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May 28, 2009 7:50pm by David Farrar

A Maori City Councillor writes

It would be very interesting to know if the sucess rate in Auckland for Maori candidates differs greatly from non-Maori candidates.

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Comment193

NZ Politics
Auckland Council
Maori Seats
Toa Greening

Comments (193)

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reid

“and even your last comment reid, “If Maori can succeed” “If Asians succeeded” you just like to lump people together dont you! Your generalisations are astounding!”

Well Kingi, here’s a hint for you in future.

If someone does succeed and another doesn’t, it usually depends not on circumstance, but on their attitude. Everyday, millions of people do extraordinary things that sometimes astound even they themselves. Everyday, millions of other people give up and fail. Guess what both sets of people have in common? They think.

The people that think they will win, do. The people that think they won’t, don’t.

The amount of times force majeur enters into this equation is limited to the accidents of fate that physically prevent the person from succeeding. Perhaps they miss the bus to that interview, perhaps they get hit by a bus. In all the rest of the cases, it’s attitude alone that determines the outcome.

So you see Kingi, everyone’s fate is in their own hands. Lefties have particular trouble understanding this because they are taught from birth that no-one is ever responsible for their own fate, that rather, it’s circumstances that control people’s destinies. People, according to lefties, are helpless automatons swept up by forces beyond their control and tossed hither and yon by circumstance. This is the basis of lefty social engineering and its poisonous application is responsible for more unhappiness than any other force known to man, including warfare. The fallacy of this proposition is so mind-bogglingly obvious that one would think lefties would number in only the few hundreds worldwide. Unfortunately there are millions of you and since you’re not all completely thick I can only conclude that you’ve been sucked into believing that your approach is the only humane way to go and that’s why you guys keep advocating it. Shame really, for while your hearts in the right place, your mind is elsewhere.

The point Kingi is, don’t treat people as victims. Instead, give them self-belief, from that comes confidence, from confidence comes results, from results comes change in circumstance. That’s the only thing that will pull Maori out of their plight.
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May 29, 2009 12:31am
paradigm

Hey Kingi, since Maori cant be lopped into one basket as you put it, and each persons circumstances are different, how about we don’t just give funding to Maori just for being Maori. How about we give a hand up to people who are suffering hard times. Now watch this magic: if more Maori are suffering, a higher proportion of Maori get aid – which should help Maori “close the gaps”. But this way doesn’t automatically associate all Maori with failure. Such a policy also passes a key test for me: I take two people in poverty to equal degrees, one Maori, the other non Maori; they both get exactly the same amount of aid and thus the policy is 0% racist. Incidently, this is what Don Brash suggested. For some reason he was branded a racist for doing so.

Kingi’s silly argument aside, if this guy Toa runs for the new auckland council in an at large seat, he’ll get a vote from me. If he runs in my area he’d probably get a vote from me as well. So there we go a white male is prepared to vote for a Maori councillor. Take from that what you will, but I’d suggest chance of a Maori getting elected is >>0. In fact people are so desperate to hear a Maori politican take a mainstream view that if he did so, he’d probably get voted for over non-maori using the same platform.
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May 29, 2009 2:26am
goodgod

Seems like Kingi has to get in touch with his inner maori – his mana – like his ancestors did. The ones who navigated across oceans in open outrigger canoes; arrived in a new cold country with just a few tools, some seed, and half of their number sick and dying. They cleaned up their corner of the world with miltary power and built and enforced a recognised culture with the technology of the day.

So now it’s a new day, with new technology and new challenges. Don’t let your ancestors down, Kingi.
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May 29, 2009 7:06am
expat

Kingi – I agree with grumpyoldhori cause I like the cut of his jib.

You are talking like a Kaumatua justifying his 100k fee for cleansing the spirits from a state highway project – without much logic or credibility. eh.
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May 29, 2009 7:13am
david

I might have missed something in this superb discussion but I think Peta Sharples let the cat out the other day when discussing Maori representation when he said something like ” If Maori stand for election, no-one will vote for them so they must be appointed.”

What this says to me is
1. Maori members of our community are not interested in democracy
2. The tribal structure is alive and well
3. A chiefly class of Moari continue to rule the roost
4. No-one else really cares about Maori representation except those who will be appointed as representatives
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May 29, 2009 8:15am
big bruv

Kingi

“However I believe in my convictions strongly, and I will defend and argue them strongly”

Good, how about starting by telling us what those bloody convictions are?, all you have done so far is talk in slogans.
What ARE the bloody issues?

“I am not so arrogant however that I don’t appreciate differing views,”

Really?, so far you have refused to even consider any other point of view preferring to hide behind “the issues” without telling us what those bloody “issues” are.

“however if those views are simply hateful, racist and vitriolic splurges, I tend to ignore them.”

Translated………anything I do not agree with or cannot effectively counter I will seek to shut down by labelling it as racist.
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May 29, 2009 8:33am
stephen

david (8:15am), Willie Jackson said the same thing in the Central Leader a few weeks back except he also actually said Pakeha were too racist to vote for Maori, that’s why we need seats. Shiiit.
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May 29, 2009 8:43am
bwakile

I hope that Maori wake up to the fact that after 150 years of opportunity in a 1st world country, they are their own worst enemies. If they carry on with Kingi’s mentality for the next 150 years they are certainly consigning themselves to the scrapheap of history.
To think that the gravy train we have been living under will carry on for ever is just plain dumb.

The only thing that will prosper is hard work and education.
As the Asian immigrants are out their proving every day.

Anything else is a long term death warrant. And that goes for every race.
Don’t expect someone else to butter your bread.
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May 29, 2009 8:58am
Ms.

I am a bit puzzled with this thread. I thought all New Zealanders had access to the same wonderful opportunities and choices?

What is the problem?
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May 29, 2009 9:08am
Ms.

So when things are looking really bad
And you’re thinking of giving it a way
Remember, New Zealand’s a cracker
And I reckon come what may
If things get appallingly bad
And we’re all under constant attack
Remember, we want to see good clean ball
And for god’s sakes, feed your backs
We don’t how fortunate we are to have this place
We don’t know how propitious are the circumstances.

We don’t know how lucky we are, mate
We don’t know how lucky we are,

We don’t know how lucky we are, get it right
We just don’t realise how fortunate we are
We have no idea, the luck, we possess, collectively
We just don’t know how lucky we all are. Full stop
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May 29, 2009 9:11am
Brian Smaller

Kinigi – your male ancestors had the vote in New Zealand before mine did. Mine did not qualify for the vote until universal male franchise was introduced because they did not have the requisite property entitlements.
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May 29, 2009 9:12am
Murray

The problem Ms is that some people don’t like the idea of a level playing field. In fact they are terrified of it.

