General Debate 21 April 2009

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Inventory2

What is it with Trevor Mallard? He’s made an absolute goose of himself (pardon the avian pun 🙂 ) with his comments over the Palmy North motelier. Too much Heineken perhaps?

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2009/04/flowery-twats-in-balmy-palmy.html
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April 21, 2009 8:05am
Wycroft

Dear Mr Goff,

you’re right, we should have attended that nice anti racisim conference in Geneva. I bow to your superior judgement.
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April 21, 2009 8:07am
dad4justice

Invent2 ;I see that the Ocker motelier has been labeled a Basil Faulty, so that must make the not so clever Trevor a stroppy headstrong Manuel? Where is the fry pan Polly?
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April 21, 2009 8:12am
cha

Right here, right now

After twenty per cent of conservatives voted for Obama, the Republican party was left in tatters. Oliver Burkeman asks key figures – what next?
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April 21, 2009 8:12am
Patrick Starr

agree IV2 – I couldnt work that one out either

“It shows the sort of blind prejudice I thought we didn’t have in New Zealand anymore. I’m not surprised the owner’s Australian.”

ummmm …..Trevor – Think about what you have just said
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April 21, 2009 8:13am
dad4justice

ummmmmmmmm can Trevor think?
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April 21, 2009 8:17am
libertyscott

Well I already have blogged that the Racism conference is exactly the farce plenty of countries thought it would be.

Shame on Labour and the Greens for thinking the government just slavishly followed others, rather than slavishly followed the developing countries. Independent foreign policy does mean that New Zealand can agree with a bunch of Western countries sometimes, it doesn’t mean always agreeing with the UN – which sadly treats everyone as equal, from the best behaved to the murderous tyrants in Sudan and Zimbabwe.

Ahmadinejad made the conference a joke by talking of “supposed suffering of the Jews” – pure evil.
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April 21, 2009 8:22am
Murray

I agree with Trevor, this guy is an Aussie cock and he just piss the hell right off back to Oz as I’ll let him know on my way home this afternoon.

10% of Wellingtons population lives in Wainuiomata for a start and Wainui bashing just puts this jerkoff in the same class as Gary McCormick.
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April 21, 2009 8:28am
Inventory2

Patrick – as I’ve said in my post on the matter, let’s just be glad that Trev’s not suggesting the “Heineken solution” again!
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April 21, 2009 8:29am
dad4justice

Is that short arse runt Ahmadinejad the full quid?
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April 21, 2009 8:38am
Murray

Yee haa look at that negative karma roll in for me.

Any of you kneee jerk reactionaries given any though to this aussie dick wacker having just banned the family of Karl Kuchenbecker from his motel?

See thats what you get when you just run off at the mouth and tar everyone with the one eyed brush. How many of you are passing judgement on 20,000 people (not 16, an elementary fact check) without even being able to find the place on a map? I lived there for seven years and in one day I’d wave to more people than I would in seven years in my native North Shore.
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April 21, 2009 8:40am
goodgod

Ahmadinejad made the conference a joke by talking of “supposed suffering of the Jews” – pure evil.

“…under the pretext of Jewish suffering…” is what was said. It’s important to get that right because the two statements do not have the same meaning and you’ve omitted the context of his words completely. It’s not necessary to twist what was said to discuss the ideas of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Bush, Hitler, Stalin, Obama, Brown…regardless who is speaking, twisting the words will not make your perspective more valid.
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April 21, 2009 8:42am
libertyscott

apologies it wasn’t a deliberate misquote, he talked nonsense of why Israel was set up, nonsense of what Israel is about, and ignores the racism of his own regime.

The context is simple – this man is a homophobic holocaust denying bigot who regards liberal democracy as a failure, and has presided over a country flouting its commitments under the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty, whilst threatening to wipe a UN member state off the map.

He’s been allowed to spout his venom at a forum that is meant to be about racism everywhere – he doesn’t spout it about any other racism.

Meanwhile he also promotes there being restrictions on insulting religions, why would anyone who believes in individual freedom want to support any forum that gives a leader of one of the most abusive regimes in the world a platform?
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April 21, 2009 8:48am
Patrick Starr

“Is that short arse runt Ahmadinejad the full quid?”

take a guess?
http://vwt.d2g.com:8081/gay_ahmadinejad.jpg

but he kinda also reminds me of this short arse runt
http://nicedeb.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/kim-jong-il.jpg
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April 21, 2009 9:01am
Murray

And Gorbels. another short arse genocidal maniac.

