General Debate 10 May 2009

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Patrick Starr

Seems Molenaars mate knew of his threat to kill cops 2 weeks ago. FFS fat Tony talk about implicate yourself!!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/video.cfm?c_id=1&gal_objectid=10571430&gallery_id=105565

Hope the cops do him
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May 10, 2009 10:25am
billyborker

Still waiting for the cycleway, jonkey. When are you going to get off your arse and DO something?
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May 10, 2009 10:29am
democracymum

Could this man’s actions be in poorer taste?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10571426

Rollinson, who yesterday painted the word “legend” on his roof in tribute to his friend, said he heard a single gunshot at 6.05am yesterday and knew Molenaar would be dead.

I see also Greg O’Connor is trying to shut down debate on the timing of the response of the police on this matter

Anyone with half a brain could see this was badly handled from start to finish.
The outcome was a matter of good luck rather than good management on the part of the police.
No-one should be able to shut down half a city, after shooting 3 police officers and dictate terms!

I thought this is why we have tactical response units – yes there is risk but that is the nature of the job.
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May 10, 2009 10:36am
Jack5

Is the National Government preparing to shaft farmers over co-operative companies?

The question arises with the New Zealand (Stock) Exchange move to take over further agricultural newspapers and with the appointment by Peter Dunne of the exchange chief executive, Mark Weldon, to the new Tax Working Group. This will advise the Government on tax changes.

I usually find the Sunday morning radio media report of Colin Peacock leftish, but he was on target today in questioning Weldon on the exchange’s move to take over more rural publications.

Henry van der Heyden chairs the exchange. He chairs Fonterra and must take some responsibility for the hundreds of millions the co-operative lost in the China fiasco. Van der Heyden has in the past supported at least part-private capital participation in Fonterra.

Rural co-operatives have been highly successful for NZ. Economic purists who discount co-operatives should consider Rabobank, the Dutch-based co-operative now perhaps the world’s most secure bank. It is certainly a growing power in NZ.

The exchange and the corporate-legal world have been pushing to have our rural co-operatives turn into companies whose shares trade on the exchange. The exchange badly needs new business because of a shrinking NZ-owned public company market. Under Weldon and driven by its finance-sector shareholders, the exchange has expanded from a small, tight facility that provided low-price share trading to companies to a diversified company with a growing stake in NZ media. Australia and carbon-credit training may offer it good growth paths. The exchange is also in a deal which will lead to it having half-stake in Unlisted, the share trading facility set up as an alternative to the exchange.

Peacock, and accounting academic Alan Robb, who Peacock quoted, have a valid point in querying the NZ Exchange’s move into more farm newspapers when the exchange at the same time would benefit from the privatisation of Fonterra and the other farm co-operatives.

The Commerce Commission had better give the latest move a thorough once over.

Meanwhile, surely National, which has long been supported by rural voters who mostly value co-operatives, would not consciously shaft farmers. However, it ought to take care not to be manipulated by the corporate-legal-financial mob who are backing Weldon and van der Heyden. That means National stepping back a bit from both Weldon and van der Heyden.
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May 10, 2009 10:37am
chfr

I am having major issues watching embedded videos in both wordpress and google blogs ie I can’t get them to start just get an error message. I have uninstalled my flash player 3 times not and still no use. I use firefox and do use adblocker and no script and have done for some months but this issue came up this week. Is anyone else experiencing this problem and how do I fix it??
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May 10, 2009 10:38am
bharmer

No, I think it was very well handled.

I have no time for armchair commandos who want other people to be exposed to “risk”.

Police salaries aren’t anywhere big enough to justify that kind of expectation.

I want my grandkids (Aged 4 and 2) to have a reasonable expectation that their dad will come home at night.
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May 10, 2009 10:40am
chfr

Hey Borker I am still waiting for top half of the OECD, Helen when will you do this for me??
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May 10, 2009 10:41am
jcuknz

Further to my comment yesterday about the media frensy … for me it started with Mary Wilson on national radio talking to a police spokeman … trying to drag out every little irrelevant detail from a guy who seemed to count to fifty before answering each question …. and ended with TV3 detailing each time on the screen …I supoose it appeals to the voyeurs but certainly not me. I am suprised that the armed offenders squad doesn’t have mobile protection to enable them to safely get close to an armed person to subdue them, teargas comes to mind or some aenesthetic gas … though perhaps letting it drage on until the person is dead by their own hands saves a lot of subsequent trouble to the state.

