General Debate 16 May 2009

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Redbaiter

Good to see at least one of NZ’s “journalists” is following through on this matter of (probable) Labour Party/ Police corruption.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10572555

Great article on the Brash email issue from Fran O’ Sullivan.
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May 16, 2009 10:29am
Say Goodbye to Hollywood

It seems UMR research only wish to poll people between 18-39 in Mt Albert. Don’t people over 39 vote any more?
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May 16, 2009 10:30am
reid

“Don’t people over 39 vote any more”

Probably because that’s where that nest of vipers, conservatives, tend to be found.

Wouldn’t want to let the public know that there’s any solid support for THAT perspective, would we.
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May 16, 2009 10:39am
Adolf Fiinkensein

Just watched cuzzie Kelvin Davis make a fool of himself in parliament, trying to run the line that no Bros live in Remuera.

Labour will pay a high price for this piece of very expensive tom foolery in the house.
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May 16, 2009 10:43am
reid

Thanks for the link, RB.

Brash has had no help from Prime Minister John Key. It is within Key’s powers to direct an independent review of the police investigation. But though he was the direct beneficiary of Brash’s downfall he is reluctant to give the case oxygen.

Brash has had no help from Police Minister Judith Collins either. Collins was Brash’s close political chum during the dying days of his leadership when it seemed as if he might just survive. But she has not asked for a review….

This is frankly unacceptable in a democratic system where authorities like the police should be expected to get to the bottom of what was obviously a politically motivated burglary.

Fuckin A, baby. And why isn’t every single National Party member demanding immediate and vigorous action from both Collins and Key on this matter? Why aren’t they? This is fucking appalling. Either you stand by your principles or you don’t. Well, what’s your response? Silence? This IS unacceptable and if The Leader is not prepared to act then it’s over to you to make him. Period. So get going, now. Make it happen, FFS.
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May 16, 2009 10:50am
big bruv

Why is Neville Key so desperate to defend the “legacy” of Kullen and Klark?

Both Klark and Kullen deserve no special treatment, their corruption needs to be exposed.
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May 16, 2009 10:53am
Tuija

It seems to me that the ramming through under urgency the local government Auckland reorganization bill which will give Hide Total control over all matters for over 1 miilion people local government decision making is totally undemocratic.

Every body here shouted long and loud about the EFA and its supposed effect on democracy.
But this bill rides rough shod over the democratic rights of 1 million Aucklanders
The Transition authority which is appointed by Hide can even decide how many bog rolls an existing council can buy.

A select committee would be the best option wouldn’t it ?
It’s such a major change after all
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May 16, 2009 10:56am
Redbaiter

Another smear on the right from John Armstrong-

Talking of Christine Rankin’s appointment to the Families Commission, Armstrong says-

“National could install such a tactless, divisive figure from the conservative right in such a job,”

I don’t know how the hell this dumbarse became a figure of the “Conservative right”.

She rose through the ranks of the public service not on the basis of raw talent, but because of the leftist device of affirmative action.

I don’t know what Rankin is, apart from a dumbarse.

She sure as hell is no Margaret Thatcher, Sarah Palin, Janet Albrechtsen, Lynn Cheney or Michelle Bachman.

That Armstrong would try and hang the “Conservative Right” label on this self serving publicity seeking politically ignorant bimbo can only prove one of two things-

Armstong doesn’t have a damn clue what the Conservative right is, or he’s deliberately trying to smear that wing of politics.
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May 16, 2009 10:57am
reid

Why is Neville Key so desperate to defend the “legacy” of Kullen and Klark?

“I cannot forecast to you the action of ~~Russia~~ Key. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is ~~Russian national~~ Key’s personal interest.”
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May 16, 2009 10:59am
reid

That Armstrong would try and hang the “Conservative Right” label on this self serving publicity seeking politically ignorant bimbo can only prove one of two things-

Armstong doesn’t have a damn clue what the Conservative right is, or he’s deliberately trying to smear that wing of politics.

Actually RB, I think it proves both things.
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May 16, 2009 11:05am
democracymum

$120,000 Labour’s Filibustering Fiasco – Anyone want to check my maths?

With a mixture of about 50 backbenches and Ministers in the house at any one time this week
to debate these ridiculous amendments I have estimated the cost so far to the NZ taxpayer:

Average cost of MP salary $150,000 (averaged between a Backbencher and Minister )
Average hourly rate per MP $50 per hour (net)
50 MPs @ $50 per hour = $2,500 per hour
60 (approx. hours used by the house this week to debate amendments)
Calculation: 12 hrs a day for 5 days
= 60 hours @ $2,500
Total cost to the NZ Tax Payer $150,000

These figures are a conservative estimate only and do not take into account the opportunity cost of
the hourse lost ie the work these MPs should be doing in their electorates etc, and the work that
should be being done helping to fix the economy etc.

