General Debate 4 April 2009

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billyborker

Here we go again.

“Jurors could be given more information about alleged criminals’ past offending…”

I am yet to see a single convincing argument as to how this adds anything to the justice process.

The arguments usually run along the lines of A was found not guilty, but the jury wasn’t told he had x prior convictions” as if in some way the prior convictions make up for the lack of evidence presented in the current trial.

This proposal, if implemented, will undermine justice by

1. Giving juries extraneous material to deal with, thus over riding the beyond reasonable doubt provisions.

2. Lead to lazy policing as some police will be more inclined to narrow their suspects to a list of those with prior convictions.

IF evidence of prior convictions is seen as compelling evidence of further offending then surely the lack of prior convictions must be accepted as poroof of innocence. You cannot have it both ways.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2314018/Crims-history-in-trial-review
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April 4, 2009 9:36am
billyborker

bloody loss of edit!
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April 4, 2009 9:36am
Patrick Starr

” am yet to see a single convincing argument as to how this adds anything to the justice process”

Dont know if you’ve ever been a juror but when considering the test of beyond reasonable doubt it is certainly helpful to know if the defendant is capable of the crime
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April 4, 2009 9:56am
billyborker

Sorry pat, but that’s still not a convincing argument.

Wouldn’t it be more helpful if the evidence was compelling? That the prosecution presented a clear and coherent case. We are all just about capable of just about anything.

I have never killed, but am probably capable of killing if my own life is under threat.
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April 4, 2009 9:59am
philu

here is one for the stat-heads out there..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/the-startling-effects-of-going-vegetarian-for-just-one-day/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 10:03am
philu

and perhaps toad..that walking hunk of reactionary hypocrisy..

..that ‘green’ who every day brutalises kills animals..

..should also read it..

..as further confirmation of what walking aberrations carnivorous greens are..

..sorta like..a labourite running a sweatshop..

..a natty arguing for pay increases for the lowest paid..

..or an actite arguing for more help for sole parents..

..eh..?

in the eye-watering level of ‘denial’..

..each of those examples display..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 10:08am
Patrick Starr

“Wouldn’t it be more helpful if the evidence was compelling? ”

yes it would, but unfortunately its often not the case. If the threshold is beyond reasonable doubt it certainly assists to know if the defendant has a history of that type of crime

“I have never killed, but am probably capable of killing if my own life is under threat.”

then next to the suspect who has previously been convicted of murders you would probably be of reasonable doubt. It’s not saying you didnt, but its saying you’re less likely to
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April 4, 2009 10:14am
philu

this one wouldn’t hurt..either..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/the-success-of-drug-decriminalization-in-portugal-2/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 10:28am
Christopher

Scenario:

Prosecution: “We have circumstantial evidence that Mr X may have molested a horse.”

Jury: “Sorry, there is still some doubt as to this otherwise-innocent man’s guilt, so no conviction.”

What the jury didn’t know: 6,257 prior convictions for molesting horses.

I object to the expansion of the police state more than anyone else I know, and the presumption of innocence is paramount, but there is nothing inconsistent about allowing juries to know of prior convictions. It is accurate, reliable information.
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April 4, 2009 10:33am
Christopher

this one wouldn’t hurt..either..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/the-success-of-drug-decriminalization-in-portugal-2/

phil(whoar.co.nz)

Phil, I completely agree!

Thank you for finally becoming a liberal!

So, am I to take it that you will now vote for the total abolition of the welfare state, 0% income tax, deregulation of all market activities and removal of all race-based government initiatives?
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April 4, 2009 10:35am
kiwipolemicist

Komrade Kedgley is at it again, trying to force school tuck shops to sell only healthy food.

What do you think about this idea?

Yesterday I witnessed a scene that caused to me to ponder the effectiveness of Kedgley’s plan:
http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2009/04/04/sue-kendgely-cant-force-people-to-live-healthy-lives/
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April 4, 2009 10:37am
billyborker

Christopher (269) Vote: 0 0 Says:

April 4th, 2009 at 10:33 am

I object to the expansion of the police state more than anyone else I know, and the presumption of innocence is paramount, but there is nothing inconsistent about allowing juries to know of prior convictions. It is accurate, reliable information.

It is accurate historical information that does not speak to the truth of current charges.

OK, so you have 5000 prior convictions for molesting horses, and because of that, get convicted.