Further to the Watson thread …. a question …. if a member of the jury has knowledge such as Paul does about stages in growth of hair … can they query the evidence …. does our system permit such seeking of pertinent facts.
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May 10, 2009 10:54am
Jack5

Another Sunday bone. This one on how Obama may dilute US capitalism …

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/5301078/Barack-Obamas-rich-supporters-fear-his-tax-plans-show-hes-a-class-warrior.html
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May 10, 2009 10:54am
Owen McShane

The good news about the Napier standoff is that it seems to have totally knocked out the Swine Flu virus.
We now appear to be safe.
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May 10, 2009 10:55am
billyborker

Where’s Obama’s birth certificate? Written on the back of jonkey’s plan to revive the NZ economy – neither ever seen again.
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May 10, 2009 10:57am
democracymum

bharmer

While the immediate risk to any police officer was averted through the “tactics” of the police force in this instance
There is now a much greater risk of every underworld criminal amassing a private weapons cache (and using it) to defend his patch every time the police come calling

They NOW KNOW that no-one will even try to take them out, thanks to the political outfall police bosses have had to wear in the past as a result of such cases as the Steven Wallace incident

And given that removing Police Officer Len Snee’s body was always achievable (because it was removed the next day with the right equipment) – why did it take so long?
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May 10, 2009 11:00am
reid

Henry van der Heyden chairs the exchange. He chairs Fonterra and must take some responsibility for the hundreds of millions the co-operative lost in the China fiasco.

Should he also take responsibility for the fact that export sales to China have now increased because the Chinese don’t trust their own market, Jack?

Anyone with half a brain could see this was badly handled from start to finish.

I’m with bharmer on this one, democracymum, prima facie it seemed well handled. They obviously waited till dark on the second day before retrieving Len’s body – that’s why they took so long and as soon as it was dark, they moved. A house wired to explode which is what they had to assume, had to be treated carefully. Not least because there were still neighbours in close proximity.

It’s a tragedy on every level. I hope that civilian gets the George Cross – he deserves it. I hope Hulun hasn’t destroyed that award as well.
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May 10, 2009 11:00am
jarbury

Another Sunday bone. This one on how Obama may dilute US capitalism …

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/5301078/Barack-Obamas-rich-supporters-fear-his-tax-plans-show-hes-a-class-warrior.html

Reading the article it sounds like they’re shocked he’s actually wanting to do what he said he was going to do.

A politician that doesn’t back down on election promises…. how terrible!
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May 10, 2009 11:05am
democracymum

reid

I understand the necessity to wait for darkness, but the incident occured around 10am – that gave the police a full 8 hrs before it got dark to recover the body.

I feel sick to my stomach at that thought of that officer’s body lying out overnight.
Presumably the AOS have night vision capabilities, presumably someone just needed to organise a LAV for cover.
Obviously it was achievable because it got done the next day.
24 hrs too late in my opinion.

And why the stammering and shrouded secrecy from the police after the event has concluded?
Honestly the whole episode makes me angry on so many levels.
Not the least is the message it has now sent to criminals everywhere.
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May 10, 2009 11:09am
Dave Mann

I just switched on the TV and TV1 is showing a sunday morning programme called ‘Marae’ and what I saw shocked me. The programme is in maori, and the subtitle said “Its not just New Zealand citizens who are having children with overstayers…… Maori citizens are too.” I kid you not. Thats what the subtitles said.

Fucking hell. This is our state-owned television station, and they are claiming that Maoris are not New Zealand citizens, but have some sort of ‘citizenship’ status of their own.

The apartheid attitudes of this country are starting to suck big-time. We are literally finished as a cohesive society when this is the attitude of the opinion leaders and state run enterprises in New Zealand.
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May 10, 2009 11:11am
reid

jarbury

a) Obama’s WH is stacked with more Wall-streeters than any other executive in history
b) the obvious solution to the US banks is to nationalise them without compensation to the shareholders, fire the managers who allowed the CDO trade, and direct them to start lending again
c) Obama’s showing no signs of doing this

Still think he’s against the rich?

BTW, where is that original copy of his birth certificate??????????
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May 10, 2009 11:13am
Jack5

Further to my 10.37 post on New Zealand Stock Exchange, Fonterra etc.

I was wrong about van der Heyden chairing the exhange. He is a director of the exchange, but not the chairman. He chairs Fonterra.