If Labour are happy to spend the tax payer’s money with such disregard, all I can say
is I am pleased they are no longer in power.
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May 16, 2009 11:09am
davidp

>Total cost to the NZ Tax Payer $150,000

MPs salaries are fixed so that isn’t a cost. But they’ll have needed to keep all the parliamentary staff on duty, and I’m guessing most of them would be earning overtime.
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May 16, 2009 11:15am
democracymum

What is the point of holding an election, (at great expense) to elect leaders for the country with
a clear mandate – particularly in Auckland, and then have an opposition to stall the opposition purely
for the process of furthering their own political agenda.

This is not democracy.

It’s about time changes were made to the political process, limiting the amount of amendments that can
be put forward to any one piece of legislation.

This would mean that parties would have to put forward, quality amendments, instead of hi-jacking the political
process to further their own aims.
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May 16, 2009 11:16am
Redbaiter

“Actually RB, I think it proves both things.”

Thanks for the smile Reid.

Armstrong is the guy who was awarded best political journalist at the Qantas awards.

Says a lot about the Qantas Awards don’t it?
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May 16, 2009 11:18am
coolas

Great entertainment in politics this week. Wiped Swine Fever off the radar. ‘Look’ Lee was so ‘silly’, Rodney IS the Little Emperor, the remake of Rankin is a geriatric barbie, Bakshi is living up to his name, & ‘Hey it’s Johnny’ Key has been been dying his hair again. And now Filibustering in the House. Gotta love that word. Thanks to all the players for spicing up the brew.
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May 16, 2009 11:20am
democracymum

davidp

This is what I want my MPs to be busy debating
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10572666
Not thousands of puerile amendments,
Yes their salaries are fixed, but that doesn’t mean they can’t use their time appropriately.
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May 16, 2009 11:21am
reid

To the dickhead who’s awarding negative karma to my 10:50 and 10:59 comments. How about coming out and trying to justify the actions of Key and Collins in relation to the Brash matter?

Bet you don’t.
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May 16, 2009 11:24am
Murray

Reid this is the shark tank not the paddling pool. Grow teeth or move to the shallow end. If you haven’t worked out by now that the green party paid trolls award negative karma for thought crimes onf not being a fellow communist and thoers just give you negative for not aggreing wth their personal hobby horses then its too late for you.
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May 16, 2009 11:41am
reid

No I’m hoping Murray that they will try to justify their position, which IMO is not possible and I’m going to enjoy shooting them down if they try to.

After 2597 comments I think I’ve worked out how KB works so try not to be so fucking patronising next time…

In relation to those particular comments I would be slightly surprised if it was a lefty since I’d imagine they would in fact give me a positive for criticising their enemies. Isn’t that a logical conclusion?
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May 16, 2009 11:49am
big bruv

Reid

Sadly there are cheer leaders on both sides of the political divide, I make exceptions for those on the left as they are almost all knuckle dragging fools, however, I reserve a special dislike for those on our side who insist that Neville and co can do no wrong.

I am bitterly disappointed at the inaction of Collins, I have always believed she has the capacity and the “balls” to be our very own Maggie Thatcher, frankly I expect better from her.
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May 16, 2009 11:52am
Murray

Good luck with that plan reid.
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May 16, 2009 11:55am
dave

while Labour is filibustering it is good to see that Mt Albert candidate Melissa Lee has her priorities sorted.
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May 16, 2009 11:57am
reid

“Sadly there are cheer leaders on both sides of the political divide…”

Yes, bb. I used to be a member of the National Party and I recall one regional conference soon after Key was elected. The sycophancy display was and is nauseating and is one of the reasons I canceled my membership. I assume it’s the same in most of the other parties as well perhaps apart from ACT but I don’t know for sure. It certainly exists for real in the National Party.

It’s not only unnecessary it’s also dumb and counter-productive to fawn and scrape to anyone. Especially when grown adults engage in it.

