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April 25, 2009 7:45am by David Farrar

General Debate ANZAC Day 2009

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billyborker

Lest we forget that this day is im memory of the invasion of a foreign country. A foreign country that had done New Zealand no harm, and had not threatened harm to New Zealand. In fact, most New Zealanders probably knew nothing of this country.

Lest we forget this country defeated NZ and its allies and expelled the invaders from its shores.

Lest we forget this country, 84 years later, allows the descendants of the invaders to return to its shores each year and to celebrate that invasion.

Lest we forget that like New Zealand, Turkey is one of the world’s most secular nations, even though 99.8% of Turks are muslims, the religious group so often reviled by kiwiblog posters.

[DPF: And Turkey is a proud member of NATO. In fact they have a greater formal allegiance to western security interests than NZ.]
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April 25, 2009 8:06am
petal

Hang on a moment while I crap on a Turkish Flag and set it on fire.

(Voting guide: Thumbs down if you think I am serious, thumbs up if you understand sarcasm)
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April 25, 2009 8:18am
AG

Oops … this is a bit embarrassing! But hey … why should science get in the way of continuing to make money?

“For more than a decade the Global Climate Coalition, a group representing industries with profits tied to fossil fuels, led an aggressive lobbying and public relations campaign against the idea that emissions of heat-trapping gases could lead to global warming.

“The role of greenhouse gases in climate change is not well understood,” the coalition said in a scientific “backgrounder” provided to lawmakers and journalists through the early 1990s, adding that “scientists differ” on the issue.

But a document filed in a federal lawsuit demonstrates that even as the coalition worked to sway opinion, its own scientific and technical experts were advising that the science backing the role of greenhouse gases in global warming could not be refuted.

“The scientific basis for the Greenhouse Effect and the potential impact of human emissions of greenhouse gases such as CO2 on climate is well established and cannot be denied,” the experts wrote in an internal report compiled for the coalition in 1995.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/science/earth/24deny.html?_r=1&ref=us
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April 25, 2009 8:34am
Adolf Fiinkensein

AG, the experts of 1995 are becoming the fuckwits of 2010 – as the evidence mounts against their foolish pronouncements.
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April 25, 2009 8:40am
dad4justice

I wonder how many internet blow hards on this blog would respect the order – charge the enemy? Yeah right, keyboard gunners are full of shit. Lest we forget the honourable soldiers.
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April 25, 2009 8:44am
reid

They shall not grow old as we who are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
WE WILL REMEMBER THEM.
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April 25, 2009 8:46am
billyborker

Yes, least we forget the honourable soldiers of dishonourable wars. Lest we forget that when they had a choice they chose their path. Lest we forget the Nuremburg defence. Lest we forget the slaughters of innocents so the rich could stay rich and the poor be kept in their place.

Lest we forget the invasions of foreign lands, our complicity in Turkey, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Indonesia.

Lest we forget that war is never the answer, only the problem.

[DPF: But necessary when other countries invade]
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April 25, 2009 8:55am
Christopher

They shall not grow old as we who are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
WE WILL REMEMBER THEM.

Lest we forget.
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April 25, 2009 8:56am
billyborker

dad4justice (5228) 1 1 Says:

April 25th, 2009 at 8:44 am
I wonder how many internet blow hards on this blog would respect the order – charge the enemy?

Who is the enemy, Peter? Why were the Turks or Vietnamese our enemies?

It takes a lot more courage to stand for what is right in defiance of the order than it does to blindly follow the blind into battle.
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April 25, 2009 8:57am
dad4justice

Come on billy or should I say fugley, bloody hell, have some respect for kiwi blood spilt on the battlefield. I doubt you can understand the word respect, so just shut up and stop talking crap about “dishonourable wars”. Your type make me sick ,because you are gutless cowards who think they are funny!
Must be due for some more malicious phone calls fugley!
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April 25, 2009 8:59am
andrei

Lest we forget that war is never the answer, only the problem

What is the answer, genius?

How are you going to deal with those oppressors of mankind who have created untold misery throughout the ages?

As one of your heroes once famously said

Political power comes from the barrel of a gun

So how do you deal with that mindset, I know by posting offensive crap on a day when we honor those who stood up to histories tyrants.

Intellectual brilliance at work folks!
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April 25, 2009 9:06am
reid

Yes, least we forget the honourable soldiers of dishonourable wars. Lest we forget that when they had a choice they chose their path.

billy, this day is a symbol of all war dead and as someone said last night, if you want to discuss the futility of war then perhaps you should confine that to discussing the motives and the folly of the political decision-makers because the military on all sides are subject to direction from the politicians – the military merely execute the policy, sometimes well and sometimes not so well. Political decisions are not the fault of those who execute the policy and those people are who we remember today.

Perhaps also, on this particular day, you should carefully and explicitly draw a distinction between comments directed to the futility of war and comments directed to recognising the magnitude of the sacrifice made by people like you and I, at the behest of our political masters; for those two aspects are in fact completely separate topics.
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April 25, 2009 9:11am
billyborker

Interesting post, andrei. You claim I have a hero I didn’t know I had.

Didn’t your hero once say “But I tell you not to oppose an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn your other cheek to him as well.”?

As to your question, I don’t claim to have “the answer”, but war is not something I would enter in to lightly.

It is not the grand adventure that the boys who went to Europe in 1915 thought it would be.

It was not freedom’s last stand as WW2 was being sold as.

It was never about bringing democracy to Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, and all those other dirty little wars of the past 60 years.

I guess that this is why, right from when I was a small child, I always preferred November 11 to April 25. No bands, no marches, no medals, no speeches, just a few moments to reflect on the horror of war and the harden my resolve to work towards better ways of solving problems.
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April 25, 2009 9:16am
billyborker

dad4justice (5229) 0 1 Says:

April 25th, 2009 at 8:59 am
Must be due for some more malicious phone calls fugley!

The police have your details, Telecom are monitoring all my incoming calls. All I need is one more from you and I WILL have you prosecuted.
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April 25, 2009 9:18am
reid

I guess that this is why, right from when I was a small child, I always preferred November 11 to April 25. No bands, no marches, no medals, no speeches, just a few moments to reflect on the horror of war and the harden my resolve to work towards better ways of solving problems.