I was the actuall offender, but as I had no prior convictions, I didbn’t even come under suspicion. Or, if I did, I was able to point to my clean record and say “Your honour,, I didn’t do it, but Christopher did. Look at all his prior convictions>

Is that how you think justice works?
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April 4, 2009 10:41am
Neil

Just seen on Fox News another gunmen in a shooting spree in Binghamton, New York.
I am a great believer in freedom but I scratch my head to understand the stance of countries with very liberal laws in relation to the possession of firearms. Americans are so fond on their constitution where the right to bear arms is written into granite.
The number of “fruit cakes” who possess guns and then run amok is truly disasterous. How can such organizations like the National Rifle Association(NRA) have so much power and credibility in the USA. The freedom to carry arms amongst the carnage of a dozen people being killed in a small semi-rural city in upstate New York is surely a statement of folly.
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April 4, 2009 10:43am
reid

I think you have a point, billy.

Unfortunately, I don’t think most people would be discerning enough to look past prior convictions and look objectively at the evidence. As soon as they knew there were priors, their mind would be made up (either consciously or subconsciously) and they’d selectively attend to the evidence.

If you didn’t think that would happen, it would simple to test. Just run a series of mock trials with that knowledge being the only variable and see what happens to the verdicts.

It’s a fairly fundamental concept and deserves significant analysis and not just within the legal profession.
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April 4, 2009 10:44am
Patrick Starr

“It is accurate historical information that does not speak to the truth of current charges.”

so when Clark sent Williams to skulk around for the Neutron Bomb it had nothing to do with attempting to change the mind of the voters?

You may as well tell employers not to ask for prior employment history of job candidates – because according to you it has nothing to do with the ‘current’ circumstances.
Also should we ignore the consumers institute when seeking history on a brand we are considering buying?
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April 4, 2009 10:48am
dad4justice

In the land of innocence before proved guilt I do wonder how many rejected Court of Appeal decisions are based around the grounds when a judge resorts to extensive questioning, particularly of the kind that amounts to cross examination in a criminal trial before a jury then he is treading on thin ice. Innocent men are not only up against a bent police prosecution team but a dishonest judge. Many defence barristers are frustrated by this sad indictment.
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April 4, 2009 10:55am
kiwipolemicist

Neil: The number of “fruit cakes” who possess cars and then run amok is truly disastrous.

Should we ban cars as well?
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April 4, 2009 11:04am
goodgod

What the jury didn’t know: 6,257 prior convictions for molesting horses.

Not a good example. Few criminals have 5,000+ similar convictions. What we see on daily basis is manX accused of burglary, with 4 previous assault charges. Borker is winning this argument. Even if a woman is known to lay false rape complaints in the past, her complaint of rape must be investigated. There is no way around those who cry wolf out of malice. If the woman has a history of false complaints, it should change the style of investigation the police carry out. Instead of assuming the man to be guilty and following all evidence to that end, they should widen the net to find the truth, including investigation of the complainant. This is the proper use of prior conviction knowledge and flies in the face of the current ideology that instructs police to support the rape complainant and ensure their complaint process is as easy as possible and exempt from investigation. There’s no good use of it in the courtroom as it suggests the case has not be fully investigated and is being constructed while the case proceeds – laziness.
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April 4, 2009 11:12am
reid

and perhaps toad..that walking hunk of reactionary hypocrisy….that ‘green’ who every day brutalises kills animals….should also read it….as further confirmation of what walking aberrations carnivorous greens are….sorta like..a labourite running a sweatshop….a natty arguing for pay increases for the lowest paid….or an actite arguing for more help for sole parents….eh..?in the eye-watering level of ‘denial’….each of those examples display..

phil, I have a question, it’s puzzled me for some time.

Compassion for dumb animals is a mark of high wisdom. Most people are neutral or affectionate towards animals but to order your lifestyle along the lines you do requires a further step of self-sacrifice and it is usually only done as a result of living the much more intense emotion of compassion as a permanent state. No-one gets to this stage without a long hard journey of deliberation, dawning understanding and self-denial.

Now to the wise man, this state of compassion is universal, extended to all. However you and others like you, appear to dispense your compassion in a discriminatory way. You appear to believe that some living things “deserve” it and others don’t, in that those others need condemnation. Which is of course the exact opposite of compassion.

It’s interesting because your attitude, to me, indicates that rather than recognising one of the universal laws as such, you’ve merely stumbled upon it. There are millions like you with this same set of beliefs, we saw more than a few at the recent G20 protests.