Who would have thought that we would have some much in common with South Africa in the end.
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May 29, 2009 9:14am
Linda Reid

You don’t get it guys. Kingi wants ‘right thinking’ Maori elected – the ones not many people would vote for. Toa is just not acceptable to them as he is not Maori enough. He doesn’t support the whole ‘Maori as victims’ story so is a traitor to his people. Totally unacceptable to Pita and Hone and the rest. The only way they can get ‘real’ Maori into power is through special reserved seats.
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May 29, 2009 9:15am
Brian Smaller

Good to see one Maori (Toa) who’s thinking ahead for once.

Don’t be fooled – there are tens of thousands of Maori who think like Mr Greening. They are the ones who don’t make up the negative statistics applied to Maori that seem to be so beloved of those on the left.
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May 29, 2009 9:19am
Peter

I’d vote for Toa. I’m a white male.

Kingi needs to answer Patrick/Reids question:

“if Maori succeed overseas, which they do, then clearly there is nothing inherent in Maori that prevents them from succeeding.

Secondly, if Asians succeed here, which they do, then clearly there is nothing inherent in the NZ environment that prevents anyone from succeeding here, regardless of whether they are Pakeha or anything else.

So why don’t Maori succeed?”
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May 29, 2009 9:35am
Murray

Actually Linda, we DO get it. That too terrifies the Kingis of this world.

Peter, perhaps the best and brightest are the ones who went overseas. Certainly a huge proportion of Maori have moved to Oz and are doing very nicely for themselves. My brother couldn’t get half here of what hes collecting there at the moment.
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May 29, 2009 9:44am
Brian Smaller

Murray – when I lived in london in the 80s I used to work for this Maori guy who owned three pubs and a land-scaping business. I remember him telling me that getting away from NZ was the best thing he ever did because he was away from all the negativity he had to put up with from his family for trying to be a ‘success’ in the western sense of success.
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May 29, 2009 10:04am
Murray

Says it all really Brian. The only people who want to tear Maori down for succeeding are other Maori by the look of it.
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May 29, 2009 10:16am
James

Kingi: “and even your last comment reid, “If Maori can succeed” “If Asians succeeded” you just like to lump people together dont you! Your generalisations are astounding!”

Says then collectivist who bleats on about a non existent abstraction called “Maori”. Quit your racist shit Kingi….humnas are individuals….not collectives.Want to see whats really keeping Maori people down…? Look in the mirror.
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May 29, 2009 12:24pm
david

Big ups to Kingi for at least attempting to defend the proposal for seperate representation for indigenous people.

What everyone else doesn’t get is that it does not need to be defended because as I read the lines and between the lines:
1. It is
2. Te Tiriti says it is
3. We are the Tangata Whenua end of discussion. (sing after me: “this land is our land, this land is our land from North Cape Headland, to Stewart Island)
4. Maori are FIRST NATIONS therefore there can be no argument. (we were here first and you remain guests in our country. It will never be your country regardless of how many locally born generations you represent. We would kick you out if we could but there are too many of you)
5 White people have subjected Moari to hideous abuse over decades and it is time for retribution. (we demand a say in running the government and councils as of right – not as representatives of anyone)
6. The world has not changed since 1800. Success is not possible through a citizen’s own efforts or through the ambition of himself or his whanau. (victim mentality and demands for extra funding to support a relatively small but totally disfunctional segment of “society)
7. It is society’s (rich racist white people who have subjected Maori to unspeakable abuse over decades) fault that the whanau have no ambition for themselves or for their children (the problems with crime, gangs, drugs, child abuse, obesity do not reflect the standards of the influencers by and large)
8 Maori live in a feudal society whereby the chief “owns: everything and the rest of the tribe (iwi/hapu) do what they are told, when they are told and are not permitted to think for themselves, set standards of behaviour for whanau or other tribe members or have ambition for their families. (No one votes but thousands can be got off their arses to march on a Hikoi.WTF) We have carefully hidden this “chieftanness” and privilege of the few behind a smokescreen of Kaumatuas, Trustees of tribal trusts, rituals, a King and all that surrounds that role, spokesmen and activists. Meantime many, many people of Maori descent want nothing to do with it, don’t ask for a share of the settlement claims for a variety of reasons but commonly because they don’t think that they deserve a handout, are making their own ways, are bringing up relatively stable families and educating their kids to get on in the real world.

Frankly it is no wonder that many of us have difficulty with the concepts that are driving this matter and how they can be supported by thinking and educated people who have supposedly developed a refined ability of critical thought and analysis
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May 29, 2009 12:25pm
Komata

david

I agree totally, but you have IMHO left out a few additional ones:

IF you are a Maori and dare to get educated and advance yourself, we’ll beat the living daylights out of you because ‘your’e not Maori enough and have sold-out (betrayed) the tribe’.

If you are a Maori and DO succeed and do well for yourself we’ll beat the living daylights out of you because ‘your’e not Maori enough and have sold-out (betrayed) the tribe’.

If,in spite of all of the above beatings you STILL insist on advancing yourself, we’ll declare you to be a ‘Bounty Bar’ (White on the inside, Brown on the outside) and isolate you completely and utterly – and than come around and trash your house, harrass your kids and turn the ‘bro’s on you.

And IF you STILL somehow actually manage to succeed (even in spite of what has gone before), we’ll then claim you as one of our own and tell everyone what a wonderful example of your tribe and culture you are and how PROUD we are of you, and what a role- model you are for all (especially young) Maori. (A ‘koha’ of the ‘folding-stuff’ seems to speed the process, I’ve noticed)

Believe me, I’m NOT joking!!

(BTW, has anyone else noticed that Kingi hasn’t responded to any of the last 20-odd posts. Doesn’t that strike you as somewhat strange?)
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May 29, 2009 1:24pm
Kingi

You all seem to think that someone by Maori seeking rights that should be according to tangata whenua, this somehow means we are simply asking for handouts and are “consigning ourselves to the scrap heap.” I love how you feign your “concern” for Maori, when in reality the right hates the ideas of Maori seats because YOU WILL NEVER GET PEOPLE ELECTED TO HOLD THEM! Why do you think National wanted to get rid of the seats!? Because National has never and will never hold them, that’s seven seats in Parliament they will never be able to get their mits on and its irks them to no end.