And in response to Reid at 11am, are you saying that the Sanlu disaster which led to children dying, was a good thing in that it led to increased NZ dairy sales? If so what sort of marketing would you call that?

How do you know that NZ dairy exports might not have been even higher if the Sanlu disaster did not occur?

The foray into China was ill-managed. How many China experts (Mandarin speaking and authorities on Chinese politics etc) did Fonterra consult first? Bugger all.

What about the cover-up and attempt to media manage the disaster.

You are certainly stretching things to give van der Heyden credit over the Sanlu stuff-up.
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May 10, 2009 11:15am
Redbaiter

“A politician that doesn’t back down on election promises…. how terrible!”

How pathetic. What an incredibly small minded perspective.

Obama is a fraud and a gangster who scammed and faked and defrauded and gangsterised his way to power on the back of the simplistic slogan “change and hope” when all he’s brought is the same old same old rusted and decrepit soviet socialist/ communist ideas and definitely no damn hope.
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May 10, 2009 11:15am
reid

democracymum, I’m sure the time taken to retrieve Len’s body will be a major focus of their enquiries and I would not be at all surprised to see a process change come out of it.

However at this point prima facie I don’t see this as grounds for condemnation. The first day they had to understand the situation, assemble the equipment, give negotiation a try. In hindsight they might conclude that it was possible to make an attempt on that first night. However they still had the exposives to deal with and imagine if that whole house had gone up and killed some of the near neighbours.

It’s too early to make any firm conclusions along the lines you’re suggesting, IMO.
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May 10, 2009 11:18am
reid

The foray into China was ill-managed. How many China experts (Mandarin speaking and authorities on Chinese politics etc) did Fonterra consult first? Bugger all. What about the cover-up and attempt to media manage the disaster. You are certainly stretching things to give van der Heyden credit over the Sanlu stuff-up.

Jack, anyone who wants to penetrate China needs insider consultants and since they penetrated to the extent of setting up an operation I don’t think your first point can be logically correct.

Secondly, I wasn’t giving vDH credit for SanLu, I was merely pointing out that if you sheet home responsibility to a chairman for one event then you also need to do it for all others during their term as well.
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May 10, 2009 11:23am
cha

Had beers last night with a mate who’s ex army, mate reckons Molenaar was using what sounded like an SLR and that the caution shown by police was the proper response with their biggest concern being that Molenaar had enough bang to demolish everything within a 400 metre plus radius of his house.

And I doubt the keyboard heroes have ever seen what 200gs of power gel, let alone a couple or three kgs, can do.
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May 10, 2009 11:28am
democracymum

cha

That risk existed from the moment the police went onto his property – and Molenaar himself could have chosen at any time to blow the neighbourhood sky high! That risk remained until the moment he chose to shoot himself.

Yes you need to evacuate everyone you can first, that is your clear and present danger, but to then leave this
man to his own devices gave him every opportunity to bed in and gain the upper hand, which he had right to the end.

Imho it is bad tactics and bad police management. There was no hostage involved, no need to negotiate!

PS A member of my family was a sniper in the army – I am not without some understanding of what is involved
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May 10, 2009 11:36am
AG

reddy,
“Obama is a fraud and a gangster who scammed and faked and defrauded and gangsterised his way to power on the back of the simplistic slogan “change and hope” when all he’s brought is the same old same old rusted and decrepit soviet socialist/ communist ideas and definitely no damn hope.”

He won. You lost (even if only vicariously). Masticate upon that.
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May 10, 2009 11:38am
Redbaiter

“He won. You lost.”

Naaah, he cheated, like all of you amoral commies always do. With some luck, he’ll be disqualified.
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May 10, 2009 11:47am
AG

“Naaah, he cheated, like all of you amoral commies always do. With some luck, he’ll be disqualified.”

As gracious as a Chelsea supporter.

Disqualified by whom, pray tell? Surely you’re still not hoping for the Supreme Court to steal you ANOTHER election? Isn’t one a decade enough?
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May 10, 2009 11:55am
reid

AG, if he wasn’t born in the US, he can’t be Pres. Simple as that. It’s not a partisan issue.
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May 10, 2009 12:00pm
getstaffed

…and if he wasn’t born in the US, that reality would be trivial compared to the decpetion that has been committed.
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May 10, 2009 12:18pm
Tuija

As gracious as a Chelsea supporter<
hey I take exception to that :- )
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May 10, 2009 12:29pm
cha

AG, if he wasn’t born in the US, he can’t be Pres. Simple as that. It’s not a partisan issue.