So billy, in 2012, when the Chinese have successfully invaded S.E. Asia, Japan and Australia and committed against the Asians and our Australian cousins the sorts of war crimes we saw from the Japanese first in Manchuria and then throughout S.E. Asia, what will your attitude be then?

Just wait around for your daughter, wife and mother to be used as a plaything? Just wait around for you and your brother and father to be used for bayonet practice?

This was the reality we were facing if we’d all adopted your attitude in 1941. Would that have been the right thing to do? If not, then just precisely what do you think you can do from now till then, to prevent this scenario, realistically.
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April 25, 2009 9:22am
billyborker

reid (2491) Vote: 0 0 Says:

April 25th, 2009 at 9:11 am

Perhaps also, on this particular day, you should carefully and explicitly draw a distinction between comments directed to the futility of war and comments directed to recognising the magnitude of the sacrifice made by people like you and I, at the behest of our political masters; for those two aspects are in fact completely separate topics.

I have been careful to do that, and I have not maligned individuals, just their collective actions.

I have freewill, I have a conscience, and I do not follow the orders of my political masters if theose orders do not accord with my conscience.

In WW1 I would not have fought, it was a futile war fought for the control of the remanants of the Ottoman Empire. Its legacy still continues, as in its ashes we find the causes of WW2 and much of the ongoing strife in the Middle East.

In WW2 I doubt I would have been a combatant, certainly not in Europe as that was not my country or my war. I may well have enlisted had home been threatened, but more likely in a non combatant role.

I was a conscientious objector to the Vietnam war, and prepared to be jailed rather than conscripted. As I said eralier, it takes more courage to stand against the prevailing wind that it does to blindly follow orders.

And not one of the other wars, police actions, call them what you will, have been worth the loss of life caused. Not one.
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April 25, 2009 9:25am
big bruv

Ha ha ha.

Big tough Billy cannot handle the odd nutter who makes crank calls yet he feels that it is his right to insult all those who fought for him and fought for freedom.

So typical of the cowardly left, they are happy to hide behind a keyboard yet when they are faced with a dose of their own medicine they rush off to the authorities.
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April 25, 2009 9:26am
dad4justice

“The police have your details, Telecom are monitoring all my incoming calls. All I need is one more from you and I WILL have you prosecuted.”

fugley I have never rung you. Fact. I was talking about you ringing me. It’s all recorded for a rainy day. You lefty twits are always twisting the truth.
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April 25, 2009 9:29am
billyborker

So billy, in 2012, when the Chinese have successfully invaded S.E. Asia,

Strawman, reid.
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April 25, 2009 9:30am
AG

BillyB:

Lest we forget that war is never the answer, only the problem.
[DPF: But necessary when other countries invade]

Quite right. And good on Ngai Tuhoe for their resistance.

http://www.teara.govt.nz/NewZealanders/MaoriNewZealanders/NgaiTuhoe/4/en
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April 25, 2009 9:31am
Christopher

So billy, when the Chinese have successfully invaded S.E. Asia, Japan and Australia and committed against the Asians and our Australian cousins the sorts of war crimes we saw from the Japanese first in Manchuria and then throughout S.E. Asia, what will your attitude be then?

Just wait around for your daughter, wife and mother to be used as a plaything? Just wait around for you and your brother and father to be used for bayonet practice?

This was the reality we were facing if we’d all adopted your attitude in 1941. Would that have been the right thing to do?

This is exactly the point.

Understand this, billy. You are here today, alive and well, because of the sacrifice of ordinary men. They went through horrors you can only imagine so that you could stand here and dishonour their memories.

That, my socialist countryman, is fucking disgusting.
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April 25, 2009 9:31am
billyborker

insult all those who fought for him and fought for freedom.

bigbruv, as much as possible, I ammaking my comments about WW1, sometimes venturing into other areas. WW! was NEVER about freedom. Actually, come to think of it, neither was just about any war, anywhere, anytime.

Stop regurgitating the propaganda.
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April 25, 2009 9:33am
billyborker

A question for all those who claim I am in some way “dishonouring” the dead (a concept about as stupid as defaming religion). Why are you here arguing with me? Why aren’t you at commemoration services? Why aren’t you visiting the old and dying remnants of these wars in their homes and nursing homes? Why aren’t you walking the walk?
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April 25, 2009 9:37am
billyborker

[DPF: But necessary when other countries invade]

Which is exactly where I came in with this discussion.

ANZAC Day came about as a result of New Zealand and others INVADING Turkey. Turkey did not attack NZ first, Turkey, to the best of my knowledge, has never even attempted to invade NZ.

[DPF: That is how it came about but it now is about remembering all those who died in wars – both the good and the bad ones]
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April 25, 2009 9:41am
dad4justice

I have already paid my respect to my grand dad who fought in WW1. You are a real nasty nutbar eh fugley.
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April 25, 2009 9:42am
AG

Christopher,

“Understand this, billy. You are here today, alive and well, because of the sacrifice of ordinary men. They went through horrors you can only imagine so that you could stand here and dishonour their memories.”

Surely one of the freedoms they died for was the freedom to dissent, to question, to challenge orthodoxy, to disagree? Wasn’t it the Nazi’s (and the Soviets) who demanded absolute veneration of “heroes” and the unquestioning acceptance that the actions of the father/motherland are always right? So, in order to “honour the memories” of those ordinary men, we should act like those against whom they died in combat? Gosh … my head hurts!
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April 25, 2009 9:44am
AG

“ANZAC Day came about as a result of New Zealand and others INVADING Turkey. Turkey did not attack NZ first, Turkey, to the best of my knowledge, has never even attempted to invade NZ.”

In fact, since the British invaded in the 19th Century, no-one has tried to invade NZ (with the possible exception of the Japanese in WWII). Hasn’t stopped NZ acting in a hyper-aggressive military fashion, though! In fact, up until the anti-Vietnam generation took over, its hard to find a war NZ hasn’t tried to muscle in on ….
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April 25, 2009 9:46am
Christopher

Surely one of the freedoms they died for was the freedom to dissent, to question, to challenge orthodoxy, to disagree? Wasn’t it the Nazi’s (and the Soviets) who demanded absolute veneration of “heroes” and the unquestioning acceptance that the actions of the father/motherland are always right? So, in order to “honour the memories” of those ordinary men, we should act like those against whom they died in combat? Gosh … my head hurts!