I was just wondering if it’s ever occurred to you that it might be beneficial to extend your attitudes re: dumb animals toward your fellow travelers as well? You might want to think about it since it increases your own understanding and thereby your power to make a beneficial difference to the world by several orders of magnitude. Maintaining a condemnatory position rarely achieves anything.
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April 4, 2009 11:20am
getstaffed

I tend to side with those that view an official release of prior convictions as unnecessarily clouding the evidence of the case in hand. The extent of prior convictions should be considered in passing sentence – as I believe already happens.

A possible problem with suppression of an accused’s record is that the internet has a long memory, and the long arm of the law to suppress that memory isn’t quite long enough!
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April 4, 2009 11:23am
goodgod

You may as well tell employers not to ask for prior employment history of job candidates – because according to you it has nothing to do with the ‘current’ circumstances.
Also should we ignore the consumers institute when seeking history on a brand we are considering buying?

both of these analogies are not relevent because unlike an employer or a consumer the jury is not authorised to conduct it’s own investigtion of the case, just what is presented.

Based on your example, theoretically, any present NZ politician and any car made by GM should either never have been rehired after the first term or bought since 1960.

But people regularly buy cars, and employers regularly ignore information for better and worse.
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April 4, 2009 11:35am
Razork

Christopher (269) Vote: 1 1 Says:

April 4th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Scenario:

Prosecution: “We have circumstantial evidence that Mr X may have molested a horse.”

Jury: “Sorry, there is still some doubt as to this otherwise-innocent man’s guilt, so no conviction.”

What the jury didn’t know: 6,257 prior convictions for molesting horses.

I object to the expansion of the police state more than anyone else I know, and the presumption of innocence is paramount, but there is nothing inconsistent about allowing juries to know of prior convictions. It is accurate, reliable information.

SO, Mr X is from Cambridge then?
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April 4, 2009 11:39am
goodgod

A possible problem with suppression of an accused’s record is that the internet has a long memory, and the long arm of the law to suppress that memory isn’t quite long enough!

It shouldn’t be suppressed, just disallowed in the courtroom or jury room. If jurymanX goes home and dials up a record of the accused and then tries to convince the jury based on evidence not in the trial, it will be pretty plain. Even if jurymanX does not speak of his additional knowledge but begins to display irrational emphasis on minor official evidence he will be revealed as less than convincing. Banning information has a conunteractive approach to justice. People must learn that justice is not biased and that the truth is not gained by refusing to look at all the evidence, but considering only that which is relevent to the case.

And that’s enough wiffling from me today. 😉
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April 4, 2009 11:40am
reid

Just seen on Fox News another gunmen in a shooting spree in Binghamton, New York. I am a great believer in freedom but I scratch my head to understand the stance of countries with very liberal laws in relation to the possession of firearms. Americans are so fond on their constitution where the right to bear arms is written into granite.

One aspect of the conspiracy theory world Neil is that sometimes these shooting incidents are engineered in order to promote arms reductions amongst the civilian population. This makes them easier to control when and if needed. For example, if riots were to become a permanent part of the US landscape and it became necessary to lock up hundreds of thousands of US citizens in all of those empty FEMA camps dotted round the country…

Often after a shocking incident there is a renewed call to limit personal arms and for example we saw exactly that in Australia following Bryant. Whether that limitation ever achieves anything in terms of reducing these incidents is an open question.

Please don’t imagine I’m suggesting I believe this, it’s merely an aspect of conspiracy theory germane to your point.
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April 4, 2009 11:43am
andrei

Just seen on Fox News another gunmen in a shooting spree in Binghamton, New York.
I am a great believer in freedom but I scratch my head to understand the stance of countries with very liberal laws in relation to the possession of firearms. Americans are so fond on their constitution where the right to bear arms is written into granite.

How do you explain this recent case from Germany with its tight gun laws then? And Germany had another similar incident about eighteen months before that.

The country with the highest firearm ownership per head of population is Switzerland and they have thus far been spared this phenomenon which has manifested itself in many countries including New Zealand, Australia, Great Britain, France and Canada.

And what to make of this – encouragement for more of the same, bewilderment that it occurs or exploitation of a tragedy?
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April 4, 2009 11:52am
reid

I object to the expansion of the police state more than anyone else I know, and the presumption of innocence is paramount, but there is nothing inconsistent about allowing juries to know of prior convictions. It is accurate, reliable information.

