General Debate 21 May 2009

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Pat

Darren Hughes should be dubbed The Ginger Whinger.
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May 21, 2009 10:07am
Redbaiter

The organised group of students who attacked Melissa Lee are Labour supporters, the usual group of communists and socialists and other assorted leftwingers, and the lying cowardly mainstream media should reveal this extremely pertinent fact rather than portraying their actions as those of a spontaneous politically uncommitted group.

Lincoln Tan is (IMHO) guilty of lying by omission and of deceit that deliberately favours the extreme left wing political faction in this country. He, and the editor who allowed this article, have committed the kind of behaviour that over the last few decades, has brought widespread contempt upon the so called “journalists” and their discredited and dying broadsheets that were once “newspapers”, but today are just propaganda sheets for New York Times style liberal/ leftism.

Melissa Lee too should too have identified this group for what they really are. A group of cowardly subversives whose allegiance is not to NZ and democracy but to international communism and totalitarianism.

Shame the National Party is held too fast in the grip of political correctness to call a spade a spade. Until they grow the balls to start confronting the lying left wing mainstream media, democracy and the Westminster parliamentary system will continue to be the loser.
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May 21, 2009 10:14am
slightlyrighty

Here’s a question that won’t be answered…..

How is it that when Fairfax Media puts in an OIA request to the police to get the Tony Vietch, the police fall over themselves to release a 360 page document, but when the police get an OIA request for the file on the leaking or otherwise of the E-Mails of Don Brash, they put every possible barrier in the way, taking over a year, claiming the request was lost, then releasing a 45 page edited document?

Why is the media not all over this?

[DPF: A very good comparison]
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May 21, 2009 10:15am
Inventory2

What’s he whingeing about this time?

BTW – I love WhaleOil’s description of Dazza – the ginga that the Electoral Office’s Orange Man was based on 🙂
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May 21, 2009 10:17am
Inventory2

slightlyrighty – you raise a VERY pertinent question. Apart from the fact that it represents a HUGE double-standard by the Police, all this does is raise questions about what was so incriminating in the Brash file that it had to be censored.

And as to why the MSM isn’t all over it – the MSM is too busy kicking Veitch around again, because that kind of crap is what sells papers.
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May 21, 2009 10:26am
cha

LOL, Penguin
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May 21, 2009 10:28am
Redbaiter

Wow, there’s actually a journalist out there who understands his job and an editor who alows him to do it.

Leighton Keith at The Taranaki Daily News exposes the excesses of the jack booted group of fascist thugs who call themselves the Minstry of Fisheries.

The guy sold a fish to a willing buyer for $10 for chrissake, and was taken to court and fined $300 and had $5000 worth of fishing equipment confiscated by the state.

How can we afford to fund useless over powerful departments like this when the country is experiencing levels of violent crime and social decay that has never been witnessed before in NZ’s history?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2428366/MFish-called-Gestapo-over-10-gurnard
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May 21, 2009 10:32am
goodgod

Take heart Redbaiter! There is an organisation you can complain to about the lack of ethics in the media:

41. JOURNALIST CODE OF ETHICS

Respect for truth and the public’s right to information are overriding principles for all journalists. In pursuance of these principles, journalists commit themselves to ethical and professional standards. All members of the Union engaged in gathering, transmitting, disseminating and commenting on news and information shall observe the following Code of Ethics in their professional activities:

(a) They shall report and interpret the news with scrupulous honesty by striving to disclose all essential facts and by not suppressing relevant, available facts or distorting by wrong or improper emphasis.

(b) They shall not place unnecessary emphasis on gender, race, sexual preference, religious belief, marital status or physical or mental disability.

(c) In all circumstances they shall respect all confidences received in the course of their occupation.

(d) They shall not allow personal interests to influence them in their professional duties.

(e) They shall not allow their professional duties to be influenced by any consideration, gift or advantage offered and, where appropriate, shall disclose any such offer.

(f) They shall not allow advertising or commercial considerations to influence them in their professional duties.

(g) They shall use fair and honest means to obtain news, pictures, films, tapes and documents.

(h) They shall identify themselves and their employers before obtaining any interview for publication or broadcast.