A freedom that you enjoy every day of the year. So why, today, can you not join with every other Kiwi and Aussie in honouring those who fought to keep us free?
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April 25, 2009 9:47am
AG

“So why, today, can you not join with every other Kiwi and Aussie in honouring those who fought to keep us free?”

Well, isn’t it especially important today that we recognise and protect those freedoms? Or are you saying that they have LESS importance and relevance on the day we officially remember those who died in their name? That these freedoms only really should apply on those 364 days when we don’t really care about the war dead? That’s an odd attitude to take.
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April 25, 2009 9:50am
billyborker

Because those who fought in WW1 did not fight to keep us free, our freedoms were never under threat.

And those who fought in Vietnam did not fighht to keep us free, our freedoms were never under threat from the Vietnamese.

And if the majority of posters here had their way, NZ would have had active combat forces in Iraq with the Bush/Blair/Howard axis of the killing, and they would not have been fighting to keep us free.

So Christopher, go honour those who died in vain if you wish, but don’t expect me to use my freedom to join you.
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April 25, 2009 9:52am
big bruv

I do find it ironic that the same low life pinko’s who delight in attacking those who fought for them do so in the name of freedom.

Of course these are the same low life pinko scum who would if given the chance make union membership compulsory.
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April 25, 2009 9:55am
reid

I have been careful to do that, and I have not maligned individuals, just their collective actions.

Yes but those collective actions are not of their making.

In WW1 I would not have fought…

Well billy I imagine with 20/20 hindsight many people now living today would agree. Unfortunately, that wasn’t available to the participants at the time and if you’re making a value judgement you really have to take account not only of the knowledge that was available to them back then but also immerse yourself in the mores of the time.

In WW2 I doubt I would have been a combatant…

Well someone had to be and while I personally harbour no animosity toward those who withdrew for conscientious reasons, I have much deeper admiration for those who sacrificed their lives for my sake and I would not hesitate to emulate their sacrifice for the sake of others were I ever asked.

I was a conscientious objector to the Vietnam war, and… not one of the other wars, police actions, call them what you will, have been worth the loss of life caused. Not one.

Again, this day is to remember honourable sacrifice for patriotism. The futility of a particular conflict is a separate subject. It’s a day to remember those who were willing to live the maxim “it’s my country, right or wrong.” Throughout the Bible, there is a continual thread of warfare between the forces of good and evil. Revelations is the culmination of this thread where at the battle of Armageddon, St Michael [Jesus] leads the Angels of Heaven and defeats the forces of evil, for a time. Note that Jesus is not a conscientious objector.
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April 25, 2009 9:56am
dad4justice

“Because those who fought in WW1 did not fight to keep us free, our freedoms were never under threat.”

What utter rubbish fugley. You are one bent kiwi.
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April 25, 2009 9:57am
davidp

BB>Turkey did not attack NZ first, Turkey, to the best of my knowledge, has never even attempted to invade NZ.

Turkey didn’t actually exist then. However, the Ottoman Empire entered an alliance with the other Central Powers who had invaded Belgium and France. Then the Ottoman Empire invaded Russia.

Doing nothing while other countries are invaded and waiting for your turn is not as good a defense strategy as entering an alliance with other friendly countries and fighting together.
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April 25, 2009 9:58am
big bruv

“And if the majority of posters here had their way, NZ would have had active combat forces in Iraq”

I cannot and will not speak for others, but as far as I am concerned we SHOULD be in Iraq and we should have been there from day one.

The fact that your political leadership decided not to go and do our bit is an embarrassment that we as a nation will have to live with.
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April 25, 2009 9:58am
dad4justice

Must go and build a 50 cal billy borker machine gun. Target the fugley range.
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April 25, 2009 10:01am
lofty

Who cares about the space waster billyborker??
I have just come home from our memorial service here in Tauranga…full to the gunnel’s, young people everywhere, families respectfully observing, bloody great.
billy is happily a minority here in NZ…must be very lonely.
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April 25, 2009 10:10am
goodgod

The police have your details, Telecom are monitoring all my incoming calls. All I need is one more from you and I WILL have you prosecuted.

You hypocrite and coward. If you had the courage of your offensive convinctions you’d pick up the phone and listen. But you don’t. So go fuck yourself.
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April 25, 2009 10:10am
billyborker

It’s a day to remember those who were willing to live the maxim “it’s my country, right or wrong.”

No, its not, but if you want it to be so, then they deserve all the disrespect I can manage. Each of us has free will and a conscience, and it is up to each of us how to use that. My country right or wrong is right up there with god said it, I believe it, that settles it stupidity.

Although, since you then go on to quote the bible at me, maybe you subscribe to both those notions.

Jesus was a lying sociopath. He’d fit quite wlll with Hitler and Bush.
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April 25, 2009 10:11am
barry

billyborker – there were people like you around in the 1930’s and their stupid influence lead to a reduction in armed forces spending and to such things as the appeasment movement.
We now know that the appeasers allowed hitler and the japs to grow stronger in both their actual forces and their belief that the english especially would just roll over and give in.
The reduction in armed forces meant that their were very few people around when the bombs did start falling who were capable of leadership and organisational ability. Forget the ability to kill anyone, one of the main advantages of and armed force is their training to be able to handle emergencies when things go wrong.
(and if you want an example have a look at todays police force. They are not trained to be able to fill leadership rolls when the shit its the fan; these days they are trained to be politically correct and to not take risks. Just this week we have seen the coroners report about the drowning at wanganui – where the police desplayed an alarming lack of leadership and absolutly no initiatve whatsoever. Just imagine what will happen when we get another 1931 earthquake. The police will be looking to arrest someone for causing the disaster and we will depend on the armed forces to clean up the mess – and if its where you live you’d best hope that dont know that you are the guy behiond the name billyborker)
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April 25, 2009 10:13am
goodgod

Fuck off billy, you’re a cowardly disgrace.
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April 25, 2009 10:13am
dad4justice

“Jesus was a lying sociopath. ”

fugley exposed yet again. What hatred you have. I guess you are the prime example of the existence of evil.
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April 25, 2009 10:13am
billyborker

goodgod (1243) Vote: 0 1 Says:

April 25th, 2009 at 10:10 am
The police have your details, Telecom are monitoring all my incoming calls. All I need is one more from you and I WILL have you prosecuted.

You hypocrite and coward. If you had the courage of your offensive convinctions you’d pick up the phone and listen. But you don’t. So go fuck yourself.