Quite pathetic, really.
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May 16, 2009 12:00pm
backster

The first action that KEY should have taken on assuming office should have been to summons BROAD to his office and prior to firing him demanded the full file on the BRASH emails in order to determine who else needed to be culled from the Police and other departments. Instead he offered CLARK and CULLEN his full support for their desired sinecures. The failure to disclose the full scope of the enquiry will remain a continuing blight on this administration, and be seen as compliance with a Liabour Coverup.
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May 16, 2009 1:48pm
Say Goodbye to Hollywood

UMR research are going hard in Mt Albert today. Second call and the age factor didn’t kick in this time.

1st Question
Who will you vote for in up coming Election?
1. David Shearer
2. Melissa Lee

2

2nd Question
Will you change your mind before the election
No.
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May 16, 2009 1:55pm
xyzzy

Why are they asking if you are going to change your mind? If you already know you’re going to change your mind, then you must also ultimately know who you’re going to vote for, but then it can’t be possible for you to change your mind. The question is ridiculous.
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May 16, 2009 2:13pm
Jack5

Change of topic for a minute if I may — a request for information from anyone familiar with teacher education.

Can anyone tell me please whether works of Paulo Freire are used in NZ education courses (I think all of the old teachers’ colleges are now part of universities)? The article link comes via Arts & Letters Daily:

http://city-journal.org/2009/19_2_freirian-pedagogy.html
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May 16, 2009 2:42pm
paradigm

“Both Klark and Kullen deserve no special treatment, their corruption needs to be exposed.”

I suspect Key is taking the view “the idiot public like helen clark so i’d better not discredit her”. Only way it will get some serious coverage is if Act get a primary question and some suplementaries on confidence in the police. Problem is they don’t get many questions.
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May 16, 2009 2:55pm
s.russell

Jack5,
I studied for a postgrad diploma in teaching in 2002 in Wgtn. Never heard of Paulo Freire. Thank goodness. Core text was Educational Psychology by McInerney and McInerney. It was actually quite good: being about education rather than politics.
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May 16, 2009 3:18pm
side show bob

Paradigm, or it could be the JK is future proofing his butt. Three years can be a long time in politics and you never know if you are going to get through it snow white. Sometimes it is better not to push an issue or push people that you may need to turn a blind eye to indiscretions later on.
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May 16, 2009 3:23pm
billyborker

Reid asked me to bring this to general debate, from Jesus Weeps thread, so here it is.

Murray (3126) 3 3 Says:

May 16th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Your grasp of matters spirtual …

What would they be, muzza? What use is spiritual in a material world? Or are you just too afraid to grow up and leave behind childish things?

Shunda barunda (410) 5 5 Says:

May 16th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Borker, take your bigoted anti christian crap and shove it.

What IS it about xtians that makes them so angry? That sense of superiority that their cherished beliefs must never bbe questioned? They pray to a non existent god while all around them is pain and suffering they could personally address. But xtians aren’t good on action, prayer absolves them of that need.

radvad (308) 1 4 Says:

May 16th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
“Recent research in to the shape and size of the human penis (far larger than other primates) is that the head is designed so it can scoop out the semen left by a previous male.”

Incredible. Remind me again Billyboy, who exactly is this designer?

Well, accoring to me and the guy who did the research, evolution.

If you want to go off and argue god did it, then explain a god who made women so promiscuous and men happy to go sloppy seconds.

and finally reid, good old god botherer reid.

reid (2604) 3 3 Says:

May 16th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Jesus did not weep over this, jesus doesn’t give a fuck about this. If ever there was a proof god does not exist, cases like this are it.

Once again billy demonstrates appalling ignorance but massive faith in his position. Honestly billy, if you haven’t yet worked out by now the answer to the question: if God exists why does He permit evil; then you’re a complete moron. However I do admire the massive faith you display by standing so firmly inside your atheistic position, which is a position of faith, despite the fact that you try to pretend it’s reached through logic and knowledge. Perhaps you even really believe that line, which makes you even thicker than a moron, perhaps a mentally handicapped village idiot would be a more appropriate adjective for you.

I am not an atheist, do not define me by terms of your religion. I am a free thinker, a rationalist and a Man. Why IS there a word for people who don’t need god, but none for people who don’t need santa, easter bunny, tooth fairy etc. Hang on. There is a word for those people. Adult.

But hey, thasnks for the insults – it is the true mark of a xtian that insult is always preferred to debate. Not so odd, i suppose, when to debate would be to defend the indefensible.
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May 16, 2009 4:19pm
Shunda barunda

I guess “fugley” the reason your statements are so offensive is because they are so damned ignorant.
Your attacks reveal a shallow understanding of, well, some of the most simple to understand doctrines of christianity, yet you parade around like your’ve got the silver bullet.
The same old crap about religion causing wars and “evil” in the world just reveals to all who have even a little understanding how shallow your argument is.
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May 16, 2009 4:43pm
billyborker

…just reveals to all who have even a little understanding how shallow your argument is.

