriss

AG, from that article:

“To identify where the problem is. It’s how we deal with it so we can move on. We need to sit down with Transit New Zealand and come to some arrangement where both parties come out on top. And we will.

“It’s a matter of how do we address it and if there are any other taniwha that could lurch out and hold the project up – that needs to be raised over the next 24 hours [he said on Wednesday]. That’s the issue we’re going to be working on so we do not hold the project up any further.”

Thursday’s meeting with Transit was initially confrontational, he says, but finished with an agreement to limit the work until further talks are held next week.

So, Transit did hold up the work on the basis of a taniwha. On that basis, they would hold up work because someone claimed little green aliens used the site as a landing strip, and that the work should be held up to allow consultation.
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June 13, 2009 1:08pm
3-coil

AG (11:54am): I was not aware that this was a church exorcism – what is their religion? Sounded to me like a dozen or so loving whanau dealing with “their” own family problem, in the privacy of their own home…in their own cultural way.
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June 13, 2009 1:18pm
Brian Smaller

Today I have just prepared most of tonight’s dinner.

Made a vanilla panne cotta for dessert – in the fridge setting and should be just right about 7pm tonight.

Put a 2.5kg pork belly on to slow roast (4-5 hours). Nice murellen pork from Canterbury.

Beats KFC!
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June 13, 2009 1:19pm
Brian Smaller

Collective belief in myth & fantasy was a potent element in the Bush administration (Christian) underpins Israeli policy (God’s chosen) and accounts for Jihad (1000 virgins in heaven)

I think you will find it is 72 virgins, even in these times. Probably seems like 1000 though when all you are used to is donkeys and goats.
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June 13, 2009 1:21pm
coolas

Our local Taniwha is Muri Muri son of Pania & Tangaroa. He’s the shape of a shark and has pink skin and there are lots of stories about him including being shot at in the morning of the Napier earthquake. Lots of old people have seen him and always around distaster – drownings etc – and breaking of kaimoana protocol, like dirt kete. I know he’s a myth but it makes for such great stories and enriches my connection with the sea.
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June 13, 2009 1:27pm
Inventory2

Hush Brian – you’re making me hungry!
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June 13, 2009 2:23pm
AG

tknorris,
“On that basis, they would hold up work because someone claimed little green aliens used the site as a landing strip, and that the work should be held up to allow consultation.”

If you had a local community (cf one local nutter) who wished to strongly argue that claim from genuine beliefs, then Transit may well do so. And then they may go ahead and build the road. As happened in the Meremere road case.

As for whether this REALLY is an issue (or a storm in a very small teacup), this study tells the tale: http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz/publications/researchpubs/FinalMeremere_Roadingcasestudy.pdf
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June 13, 2009 4:42pm
billyborker

I think you will find it is 72 virgins…

Its a mistranslation, what they get is 72 raisins, not virgins
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June 13, 2009 4:44pm
cha

The Rise of the ‘Idiot’ Right
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June 13, 2009 5:12pm
starboard

“Today I have just prepared most of tonight’s dinner.

Made a vanilla panne cotta for dessert – in the fridge setting and should be just right about 7pm tonight.

Put a 2.5kg pork belly on to slow roast (4-5 hours). Nice murellen pork from Canterbury. ”

..your address please kind sir…I shall bring a sticky to have with the panne cotta…
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June 13, 2009 5:37pm
reid

DPF, Kiwiblog usability suggestion.

Your default font style has changed.

Adjust the font size up a notch or two.
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June 13, 2009 5:48pm
David Farrar

Reid – it hasn’t changed for me. What is the default you are seeing?
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June 13, 2009 5:56pm
reid

Yeah sorry DPF, I pressed the wrong button.

D’oh.

Perhaps I should box up my computer and send it back.
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June 13, 2009 6:07pm
reid

FYI, in case you missed it.

Edward De Bono interview with Katherine Ryan.

Scroll down to it.

Discusses thinking. Proposes every govt should have a Minister of Thinking. Creative not analytical.

E.g. the thought of giving the Palestinians a grant of ?$ per year but taking off them a penalty sum everytime they fired a rocket at Israel.
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June 13, 2009 6:38pm

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