The misuse of the telephone for purposes of harrassment and threat is a criminal offence. As a citizen who believes in the rule of law I have an obligation to uphold that law and to bring to the attention of the appropriate authorities those that flout the law.

That is neither hypocrisy or cowardice; it is citizenship, a concept lost on the right.
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April 25, 2009 10:14am
billyborker

dad4justice (5234) Vote: 0 1 Says:

April 25th, 2009 at 10:13 am
“Jesus was a lying sociopath. ”

fugley exposed yet again. What hatred you have.

Its not hatred dad, its the truth. But you can’t handle the truth. The bible is chocka with examples of Jesus’s lies, would you like me to quote some?
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April 25, 2009 10:17am
dad4justice

Time I put your photograph up on my blog fugley.
Good bye creep !
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April 25, 2009 10:18am
billyborker

dad4justice (5235) 0 1 Says:

April 25th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Time I put your photograph up on my blog fugley.

Go ahead, make my day, especially as I am not fugley, quite good looking in fact, and whoever’s photo you do use will no doubt have your blog shut down for ToS violation.
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April 25, 2009 10:22am
reid

billy, I merely pointed out with my biblical reference that conflict is not confined to the human realm. It’s an eternal reality.

If you choose to withdraw from that reality, then that is your right, but you don’t have a right to condemn others for not taking the same course. That’s just self-righteous.
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April 25, 2009 10:26am
billyborker

reid, there are many works of fiction with conflict as a theme. And it is not I who chose to withdraw from reality, it is those who think a work of fiction is reality who do so.
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April 25, 2009 10:32am
Redbaiter

Borker is a narcisssist who posts here not because he genuinely cares about any particular POV, but only as an insane device to receive attention. I wish you guys wouldn’t pander to his obsession.
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April 25, 2009 10:38am
Redbaiter

Hooray.

Great news.

Jim Salinger sacked from NIWA.

Every person supporting truth on the GW issue should rejoice at this news.

This scaremongering United Nations IPCC propagandist should have been fired years ago for his alarmist crap, not in the least his false predictions regarding sea level rises. The damage he has done to NZ’s national psyche on this issue is enormous.

A great step forward for truth and light and freedom in New Zealand.

(see the Watermelons are squealing- this is a sure sign of what a great event it is)
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April 25, 2009 10:43am
mavxp

The ill advised invasion of “Turkey” by the British Empire during WW1 was aimed at removing the Ottoman Empire from the war. They had sided with Imperial Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Our allies (New Zealander’s were British citizens in those days), were the French Republic, Italy and the Russian Empire. Russia was little more advanced than a medieval kingdom, and needed support on the Eastern Front. The only way to supply them was through the Black Sea – past Istanbul as the north was largely impassible to ships especially during the winter. The point of invading Turkey was not to conquer and occupy, but was strategically to knock Istanbul and therefore the Ottoman Empire out of the war, enabling supplies to reach Russia so they could bring pressure to bear on Germany from the east – relieving the stalemate on the Western Front.
If it had worked it may have well ended the stupid war a lot sooner. Alas it failed.

By the end of the war however the Ottoman Empire fell, allowing independent states from Eastern Europe (i.e. Greece) and across the middle east to be established from Egypt to Iran, and a secular Turkish state established under Attaturk – who was the General in charge of the Turkish forces at Gallipoli, now one of the few democratic Islamic nations and NATO ally.

While war is terrible – and WW1 is one of the more pointless and stupid wars, the world changed dramatically as a result and moved forward into the modern era. From the ashes of this war, many countries and the common people now have freedoms that we cherish.
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April 25, 2009 10:45am
Redbaiter

RISING SEA LEVELS THREATEN ISLANDS

This is the lie that NZ’s gutless and dishonourable mainstream media, those craven lapdogs of pro-warming propagandists, have been promoting for years.

Here’s some truth. From the American Thinker. (A good example of why blogs are thriving and newspapers produced by government arse licking “journalists” are dying.)

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/04/sinking_islands_or_stinking_is.html

Comments are interesting too.
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April 25, 2009 10:57am
Redbaiter

More great news-

“….an Auckland District Court judge yesterday ruled in favour of the Ministry for Culture and Heritage. TV3’s parent company, MediaWorks, faces a fine of up to $300,000 for broadcasting advertisements during its Sunday morning coverage of the 2007 Rugby World Cup.”

Those state worshipping liars and soviet style propagandists at TV3 get bitten on the arse by the institutions they worship.
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April 25, 2009 11:04am
Redbaiter

Why doesn’t National fix this???

Fines, the socialist’s answer to every perceived violation of law, do not work.

—————————–

$790 million owed in fines.

$448 million of that is overdue (57 per cent).

$80 million owed to victims in court-imposed reparations.

1,051,000 fines passed to the court for collection in the 2007/2008 year.

$82 million fines written off or remitted.

$233 million collected in fines in the 2007/2008 year.

$66 million budgeted to collect fines.

———————–

What a sick third world farce.
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April 25, 2009 11:12am
thedavincimode

Oh good grief. Seems that borker and MNIJerk have the same father. Same chip, same shoulder. Same selfish loser personality. Same envious self-justifying anger. Same need to reconcile their own failures in life with the successes of others through some perceived injustice. The same embittered jealous and warped personality. The same refusal to acknowledge that Gallipoli was about 100 years ago and in the context of today’s society, may as well have been 1000 years ago. Why else would you gratuitously denigrate the vets and their relatives, still living.

So off they went, from a fledgling country on the edge of the empire to serve the mother country. No internet, no realtime global information, no education about the ways of the world and no public debate – just courage and a sense of duty to queen and country. “Duty??!! Ha, more fool them – how stupid were they” cry borker and MNIJerk. “we’re SOOO clever – look how we really pissed off the baby eaters. Now we feel really goood about ourseves.”

What’s the matter borker – live hasn’t quite turned out the way you wanted it? It seems from MNIJerk’s offering yesterday that daddy didn’t get a medal. I gather he was rolling fags and sewing greatcoats on the beaches at Normandy while the troops were playing cards and getting on the piss with the jerries. Of course, that means no-one should have a medal. Its that good old: “if I can’t have it then no-one else should” philosophy that has taken us so far over the last nine years. Oh dear, are the burdens of the father manifested in the failure of the sons?