So what do the right do. They make this a race issue. They say, “oh well, Maori should be able to get elected on their merits like everyone else.” Sorry, but Maori aren’t everyone else. We are Tangata Whenua, at the hands of the British our populations were decimated by pakeha introduced disease that we had no immunities against. Our lands were corruptly taken away.

However this is about Maori Seats on the Auckland Super City council. We need to contextualise this discussion. Are maori significant economic stakeholder via Ngati Whatua and Tainui holdings?Yes. Should there be a guaranteed representative to provide the voice for these stakeholders. Yes.

Majorities can never be expected to protect minority rights. Democracy is about protecting its most vulnerable. Much to the ire of the right.
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May 29, 2009 1:25pm
Kingi

Oh James, this may be an alien term to you but its called ethnicity. As hard as that is for you to understand, people have DIFFERENT ethnicity’s. Komata, I don’t know who you are talking for but it certainly isn’t me.

And please don’t attempt to tar all Maori with your particularly warped view of what Maori do. Ask Kingi Tuheitia or Rangatira Tumu Te Heuheu, and I don’t think THEY would agree with your assertions.
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May 29, 2009 1:29pm
Brian Smaller

(BTW, has anyone else noticed that Kingi hasn’t responded to any of the last 20-odd posts. Doesn’t that strike you as somewhat strange?)

Not really. People do have to sleep, eat, live life and work away from their computers you know.
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May 29, 2009 1:37pm
Nomestradamus

Komata:

(BTW, has anyone else noticed that Kingi hasn’t responded to any of the last 20-odd posts. Doesn’t that strike you as somewhat strange?)

Yes. Kingi hasn’t responded to any of the last 20-odd posts – much easier to hide behind the cloak-and-dagger argument of racism, apparently.

Kingi:

Oh James, this may be an alien term to you but its called ethnicity. As hard as that is for you to understand, people have DIFFERENT ethnicity’s.

Oh really? So why did you say this yesterday (further up the thread):

and even your last comment reid, “If Maori can succeed” “If Asians succeeded” you just like to lump people together dont you! Your generalisations are astounding!

It would do wonders for your credibility, Kingi, if you could at least be consistent on the same thread.
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May 29, 2009 1:39pm
Murray

Ok we have serious disconect here. Kingi talks about all Maori but no one else is allowed to touch it.

Get a grip kingi, you only talk for you. We elect people to represent us, sometimes we get the person we want, sometimes we don’t. We call it democracy you call it racist because you don’t get a free pass.

The fish you’re peddling smells a bit off frankly.
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May 29, 2009 1:40pm
david

Komata, frankly I have difficulty believing it is that bad but then I am not a direct participant in that part of life.
My parents and wider family raised me with an expectation that I would need to work hard, get educated and make my own way. They felt that the best gift they could give me was an education – certainly I was right not to expect a fortune to be left behind.
But I have assisted staff members to create secret bank accounts into which some pay might be diverted for the kids uniforms and groceries as the pay packet was snatched at the factory gate on payday and I have taken bruised and battered wives for medical treatment the day after payday so have witnessed the effects of how anything can be fixed with a good bashing. (sarc) Once Were Warriors in reality. BTW I’m sure Alan Duff was using it to try and bring the worst of human behabviour into the light but it seems to have turned into some sort of twisted badge of courage – how did that happen?

Kingi,

As racist and bigoted as some of my comments may have seemed to you, I am only reflecting back to you how this whole thing is coming across to those who are not spritually committed. NZ has long espoused the seperation of church and state and in the widest sense of church we see no place for spirituality in our political governance. And it is hard not to see a strong element of spirituality mixed up in the representation issue or is that just another way of clouding the matter in fog and avoiding the hard questions.
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May 29, 2009 1:52pm
Kingi

MY credibility is completely intact. You miss my point, what I am saying is that simply because one person who is asian, or one person who is Maori succeeds, can’t in of itself be used as an argument to say well therefore ALL Maori’s and Asians should therefore succeed because this doesn’t take into account circumstances, or the individuals context.

In NEW ZEALAND however the facts show that Maori on average are the most disadvantaged in our society. That is the point. I don’t see how me saying there are different ethnicities is contradicting my point that earlier that by using one example to represent a whole is fallacious when all the stats show Maori in this country are worse off.
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May 29, 2009 1:54pm
Brian Smaller

Kingi – and the point that you are failing to grasp is that it will be individual Maori who improve things, one person at a time – not government, not a hui, not some maori aristocracy born to rule and certainly not people with a pecuniary interest in “race” relations.
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May 29, 2009 2:01pm
Kingi

Sure Brian, but its about giving Maori the OPPORTUNITIES TO DO THAT.
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May 29, 2009 2:03pm
Nomestradamus

Kingi:

In NEW ZEALAND however the facts show that Maori on average are the most disadvantaged in our society. That is the point. I don’t see how me saying there are different ethnicities is contradicting my point that earlier that by using one example to represent a whole is fallacious when all the stats show Maori in this country are worse off.

Well that’s a fallacious argument. You’re using aggregated statistics to argue that all Maori in “this country” are worse off. But then you breathlessly decry those who lump “all Maori” into one basket. You should try stand-up comedy sometime.
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May 29, 2009 2:04pm
Murray

I don’t know what comments you’ve been reading Kingi your cred started at zero and started digging from there.
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May 29, 2009 2:07pm
big bruv

Kingi

Your credibility is in tatters and will not improve until you stop talking in slogans.

Please tell us what the “issues” are, only then can you hope to convince some of us with open minds why we should have apartheid seats on the Auckland city council.
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May 29, 2009 2:08pm
Brian Smaller

Sure Brian, but its about giving Maori the OPPORTUNITIES TO DO THAT.

The opportunities are there. Please show me where the opportunity to read a book is not given to Maori. Or the opportunity to try to end the day knowing more stuff than you started the day knowing. Or to have ambition to be better tomorrow than you were today?

While you believe that your life is being held back by forces outside your control you will never have any control of your own.
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May 29, 2009 2:13pm
Murray

I think we’re looking at the incredible victim mentality in action. Able to deflect reality with a single denial.
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May 29, 2009 2:14pm
Kiwi Dave

Claims of Maori success overseas and Asian success in NZ made in this thread are entirely anecdotal. Does anyone actually have hard statistics which would enable valid comparisons with the countries of origin? Furthermore, people who choose to leave a country for another are by that very act a self-selected group who may well be significantly different in other ways from those who stay behind. So, Patrick/Reid’s questions, while ones we should try to answer, might not have the answers some people expect.