(i) They shall respect private grief and personal privacy and shall have the right to resist compulsion to intrude on them.

(j) They shall do their utmost to correct any published or broadcast information found to be harmfully inaccurate.

A breach of this Code shall be a breach of the Union’s Rules and thus may give rise to disciplinary procedures under the Rules. If a member is dismissed from employment or otherwise disadvantaged by an employer, and a breach of this Code is claimed by the employer as justification for the dismissal or disadvantage, then the Union, following proper and adequate inquiry, and if it is satisfied to a reasonable degree that the employer’s actions are justified, may decline to pursue a personal grievance on behalf of the member.

HURRAH! Who are these fair and balanced protectors of the truth?

Why, it’s the EPMU of course. 😯

😆

ahhhhahhaa. Fuck me! That’s the funniest thing I’ve read a for a long time.
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May 21, 2009 10:41am
goodgod

P.S. the bloke who got savaged over selling fish without a license broke a perfectly good law. Apply your usually good BS radar and you’ll figure he also broke it in a very clumsy way. No sympathy for clumsiness.
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May 21, 2009 10:46am
Redbaiter

Hang on, what about free trade?

What about the leftist mantra that heavy penalties do not deter criminals?

What about the basic principle of justice that people are innocent until proven guilty?
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May 21, 2009 10:48am
Inventory2

“(g) They shall use fair and honest means to obtain news, pictures, films, tapes and documents.”

Kees Keizer? Nicky Hager? The Standard?

I rest my case 🙂
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May 21, 2009 10:51am
goodgod

Free trade? Where?

Everyone knows selling fish down the pub is a gateway crime to robbing banks at lunchtime with no mask. Better he was picked up now and fined than being allowed to continue his braindead ways and be incarcerated at great expense later on.
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May 21, 2009 10:51am
larryq

How come DPF has been silent on the Chch child smacking conviction? You have an opinion on just about everything else, why not this???

[DPF: Is on my list – I have a backlog]
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May 21, 2009 10:51am
voice of reason

No wonder the courts are clogged up –
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May 21, 2009 10:53am
Redbaiter

Anyway, the main thing is the freshness of for once seeing a journalist who isn’t cheering for big government.

I think its worthy of a pat on the back.

Most of them are such repugnant socialist sycophants.
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May 21, 2009 10:53am
Redbaiter

“How come DPF has been silent on the Chch child smacking conviction? You have an opinion on just about everything else, why not this???”

Why don’t you give Mr. Farrar a break and just write your own opinion loser? He can’t write about every damn thing.
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May 21, 2009 10:56am
adamsmith1922

Irish and UK press cover the scandal of Catholic Church and rampant child abuse

http://adamsmith.wordpress.com/2009/05/21/catholic-church-immoral/

This Church being one that preaches morality all the time to everyone else.
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May 21, 2009 10:58am
Razork

Hey Nats; want a guaranteed vote winner?

Ban teacher only days!!!

Only people complaining will be teachers and the PTA.

Every parent in the country will cheer loudly.
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May 21, 2009 11:05am
Angus

“The organised group of students who attacked Melissa Lee are Labour supporters,…”

Apparently they wanted to make Melissa Lee cry. Charming.

However, what is truly depressing and sickening is that these people are the sort of mindless, gutless, amoral filth that are getting churned out by Auckland UNIVERSITY [!] every year.
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May 21, 2009 11:05am
Redbaiter

“Irish and UK press cover the scandal of Catholic Church and rampant child abuse”

Once again, the crypto leftists calling themselves Libertarians can’t wait to kick Christians.

Much more sexual abuse of children occurs in “secular” government schools, yet its hushed up by adamsmith and his left wing mates.
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May 21, 2009 11:05am
Murray

Hang Redbaiter this is a serious issue, why has DPF not wiped larrys bottom for him? You know the left have nothing to work with untill DPF writes seomething so they can attack it.
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May 21, 2009 11:08am
NOt1tocommentoften

Red… are you serious re your abuse comment? I mean really….
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May 21, 2009 11:08am
kiwipolemicist

Did anyone spot Sue Kedgley’s hypocrisy regarding the so-called Super City?

http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2009/05/21/sue-kedgley-says-super-city-laws-are-draconian/
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May 21, 2009 11:09am
Redbaiter

“Red… are you serious re your abuse comment? I mean really….”