The similarities with Komrade Kullen’s personality are remarkable. That same miserable envious embitterment. However, they can’t be one and the same because you can at least say that Kullen used the motivation of the chip on his shoulder to completely fuck up the country and in that sense you can say he’s entitled to feel he got even. These two have only managed fuck themselves up.

Folks, why upset yourselves? These sad arses just don’t get it and they get off by upsetting people that do.
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April 25, 2009 11:16am
Angus

G’Day RB,

Here’s a couple of things which have been around for a while.. not sure if you or other conservatives have seen them or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=NZ&hl=en-GB&v=DioQooFIcgE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE98w1KZ-c
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April 25, 2009 11:18am
PhilBest

Victor Davis Hanson made this magnificent observation recently:

“……What is the key to the success of our military, other than the traditional civic militarism as outlined in the Constitution and honed over two centuries of fighting? I can think of five reasons why the 21st-century American military is so successful.

1) There is an officer corps whose members are, to be frank, relics of an American past. They are ossified in amber as it were, and really do believe in passé things like honor, duty, country, God, sacrifice, and the continuation of the American experiment. Meet a Marine colonel, an Army major, an Air Force one-star, or a Navy captain and it is often as if you are talking to a younger version of your grandfather, as if we packed thousands of our best in ice around 1945, and then thawed them out in the 21st century. These odd men and women of the old breed will do almost anything as outlined in the Constitution to ensure that their country — you and I — is safe and continues on in perpetuity……”

That is one country where there has been less “forgetting” than in NZ – thank God for that. May it remain so. To quote Mark Steyn, the only reason Sweden can be Sweden, and France can be France, and Belgium can be Belgium, and NZ can be NZ, (and so on) is because the USA is the USA.
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April 25, 2009 11:29am
billyborker

poor old davinci, no brain, no independent thought. No idea of how to rebut my arguments, just the sort of personal attack and vitriol one learns to expect from the loser right. If it can’t be bought or sold you can’t understand it.

I am pleased you know so much about my father. I’ll tell you a little bit more. Trade unionist. Factory worker. Ill-educated by today’s standards, left school at 12. Ran away to sea at 14. It was that first day at sea that he found out some people ate three times a day, he had never seen so much food before in all his life.

He spent the years 1940 – 1945 on merchant ships, first transporting oil from the gulf, later on liberty ships crossing the Atlantic. I would not like to live through what he lived through, but he and his comrades never marched on ANZAC Day, theirs was a very different war, no glory, and no medals. They are known as the forgotten service.

But that was his life, not mine.

Now, if you have a clue, try debating the points. If you don’t have a clue, join redbaiter, dad4justice and all the other bottom dwellers at the bottom of the rain tank.
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April 25, 2009 11:32am
PhilBest

For those who are moved by this sort of thing, here is a magnificent performance of Edward Elgar’s vocal and orchestral setting of the famous “For the Fallen” poem by Lawrence Binyon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef7J_WcH6wA

Isn’t it noticeable that secular socialism / atheism etc has never given the world anything in the way of sublime music or art?
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April 25, 2009 11:35am
Komata

Billyborker

I’m fascinated by the following statements

‘I was a conscientious objector to the Vietnam war, and prepared to be jailed rather than conscripted. As I said eralier, it takes more courage to stand against the prevailing wind that it does to blindly follow orders’

‘As a citizen who believes in the rule of law I have an obligation to uphold that law and to bring to the attention of the appropriate authorities those that flout the law’.

Unlike the situation in Australia (and I have to assume that you are a native-born Kiwi in this instance – correct me if I am wrong – and enlighten us if that isn’t the case), all the members of the New Zealande armed forces who went to Vietnam went as VOLUNTEERS!! There was absolutely NO conscription!

So therefore, your ‘concientious objection’ would seem to have ben based on rather specious, emotive and evidently poorly informed grounds, not based on the New Zealand reality. (and as I said, I have to assume you are a native-born Kiwi)

It would also appear that your stand on the law is somewhat flexible – and depends on your mood and inclination.

I base this on your statemetns concerning your anti-Vietnam-esperience, when, evidently as a ‘Vietnam-protester’ you were quite happy to openly oppose and attack the law, yet now publicly declare that you ‘have an obligation to uphold that [self-same] law’ – the very one/s that you were trying so hard to destroy (and that DIDN’T march you along to the nearest wall, aim a rifle at you and despatch you forthwith – as would have happened in North Vietnam at the time, though no doubt you knew that didn’t you?)

I note also that ‘it takes more courage to stand against the prevailing wind that it does to blindly follow orders’.

If that IS in fact the case, and it is a view to which you still adhere, you should therefore have absolutely NO quarrel with those of us who have, over the last NINE years shown our courage by trying to stand against the prevailing wind of rampant socialism, greed and societal destruction that the Labour party and its fellow-travellers attempted to inflict upon our country.

And, since obviously, (by implication and your evident passion fior all things socialist), you have been a supporter of such practices, (possibly as a member of the one-time main governing party), it would seem by simple default that you have actually been guilty of FOLLOWING ORDERS given to you – you know ‘Go forth and Socialise’ etc.

And yet, in view of the above statements, and your open and proud admission that you actively flouted and pushed-against the laws of the land, knowing full well that you were doing so, you have the absolute affrontery to lecture your fellow posters on Kiwiblog on the keeping of said law, especially ‘As a citizen who believes in the rule of law I have an obligation to uphold that law and to bring to the attention of the appropriate authorities those that flout the law’.

It seems to me that you are being selective and disingenious in your statements – you either SUPPORT the laws of the country in which you live or you DON’T.

Which is it Billyborker, sir?

Please make up your mind, and when you have, let us know – you CANNOT have it both or all ways.

I (and no doubt others) will be interested in your reply.

(And also, to pre-empt such things, I am merely asking for enlightenment concerning your postion, so no personal attacks thank you – it merely belittles you, lowers the tone of the conversation and may confirm the opinions that others hold concerning you. The facts M’an, just the facts . . ‘ That is ALL I’m interested in.)
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April 25, 2009 11:36am
Manolo

“Ill-educated by today’s standards,..”

Like father, like son. Never a more apt description.
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April 25, 2009 11:38am
billyborker

Isn’t it noticeable that secular socialism / atheism etc has never given the world anything in the way of sublime music or art?