Yes but razork, human beings are not logical automatons who can be relied upon always to make the logical decision.

I’ve been on one jury and it was extremely intense and emotional for everyone since it wasn’t an open and shut case and had a significant penalty. That famous film 12 Angry Men was right on the money in terms of the emotions it portrayed. In such circumstances logic and objectivity can take a backseat despite everyone’s best intentions. It shouldn’t of course, but it can.

I don’t imagine this was a unique experience and recognition that this dynamic can arise during deliberations, is probably one reason why the jury system has been designed like it has.

When you’re talking about a person’s liberty, the design of the system deserves to be based on conservative principles which are weighted in favour of the defendant. Changing this weighting cuts to the core of the justice system.
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April 4, 2009 11:53am
getstaffed

AIRCON by Ian Wishart

The Sky Is Falling
“Chicken Little was in the woods one day when an acorn fell on her head. It scared her so much she trembled all over. She shook so hard, half her feathers fell out. “Help! Help!” she cried. “The sky is falling! I have to go tell the king!”
– Act I, The Story of Chicken Little

The story of Chicken Little is the story of our times. Frankly, it should be a Hollywood blockbuster. Hang on, Al Gore’s already produced it. How silly of me. The tale of the chook that misinterpreted a natural event bears striking similarities to some modern roosters currently globetrotting the planet in a cloud of contrails and jetfuel, warning all of us the sky is warming, and the acorn trees are dying.

Despite two decades of hype and dire warnings though, the public are fast getting heartily sick of hearing about global warming and how all our grandkids are going to need flippers and a snorkel just to go downtown of a Friday evening. A recent Pew research poll found a staggering 41% of Americans now believe global warming has been “exaggerated” by its believers – the highest level of doubt recorded. On a list of the top 20 concerns for the public, global warming came in, well, 20th.

But don’t be fooled. Just because the public aren’t taking it seriously anymore doesn’t mean vast armies of lobby groups, climate change believers and politicians won’t sign the new Copenhagen Treaty at the end of the year, selling your families into financial slavery to the UN and its multinational carbon-trading minions for the next century.

There is an awful lot riding on the global warming industry. Vast fortunes stand to be made by some on the inside, and where there’s money there’s power and greed close behind. Would you be willing to bet next month’s wages that the Copenhagen Treaty won’t go ahead, just because the public increasingly don’t believe any more? I wouldn’t take that wager.
It’ll take more than a stake through the heart and a necklace of garlic to keep global warming believers from achieving their stated goals over the next few years.

Which is why I’ve written Air Con. I wanted to go on a voyage of discovery about global warming and to follow the evidence where it leads, using my experience as an investigative journalist. I explain, as we go through, what I believe about it and why, so I won’t distract you with the detail at this point.

For the record, because I know the believers will work themselves into a lather over this book, I have not sought, been offered, nor accepted, a cent from “Big Oil”, “Big Industry”, “The Cigarette Smoking Man” or in fact anyone else, to write this book and publish it. Heidi and I own an independent book publishing, magazine and newspaper business which has published dozens of books by various authors over the years, many of them bestsellers.

In fact, the publishing empire was born when major publishing houses were threatened behind the scenes with massive lawsuits if they handled my first book, The Paradise Conspiracy, on the international tax haven dealings of some major corporates. A security sweep at my office inside Television New Zealand confirmed the phone lines had been bugged, my home suffered break-ins, copies of the manuscript were taken and there was an attempt on my life when the brakes on my vehicle were sabotaged – an incident that prompted the Mitsubishi dealership to call in police when they found the damage. Surrender, however, was not an option: the house was mortgaged, money was borrowed from family, and a fully-fledged publishing company emerged with a predatory wolf as its logo and a take-no-prisoners attitude to match. Air Con is just the latest in that fiercely independent pedigree.

Planet Earth is in the grip of Chicken Little Syndrome, and frankly that makes this not just an important story but a compelling story. If humans are really the major cause of global warming via greenhouse gas emissions, and the planet will keel over and die if we don’t do something urgently, then I’d be among the first to be storming the barricades of complacency. But if significant warming (catastrophic) is not actually happening, or if it is but it is caused by Nature, not humans, then frankly I don’t see the point in throwing the world’s economy down the plughole if it’s not going to stop the warming. King Canute found he could not order the tide to stop coming in. If global warming is a planetary tide that we have no control over, why waste money and time trying to stop it?