He seemed to have issues with Jews too. Didn’t work out too well for him as I recall.
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April 21, 2009 9:05am
davidp

I’m completing a passport renewal. If I couldn’t find a NZ passport holder to witness it, I could pick someone from a list: Lawyer, Police officer, Applicant’s employer, Teacher, Kaumatua, Minister of Religion, or Registered Medical Professional.

Why Kaumatua, but not elders of other ethnic groups? What is it about Maori elders that the Dept of Internal Affairs has found to be trustworthy when compared to the elders of other ethnic groups?
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April 21, 2009 9:05am
Ryan Sproull

Bush, Hitler, Stalin, Obama, Brown…

You forgot Genghis Khan, Charles Manson and Satan.
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April 21, 2009 9:06am
Grant Michael McKenna

Murray, the humour is that the comment by the Honourable Trevor Mallard about “blind prejudice” shows the same prejudice against Australians, but let it pass, let it pass- there is now a proper debate page for it.
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April 21, 2009 9:07am
Murray

Why do you think david?

Grant, crock of poopy. It is not blind preudice to criticise someone for blind predudice. Circular argument with a strawman component.
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April 21, 2009 9:13am
goodgod

The context is simple – this man is a homophobic holocaust denying bigot who regards liberal democracy as a failure, and has presided over a country flouting its commitments under the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty, whilst threatening to wipe a UN member state off the map.

That isn’t the context at all.

homophobia is not a crime in any country I know of. The closest you get to it is laws that give a defence to murder for being approached for sex by a gay man. NZ’s law was repealed. Homophobia as a concept is intellectually vapid.

So no traction on that one.

Bigtry also not a crime, until it merges with racism and then still requires the level of evidence that will stand up in court.

No traction there.

Liberal democracy is as failure. It’s held together with rubberbands, spittle and hot air. It comitts as many abuses on the individual as sharia law – though obviously not the same ones.

Limited hypocritical traction, if any, there.

Iran flouting it’s committments under non-proliferation treaty? Possibly. No more serious than the US going to war in Iraq after UN told them it was illegal. UN anything is fraught with hypocrisy.

Limited traction there.

Wipe a UN member state off the map? You make a connection between nuclear power and nuclear weapons with that one and suggest Iran wants to bomb Israel. You’re not listening to what Ahmadinejad has said. He said he wants Israel gone – that they should go back to Europe where they came from if necessary. He is a very smart man, even if you don’t like what he says. And there’s no way he would nuke Israel, it would be suicide for Iran. He can sit back and attack them via Hamas and other terrorist groups quite easily enough. He knows about the guilt of the West in forming Israel in the Middle east and he uses it against them – that’s why they walked out. He challenges their self image sacred cows and laughs at western diplomacy. He’s effective in his methods in that sense, and very dangerous, and so far too much for most of the West’s intellegensia to out-think without resorting to wailing over liberal poltical constructs like homophobia, bigotry and racism. These things are ineffectual against a man and a regime that does not recognise them.
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April 21, 2009 9:16am
Murray

Homophobia isn;t but being gay will get you executed in a few.
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April 21, 2009 9:19am
Andrew W

If a state were established exclusively for white people (and this was recently suggested by some clowns in Christchurch) it would be seen as racism (as indeed it was in Chch).

So if extremist Zionists were to argue for the establishment of a Jewish state with the exclusion of non Jewish people I’ll argue that, if Judaism were an ethnicity as well as being a religion, such extreme Zionism would be a form of racism.

It’s a fact that many Jewish people do see Judaism as an ethnicity as well as a religion, and DNA research has found that Jews have, to a greater extent than any other group that has co-existed with other populations for thousands of years, failed to intermarry.