No, its not noticeable at all, in fact, quite the opposite. There is an enormous body of art that comes from the profane. And yes, some if it, too, is sublime.
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April 25, 2009 11:38am
starboard

billyborker…the end result of when 2 cousins sleep together…
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April 25, 2009 11:39am
PhilBest

Hey, Redbaiter, re the fines thing, have you seen the DomPost front page this AM?

It seems the Justice Dept wants to give up collecting fines from people who “can’t pay”, and concentrate their efforts only on people who can and do………

Quite what the incentive to obey the law will be, for people who “can’t pay” fines, is not yet clear……..
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April 25, 2009 11:39am
Shunda barunda

“Fines, the socialist’s answer to every perceived violation of law, do not work.”

I was 1 day late paying the PAYE (which was only about $50) and I get the equivalent fine of a major speeding ticket.
I wish I could have the opportunity to get my fines wiped, oh but thats right I’ve only got the wife and kids to feed and the little A hole boy racer has some new 20 inch rims to buy.
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April 25, 2009 11:41am
big bruv

starboard

Billy is from Canterbury therefore he is not the result of cousins sleeping together, rather he is the result of brother and sister sleeping together.

Sadly it is rather common in that part of the world.
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April 25, 2009 11:42am
starboard

BB , I dont believe he be from Canty for he not like the rest of us down here…should I ever see him wandering the streets of our fair provence I shall attempt to tear him a new arsehole…
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April 25, 2009 11:48am
PhilBest

# billyborker (409) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
April 25th, 2009 at 11:38 am

Isn’t it noticeable that secular socialism / atheism etc has never given the world anything in the way of sublime music or art?

“No, its not noticeable at all, in fact, quite the opposite. There is an enormous body of art that comes from the profane. And yes, some if it, too, is sublime.”

Rubbish. What is more, the “profane” that you are referring to required a background of freedom and religion. Perhaps I should say that the trend to secular socialism and atheism on the part of a nations institutions and establishment is inimical to the production of sublime music and art.

I would also add that much of the music and art that you might claim to be from profane sources is nothing of the sort, being based on modern day revision of what certain people in history “might have been”. By way of example of this sort of revisionism based on modern-day corrupt-minded assumptions, it required the exhuming of Schubert’s remains to finally refute the persistent myth that he had died of V.D.
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April 25, 2009 11:48am
billyborker

You have built an enormous strawman there komata, so unless I have matches, where do I start?

What a vast number off ridiculous assertions you have made.

So, to the facts.

I am not NZ born. I was subject to conscripition in Aus, and I was opposed to that. Surely the libertarians, and those others who claim to exalt individual freedom here would support my stance in opposition to forced labour? I’ll bypass the rest of your stuff, at is irrelevant construct of your mind, notheing to do with the facts.

…you should therefore have absolutely NO quarrel with those of us who have, over the last NINE years shown our courage by trying to stand against the prevailing wind of rampant socialism, greed and societal destruction that the Labour party and its fellow-travellers attempted to inflict upon our country.

There is no courage in attending a polling booth in NZ. Maybe there was for the first women and maori to cast their votes, but in case you hadn’t noticed, dissent is not only permitted, but also popular in NZ. We, unlike the US, are yet to have a homeland security act to deprive us of our rights and liberties.

you either SUPPORT the laws of the country in which you live or you DON’T.

Far enough, I didn’t support conscription in Aus when I was living there. I do support the laws of NZ now I live here, so I guess I am OK on both accounts. I will, however, resist and oppose any law that I find acts against my conscience. And that, again, is the duty of citizenship.

So yes, as a citizen of a secular democracy, I can have it both ways.

And finally, I am not a member of any political party, I leave myself free to support good policy and opose bad policy, regardless of the politics of those who propose the policy. Again, that’s citizenship, not the partisanship you mob blindly follow.
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April 25, 2009 11:49am
billyborker

Phil, I think you have a typo – you needed to write required (…) freedom from religion.
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April 25, 2009 11:51am
thedavincimode

But that is the answer isn’t borker. Daddy had it hard and didn’t get a medal. Just like the firemen police and rescue workers in the blitz. The merchant marine in the South Pacific, including those that got lobbed into Changi, The nurses and doctors. Dare I say it, the Chaplains. So you denigrate those that get recognition, rather than calling for recognition for those that didn’t. Well borker, ask your self this. Why doesn’t everyone else who was, or has a relative who was a non-com carry on like you? Why aren’t they out putting shit on the people who bore arms. The answer lies within borker, and that must be a very scary place to go.

Now, what about some ripping yarns from the ’52 waterfront strike. Gosh, that was only 50 plus years ago, but there’s plenty of time to get even.
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April 25, 2009 11:54am
Redbaiter

“Hey, Redbaiter, re the fines thing, have you seen the DomPost front page this AM?”

Yeah, I have seen that article Phil, where I got the above stats from actually. However, I noticed the story appeared to be generated by a press release from Rick Barker, so there’s a good chance it wil be a beat up. I’ll keep my powder dry on the substance until there’s some back up info.

That said tho, if its true its disgraceful, and the Head of the Dept should be fired for such an appalling failure to recognise and important principle of the justice sysytem he is meant to be maintaining- under the law, all are equal.
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April 25, 2009 12:02pm
Redbaiter

Gidday Angus. Thanks for those links. Had seen the first on the Republic. Had not seen the second. Watched 15 minutes of it and thought it brilliant. Presently downloading to watch later today. Thanks again.
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April 25, 2009 12:05pm
Komata

Billyborker

Thank you for your reply – your observations are both interesting and revealing, although I DO notice that you haven’t addressed my point about ‘it takes more courage to stand against the prevailing wind that it does to blindly follow orders’; calling such things ‘an irrelevant construct of my mind’ would seem to negate what was a genuine attempt to engage you in a serious conversation at an academic level.

But thank you anyway – as I said, it was revealing.
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April 25, 2009 12:15pm
Murray

What a small hatefull pathetic bit of crap billy is.