Of course, the above reservations in no way validate Kingi’s notions that his ancestry guarantees him automatic rights of representation others don’t have, that he can treat Maoris as an undifferentiated group when it suits his argument and exceptional individuals when it doesn’t suit, his highly arguable Treaty interpretations, his willingness to lump all Pakehas together, and his refusal to acknowledge that Pakehas have voted for non-Paheka candidates.

If his concern is for poverty, then, as others on this thread have pointed out, this is not an exclusively Maori problem and guaranteed Maori representation on the super-city council is unlikely to solve the Maori component of this problem. My unreliable recollection of 20 year old statistics is that the majority of poor NZers are not Maori.
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May 29, 2009 2:18pm
Kingi

issues? I have said the what they are numerous times.

They are the fact that across every socio-economic indicator, from life expectancy, to education, to healthcare, to household income, Maori are worse off.

Now you will all come back as you always have to say, well if they “tried harder” then they wouldn’t be so bad off. However this is based upon the inane belief that we live in an equitable society where every has access to exactly the same opportunities. Unfortunately we DON’T. So in order to make society more equitable, we have affirmative action to give those at the bottom the opportunity to succeed.
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May 29, 2009 2:25pm
Murray

Maori representation is Australian prisons Dave.
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May 29, 2009 2:38pm
Brian Smaller

So then Kingi – you are bascailly parroting the left wing play book, chapter and verse.

Tell me how Maori dont have equal opportunity to say, grow fresh veges for themselves if they can’t afford supermarket prices (most poor Maori in my city live in houses with dirty great sections). Education – it is free. Sit in a class and listen to the teacher. Why are so many Maori kids not listening to their teachers (60% Maori, 40% non-Maori kids coming out of secondary school abject failures), Life expectancy – stop smoking and eating crap food (especially the first bit – maori smoke as a proportion far more than non-Maori). The list goes on – individual Maori have to take the initiaitve as individuals.

If a smoking, chops and spuds eating, non-book-reading maori were to say, stop smoking, eat more balanced diet and perhaps go to the library then perhaps that person’s kids might think – hey, if it is good enough for Mum (or Dad).

Affirmative action has never helped any group better themselves. How about at least one example of how an entire people have been lifted out of poverty, bad socio-ecnomic indicators etc by affirmative action. Doesn’t happen. It encourages dependence and give a person someone/thing to blame when life goes against them.
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May 29, 2009 2:39pm
Kingi

“highly arguable treaty interpretations” bahahaha.

Maybe Dave you should give the Waitangi Tribunal a call. They might give you some education on the treaty and its application in a modern day context.
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May 29, 2009 2:40pm
Murray

Maybe Kingi can tell us why so many chiefs were fluent in English, signed the English version after discussing it all night but suddenly didn’t know what sovereignty and decided it meant partnership.
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May 29, 2009 2:46pm
Brian Smaller

You mean in a lefty ‘it can mean whatever we want it to mean” modern context?
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May 29, 2009 2:49pm
Nomestradamus

Kingi:

So in order to make society more equitable, we have affirmative action to give those at the bottom the opportunity to succeed.

*Sigh*

You’ve really dug yourself into a six-foot hole. You say “opportunity to succeed” but you’re openly advocating a rigged poll that guarantees a successful outcome for Maori. If your real concern is the poverty statistics, as you claim, then what you’re really arguing is that the poor should have guaranteed political representation (in addition to the same guaranteed voting right that everyone else has). But, as Kiwi Dave has so rightly pointed out, poverty is not an exclusively Maori problem. So why do you try to defend preferential political representation for Maori on this tenuous basis?

I’ll hand back your shovel if you promise to stop digging.
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May 29, 2009 2:53pm
getstaffed

issues? I have said the what they are numerous times … across every socio-economic indicator.. blah blah … education .. blah blah …

No Kingi – the main issue faced by Maori is you, and people like you.
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May 29, 2009 2:53pm
expat

Lets be honest, the treaty is an impediment to modern New Zealand moving forward. The sooner the whole thing is closed down and it becomes a nice warm fuzzy the better. It seems however those in the grievance industry don’t want the giving to stop.
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May 29, 2009 2:54pm
big bruv

Kingi

“They are the fact that across every socio-economic indicator, from life expectancy, to education, to healthcare, to household income, Maori are worse off.”

Now we are getting somewhere, now, how about telling us what the cause of these issue’s are?
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May 29, 2009 2:59pm
James

“Oh James, this may be an alien term to you but its called ethnicity. As hard as that is for you to understand, people have DIFFERENT ethnicity’s. Komata, I don’t know who you are talking for but it certainly isn’t me.”

An ethnicty is still not an existing entity….which as only individual human beings are means only those individuals have rights…not your non existent abstraction ‘Maori”.

As others have said you are all over the place with your argument……
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May 29, 2009 3:14pm
virtualmark

Kingi, respect for commenting on this thread and sticking to your guns.

Picking up on your comments about “across every socio-economic indicator, from life expectancy, to education, to healthcare, to household income, Maori are worse off”. I don’t disagree with you, but it’s always struck me that there’s some uncomfortable truths beneath those indicators that Maori just don’t want to confront.

When you measure indicators like life expectancy, education, healthcare, household income (and I’d add crime as well) then you are comparing Maori levels of achievement with those of the “white males” you referred to last night.

The difficulty is though that first-world western levels of lifestyle come from first-world western culture, value and behaviours.

The huge problem facing Maori (and all other “first nations” people) is how to balance, on the one hand, achieving those first-world outcomes with, on the other hand, staying true to Maori culture, values and behaviours.

White males mastered agriculture, metallurgy, clothing, medicine, chemistry, writing, music, architecture, steam, the atom, electronics and a thousand other items I could list. Maori (and Polynesians) mastered fire. Maori culture is a tribal culture from the Stone Age. No tribal culture, and certainly no Stone Age culture, can deliver first-world lifestyles.

So Maori face a predicament of having to either isolate themselves in their own historical culture, at the expense of ghetto-ising their lives, or adopt Western culture and values that will deliver the socio-economic outcomes you referred to but at the expense of losing their history. There’s a really hard choice to be made about where on that continuum Maori want to be. I have never seen Maoridom openly grapple with that trade-off.