So to me Ahmadinejad’s argument that Zionism is a form of racism comes down to whether or not non Jewish immigrants to Israel have the same legal rights as Jews, it appears from this that they don’t:

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/0/4/1/9/p104190_index.html

Let the negative karma roll.
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April 21, 2009 9:21am
KiwiGreg

goodgod – “Liberal democracy is a failure”

Really? No wonder so many from the west are trying to escape to Iran and other enlightened regimes. So many lives tragically lost as Americans get into tyres to try and enter Cuba.
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April 21, 2009 9:28am
goodgod

Kiwigreg, It’s a failure in so much as it cannot attain it’s own goals without creating a larger mess. I did not suggest it was worse than any other system. The point was to highlight the hypocrisy of the statement. Andrew W, in his post, gets it.
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April 21, 2009 9:34am
senzafine

Muzza. I came from Wainui and even chose to move back there for a while once upon a time.

I find the whole thing rather humourous, to be blunt. 🙂

Also having known some of Karl Kuchenbecker’s family in the past, I find it distasteful that you bring him and his family into the discussion to make an emotive plea on behalf of the people of Wainui.

Shame on you!
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April 21, 2009 9:37am
davidp

AndrewW>So to me Ahmadinejad’s argument that Zionism is a form of racism comes down to whether or not non Jewish immigrants to Israel have the same legal rights as Jews, it appears from this that they don’t

Then why doesn’t Ahmadinejad argue that Islam is a form of racism, due to Filipino and Indian immigrants not having many rights at all in Saudi Arabia or any of the Gulf states? Immigrants to Israel have many more rights than immigrants to any Arab countries, or to Iran for that matter. And yet you and Ahmadinejad single Israel out for criticism.

Israel was formed on the bits of the Middle East that had a Jewish majority, after their Arab neighbours tried their hand at ethnic cleaning and teamed up with Nazi Germany. It isn’t surprising that Jews didn’t feel safe living among ethnic cleansers. Despite that, there have always been large numbers of non-Jewish Israelis, and they have full rights to vote and access to parliament and the legal system. More rights then they have in any Arab country. So why, of all countries, do you pick Israel as your target for criticism as being racist?
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April 21, 2009 9:42am
LC

Sorry been out of touch for a while, can someone update me on what been hapenning on the economic recovery front – jobs been created by Govt, Govt spending initiatives that are in place etc. Just a readers digest summary will do. Thanks.
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April 21, 2009 9:48am
libertyscott

goodgod: Homosexuals get imprisoned and executed in Iran, so actually it IS a crime in Iran. Ahmadinejad is President of a murderous regime that aids and abets terrorism, and executes minors. It is despicably evil.

“Liberal democracy is as failure. It’s held together with rubberbands, spittle and hot air. It comitts as many abuses on the individual as sharia law – though obviously not the same ones.” well yes hot air maybe, it does NOT commit as many abuses on the individual as sharia law. You seen rape victims get punished by the state in the western world? You have less freedoms in NZ than in Iran? What vapid nonsense. Similarly is the rhetoric he uses over Israel, he supports attacks on it, and he denies the holocaust like the intellectual midget he is (seen also in his economic policy which is an abject failure)

Of course he doesn’t recognise western concepts – he is evil. It is like expecting morality from Kim Jong Il or Stalin or the like.

This whole exercise is a farce, and it is good NZ boycotted it – there is much racism in the world – but it has become a platform for some of the most despicable regimes in the world to sound off against Israel.
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April 21, 2009 9:51am
Patrick Starr

The Standard wouldn’t survive long in Sth Korea

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10567664
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April 21, 2009 9:59am
goodgod

So why, of all countries, do you pick Israel as your target for criticism as being racist?

He didn’t, he was examining the logic behind the ideas of Ahmadinejad.

If someone examines an idea, it does not mean they support it. In the war of wrods between the West and Islam, the side that cannot examine ideas will lose and will have to rely on hysterical ineffectual slogans as a defence. It’s not personal, don’t make it so.
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April 21, 2009 10:00am
Andrew W

I’m not disputing that Ahmadinejad’s being hypocritical.
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April 21, 2009 10:02am
libertyscott

Why indeed pick on Israel when Sudan has seen the wholesale government backed slaughter of non-Muslim Africans by Muslim Arabs – that is racism and genocide on the door step of the Muslim world.

However, they don’t give a damn.