Like so many of his kind he believes in nothing, respects nothing and only knows the path of tearing down. His ego is the most and only thing of value in his world.
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April 25, 2009 12:19pm
PhilBest

BillyBorker, you are clearly waaaaay out of your depth on the subject of the history of music and art . But as some wise man commented once, Marxism and its subsidiary streams are means of enabling intellectually lazy and dishonest people to be experts on anything without actually knowing any facts.
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April 25, 2009 12:20pm
PhilBest

And what a horrific comment on Jesus Christ, I suspect that even many of your antichristian atheist colleagues would repudiate it. Repent, BillyBorker.
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April 25, 2009 12:23pm
toad

big bruv said: Billy is from Canterbury therefore he is not the result of cousins sleeping together…

Dare I mention sheep?
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April 25, 2009 12:31pm
PhilBest

Wow, Peter Cresswell sure SAYS IT today:

http://pc.blogspot.com/2009/04/anzac-day-reflection-war-what-is-it.html

“……(Wars) are the second-worst thing on earth only because the very worst is tyranny: an act of war by governments against those they are supposed to protect. It is with the existence of tyrannical governments and of movements intent on inflicting tyranny and oppression against others that wars of conquest and campaigns of terror begin. It is those who seek their values through violence that makes war possible; it is the existence of such entities that make wars of self-defence and liberation necessary.
It is not enough simply to declare oneself against war and wish war’s destruction would go away. Pacifism itself only rewards aggression. Pacifism kills. It is necessary to oppose aggression and to resist tyranny.
When aggressors seek Lebensraum, then appeasement only rewards the aggression – and only fuels further aggression. Peace with tyrants is never genuine peace. When slave pens are allowed to flourish, then peace means peace without justice.
Peace without justice rewards the tyrannical, rearms the aggressor, and is an injustice to those whom the tyrants enslave and kill. Every semi-free country has the right to defend itself against aggressors; every semi-free country has the right (but not the duty) to liberate the slave pen. As long as some human beings choose to deal with other human beings with the whip, the chain and the gun — with stonings, fatwahs and holocausts — with the torture chamber, the dungeon and the gulag — as long as some men continue to enslave and attempt to enslave others, then wars will continue to happen, we will continue to need to be ready to defend ourselves, and we should all remember to thank and respect those who take on that job.
As George Orwell is supposed to have said, “People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” Or as David Kopel concludes, if you want to give thanks for peace, then thank a soldier.
If we have things worth living for — and we do — then for that much at least we all have things worth defending. As Thomas Jefferson observed over two-hundred years ago, the price of our liberty is eternal vigilance. Two-hundred years later, nothing has changed. If war is horrific, then tyranny is worse……”

Pretty clear, eh? A big hand for Peter Cresswell…….

Hmmm, I can guess why the likes of BillyBorker doesn’t like war………
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April 25, 2009 12:42pm
wikiriwhis business

“Note that Jesus is not a conscientious objector.”

THats one of the most powerful phrases I’ve heard in my life.

I see in that the need for war without glorifying war.

Because such is the reality.
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April 25, 2009 1:05pm
wikiriwhis business

“……(Wars) are the second-worst thing on earth only because the very worst is tyranny:”

Mugabe proves this pointedly.
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April 25, 2009 1:07pm
thedavincimode

Komata says:

“I DO notice that you haven’t addressed my point about ..”

I say, did you really expect him to!!

“… it was revealing.”

Indeed, Pretty standard fare for Mr bob-each-way borker.

So lets just pull this apart this stunning riposte and boil it all down.

“What a vast number off ridiculous assertions you have made.”

Translation: Buggar, how am I going to weasel out of this?

“So, to the facts.”

Translation: yeah, right

“I am not NZ born.”

Translation: bloody hell, how could they not notice that??!!

“I was subject to conscripition in Aus, and I was opposed to that.

Translation: No way I’m getting in the showers with all those blokes.

“Surely the libertarians, and those others who claim to exalt individual freedom here would support my stance in opposition to forced labour? “

Translation: A good opportunity to get a bit of self-righteous sanctimonious bluster in. It usually does the trick and shows how clever I am.

“I’ll bypass the rest of your stuff, at is irrelevant construct of your mind”

Translation: too tricky, best not go there

“notheing to do with the facts.”

Translation: ie my version of the facts. Buggar, I missed that typo.

“There is no courage in attending a polling booth in NZ.”

Translation: which is why I do

“Maybe there was for the first women and maori to cast their votes.”

Translation: Oops, nearly forgot to patronise wimin and the locals on some utterly facile pretext so that I can create the illusion of a social conscience in preference to a warped and fucked up personality. I’ll slip that in here.

“But in case you hadn’t noticed, dissent is not only permitted”

Translation: they’re all too stupid to realise I equate having a bob each way as some form of legitimate principled dissent

“We”
Translation: I wonder if they’ll notice that one??

“I didn’t support conscription in Aus when I was living there”

Translation: so I dragged my sorry 18th century embittered arse over to NZ

“ I do support the laws of NZ now I live here”

Translation: when it suits me

“I guess I am OK on both accounts.”

Translation: “I’m OK, you’re OK, he’s a lumberjack and we’re all OK …

“I will, however, resist and oppose any law that I find acts against my conscience”

Translation: ie that doesn’t suit me

“And that, again, is the duty of citizenship.”

Translation: a bit more self-righteous bluster should do nicely here. I just hope that arsehole PhilBest doesn’t see this and make some smart-arsed comment like ‘Marxism and its subsidiary streams are means of enabling intellectually lazy and dishonest people to be experts on anything without actually knowing any facts.’

“So yes, as a citizen of a secular democracy, I can have it both ways.”

Translation: Damn. Why does that subliminal shower thing keep coming through??

“And finally, I am not a member of any political party”

Translation: no-one will have me

“I leave myself free to support good policy and opose bad policy”

Translation: Its good to be the king and define what’s good and what’s bad. Just wish I could sort those typos quicker

“Again, that’s citizenship, not the partisanship you mob blindly follow.”

Translation: whoops, that’s twice now. If PhilBest sees this I’m fucked.
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April 25, 2009 1:19pm
wikiriwhis business

“Hooray.

Great news.

Jim Salinger sacked from NIWA.

Every person supporting truth on the GW issue should rejoice at this news.

This scaremongering United Nations IPCC propagandist should have been fired years ago for his alarmist crap, not in the least his false predictions regarding sea level rises. The damage he has done to NZ’s national psyche on this issue is enormous.

A great step forward for truth and light and freedom in New Zealand.

(see the Watermelons are squealing- this is a sure sign of what a great event it is)”

Isn’t just a matter of time.