If you want western levels of life expectancy, education, healthcare etc then you need to become brown Westerners. But I suspect being brown Westerners isn’t acceptable to Maori, and so I believe Maori will always have less-than-first-world levels of achievement on those socio-economic indicators.
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May 29, 2009 3:16pm
david

An interesting perspective Virtualmark.

Hadn’t thought of it in quite that way before.
So what you are saying is that the solution to the problem as defined is that there is no solution.

We need to re-define the problem.
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May 29, 2009 3:24pm
Kingi

Virtual I simply can not agree with a viewpoint that states it is culture that determines a people’s success. You seem to believe that Maori need to give up their own culture in order for them to succeed! Are you serious? Are you really of the belief that one culture must prevail and that all others that are different must somehow give up their own identity and simply adopt another culture because it forms the majority? Dear lord! Heaven forbid diversity right? Heaven forbid other cultures and points of view that somehow come into conflict with western ways of thinking!

I am the first to say that some aspects of cultures, and I’m saying cultures in general not just maori culture, have their flaws. For example in Maoridom, the fact that men always sit on the paepae not Women, is something that I am opposed to in that it degrades Women to being somehow lower than men. However cultural shifts take time, change in general takes time.

Upon what basis do you claim that achieving first world outcomes and staying true to Maori culture is mutually exclusive? Why are they even within the same sphere’s? A poor Maori childs ability to succeed in life has less to do with Maori culture and more to do with whether or not he/she has the opportunities to succeed in life.

I can’t believe that you would so naively say something like “brown westerners.”
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May 29, 2009 3:33pm
paradigm

“They are the fact that across every socio-economic indicator, from life expectancy, to education, to healthcare, to household income, Maori are worse off.”

Kingi finally gives us the *issues*, so lets deal with these one by one:

Education
– Maori have the same access to primary and secondary school as “everyone else”. Due to their lower average socioeconomic status, they are more elligable for state help in paying associated fees. One might argue that tribal Maori have less access to schools because they live away from major centres – where the educational facilities are better. This arguement is, however, flawed. Maori who choose to live in the middle of nowhere will inevitably get poorer access to education. Choosing to live in an area of your ancestors is a luxury. It has a price. The number of Maori who achieve qualifications in highschool is somewhat limited. However this is a matter of achievement, not opportunity. This probably is the biggest factor in low Maori involvement in tertiary education.

For tertiary education, one might argue that Maori are less likely to be able to afford tuition. However student loans and allowances, should alliviate the problem, at least to the point where it is no worse than any other cash strapped student. There are an enormous number of Maori only scholarships available, and many departments in our universities scale up your grades if you are Maori. It is not an exageration to say that if I was a Maori, I could have advanced to post graduate study without attending any lectures. As noted maori tend to struggle to get university entrence qualifications, this was delt with previously.

Household Income
Obviously if Maori are more poorly educated they aren’t going to get as high paid jobs. But as I showed above, Maori have an easier time in the education system than non-maori. For some reason they just make foolish choices that lead to under-education. Also if you choose to live in the middle of nowhere, its going to be more difficult to find a job than in Auckland, let alone Wellington where you can live off a state job (the bureacrats love to employ Maori)

Healthcare
What are the common illnesses Maori suffer? Diabetes, Obesity, Smoking related diseases? All of these tend to be self inflicted. Many of the other illnesses result from a lack of taking freely available immunisation. Reduced life expectancy is just a follow on from all this. Interestingly there is a health budget for Maori. Is there a health budget for “everyone else”? No there is a general health budget, some of which is spent on Maori as well. So Maori are actually getting a larger share of the health budget than everyone else.

So what is the factor that is preventing Maori from doing as well as “everyone else”. Could it be that their is some mass conspiracy to keep them down, perpetrated by “the man”? Or could it be that a culture of contempt for education, admiration of brute strength and intimidation and focusing on skills no longer relevant in modern society could be to blame?

“However this is based upon the inane belief that we live in an equitable society where every has access to exactly the same opportunities. ”

Lets be frank here: either list the specific opportunities maori lose out to “everyone else” in or admit you are wrong and buzz off. I await your reply.

And don’t use the work equity. It is a weak and nebulous term.
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May 29, 2009 3:48pm
virtualmark

Kingi, we will just need to agree to disagree then.

As I said in my earlier post, Western culture has invested thousands of years in achieving those standards of health, education etc that you refer to. They flow from Western values such as the value of the individual, the rational scientific approach to discovery, the constant striving to improve health and education. And so on and so on. Westerners didn’t get to the top of your socio-economic indicators by accident. We didn’t win the lottery. We worked at it for thousands of years and we shaped our culture and our values to continually achieve, reinforce and improve those indicators.

Maoridom is a tribal Stone Age culture. I don’t say that with malice, it is just a simple fact. Maori culture, in its fullness, will never deliver Western levels of achievement. It didn’t pre-1840 and it won’t today. You ask for examples … straight off the top of my head how about …

1. Education does not have the same prominence in Maori culture as it does in Western culture.
2. Communal ownership of property in Maoridom will never offer the same incentives for improvement as Western values of individual ownership.
3. Tribalism will never allow Maoridom to maximise the achievement of all of its people, in the same way that the Western values of individual opportunity and responsibility do.
4. Self-destructive lifestyle choices (smoking, drugs, alcoholism, obesity) are more tolerated in Maori culture than in Western culture.

That’s just a few.

FWIW, no I do not believe that all cultures must simply assimilate into the Western culture like some Borg collective from Star Trek. What I am saying though is that if you want to reach Western levels of socio-economic achievement then you need to adopt Western culture, values and behaviours.
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May 29, 2009 3:49pm
Linda Reid

Thanks for hanging around for the debate Kingi.

I think virtualmark has a good point. The most successful culture will always dominate in the end. So how do Maori retain their unique culture, while still achieving first world success as individuals in their own right?
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May 29, 2009 3:51pm
Kingi

Perhaps if it was your culture that was under threat you might view things differently Linda.