Why don’t you just assert an argument? I don’t know what that equivocal bullshit means. If you’re trying to say my claim is false, then get off your lazy ignorant arse and look up the damn stats.
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May 21, 2009 11:14am
Berliner

What’s DPF’s latest excuse for not having an inquiry???

From NZPA this am:

Former National Party leader Don Brash has called for a Commission of Inquiry into the police investigation of the theft of his emails.

Dr Brash has written to Prime Minister John Key and Police Minister Judith Collins formally requesting the commission look into the integrity of the police investigation into the theft, and police behaviour since publicly announcing the investigation was closed.

Hundreds of his private emails found their way into the book The Hollow Men, written by Nicky Hager and released not long before the 2005 general election, which National lost.

A long police investigation concluded it was unlikely that anyone would be identified and charged “unless someone makes an admission during the interview process”.

Dr Brash said he did not want the inquiry reopened but: “there are important issues relating to every New Zealander’s privacy and the integrity of our political system that deserve resolution.

“Everybody has a right to expect their correspondence will not be illegally intercepted or read by people it is not intended for.”

Advertisement Advertisement

In a democracy everyone had an interest in being assured that the police take such issues seriously, he said.

“The heavily-censored information that was released to me and some media last week has added significant weight to my concern, held since I was briefed by police in mid 2007, that the investigation into this matter lacked any sense of urgency or diligence.”

Police were more urgent with the Campbell Live case, where police obtained a search warrant for TV3’s premises following a re-enactment of an interview with a medal thief, Dr Brash said.

He said police conduct since closing the investigation — or declaring it “inactive” — was also of concern.

Police behaviour was highly unusual, he said.

Despite promises in April 2008 that he would receive the final report on the investigation, he received it only a year later.

Any suggestion of political bias had to be addressed seriously, Dr Brash said.

– NZPA

[DPF: I have now modified my position and based on the exact wording on what is asked for, support an inquiry]
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May 21, 2009 11:15am
adamsmith1922

Redbaiter thinks that systemic abuse over 60+ years by the Catholic Church with collusion by the Irish State, plus the well documented abuse by Catholic orders in UK, US, Canada and Australia is an attempt to kick Christians whilst hushing up abuse in secular schools.

Well take a running jump you idiot. I would be as appalled if it was happening in government schools.

If you bothered to engage brain, I was not attacking Christians, but those who whilst claiming to be Christians were systematically abusing children and/or covering up such abuses whilst preaching on moral issues to the rest of us.

No doubt you would claim that the Catholics were merely indulging in normal parenting discipline whilst acting in loco parentis.

Get a brain.
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May 21, 2009 11:18am
Redbaiter

Good on Don Brash, one of the few politicians in this country with principle and integrity, and crucified by NZ’s left wing media because of it. The same partisan scum who are now downplaying the seriousness of the Police cover up.
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May 21, 2009 11:18am
Murray

Beliner did you just cut and paste an entire story instead of actually saying anything yourself?

Why? You personally have offered nothing and you can be replaced by a webot.

… are you a webot Beliner? You know the inclusion of advertisments is a dead giveaway.
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May 21, 2009 11:19am
Redbaiter

“I would be as appalled if it was happening in government schools.”

Well it is and it has been mate, but you’re apparently too obsessed with your anti Christian crusade to bother with it.
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May 21, 2009 11:20am
Murray

HEY When DB-P does it its “educational” ok Redbaiter!
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May 21, 2009 11:22am
adamsmith1922

Redbaiter

I am not anti-Christian. I am anti child abuse.
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May 21, 2009 11:28am
Inventory2

Nice to see Peter Dunne is finally being allowed to take a look at Child Support, and maybe even bring some fairness to the system. It would never have happened under the previous administration:

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2009/05/newsflash-peter-dunne-does-something.html
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May 21, 2009 11:30am
Redbaiter

“HEY When DB-P does it its “educational” ok Redbaiter!”