In ten years Tuvalu is still going to be there and GW is going to be struggling to maintain credibility.

Surely.
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April 25, 2009 1:19pm
PhilBest

It is just in-freakin’-credible how far ahead of NZ the Aussies are in their attitudes to a whole lot of things. There are things that Howard stood for, that Rudd wouldn’t dream of undoing; but in NZ, John Key wouldn’t dream of suggesting those same things, or he’d lose the next election.

Look at THIS in “The Australian”;

“Kevin Rudd is set to order Australia’s biggest military buildup since WW2………”

New F-35 fighter jets, new submarines, anti-missile missiles……….

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25383010-601,00.html

While NZ continues its disgraceful free-loading ways.
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April 25, 2009 1:26pm
PhilBest

Oh, and another bit of editorial from “The Australian”

“Naval Boost a bid for regional power”

“Kevin Rudd wants Australia to be able to exercise more strategic weight in what promises to be a more volatile and dynamic Asia-Pacific region……….”

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25382933-31477,00.html
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April 25, 2009 1:32pm
PhilBest

thedavincimode @ 1.19

Brilliant……! Hilarious…….! Well done. Thanks for the nods, too.

Do take the time to read it, everybody……
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April 25, 2009 1:38pm
Komata

thedavincimode

A most interesting and considered analysis, sir – thank you.

Further developments and a riposte are of course awaited with interest.
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April 25, 2009 2:02pm
Redbaiter

theDavincimode- thanks for the laff. So right.
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April 25, 2009 2:24pm
Jack5

Worth a thought on Anzac Day: the shoddy treatment of Ghurkas who have been our allies in war for a century or more.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/5212923/New-rules-on-Gurkhas-right-to-live-in-Britain-condemned-by-Joanna-Lumley.html

Given our propensity to allow Muslim stirrers like Zaouai to stay in New Zealand plus the 100 or so who admit to liking Al Qaeda, plus some rapists who blame their criminality on alleged abuse abroad, we could have accepted some of the Gurkha families into NZ.
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April 25, 2009 2:37pm
johnbt

Surely if Billyborker was totally ignored it would eventually go away. Please.
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April 25, 2009 3:23pm
Ross Miller

Billyborker’s trying to rewrite history again. David Irving would be proud of him. He said “I was a conscientious objector to the Vietnam war, and prepared to be jailed rather than conscripted”.

Billy, I will say this s l o w e l y for your benefit. As New Zealand didn’t have conscription in the 1960/70s there is no way you could have been a conscientious objector to that war.

The last time we had conscription for active service was when a Labour Government introduced it (partially) during WW2. And lets not even go down the track of commenting on the irony of WW2 Labour Cabinet Ministers who as jailed conscientious objectors in WW1 jailed those who in WW2 followed them down that path.

Those caught up in National Service in the 19T0s/1970s were NOT repeat NOT eligible to go to Vietnam. They only way they could have gone was to apply to transfer from the Territorial Force to the Regular Force (and yes some did). But if you didn’t want to go you didn’t go … end of story. I even had one soldier in my Platoon in Malaysia who fronted to me two weeks before we deployed and said he wanted out … and he was. I mean why would you even consider taking someone who didn’t want to be there. He would have been an unnecessary risk and distraction.

So your so called high moral position is rant, cant and hubris … fits though.
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April 25, 2009 5:13pm
joeAverage

Dad you were a fool to be a ambulance driver in the western desert in the fight against Rommel. billy borker an australian said you were a blind fool for caring stretchers and tending the wounded but billy borkers posts would sound silly posted in japanise or german , but hell hes an Australian and that burden would warp any mans views ps DAD (long dead) you did our country and family proud, and thanks for giving BB the chance to call you a blind fool. JSF
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April 25, 2009 5:19pm
billyborker

Ross Miller (1098) Vote: 1 1 Says:

April 25th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Billyborker’s trying to rewrite history again. David Irving would be proud of him. He said “I was a conscientious objector to the Vietnam war, and prepared to be jailed rather than conscripted”.

Billy, I will say this s l o w e l y for your benefit. As New Zealand didn’t have conscription in the 1960/70s there is no way you could have been a conscientious objector to that war.

Go back and read what I wrote.

I will say this LOUDLY FOR YOUR BENEFIT – I AM NOT A NATIVE BORN KIWI. I AM AN AUSTRALIAN AND AS SUCH WAS LIABLE FOR CONSCRIPTION.
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April 25, 2009 5:49pm
joeAverage

Billy go home and bore Australians .please
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April 25, 2009 6:00pm
billyborker

JOE, i AM HOME.
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April 25, 2009 6:16pm
joeAverage

And the band played Waltzing Matilda as Billy Borker came home 🙁 a shattered blogg poster
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April 25, 2009 6:30pm
big bruv

Guys

By all means have a good crack at Borker because he is a c**t, but please, on this of all days do not have a crack at him because he is an Aussie.

Today means a lot of things to a lot of people, IMHO it is a day to remember those who fought and those who did not return and to also remember that many who did not return were our Aussie cousins.
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April 25, 2009 6:39pm
thedavincimode

joeAverage

Yes Joe. In the world according to bob-each-way borker, your old man was a bit of a mug. What’s more, if your old man didn’t get a medal, or he didn’t get any recognition beyond that of his family, friends and mates, or didn’t get any satisfaction other than knowing that he did his best and made a difference to the people that needed him when the chips were down, then I guess you haven’t read the script. You’re meant to be a bitter and twisted waste of space with a grudge against the world.

BEWborker seems to take comfort from the argument that it takes more courage to say no and not follow “blindly’. Why, BEWborker was so brave, he ran away to NZ where he wouldn’t have to say no, in order to say NO! That’s courage Joe; the kind of courage that your old man and the old boys on TV tonight clearly didn’t have.

Poor old BEWborker. I guess he saw the news and got pissed off he didn’t get his arse out of bed so he could get down and tell the old guys to their faces what a stupid bunch of war mongering baby eating old gits they were.
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April 25, 2009 6:49pm
joeAverage

Sorry big Bruv for bring Australia into it today our fighting comrades OUR BEST MATES(sorry bad post BB) , should have waited 24 hrs as they treat us as second rate fuckwits and a source of amusment.
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April 25, 2009 6:59pm
dad4justice

Joe don’t ever listen to any bb, borker or bruv!!
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April 25, 2009 7:01pm

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