As you go through this book, you’re going to be reading some science. Nothing to be afraid of, in fact it’s essential if you have any hope of finding out whether you’ve been conned by the global warming industry.
:
:
This steamroller machine to introduce carbon taxes and emissions cuts at the end of this year has been sold to the public, the media and politicians as utterly essential, regardless of the cost, because “the science is settled”, and we are doomed if we don’t act now.

History is littered with the bodies of stupid people who did things in haste because their leaders assured them it was “utterly essential, regardless of the cost”. This book is a direct challenge to that kind of mentality, primarily showing that not only is the science not settled, but that the current panic over climate change has been deliberately provoked to cover a deeper agenda. I have bent over backwards in this book to quote peer-reviewed studies by leading scientists that show a healthy and ongoing debate about the reality and extent of global warming. I’m sure some of my critics will attempt to cherry pick their lines of attack, but the totality of the studies leaves little room for doubt that warming is largely natural in origin, and probably overestimated because of the dubious quality of international surface temperature sensors and sea level gauges.
After reading Air Con, if you hear anyone on a blogsite, in a newspaper or on TV trying to denigrate sceptics as just “deniers”, and assuring you “the science is settled”, I suspect like me you’ll be rolling all over the floor laughing so hard it’ll take you a week to stand up. The science may be many things, but settled it isn’t. And when there’s so much of your future and your family’s future at stake in the outcome of this debate, the last thing you need to hear are meaningless, patronising platitudes. This book is a weapon against spin and propaganda. Use it well.
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April 4, 2009 11:53am
andrei

Dam the loss of the edit function – a broken tag that cannot be repaired by a mere mortal commenter.
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April 4, 2009 11:54am
reid

Switzerland is interesting isn’t it Andrei? I wish we were like that.

I understand it’s actually compulsory for citizens who’ve served in the military to keep a working firearm in their houses.

It’s also compulsory for citizens to serve in the military.

This discipline and knowledge of firearms instilled by the military is probably the reason why Switzerland is low in this statistic.
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April 4, 2009 11:57am
philu

“..I was just wondering if it’s ever occurred to you that it might be beneficial to extend your attitudes re: dumb animals toward your fellow travelers as well?..”

i am puzzled by that question..

are you presenting that as a reason i should not speak up for what i know is right..?

and to my mind..

the hatred/condemnation around here usually comes from the rightie usual suspects..

i don’t really ‘hate’ anyone..

i come here to argue/challenge ideas..

(but if someone else ‘satrts it’..i won’t usually hold back..eh..?..

just ask toad..heh..!..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

i mean..sheesh..!..i’ve even sat and conversed in a civilised manner to the likes of adolf/whaleoil..

how much more tolerance than that can uou ask/expect..?

..(chrs for yr ‘compassion’ comments re vegan lifestyle tho’..)
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April 4, 2009 12:03pm
philu

“..I was just wondering if it’s ever occurred to you that it might be beneficial to extend your attitudes re: dumb animals toward your fellow travelers as well?..

do you mean dumb righties..?..(a ‘definition’ i itself..eh..?)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 12:08pm
philu

“..Komrade Kedgley is at it again, trying to force school tuck shops to sell only healthy food.

What do you think about this idea?.”

i think all you fat/corpulent/carnivorous righties insisting on eating you and yours’ way to an early grave..should continue to do so..

..and we can just let natural selection take it’s course/take care of business….?

..eh..?

(is that what you meant by tolerance/’compassion’..?..there..reid..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 12:13pm
Owen McShane

So what does philu do about animals that eat other animals?
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April 4, 2009 12:15pm
reid

I didn’t mention hatred phil, merely condemnation.

Condemnation arises from value judgements.

And who are you to imagine you are better than anyone else?
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April 4, 2009 12:21pm
philu

owen mcshane once again displays the depth/width of his ignorance..(‘what melting ice-floes..?.’..’where’s my oil-company cheque..?..).)

and is instantly shortlisted for ‘stupid question of the day’..nay..month..award..

(oops..!..is my ‘compassion’ slipping..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 12:23pm
philu

i don’t think ‘i am better than anyone else..’..

..i can just see the raft of reasons not to eat animals..

and am trying to pass that information/awareness on to others..

..who may not yet have thought it through..