The hard truth is that most of the developing world and the former Soviet Union is very racist, very xenophobic. Only Western Europe, North America, Aus/NZ and South Africa have really had to confront racism – the rest of the world never has had to. Any experience in the developing world demonstrates how racist most people are, and how the institutions of the state in most countries are xenophobic.
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April 21, 2009 10:04am
goodgod

goodgod: Homosexuals get imprisoned and executed in Iran, so actually it IS a crime in Iran.

homphobia is not crime in Iran or anywhere else, what are you talking about now? You’re still not geting it. I’ve watched Ahmadinejad in interviews smiling his happy little smile and openly asking the interviewer why he is asking him questions about things he does not believe in. He doesn’t care about liberal politics, it’s as foriegn to him as those who call religion a fairytale. Why ask the muslim why he is such a bad christian?
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April 21, 2009 10:07am
libertyscott

goodgod: So? The evil little bully doesn’t understand individual rights. What are you proposing to do? Ignore him, encourage him, listen to him, encourage his overthrow?
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April 21, 2009 10:09am
big bruv

There is some good news today people, the racist Maori rugby team’s game against the Boks has been cancelled.

Thank god for that.
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April 21, 2009 10:25am
Brian Smaller

big bruv – it is not a New Zealand Representative team. It is a NZ Maori representative team. How many times does it have to be said. THere are gay rugby teams, women’s rugby teams, Catholic teams, Samoan teams, club teams. The All-Blacks and Black Ferns are the two male/female NZ senior representative teams and any one of any stripe can play for them if they make the grade and are of the approriate sex for the appropriate team.
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April 21, 2009 10:53am
MT_Tinman

Great news indeed BB.

Good to see that at our South African friends recognise a blatantly racist outfit when they see one.
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April 21, 2009 11:05am
big bruv

Brian

“it is not a New Zealand Representative team”

Then why is it funded and administered by the NZRU?

It is a national team Brian and as such it is racist.
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April 21, 2009 11:08am
KiwiGreg

“homphobia is not crime in Iran or anywhere else”

I confess I dont have the same intimate knowledge of every country on the planet’s legal systems but in fact “hate” crimes against gays, for instance, carry at least higher penalties in some civilised countries.

I’m marking you down as a troll though, so my last contribution to this. If you really believe any of this please fuck off to Iran.
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April 21, 2009 11:20am
oob

davidp wrote: Israel was formed on the bits of the Middle East that had a Jewish majority, after their Arab neighbours tried their hand at ethnic cleaning and teamed up with Nazi Germany.

Bullshit.

The population of Palestine was 99% Arab as late as 1930, according to British census data.
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April 21, 2009 11:23am
Ryan Sproull

Oob is correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine#Demographics.2C_1920

More like 90% Arab. Certainly not “the bits of the Middle East that had a Jewish majority”. The majority of Jewish Israelis immigrated from Europe.
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April 21, 2009 11:41am
davidp

oob>The population of Palestine was 99% Arab as late as 1930, according to British census data.

According to Wikipedia, the area was about one third Jewish in 1945, including areas with an overwhelming Jewish majority. Those areas wanted to form their own state, as is their right. Similar to the right of Kosovans to form their own state apart from Serbia after Serbs tried to ethnically cleanse them. Or the right of Irish to form their own state in the parts of Great Britain that had an Irish majority in 1922.

Which leads to an interesting alternative-universe question. If the British had refused to recognise Irish independence in 1922, and spent the last 80-something years shooting rockets at Ireland, suicide bombing Irish buses, and threatening the destruction of Ireland, then would moonbats blame the Irish? Would people condemn Ireland when, every so often, it tried to stop the rockets landing in Irish cities? Would the UN organise a conference for English-speaking countries to beat up on Ireland and describe it as a racist country and Catholicism as a racist religion?
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April 21, 2009 11:43am
bearhunter

“Or the right of Irish to form their own state in the parts of Great Britain that had an Irish majority in 1922.

Which leads to an interesting alternative-universe question. If the British had refused to recognise Irish independence in 1922, and spent the last 80-something years shooting rockets at Ireland, suicide bombing Irish buses, and threatening the destruction of Ireland, then would moonbats blame the Irish? Would people condemn Ireland when, every so often, it tried to stop the rockets landing in Irish cities? Would the UN organise a conference for English-speaking countries to beat up on Ireland and describe it as a racist country and Catholicism as a racist religion?”