And yet you are so shallow you don’t even have an argument to mount.

So, how about explaining some of these …most simple to understand doctrines of christianity…

Why don’t we start with why Jesus lied about prayer?
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May 16, 2009 4:47pm
Redbaiter

“Why don’t we start with why Jesus lied about prayer?”

Why don’t you do readers a real favour and take it all the way to your own useless blog?
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May 16, 2009 4:50pm
Shunda barunda

“Why don’t we start with why Jesus lied about prayer?”

Maybe he just dosen’t listen to liars.
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May 16, 2009 4:54pm
billyborker

Shunda, you’ve almost got it, now, just drop your last 2 words and you’re right.

Red, no one cares about your pathetic bleatings.
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May 16, 2009 4:58pm
Shunda barunda

Perhaps “Billy” you could give some background information on why you have such a sething contempt for all things christian. Were you once among the “faithful” and had a bad experience? or are you just looking for the most politically “correct” group of people to persecute?
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May 16, 2009 5:06pm
billyborker

Shunda, maybe you’d like to answer the question – why did Jesus lie about prayer?

…looking for the most politically “correct” group of people to persecute?

Not me, for easter I had my partner paint me a picture of mohammed on a cross. It looks quite nice next to Buddha on an ass and Jesus as a suicide bomber.
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May 16, 2009 5:09pm
Shunda barunda

“Shunda, maybe you’d like to answer the question – why did Jesus lie about prayer?”

He didn’t.
I don’t give my kids everything they ask for, it tends to turn them into spoilt brats.
And from your own description of christians, I am sure you will agree giving them everything they ask for would only make em worse.
So Jesus is doing YOU a favour.
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May 16, 2009 5:23pm
billyborker

Did you promise to give your kids everyhing they asked for? Jesus promised to answer all prayers, or promised on behalf of god, that all prayers would be answered. o ifs. No buts. No maybes. No, noth this time, its not good for you. Just an unequivocal promise to answer prayers and to give what ever is asked in prayer.
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May 16, 2009 5:45pm
Shunda barunda

“Jesus promised to answer all prayers”

No he didn’t!!
He told us to follow his example, he also taught about asking with the right motive.
The sugar daddy Jesus is not what I believe in.
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May 16, 2009 5:58pm
paradigm

“Jesus promised to answer all prayers”

I think you are confusing Jesus and Helen Clark. Certainly the latter doesn’t always follow through with her promises.
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May 16, 2009 6:13pm
billyborker

So Matthew 7:7 is a lie? As well as John 14:14?

Why does Jesus say one thing and you believe another?
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May 16, 2009 6:20pm
Tuija

Why in the encyclopedia of world religions have you rejected all but the one on page 47, Christianity ?
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May 16, 2009 6:26pm
Shunda barunda

“So Matthew 7:7 is a lie? As well as John 14:14?”

You have taken both those examples completely out of context.
In context there is a progression of spirtual maturity before the verses you mention, more evidence that God is sensible when it comes to those he trusts.
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May 16, 2009 7:02pm
Patrick Starr

I cant believe I’m saying this but…

“Go The Crusaders”

…..- there, now I can go wash my mouth out
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May 16, 2009 7:35pm
Ed Snack

Anyone else following the trainwreck that is Nancy Pelosi’s serial dishonesty about being informed of the CIA using waterboarding ? First she said she wasn’t told, unfortunately that’s a lie, now she’s claiming that the CIA lied to her and that they mislead Congress. Is it possible we’ve found a politician more dishonest than Helen Clark ? Even the Wapo is questioning her “honest recollections” of the matters, that’s like having the Standard query a labour functionaries utterance.

This is possibly the most powerful political person in the USA after the teleprompter, I wonder why our media has not picked up on the story fully, surely not respect for her gender or politics ?
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May 16, 2009 8:50pm
grumpyoldhori

Ed Snack
I like that ex SEALs idea, waterboard Cheney until he admits to the Sharon Tate murder.
May as well do Palin as well, just to see if god bothers are protected by fairy tales.
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May 16, 2009 9:18pm
Redbaiter

“I wonder why our media has not picked up on the story fully”

Most of the coverage has been on FOX, therefore in the politically stunted minds of NZ’s hopelessly partisan media, its all part of the VRWC.