..and if it is a ‘value-judgment’ to condemn the vile unspeakable cruelties done to living/feeling creatures..

..just to feed carnivores’ addiction to the flesh/fat of those animals..?

hey..!..i’ll wear the ‘value-judgment’ t-shirt..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 12:28pm
reid

And that’s fine phil, if you limit yourself to that aspect.

However your original post drew comparisons between your attitude and those of others and made assumptions as to the drivers of certain behaviours you’ve observed, in a condemnatory manner.

That was what I was referring to.
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April 4, 2009 12:34pm
philu

“..However your original post drew comparisons between your attitude and those of others and made assumptions as to the drivers of certain behaviours you’ve observed, in a condemnatory manner..”

how so..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 12:39pm
getstaffed

OK, someone mentioned Switzerland. Sorry, couldn’t resist… the Swiss News. 🙂
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April 4, 2009 12:42pm
cha

An eye watering £187,334 a year claimed by Labour MP for Falkirk Eric Joyce.
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April 4, 2009 12:46pm
philu

is he related to our ‘hollow-man’-template..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 12:52pm
reid

How so, phil?

“….as further confirmation of what walking aberrations carnivorous greens are….sorta like..a labourite running a sweatshop….a natty arguing for pay increases for the lowest paid….or an actite arguing for more help for sole parents….eh..?”

Let’s see. The assumption that a Nat doesn’t have compassion for the lowest paid, the assumption that an “Actite” doesn’t care about helping sole parents.

How else is one to interpret your words?
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April 4, 2009 12:57pm
philu

how else is one to interpret their policies/actions/’beliefs’..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 1:20pm
andrei

I reckon they should run this Ad on Paul Henry’s show.

mind you it is targeted at bearded nether regions rather than hirsute lips.
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April 4, 2009 1:21pm
reid

“how else is one to interpret their policies/actions/’beliefs’..?”

There you go again, phil. Your words indicate that from their actions you believe you can understand their motives.

How can you possibly conclude that?
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April 4, 2009 1:30pm
philu

what’s to ‘understand..?

‘self-interest’/class-war’greed pretty much covers it..eh..?

and..dosen’t it apply that..’by their actions shall you know them’..?

(c.f..national gives government-handout to the already wealthy..increases the burden on the poorest/worst-off..)

as i said..

‘what’s to understand?’..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 1:38pm
philu

re ‘henry’..and ‘tache’-jokes..

didyasee how paul holmes is getting the blame for henrys’ words..?

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/paul-holmes-gets-blamed-for-paul-henrys-tache-jokes/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 1:42pm
philu

and should we start a sweepstake as to when key will announce..

‘more troops for afghanistan’..?

simon (‘all the way with bush!’) power will have his war-fever sated..

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 1:49pm
reid

“what’s to ‘understand..? ’self-interest’/class-war’greed pretty much covers it..eh..?”

That’s the issue, phil.

You don’t seem to recognise that your view of the way the world works might not be accurate.

Viewing capitalism and human nature in a way that leads one to the conclusions you draw is to me, inaccurate. Perhaps I’m wrong and perhaps I’m not.

However you don’t appear to recognise that possibility in yourself, which is perhaps why you feel comfortable making the judgements you do.
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April 4, 2009 2:01pm
philu

do i think a ‘civilised’ society has a responsibility/duty to care for those unable..for whatever reason..to care for themselves..?

..and not just kick them to the gutter..?

yes..i think so/’make that judgment’..

do i see any way how that political ‘belief’/idea is ‘wrong’..?

no..i don’t..

..and i feel very ‘comfortable’ about how i have come to that conclusion/realisation..

btw..how do you possibly justify..on any level..your dog-eat-dog/fuck-the-poor beliefs/attitudes..?

how on earth can you feel ‘comfortable’ with that ‘judgment’..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 2:17pm
philu

btw..i wonder how all those dumb/ignorant/dip-shit working poor who voted for ‘change’/’that nice mr key’..

(the ones who believed/were ‘suckered by the ‘closing the wage gap with australia’ promises/bullshit..

..and all the rest of that ‘lying/hollow’ election campaign..

..are feeling about now..?

..more than slightly nauseous..

..i would hope..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 2:25pm
reid

do i think a ‘civilised’ society has a responsibility/duty to care for those unable..for whatever reason..to care for themselves..?

Yes, it’s the very measure of a civilised society.