I agree with you for once Virtual, we will have to agree to disagree. I suppose we all want people to succeed, we simply disagree on the methods through which that success is to be achieved.
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May 29, 2009 4:15pm
paradigm

Kingi should also consider that your average european culture underwent enormous upheval to get to its current point: One obvious example is it no longer involves riding around on horse-back defending the code of chivalry. Guilds and their master craftsmen gave way to the industrial age. Superstition was thrown out in favour of science. Some asian cultures underwent even more rapid and significant changes. (Japan pretty much modelled its self after a european nation dot for dot, and changed its self so rapidly as to create enormous internal tension). The point is we are not saying Maori culture is anymore inferior than other cultures of a similar period were. Merely that it other cultures have already adapted themselves, and Maoridom has not. Interestingly europeans labeled Maori as “noble” savages during the contact period, because Maori were prepared to adapt themselves, accepting written language and technology. It is a shame that this attitude was somehow lost as it now represents the major barrier to future Maori prosperity.
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May 29, 2009 4:15pm
Komata

Kingi

Ngata, Carolle, Buck and Pomare were all realistic to grasp the fact that the only way that Maori could survive in what they correctly saw as an increasingly British (and consequently Westernised) world was through education, and this was something that they pushed assidiously. The Churches also saw this need and established various boarding schools, (Queen Vic’ Wesley etc) while the state created Native Schools for the same purpose. It was seen that education was crucial to the continued existence of Maori as a group, because otherwise they would become incresingly marginalised and ghetto-ised. Ngata especially pushed very hard for Ngati-Porou to get skilled as quickly as possible.

It was also recognised (and not patrionisingly either, but out of genuine concern) that Maori health and housing was crucial to their survivial and so special medical services evolved, (very) low interest loans were given (and given ONLY to Maori!!) and all in all a huge amount of effort went into providing as much assitance as possible to Maori.

At some pont however, a cancer set in. A lot (note that i ahve NOT said ALL) found it easier to sit around and do nothing – to do very little and to live off the state. I”m not sure when this started but would guess that it was around the late ’70’s when, for their own reasons which had nothing to actually do with Maori per se’, members of various left-wing political groups (yes, even the Labour party) started telling Maori that they were ‘owed’ something.

It should be noted that these actions were primarily aimed at finding away to get at Muldoon and the National Party – maori were just a very convenient lever to use.

Predictably, they sought-out played on Maori grievances and resurrected old, long-dead issues especially about land, to the point that many Maori were persuaded that it was their RIGHT’ to do what they wanted, and to say to the government (indeed any authority – including their own elders, hitherto respected) ‘Up Yours’, with the Treaty being a very useful point- of-reference and fall-back.

This appealed immensely to the younger Maori as it gave legality to their otherwise appalling (and illegal) behaviour and so the ball started rolling.

The hitherto-respected elders could not control the situation, whuich made it worse, and eventually gave up, leaving a new wave of oh so clever Maori radicals increasingly in charge. They of course had little resopect for authority, and this quickly spread throughout Maridom, effectively removing any respect for, or inclination to be obedient to the law, in any form.

It even became ‘cool to be dumb!!

The labour party pandered to this (to get votes – of course) and the situation worsened, to the point where it is now out of control, and all the education-based intents that Ngata et al tried so hard to implement have gone.

Maori cannot blame anyone elser for this debacle – they have done it all themselves, but blaming everyone else has become totaly acceptable and is so much easuer.

Maori DON’T have a grievance against anyone else, they DO have a grievance against their leaders, but until they wake up to that fact and start to do something about it, sadly, little is going to change.

And it is VERY notocable, that the present crop of leaders don’t intend to do anything about it – blaming everyone else is SOOO much easier.

So, Kingi what are YOU going to do to change things?

How are YOU going to improve Maori education – and bring your people into the ‘real’ (21st Century) world?

A lot of us will be very interested in your reply.

Thanks.
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May 29, 2009 4:19pm
big bruv

Kingi

“Perhaps if it was your culture that was under threat”

What possible basis do you have for making this outrageous claim?

As a nation we go out of our way to make sure YOUR culture survives, hell, us tax payers even fund the survival of YOUR culture, had it been left to Maori you would not have any bloody culture at all.

Everywhere one turns we are confronted with Maori culture, indeed many are so arrogant and precious about Maori culture that they demand that the rest of the world takes it seriously, we are even so rude as to export Maori culture overseas and attempt to force it down the throats of the locals.
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May 29, 2009 4:28pm
Patrick Starr

Kingi – the obvious difference between you and the National Front is they are not Maori, Apart from that you have the same goals and say the same things.

“Perhaps if it was your culture that was under threat”

Fuck me – when the white supremacist says that they are considered by everyone to be evil – so why aren’t you?

You Mr Kingi I strongly suspect are dining out on a pretty cushy state funded number? and it is in you interests to keep your people thinking they are downtrodden – keeps you in the funding huh?
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May 29, 2009 5:53pm
Nomestradamus

Important announcement

Kingi has apparently decided not to debate “the issues” on this thread any further. Instead Kingi has decreed (after Kingi’s comments were lifted into today’s general debate thread):

Further to this I take severe objection to using comments of people without their permission to push your own agenda. Common courtesy?

So please get Kingi’s permission before using Kingi’s comments to “push your own agenda”.

That is all 🙂
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May 29, 2009 6:04pm
starboard

Rangi was walkin down the road the other day when he spotted his cuz Kingi comin the other way wearin only one jandle. “Phew cuz how ya goin man” said Rangi….”I see ya lost one of ya jandles”… ” Nah mate” said Kingi..”I found one”…
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May 29, 2009 7:18pm
Steve

One thing is forgotten, Maori are special and deserve more than any other New Zealander.
We have to keep giving and get nothing back other than “you owe us”
Special seats are only for the lazy to sit on.
I owe Maori nothing more than I owe anyone, zilch.
There is a thing called “arse” get off it.
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May 29, 2009 7:29pm
chiz

paradigm:What are the common illnesses Maori suffer? Diabetes, Obesity, Smoking related diseases? All of these tend to be self inflicted.

Not entirely. People with darker skins have problems making vitamin D and around the world we see a constant problem with indigenous and dark-skinned ethnic groups typically having vitamin D levels lower than caucasians. Low vitamin D levels are a risk factor for diabetes and heart disease and there’s even been speculation that low levels might be risk factor for obesity. The net result is that diabetes and heart disease are more common in these groups. Urbanisation, which tends to decrease vitamin D levels in populations, will make the problem even worse.
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May 29, 2009 8:46pm
Robat

It’s always interesting to hear other interpretations regarding the intents of the Waitangi Treaty. Although I wasn’t present at the signing some 150 years ago, I have always been of the opinion the the main intent was to stop the wars.
I assume Kingi also wasn’t present at the signing, so his comments here are based on his personal beliefs from what he’s read or from what he’s been told.
So can someone please explain to me if this Treaty is between the Maori and The Crown, how did the Auckland City Council get involved?
I’m pretty sure there is no guaranteed voice in the Levin Council for one.
Another clarification I need – the water I use comes from rain falling on my roof. Where in this process do Maori fit in with Kingi’s ‘usage rights’ ?
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May 29, 2009 9:13pm
itsallapriori

I think what seems to be missed is the Libertarian related notions of autonomy and self-determination. What is relevant to Maori in this, is the idea that they are entitled by Te Tiriti to rangatiratanga, for Rangatira to protect and command iwi and to provide meaningful opportunities for Maori to express their autonomy and inherent right of self expression.