Wonder where adamsmith1922 likes his tennis balls put?
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May 21, 2009 11:32am
adamsmith1922

I see Redbaiter has gone back to ad hominem attacks.
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May 21, 2009 11:40am
dime

Pat – id love to see the Ginga become Labours new leader. That will ensure a centre right govt for another 4 terms.

He needs to unlearn the arrogance he picked up from Ms Clark.

Havent heard a lot from Shane Jones lately, maybe someone in his party actually listened to the arrogant prick give an interview.
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May 21, 2009 11:55am
larryq

I’m a National voter, and I’m sorry to be less than tribal Redbaiter, but I want to know why David hasn’t commented on the Chch case because:

– David is an opinion leader
– He does opine on all manner of things, and this one stands out as a suprise no comment for an issue that has received so much coverage in the NZ media.

It’s a fair question.
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May 21, 2009 11:59am
Murray

Ooo use of latin, theres a compelling argument.
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May 21, 2009 12:01pm
Redbaiter

“It’s a fair question.”

Maybe, but its not asked in a fair manner. The implication is that Mr. Farrar has chosen not to comment because he is partisan and that the news might embarrass the National Party. Here’s the news you apparently haven’t got. He is partisan. That said, he often criticizes National, and allows much more criticism of the party he supports (from me for example) than say outlets like “Not PC” do of the Libertarian party. Mr. Farrar is alright. Give him a break.
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May 21, 2009 12:07pm
NOt1tocommentoften

Ooo, making no argument at all.
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May 21, 2009 12:11pm
Murray

quod erat demonstrandum!
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May 21, 2009 12:11pm
village idiot

Sue Bradford must have caused that guy to punch his son in the face. You know. Cause she hates children, eh!
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May 21, 2009 12:47pm
stephen

I see Redbaiter has gone back to ad hominem attacks.

“back”?
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May 21, 2009 12:49pm
Redbaiter

The NZ Herald Editor on Simon Power’s proposal to cut back on jury trials-

“Continuing with so many costly jury trials put this country out of step with other nations, the commission said. Canada has a five-year threshold, while Australia and Britain have the three-year mark favoured by the Justice Minister. ”

Once again the media in this country acts a clarion for big government. What an utter disgrace to journalism the Herald editor and his filthy little New York Times style mouthpiece for big government are. Traitors to their trade. Vichy scum who betray the people for a pat on the head from their fascist masters.

As if Canada and Australia and Britain are examples of what a country should do. The slow disintegration of their civilization is clear evidence of this. Inwardly collapsing basket case countries where more of the rights and liberties of the people are trampled under the jack boot of big government every day.

NZ should not emulate those societies as they slide incrementally into modern fascism, and any treasonist to his craft newspaper editor who says we should deserves to be hung from a lamp post when the freedom revolution finally arrives.
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May 21, 2009 12:51pm
Murray

village idiot, you might want to actually take a look at Bradfords child raising efforts before you try to attract attention to them. Its not a good score in fact.
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May 21, 2009 12:53pm
casual watcher

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2428266/Boy-tells-of-his-love-for-Davis

Someone should follow up on this story !
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May 21, 2009 12:56pm
bearhunter

“Once again, the crypto leftists calling themselves Libertarians can’t wait to kick Christians.

Much more sexual abuse of children occurs in “secular” government schools, yet its hushed up by adamsmith and his left wing mates.”

That might be true on a worldwide basis, but in Ireland, the vast majority of schools were run by the Catholic Church, with financial support from the state. In effect, the Catholic school system in Ireland WAS the secular school system and from the foundation of the state up until (and into) the 1990s, the devastating abuse of children by religious orders was sickening, as was the complicity of successive governments, the police and medical profession. I hope they all die roaring.
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May 21, 2009 1:01pm
Redbaiter

“In effect, the Catholic school system in Ireland WAS the secular school system”

Jezuz, that must take the prize for self contradiction. Either way, you’ve rooted yourself.
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May 21, 2009 1:03pm
bearhunter

How have I? Around 90 per cent of the schools were run by the RC Church, which was preaching morality on a Sunday while physically and sexually abusing its charges Monday to Friday. Or are the Investigation into Child Abuse report and the Ferns Report simply anti-clerical propaganda?
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May 21, 2009 1:09pm
WraithX

bearhunter said: “Around 90 per cent of the schools were run by the RC Church, which was preaching morality on a Sunday while physically and sexually abusing its charges Monday to Friday.”