..and not just kick them to the gutter..?

Yes phil, but which approach actually makes that happen? Is it people who unintentionally degrade the otherwise unlimited potential of human beings by making them think they’re helpless creatures who can’t grow without the help of a nanny state? Or is it people who intentionally want to unleash their potential by allowing them as much as practical, unlimited opportunity? Which one of those alternatives “kicks them into the gutter?”

btw..how do you possibly justify..on any level..your dog-eat-dog/fuck-the-poor beliefs/attitudes..?

See above, mate. If you think human freedom is about dog-eat-dog/fuck-the-poor then I suggest you look again at what makes people do what they do.

Freedom to choose is freedom to do the wrong thing or the right thing. Otherwise it’s not freedom. This includes freedom to give money to others or to hoard it yourself, to make a bad investment or a good investment, to hurt others or to help others, to be selfish or selfless, to be hateful or loving, to be angry or peaceful, to donate money to a street person or to walk on by, etc, etc, etc. All choices have consequences and life is a process of discerning which are the right and which are the wrong choices. Having a govt or any other body determine for you which are the right choices and which are the wrong is not only an abrogation of the most basic right (the freedom to choose), it also denies people the ability to learn and grow.

Understanding which are the right choices is called wisdom. As people grow in wisdom they realise it’s better in every way to give money to others, to make good investments, to help others, to be selfless, to be loving, to be peaceful, to donate money to a street person, etc, etc, etc.

The fact that most people in society often do the wrong thing is merely a reflection of lack of wisdom within those people. Legislating in order to get people to do the right thing however, doesn’t work. It’s pointless for example, legislating to require world peace. This is because wisdom is a personal growth path unaffected by anything external.

At certain times for social order it’s necessary to legislate for example to prevent assault, but you can’t legislate to make people not become angry.

That’s the basic problem with your approach. Poverty, crime etc is caused by people’s attitudes, not by legislative settings. Poverty and crime won’t be eliminated until the majority of people change their attitudes and that includes everyone in the society that has those issues, including those who commit crime or who are in a state of poverty. However you can’t do that by legislating. Imagining you can, is a big mistake.
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April 4, 2009 3:08pm
PhilBest

philu (4079) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 12 Says:
April 4th, 2009 at 10:08 am

“and perhaps toad..that walking hunk of reactionary hypocrisy..

..that ‘green’ who every day brutalises kills animals..

..should also read it..

..as further confirmation of what walking aberrations carnivorous greens are…”

Philu, it is YOUR type who are the walking aberrations, from the human race. The fact that Toad eats more normally than you is a mark in his favour. I really sometimes wonder about the kinks in the psyche that result in your kind of attitude to animals.
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April 4, 2009 3:43pm
PhilBest

Philu, why do you call welfare, giving people something for nothing, “kicking them to the gutter”………

There ARE societies in the world today, and have been throughout history, where that really does happen.

Charities for the poor only came about under a combination of Christianity and capitalism.

In communist countries, there is no equivalent. There is no unemployment for the simple reason that nobody is allowed NOT to work, and nobody is allowed to be fussy about what work they are prepared to do. You’d probably be in a forced labour camp if you lived in Cuba or North Korea.

You could show a bit of gratitude.

If I had my way, NZ would have no unemployment and we’d have a lot of cheaply built national highways.
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April 4, 2009 3:58pm
PhilBest

Of course, welfarism itself HAS “kicked people to the gutter”. That is how you produce a Kahui family.

Is that what you really mean, Philu? Have you had an epiphany?
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April 4, 2009 4:00pm
billyborker

So phil, let me get this straight. You want a lot of cheaply built highways which must mean a) you require a pool of unemployed and b) you will put them in forced labour camps. You want to bring a little bit of the gulag to NZ.

The alternative, of course, is to pay a decent wage and still get the highways built.

Why can’t fruit growers get enough fruit pickers? Because the wages they offer are too low to attract the labour. Were the growers to increase the price they pay for labour, then they would get the workers they need. It is simply supply and demand free market economics, isn’t it? Funny how the fruit growers prove that the free market doesn’t work, eh?
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April 4, 2009 4:14pm
dad4justice

“Why can’t fruit growers get enough fruit pickers?”