Oh Christ, I hear the sound of a large can of worms being opened.
One point, though: no parts of Great Britain have ever had an Irish majority (except possibly Kilburn/Cricklewood at times in the 50s). Ireland has never been part of Great Britain, which describes the geographical landmass containing England, Wales and Scotland.
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April 21, 2009 12:08pm
Ryan Sproull

Oh Christ, I hear the sound of a large can of worms being opened.

That’s just Tame Iti’s ears twitching.
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April 21, 2009 12:10pm
racer

Well I’m back, hope you all missed me lots.

Anyway, the only thing really needing comment while I was gone was the post a few weeks back about how a Jewish person has been put in charge of investigating weather Israel committed war crimes against Palestine. At the time DPF said this means he probably wont be an anti-Semite. but don’t we have to wait for his report before we can decide weather he is antisemitic or not?
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April 21, 2009 12:23pm
davidp

BearHunter>Ireland has never been part of Great Britain

I’m too lazy to look up what their exact status was, but change “Great Britain” to “British Empire” or something if it is legally more accurate.

But the principle is clear… If a group of people want to form their own country, then they have the right to do so. NZ from the British Empire. Ireland from the British Empire. Bosnia, Croatia, and Kosovo from Yugoslavia or Serbia. Texas from Mexico. Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and about twenty other countries from the Soviet Union. East Timor from Indonesia. And Israel from the rest of the British Mandate. I can’t see why you’d oppose this unless you’re the sort of person who likes the idea of an empire. But I do understand exactly why Israel is the only country singled out for criticism for having wanted independence from its neighbours.
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April 21, 2009 12:23pm
Andrew W

davidp: “Those areas wanted to form their own state, as is their right. Similar to the right of Kosovans to form their own state apart from Serbia after Serbs tried to ethnically cleanse them. Or the right of Irish to form their own state in the parts of Great Britain that had an Irish majority in 1922.”

Is your support for that principle universal? You’d support an independent Maori state if that were the wish of most
Maori?
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April 21, 2009 1:36pm
bearhunter

Andrew, the idea of a Maori independent state is something of a chimera, as there are not enough Maori to represent a majority of the people in NZ, so unless they persuaded a vast chunk of Pakeha NZers to agree with them, it would never happen. By contrast, the Irish general election of 1918 provided Sinn Fein with a mandate after they won some 70 per cent of the seats contested.

Davidp: It was the United Kingdom Ireland left, but that’s nitpicking. Sorry. And I would be as far from opposing its secession from the UK as it is possible to be 🙂
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April 21, 2009 1:59pm
davidp

AndrewW> Is your support for that principle universal? You’d support an independent Maori state if that were the wish of most
Maori?

Depends what you mean by “Maori state”? If all Maori in NZ were considered to belong to a different state than their non-Maori neighbours, then it hasn’t been tried anywhere and I can’t imagine how it would work. But if, say, Maori in the Ureweras or similar had a vote and won a majority to set up a state, then they have the right to do so. Good luck to them.

And I’ll qualify that by saying there has to be some minimum quantity of people or territory for a state to be viable. My apartment isn’t ever going to be a state, regardless of how I vote. Countries like Gibraltar and Monaco get along fine. But the Vatican is a bit artificial, IMHO, with Italian police exercising delegated sovereignty in some circumstances.
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April 21, 2009 2:42pm
Ryan Sproull

David,

How many people have to want to be a separate state for it to be their right to do so?
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April 21, 2009 2:43pm
davidp

Bearhunter>It was the United Kingdom Ireland left, but that’s nitpicking. Sorry. And I would be as far from opposing its secession from the UK as it is possible to be.

That’s the trouble with a country, the UK, that has so many names… formal and informal but in every day use.

I suspect it is only a matter of time before Scotland secedes and it’ll make a fine independent country. But it’ll be a decision for Scots alone… English have no more right to veto the independence of the Scottish-majority bits of the UK than Arabs do over the Jewish-majority bits of the Middle East. Interestingly, the Conservatives oppose Scottish independence because they believe in a united UK. And Labour oppose it because without the huge Labour-Conservative imbalance in Scottish and Welsh seats, they’d be consigned to opposition in Westminster forever.
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April 21, 2009 2:49pm
davidp

Ryan> How many people have to want to be a separate state for it to be their right to do so?