Had he won the election, being born in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936 the natural born citizen or native born citizen issue could well have been a problem for McCain
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May 10, 2009 12:51pm
MT_Tinman

Democracymum, the gentleman wasn’t using his body at the time so I suggest the priority was to ensure there wasn’t yet another unused body created by any attempt to claim the first one.

The only message I can figure that has been given the criminal fraternity is one that states “if you’re going to fire upon police dictate your will first”.
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May 10, 2009 12:59pm
Adolf Fiinkensein

cha, you are flat out wrong. There was never any issue with McCain. Just another falsehood dreamed up by the Democrats and pushed by their antique media hand maidens.
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May 10, 2009 1:00pm
PaulL

How long does it take to get a LAV? I presume it came from Waioru. And they drive at, what, 80kms on the open road. A damn sight less I should imagine on the Napier-Taupo highway. There are some limitations on what is physically possible…
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May 10, 2009 1:08pm
Tauhei Notts

MOTHERS’ DAY
I heard on the radio that somebody nominated Tariana Turia as Mother of the Year.
No matter how many rapes you commit or bashings you do she will always be able to forgive you.
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May 10, 2009 1:14pm
lloydois

Still banging on about the bleeding birth certificate! Some people sure as hell don’t move on in a hurry, it’s not difficult to see why the Republicans have been so comprehensively sidelined.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/05/07/lyons/

The more they whine the sillier they look. Some luck indeed Redbaiter.
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May 10, 2009 1:15pm
Inventory2

Change of tack – did anyone else see the article on Nai Yin Xue’s latest legal aid rort in the SST this morning and wonder what the heck the Legal Services Agency is up to even giving him and his lawyer the time of day?

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2009/05/why.html
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May 10, 2009 1:25pm
cha

Because he lost the election we’ll never know will we Adolf and as for the ‘Nirthers’, I quite like Charles Johnsons’ view.
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May 10, 2009 1:27pm
Jack5

Another Sunday bone to chew on folks.

Am I alone in thinking the mainstream media (MSM) continue veering to the left, and that this deserves the blame for some of their decline rather than the internet being entirely the cause?

Here’s an example. Former Listener staffer Philip Matthews in the Saturday Christchurch Press wrote a long piece on local MP Gerry Brownlee. It spread over three pages.

In a sort of blurb above Matthews’ article, Brownlee is described as a “former carpenter and school teacher who failed UE twice”.

Quotes about Brownlee in a side piece are led by: “A nice guy but completely useless,” attributed to “property developer and former constituent Dave Henderson.”

No mention is made of the current sorry state of Henderson’s fortunes, nor of the fact that he has been a controversial character both in business and as a member of the Christchurch spin-off from Scientology, ZAP. Nor any mention that Henderson has been a sponsor of ACT in Christchurch, surely relevant to an article about a prominent local National Party politician.

Seven of the nine quotes in this side piece seem to be anti-Brownlee, only two obviously favouring him.

Matthews in the article proper quotes extensively from Horrible Hager’s the Hollow Men, including purported emails mentioning Brownlee.

Matthews quotes purported National insider Matthew Hooton at length while giving only one paragraph to our own DP Farrar. Matthews labels Hooton a lobbyist while calling David Farrar a “right wing commentator”. Hooton is the “National” guy that left organs such as Labour Radio like on their nine to noon show. Hooton is often in a segment jointly with Laile Harre. So perhaps Matthews is right on this and Hooton isn’t right wing.

Matthews resurrects the incident where Brownlee called Tamihere a “black fella”. Matthews doesn’t recount the nasty barb from Tamihere which sparked this unacceptable retort from Brownlee. It was about Brownlee’s weight, and big, big people can be hurt as much by barbs about weight as people can be hurt by racist ones.

A left-wing hatchet job in a once conservative newspaper.
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May 10, 2009 1:37pm
Michael E

“A nice guy but completely useless” is a quote from ‘Be Very Afraid’ – written over ten years ago. The journalist didn’t bother getting the quote from Hendo, just used an old quote without checking if it was still his opinion. (Although it probably is.)

The problem the Police have is they don’t have any exemption in law any greater then you and I. If they threw a bunch of grenades into Molenaar’s house to kill him they could face a murder charge. However, if they throw teargas in and then shoot him if he presents a weapon on the way out they would be okay (as was done with David Gray). The problem is getting close enough to the house to execute that plan.
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May 10, 2009 2:50pm
Owen McShane

Get use to Super Mayor Mike Lee.