I know the obvious rebuttal is that some Maori have made meaningful ways of life in the “westernized” world – as a previous post alluded to with the success of Maori in Australia etc. But what remains is the individual’s right to autonomy and self-determination. Whilst the social structures of Maori are protected by The Treaty, it is the individual’s right to decide whether or not to uptake this claim right. And certainly it is possible, and indeed evidenced, that Maori descendants are able to create meaningful autonomous ways of life outside of Maoridom.

BUT!! It remains that the right to self-determination and autonomy, that so cherished by the Right (and me too, even though I’m a hearty Lefty :P) happens to be contractually expressed in the Treaty – claims to “Rangatiratanga” and rights over taonga.

While social injustices are committed against many New Zealanders, of all ethnic compositions, there is a relevant justice claim made by individual Maori that is not able to be made by persons of other ethnic backgrounds. And that is the claim that oppressions of Maori cultural expression and rights over taonga and self-determination have been committed against them.

Note that this doesn’t exclude the justice claim that the poor and disadvantaged have to a better deal.
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May 29, 2009 11:17pm
Kingi

I couldn’t have articulated that any better myself.

Ka pai e hoa itsallapriori!
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May 29, 2009 11:19pm
sonic

Kingi, I have to say I respect your ability to rise above these racist twits and keep your cool.
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May 29, 2009 11:26pm
Kingi

No point stooping and throwing mud Sonic. As long as we stick to our principles and continue to debate with sound reason and based on fact, the right will only ever be able to respond with personal attacks and racism.

They did it to Helen for years, and in spite of them she has gone on to achieve some truly fantastic things. Kia kaha e hoa. Kia kaha.

Kingi
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May 29, 2009 11:32pm
sonic

I’ll take that on board Kingi, I always try and respond with humor but it is hard sometimes!

All the best

S
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May 29, 2009 11:41pm
reid

“As long as we stick to our principles and continue to debate with sound reason and based on fact”

Uh, Kingi. Show me one place where you’ve responded to any argument with anything substantive.

On this whole thread and again on today’s general, you’ve not directly addressed a single point made by anyone.

Why is that, and if you continue this behaviour, then why do you expect anyone to take you or anything you say, seriously?
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May 29, 2009 11:52pm
sonic

You mean substantive posts like

“Rangi was walkin down the road the other day when he spotted his cuz Kingi comin the other way wearin only one jandle”

I note you did not attack that poster for not addressing the point Reid, why was that?
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May 29, 2009 11:53pm
itsallapriori

And why Reid, does no one respond to any of my posts? 🙁
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May 30, 2009 12:01am
grumpyoldhori

Kingi I wonder, are you doing what so many others seem to do in putting people in boxes, one box under the heading Maori ?
Because when it comes to political outlook I know Maori who range from further left than the Alliance party to raving Ayn Rand followers who believe that they should be the first on any lifeboat.

You seem to be painting with a very broad brush without getting down to what YOU believe Maori need.
So what do you believe all we Maori need ?
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May 30, 2009 12:01am
Kingi

Just because you don’t consider the Treaty of Waitangi to be a substantive argument, doesn’t mean that I have not used facts to support my argument. Not once did I stoop to the level that some other people did.
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May 30, 2009 12:01am
Patrick Starr

Its people like Sonic who keep telling people like Kingi that they are victims purely for their own agenda- Its like a quack doctor meeting the hypochondriac

You’re both a bloody disgrace to the maori people
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May 30, 2009 12:13am
Kingi

Because I don’t agree with you Patrick Starr I am a disgrace? How so? Simply because your views are contrary to mine, I am suddenly a disgrace? How about instead of resulting to personal insults, you simply acknowledge there is a difference of opinion? Why do you resort to low grade personal insults. It only reflects badly on you Patrick Starr. Only badly on you.
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May 30, 2009 12:17am
reid

“Just because you don’t consider the Treaty of Waitangi to be a substantive argument, doesn’t mean that I have not used facts to support my argument. Not once did I stoop to the level that some other people did.”

Yeh but Kingi, wot’s the point of being on a blog if all you do is repeat what you’ve already said without clarifying or disputing in response to the points others are making? You might as well have a conversation in the mirror.

Here’s a hint for next time. This is not question time with Margaret Wilson as the Speaker. In this forum, it’s polite and indeed expected, that you do address questions raised by others against the arguments you yourself have put forth. Otherwise don’t bother putting them. By “address the question” we don’t mean: repeat what you’ve already said in a slightly different way, at the same time ignoring completely the point made by the other person to whom you’re purportedly responding.

I do applaud the response you made a few moments ago on the other thread to one of my points, and I do hope you’ll adjust your response rate upward in future not just for my points but for all others as well.

And sonic, that poster wasn’t pretending to be defending a proposition, merely making a joke. And why not? But if you choose to do the former, then expect to be called.
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May 30, 2009 12:28am
Patrick Starr

Kingi – Your views not only reflect badly on maori, your views are the very reason maori do not achieve.
Yesterday @ 9.23 you said “I am the first to say we need to stop whinging about past injustice” yet you have done nothing BUT continue to do so!

I’ll tell you why Asians do so well in NZ. Because most of them come from a harsh environment with no special privileges, but more importantly NO welfare. They have an inherent hard work ethic, they don’t expect anything. You on the other hand continue to play the victim card with your hand out.
You further say @10.04 “Some of you seem to not know your history very well, there were severe and historic injustices committed”
FFS look what the chinese have gone through if you want to see injustices. Look what the japs did to chinese who are still alive today, not distant ancestors 130 years ago. ‘Victims’??? – you’re not even close. You’d do very well to look at their ethics and learn something

(and the reason maori do so well overseas is they are removed from your ‘victim’ indoctrination – and welfare)
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May 30, 2009 12:35am
Kingi

Asian people have no relevance to this discussion. NO RELEVANCE.