Not something I’ve thought hard about… Ignoring the Vatican, all the very small ones are islands or groups of islands that confer some geographical separation from neighbours. Monaco, San Marino, and Gibraltar share land borders with other countries and all have about 30,000 people. That feels like a reasonable limit.
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April 21, 2009 3:04pm
Ryan Sproull

What informs that limit and makes it reasonable?
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April 21, 2009 3:09pm
big bruv

davidp

“I suspect it is only a matter of time before Scotland secedes and it’ll make a fine independent country.”

While it is indeed a “matter of time” that “time” is decades and decades away (if at all)

Support for an independent Scotland is patchy at best, the vast majority of Jocks are not that bothered, as usual the vocal SNP are the ones that the media go to for comment on Scottish independence when the average man in the street is not overly concerned.

Asking the SNP for comment about an independent Scotland is like asking John (Hone) Harawira for comment on Maori independence and then talking Hone’s words as being representative of all Maori.
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April 21, 2009 3:27pm
Poliwatch

It seems that this has just been announced.

“Labour MP Phil Twyford announced today he will not be seeking the nomination for the Mt Albert by-election.

Twyford said he believed the by-election was an ideal opportunity to bring more fresh talent into Parliament, building on Labour’s 2008 intake.”

Looks like they are running scared. Courtesy of The Standard.
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April 21, 2009 4:35pm
Jack5

New topic for a moment if I may …

The New Zealand Geographic Board is looking at the (English and Maori) names of the South Island and North Island…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2351676/Island-names-not-official/

Shouldn’t such an important topic be the field of Parliament rather than some obscure government board led by a civil servant, and with membership ethnically unbalanced (in favour of Maori) and perhaps dominated by Labour appointees?

If not, does Key have the grit to reshape the board, or better still, abolish it?
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April 21, 2009 4:56pm
Jack5

Further on NZ names and the Geographic Board…

Could is possibly be that the Geographic Board’s sudden energy on this contentious topic is a politically motivated effort to stir up feelings of both Maori and whites and thus cause trouble for the National-Maori Party alliance?

If not, what is the reason for the haste by bringing in more emotive issues so hot on the heels of the W(h)anganui debate?
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April 21, 2009 5:11pm
joeAverage

I see the brave MAORI process worker ie pitbull owner dog killing DOG STEALER did a Te Raparaha (whatever) the damn haka , I STEAL I STEAL I LIVE I LIVE this scared fucker sneaked out of court in womens clothing , his fat bitch giving gang signs laughing at the cameras wearing his clothes , boy she was a fat manly dike looking maori , well this stunch dog fighter hangs out in girls clothing but the fuckers name and job is public knowledge , as i said they are not the sharpest knifes in MAORIDOM ,soon to go inside, with all his bros .
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April 21, 2009 6:26pm
Andrew W

He may be a gutless coward joe, but why do you need to include the racist and sexist attacks on lots of other people?
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April 21, 2009 7:15pm
joeAverage

Its a ongoing problem AW , say on thursday or friday the maori party says its a kick in the head to maoris for not been given seats for nothing in the so called super city and on saturday night in taupo on a street corner at night a maori kicks the shit out of someones head, reported on newstalkzb THE TRUTH, reverse situation the honky gets the kick in the head. Im noticing a problem with maori and pacifica, (its always after something bad ) police are looking for a maori or islander or a dark person, racist to you dogooders FACTs to me , dont worry david will demerite out of your closet lifes soon , but the shits getting worse think when someones raped, listern who the police are looking for, but if you say the truth too forcefully Mr F demerites sigh
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April 21, 2009 8:53pm
reid

Joe, if you’re average then our society’s screwed, mate.
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April 21, 2009 8:58pm
philu

that’s cos’ joe is a racist/sexist..

..it’s simple..

..really..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 21, 2009 10:51pm
Andrew W

Joe, the way I see it we’re all individuals, if some white guy commits some crime that’s his responsibility, me being another white guy doesn’t make his actions in any way my fault. You believe in some sort of collective responsibility? A bit like communists?
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April 21, 2009 10:52pm

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Health Target 5 – elective treatments
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