If there is a contest between John Banks and Mike Lee (the ex port trade union rep who is now chair of the ARC) my politically savvy colleagues suggest Mike Lee will win for the same reason Red Ken won the Lord Mayoralty of Super City of London.

Regional councils tend to the left/green of City councils and city councils tend to be to the left of small district Councils.

One reason is they are more remote from their electorates.
And guess which candidate would be favoured by TVOne, Radio NZ, Chris Laidlaw, Rudman, and anyone else you care to think of.

John seems to think that Auckland City is going to take over the other councils whereas the Auckland City is wiped out and a brand new beast is born, which will cover the same territory as the ARC. So why should the political bias of the new Super city be any different to the ARC. Most regional councils are Green/left. Look at Canterbury.

Please explain why the Nat/ACt government is so keen to have over Auckland region to the left. Mayve Red Ken himself will come and stand.
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May 10, 2009 2:52pm
bchapman

Owen, predicting who will win the election next year is a bit like predicting who will win next years Oscars. There is just too much water to go under the bridge. I suspect it will have a lot to do with how everybody is feeling about the whole amalgamation process at the time, ie are we being shafted? Is too much power been given away to vested interests?
What is each candidate’s perceived role in this. Look for the candidates to become supporters of devolution of power and how far Hide/Key go to placating them.
The irony here is that the more they go along with the devolution of power locally, the more chance the candidates of their choice will get to lead the regional government.
The other issue that will emerge is how much power Wellington is prepared to give over. See the Ralstan article in todays Sunday Herald.
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May 10, 2009 3:16pm
Adolf Fiinkensein

cha, you dolt. Go and check out the US constitution viz a viz children of US servicemen born on overseas military bases.
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May 10, 2009 3:16pm
jarbury

Mike Lee would make a far better super-city mayor than John Banks.
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May 10, 2009 3:42pm
bchapman

Jarbury, so would 95% of the population.
BTW The Star Trek movie is good, especially the sword fight above Vulcan, always though Sulu had some hidden talents.
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May 10, 2009 4:20pm
backster

JARBURY:…..The underclass and trade unionists will agree with you. The ratepayers won’t.
………The thing that amazes me is that the big business backers of Hussein OBAMA didn’t expect him to keep faith with his Musso/Communists roots. It seemed plain to people outside the States that he would. His election was due to a combination of mass hysteria generated by left wing celebrities and pseudo generational racial guilt mainly of the young, but also of a nature that afflicts our politicians once they achieve power. The pending depression, together with the fraudulent global warming taxation tyranny may provide him with a pathway for the conversion of America to Socialism.
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May 10, 2009 4:29pm
jarbury

Jarbury, so would 95% of the population.

That is very true…
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May 10, 2009 4:53pm
Glutaemus Maximus

So it looks like the Labour Ministers, MP’s and Peers have had it well large!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8042214.stm

Just make me wonder what the Labour Party here have rorted from the taxpayer, apart from Herr Clark buying her job at the UN by exceeding by a large way the per capita contribution to the UNDP.

Just sick, and bad and wrong. So what have they taken in excess of the allowable expenses. My guess is that it will be a revelation?
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May 10, 2009 8:13pm
Ross Miller

billyborker … is it true you were deported from NZL back across the ditch for telling lies … and other things?

If you weren’t you should have been.
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May 10, 2009 8:35pm
Whafe

It would be hellishly frightening to know what has been claimed for allowable expenses….. Like business’s, these government workers over the past decade have raped and pillaged expenses. It is astounding what business’s are finding now that the purse strings need to be reeled in…. It will only get worse what is found over the next year or so……

Nothing truer than “when the going gets tough, the tough get going”

Useless people in business’s have perceived they have done well in jobs / roles over the last decade, now as the economic environment gets tougher etc, they will be well and truly “useless”
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May 10, 2009 8:54pm
ephemera

@Owen Macshane,

I don’t mean to nit-pick, but Ken Livingstone was not Lord Mayor of London.

The Lord Mayor presides over ‘the city’, and London’s financial institutions, as opposed to the Mayor of greater London, which was red ken.
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May 10, 2009 10:50pm
Owen McShane

You are quite right – I had in mind the original to call our Mayor of the Super City the Lord Mayor.
I was trying to draw attention to the equivalence rather than the reality, but inserting Lord only misleads so it was a mistake..
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May 11, 2009 9:18am

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