Because the stupid gummint fwits have made the benefit more lucrative@!
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April 4, 2009 4:16pm
philu

“..I really sometimes wonder about the kinks in the psyche that result in your kind of attitude to animals..”

um..!..you brutally farm/kill/eat them..

and i’m the one with ‘the kinks in the psyche”..?

whoar..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 4, 2009 4:28pm
dad4justice

I was a sheep meat slaughterman for twenty years and I paid a lot a tax in between steeling my knives. What did you do?
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April 4, 2009 4:39pm
billyborker

dad4justice (5132) Vote: 2 1 Says:

April 4th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
“Why can’t fruit growers get enough fruit pickers?”

Because the stupid gummint fwits have made the benefit more lucrative@!

Then it is up to the fruitgrowers to offer a higher wage. How much is the dole? How much is that divided by 40 hours? Would you pick fruit for that?
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April 4, 2009 4:53pm
dad4justice

Most fruit growers pay minimum wage, but you know that billy. What are you trying to get at?
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April 4, 2009 5:01pm
billyborker

That maybe, just maybe, if they paid better they’d have less trouble getting workers. They might even get good workers.

Why won’t fruit growers pay above minimum wage?
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April 4, 2009 5:07pm
dad4justice

No, no, silly billy far to clever to be diverted from my point of debate. You nanny state – lefty welfare sods have made a generation dependent on gummint handouts. Look at phool, just imagine his computer rants put to good use for the benefit of all New Zealanders. Welfare sucks and Lairbour just moved the unemployed to sickness benefits etc..etc…

Half of the gangsters in New Zealand are on the sickness benefit. hehe good one bro!!
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April 4, 2009 5:12pm
billyborker

Try again dad – I’ll make the words bigger so they’re easier for you to read Why won’t fruit growers pay above minimum wage?
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April 4, 2009 5:35pm
dad4justice

They do billy , contract workers get heaps of money , but most lefty welfare types wouldn’t work in an iron lung.
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April 4, 2009 5:39pm
expat

Dad has point – why is the benefit so lucrative and available for so long? Especially if there is work available.

As far as why fruit growers pay minimum wage, go ask them. No idea.
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April 4, 2009 5:39pm
Banana Llama

Good point D4J i remember when i was living in Hawkes bay we would always have problems getting pickers on the orchards, it got so bad we started hiring Indians from Tauranga and Auckland, i don’t buy that crap about not enough money either since you could make decent cash if you worked by the bin load instead of getting paid by the hour.
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April 4, 2009 6:50pm
kahikatea

andrei (78) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 0 Says:
April 4th, 2009 at 11:52 am

> The country with the highest firearm ownership per head of population is Switzerland and they have thus far been spared this phenomenon which has manifested itself in many countries including New Zealand, Australia, Great Britain, France and Canada.

true, but the annual rate of firearm murders per capita in Switzerland is still the third highest in the OECD, after the USA and Portugal.
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April 4, 2009 7:38pm
Jack5

Re Kahikateas 7.38 post about Switzerland being third highest for firearm murders in the OECD…

Is that because at every Swiss booze-up where there’s someone called William (or is it Wilhelm?), someone tries to shoot an apple off his head?
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April 4, 2009 10:18pm
wikiriwhis business

A skate boarder in NZ was fined $750 for skating on an empty city road and the police said officer must have thought it was justified; how scary is that.

THe skater refuses to pay it.

WE’re moving into a whole new paradigm that makes history a non issue. Laws, customs, cultures are going to be completely changed. No one will be able to stand out and individuality will not be tolerated. Sound like communism?

Have you noticed Hollywood never shows nudity any more. In fact Playboy was fined recently over a now defunct cable channel. A message being sent that censorship is going to tighten. Watch for adult vids and literature slowly get taken out of circulation.

Almost as if the Taliban is taking over the White House.
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April 5, 2009 9:32am
kahikatea

# Jack5 (384) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
April 4th, 2009 at 10:18 pm

> Is that because at every Swiss booze-up where there’s someone called William (or is it Wilhelm?), someone tries to shoot an apple off his head?

I exrect that every Swiss male over 16 probably has a special military-issue archery bow for that purpose. After all, they have Swiss Army Pack-Mules, Swiss Army Carrier Pigeons, Swiss Army Knives and Swiss Army bicycles. And judging by the range of devices on my Swiss Armny Knife, I can only begin to imagine what fittings a Swiss Army Bicycle would come with 😉
I can’t even begin to imagine what fittings a Swiss Army Homing Pigeon would have.
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April 5, 2009 7:16pm

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