Please let us not obscure the facts: The RC Church preaches morality and always has. It expects its members to follow that system of morals. Some members of the Church have NOT followed those morals. This is not the fault of the Church – it is the fault of the individuals. It is not “Catholic Church abuse of children” it is “bad Catholics abusing children”.

If the Church was ordering some of its priests to abuse, it would be what you describe. That is, however, not the case.
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May 21, 2009 1:25pm
larryq

Redbaiter “Maybe, but its not asked in a fair manner. The implication is that Mr. Farrar has chosen not to comment because he is partisan and that the news might embarrass the National Party.”

There is no such implication, and DPF has since said he is going to comment. DPF speaks for himself, but National can’t lose on this one, because they assisted in getting Bradford’s bill thru. So if the conviction looks ok, then they look good (or the conviction might have stuck even under the old law). If it looks bad, they can say that they will be lookng at this again when the result of the referendum is in, and they have appointed Rankin to the Families Commission.
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May 21, 2009 1:28pm
bearhunter

Fair enough Wraith. It does expect its members to follow a system of morals. However, it is not the presence of sadistic perverts among the Catholic clergy that upsets me but the fact that the hierarchy – the Church itself – colluded in covering up the deeds of these creatures and allowed the abuse to continue and in some cases flourish.
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May 21, 2009 1:30pm
Ratbiter

Rankin’s private life vs Families Commission job is a red herring. The real issue is (or at least should be) that Rankin was wasting hundreds of thousands on flying her WINZ crew to luxury love-in conferences in Taupo YEARS before Labour made that sort of thing popular.

It is intersting that that seems less reprehensible here when it is someone appointed under National…
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May 21, 2009 1:32pm
Ryan Sproull

Please let us not obscure the facts: The RC Church preaches morality and always has. It expects its members to follow that system of morals. Some members of the Church have NOT followed those morals. This is not the fault of the Church – it is the fault of the individuals. It is not “Catholic Church abuse of children” it is “bad Catholics abusing children”.

If the Church was ordering some of its priests to abuse, it would be what you describe. That is, however, not the case.

Unless it’s demonstrable that enforcing celibacy in the priesthood predictably and statistically leads to sexual abuse.

Then it’s “Catholic doctrine creating bad Catholics abusing children”.
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May 21, 2009 1:32pm
Murray

Why have we had this feeding frenzy about Rankins private life as apprently we have a right to know but I couldn’t even tell you who the other six are let alone how many times they’ve been married and what other back fence gossip that passes for “journalism” these days.
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May 21, 2009 2:02pm
dime

ratbiter – so youre saying she should be condemned for life? because she overspent 10 years ago? maybe she has learnt her lesson…
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May 21, 2009 2:10pm
freethinker

Ratty
using your logic – Cullen should not get any public appointment in view of the vast sums of public money he wasted – eg about $600 million on a train set – rather makes Rankins excess look like a postage stamp!
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May 21, 2009 2:14pm
Murray

Actually using the rodents “logic” we should be burning Doc Sullen at the stake.

Its an idea.
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May 21, 2009 2:40pm
adamsmith1922

I accept that the Catholic Church did not ‘order’ the abuse and that not all priests, nuns etc are guilty of abuse. However, the Roman Catholic hierachy sought to cover the issue up for decades. They actively resisted the investigation. Indeed some are still seeking to resist. It is in that regard that the Roman Catholic Church has forfeited moral authority.
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May 21, 2009 3:04pm
paradigm