Of course if the US voters had ever been told the truth about Nancy Pelosi, she’d never be in government, let alone Speaker. The mainstream media in the US, another band of vipers liars and propagandists, have carefully smoke screened the fact that Pelosi is a far left extremist of the type that should never ever be within a light year of power in any country that values its freedom.

The US mainstream media never made a single mention of her executive position in the Progressive Caucus, and the latter’s ties to Socialist International.

Socialist International carries the torch for Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin. Every single tenet of the Socialist International organisation is the exact opposite of the principles upon which America was founded, and which define the U.S. Constitution.

When she became a Congresswoman, Pelosi swore to uphold the US Constitution. She cannot do that and be a member of Socialist International. Her true allegiance is to Global Socialism and not the US Constitution. She is a traitor, and someone who has falsely sworn.
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May 16, 2009 9:30pm
mavxp

@Borker,

my take on Matt7:7 is that it describes a process by which we obtain spiritual growth to become more like Christ (body + spirit acting together according to God’s will – the way Adam was before the Fall in the Genesis narrative). Some of the process is given immediately -like asking for forgiveness “ask and it shall be given”. Some of it requires that we go out an look for it actively “seek and you will find” – be it a life partner, community of believers/ friends, learning deeper understanding about Christ and what it means to follow him, etc. Some things require patience, and persistently waiting on God “knock and the door will be opened to you”. Dealing with loss, pain, long term goals that may not be happening when we expect them to, etc. (i.e. Don’t give up!). Note that each step requires an act of faith on our part.

Jesus was a real man, who lived a real life with real people. He knows life isn’t a bed of roses, but promises that God will help us where it really matters – in our spiritual journey. Back then the spiritual world and physical world were considered to be equally real and were intertwined, so to talk about such matters does not mean “ask for an ipod and God will give you one immediately” which is a grossly simplistic interpretation which 1st century Jews would not for a minute have considered (not least because of the ipod example), and a common trap with our post enlightenment rationalist thinking. His fish and stone example are regarded as symbolic of spiritual matters, but the two worlds are not completely separate – they are linked. Answered prayer does involve physical / tangible help, not just spiritual, but the process is fundamentally to become more like Christ – More loving, more kind, more generous etc… and who wouldn’t want that as a matter of interest?
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May 16, 2009 10:48pm
mavxp

Actually I suggest reading Luke 11:1-11 for a proper context of the quote in Matt7:7. I think it is clear it is talking about spiritual matters with the reference at the end of verse 11: “how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
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May 16, 2009 10:56pm
billyborker

Got a leaflet in my letter box from the local 7 day adventisits headed “Try Jesus”.

So I popped down to the church and asked when the trial would be and why I wasn’t called as a witness for the prosecution.

mavxp, please show me where “ask and it shall be given” refers only to forgiveness. And reconcile that with Jesus saying “whatsovever you ask in my name shall be done”. Pretty clear English, no need to twist his words to wriggle out of the fact that jesus lied, god does not answer prayers.

…but the process is fundamentally to become more like Christ – More loving, more kind, more generous etc…

A worthy goal, but I do not need desert myths to help me achieve that goal. And why would I want to follow a man so ignorant of science that he killed a tree that did not have fruit out of season? Or a man so enamoured of his own talents as a magician that he stole a herd of pigs, and probably the livlihood, of an innocent man?
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May 17, 2009 8:35am
RainbowGlobalWarming

More ‘intellectual’ scrotal waxing from Borkie.
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May 17, 2009 8:49am
lofty

What ever happened to the thieving little labour scrotes who stole the piss????
Just wondering.
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May 17, 2009 9:30am
RainbowGlobalWarming

That all went very quiet so they probably got diversion and had to read the NBR and FT weekend edition for a year.

Anyone actually know?
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May 17, 2009 9:35am
RainbowGlobalWarming

I was referring to borkie waxing his own scrote, not those of the piss stealers.

Just for clarity.
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May 17, 2009 9:37am
lofty

How come Steve Pierson is working in the parliamentary library??
He is a well known blogger from the strandard, who has accused the speaker of being a liar, amongst many, many other accusations against the National party & it’s representatives.
How does he get a job in a position that through it’s very nature demands non partisan staff, not political hacks.
Just wondering?
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May 17, 2009 9:45am
lofty

Check out the Whales take on this disgraceful situation re Pierson
Bloody well said.
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May 17, 2009 9:47am
RainbowGlobalWarming

Pierson is a disgrace.
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May 17, 2009 9:54am

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