Different culture, different history and in no way supporting your views. Are you Asian Patrick? This is not about victim indoctrination, its about honouring the Treaty. We have a treaty, asians don’t. Get over it. Talk about whinging, your hypocrisy is unbelievable.
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May 30, 2009 1:09am
Kingi

Reid, whatever. I respond to points that are just repeated and that don’t take into account what I have already said. Your patronising posts serve no purpose but to show your own ignorance in ignoring what I have said over and over. How about taking a leaf out of your own book before preaching to others.
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May 30, 2009 1:11am
Patrick Starr

If this discussion is about problems with maori then Asian people as a comparison have EVERY RELEVANCE to it, however I notice you immediately identify your first two problems in your next para “Different culture” and “We have a treaty”

I’ll bet “Treaty” is said before “mum” and “uncle” as first words for those maori children that actually learn english these days. Your desire to maintain the status quo is extremely obvious, It keeps you sitting on your backsides whilst the free money keeps rolling in, and as I said to you very early in the piece, history will show the more maori been given over the past 15 years – the worse maori have become.

It is people like you who should get over it with your whining and hypocrisy, It is people like me that just keep having to pay for it
You are not just unbelievable.- you are sadly indoctrinated into that $$ gimme$$ victim attitude

(And no, whilst I’ve spent a bit of time there Im am certainly not asian)
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May 30, 2009 3:40am
bwakile

“Asian people have no relevance to this discussion. NO RELEVANCE.”

As I pointed out above Kingi, in another 150 years time, Asian people are going to be highly relevent to your position. Through hard work and taking the opportunities that you seem to be unable to grasp, they will control a reasonable proportion of our economy i.e. businesses, property, education, money. Unfortunately for the future generations of Maori, these New Zealand Asians won’t feel any great moral obligation to hold Maori in any special light or accord you any race based privilege, regardless of your precious treaty.

I add that white people face the same threat.
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May 30, 2009 8:58am
bwakile

A saying I heard in Vietnam last year,

No familiy is ever poor for three generations

I wonder why?
If you spend your whole life with a grudge on your sholder and a victim mentality, of course you will not see the opportunities that are in front of all our noses, regardless of culture or race.

Kingi, you say that Maori are denied opportunity.
That single statement alone is enough to consign you to the scrapheap of history.
The world moves on, every day, and every day you fall another step behind.
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May 30, 2009 9:20am
Brian Smaller

How about instead of resulting to personal insults, you simply acknowledge there is a difference of opinion? Why do you resort to low grade personal insults.

No offence Kingi but you have labelled every person who disagrees with you as racist right wingers. Try practising what you preach.
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May 30, 2009 10:30am
Kingi

Not once have I said someone is a racist. Not once. I may have labelled their comments racist, but never them personally. Similarly, I don’t believe calling someone right wing is an insult.
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May 30, 2009 10:33am
sonic

“Its people like Sonic who keep telling people like Kingi that they are victims”

Got a link to me doing that Patrick, or are you just making it up as you go along?
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May 30, 2009 12:08pm
Patrick Starr

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/05/a_maori_city_councillor_writes.html#comment-567545
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May 30, 2009 12:15pm
sonic

“I respect your ability to rise above these racist twits”

Care to tell us how calling some people on his thread racist twits=telling maori they are victims?
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May 30, 2009 12:46pm
sonic

Oh and if I may I would suggest that this link sums up many of the attitudes expressed on this thread

http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/oh_no_its_making_well_reasoned?utm_source=b-section
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May 30, 2009 12:50pm
Patrick Starr

Sonic – I believe you have nearly answered your own quetion “Care to tell us how calling some people on his thread racist twits=telling maori they are victims”

with the small exception that you have now included the word ‘some’
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May 30, 2009 1:02pm
James

Maori people are in a battle with objective reality and its law of cause and effect. Other people respect this law more than Maori tend to do so get better results….
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May 30, 2009 1:05pm
bwakile

“I may have labelled their comments racist, but never them personally.’

Kingi . Are you sure you’re not Irish?

There is a certain Irish logic about this. (and I am of Irish extraction so can take the piss out of them)
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May 30, 2009 1:07pm
virtualmark

itsallapriori … I hadn’t realised your comments hadn’t been responded to. Looking back at what you said, I see you responded to one of my earlier posts …

Re Virtualmark’s question of Kingi: “just which part of the Treaty entitles Maori to special undemocratic representation in either local or central Government?”
– Answer: Kawanatanga/Rangatiratanga

As I understand it Kawanatanga was Henry Williams’ word for the sovereignty, or governorship, that Queen Victoria received through the treaty. Rangatiratanga was Henry Williams’ word for the authority the chiefs would retain over their people, lands, fisheries etc.

I think the chiefs in 1840 were pretty clear that Hobson had arrived to be the Governor, the kawana, and to exercise civil control over the settlors. They had petitioned the Queen for just such a Governor.

It strikes me that the question of the Supercity council, which is at the origin of this whole thread of comments, is the modern day equivalent of Hobson’s governorship. It’s all about civil control and governance of the population. The Treaty doesn’t give Maori a say in kawanatanga. That’s Hobson’s job. In fact, the Maori explicitly didn’t want that job. They wanted the Queen to come in and establish control over the white settlors and the emerging towns and districts. (Remember, pre-1840 NZ was basically lawless, with the Governor in NSW nominally in control but far too remote to exert any meaningful restraints on the settlors).

As I read the Treaty (which, to be fair, has had more interpretations than this thread has commenters) … Article 1 says the Crown, via Hobson as Governor, will set and enforce the rules and govern the towns, districts, farms etc. Meanwhile Article 2 says the Chiefs will continue to have authority over their lands and treasures, but not presumably over the towns and districts which they were quite happy to be shot of responsibility for.

I really don’t see how those underlying principles leave Maori with any wriggle room over wanting dedicated Maori seats in the Supercity. In the Treaty they were quite happy to sign over that responsibility to the white guy.
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May 30, 2009 1:13pm
itsallapriori

Virtualmark, thanks for your valuable reply 🙂

Yes, you are right insofar as you have outlined the responsibilities of te kawana, and were accurate in your pre-treaty history.

The question of the interrelatedness of kawanatanga and rangatiratanga is then posed. It seems as though rangatiratanga is nothing but lip-service without the kawanatanga recognizing and legitimizing their claims and concerns about any sort of governorship that can limit or change the context of their rangatiratanga.
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May 31, 2009 5:59pm

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