Auckland Uni Student association apparently passed a motion declaring Melissa Lee’s comments racist. But she didn’t mention race at all, as opposed to the student association, who apprently think only live in south auckland and make up 100% of its population.
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May 21, 2009 4:34pm
Patrick Starr

all of NZ would like to extend their sympathies to Westpac ………………………… yeah right
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May 21, 2009 5:52pm
WraithX

bearhunter: the hierarchy are not the Church – they are its teachers. The fact still remains that the Church itself is not at fault – certain members of it (hierarchy or not) are.
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May 21, 2009 9:34pm
WraithX

adamsmith1922: If the Church teachings are 100% morally correct, how does it lose its moral authority when members are corrupt? That simply makes no sense. Any person who follows fully the teachings of the Catholic Church would not commit these crimes. Just because members of the hierarchy tried to cover things up does not negate the fact that the Church teaches moral lessons that are contrary to the crimes.
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May 21, 2009 9:36pm
WraithX

Ryan Sproull: “Unless it’s demonstrable that enforcing celibacy in the priesthood predictably and statistically leads to sexual abuse.”

Well luckily it isn’t then. There is abuse in all areas of life and it is more prevalent in celibate priests than other religious groups or community groups that are not celibate. And frankly – that whole argument drops dead the instant you consider that the majority of these abuse cases are against boys – not girls. Therefore it is a problem of homosexual pedophilia. If priests were normally allowed to marry (and let us not forget that in the Oriental rites of the Church many priests are married) the types of people committing these crimes would not be married – or would do so for the sake of appearances, whilst still perpetrating their evil acts.

It is very easy to go after the red herring of clerical celibacy, but in fact it is not relevant. Perhaps more relevant is that the majority of the cases of abuse happened after 1965 when Pope Paul VI relaxed the ban on homosexuals in the seminary. Pope Benedict in order to stop these abuses has reinstated the strict ban on allowing homosexuals in to the seminary. Men who rape boys are pedophiles first, and mostly homosexuals second.

Just to clarify here – I am not saying that homosexuality leads to pedophilia. In fact, I am gay myself but at least honest enough to see that the problem comes from pedophile homosexuals who were (prior to the 60s) kept out of positions of authority in the Church before they even had a chance to take the first step on the ladder.

The BBC says: “The Vatican has published long-awaited guidelines which reaffirm that active homosexuals and “supporters of gay culture” may not become priests.”

You can read the full press release here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4480588.stm

Let us hope that this step (which will seem prejudiced against homosexual men who are not pedophiles – ie, the vast majority) will help to stop the abuse. Thankfully Pope Benedict is more willing to do something un-PC for the sake of the integrity of the Church than his predecessor was.
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May 21, 2009 9:45pm
WraithX

Oh – Ryan Sproull – you may also find this interesting:

“The mainstream media has all but ignored the recent Associated Press report that the three major insurance companies for Protestant Churches in America say they typically receive 260 reports each year of minors being sexually abused by Protestant clergy, staff, or other church-related relationships. [Note: this excludes reports from all of the smaller protestant groups that don’t have insurance.]

[…]

Responding to heavy media scrutiny, the Catholic Church has reported that since 1950, 13,000 “credible accusations” have been brought against Catholic clerics (about 228 per year.) The fact that this number includes all credible accusations, not just those that have involved insurance companies, and still is less than the number of cases in Protestant churches reported by just three insurance companies, should be making front page of The New York Times and the network evening news. It’s not.”

From: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286153,00.html

I can’t think of a single protestant group that enforces (or even recommends) celibacy for their religious leaders.
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May 21, 2009 9:54pm
Poliwatch

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/2431136/Students-banned-for-burning-NZ-flag

“Victoria University in Wellington has temporarily banned three students for burning a New Zealand flag on campus.

The students burnt the flag outside a campus bar on May 6 as part of an Anzac Day anti-war protest.

The university has disenrolled flag burners Joel Cosgrove and Alistair Reith, and Ian Anderson, who filmed the protest, until the end of the first trimester on June 7 on the grounds they breached health and safety standards.”

Not so many years ago we would have banned them from the country to some uninhabited place. I vote that they are exiled to Antarctica.
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May 22, 2009 12:50am
Ratbiter

Murray, Dime & Freethinker have confirmed that when a National appointee does it, there’s no problem and nothing to see here.

Interesting…
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May 22, 2009 1:36pm

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Dan Moskovitz

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