General Debate 15 April 2009

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barry

I felt sorry for the witch hunt for the woman who is claimed to have not helped the teenager who was raped in Auckland.

When I heard this I thought that (as a male) if I were there and had said to the girl “hope and Ill take you home” then I feel sure that the first thing the police would have done was charge me with kidnapping!. There would have been no crime by anyone else (as the rape wodnt have happened) and the plice would have made sure their policy of “no one but else shall act as police except us” – and they will come down hard on anybody who shows them up.
And the other unknown was that as a 13 year old god knows what story she may have come up with if she had gotten into some ones car.

I would have done the same as the woman – tell the girl to keep away from the guy and then drive off.

[DPF: Never in a million years would I abandon someone seeking assistance – unless there was direct danger to me. The person could have called the Police, stayed there until assistance came, called her parents etc]
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April 15, 2009 10:04am
MyNameIsJack

barry, I find your attitude so typical of the right – fuck community, fuck society, fuck helping anyone, just look out for your own selfish interests.

If I found myself in a similar situation, I would do whatever I could to help, up to, and including, confronting the loser following the girl.

i guess that’s the difference between you lot and us socialists – we actually care about people.
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April 15, 2009 10:12am
big bruv

Jack

You are full of shit, if there is one lesson from the past nine years it is that socialists do not give a toss about anybody who is not part of their immediate group or part of their revolution.

Nine years of Labour has not improved the lot of the so called poor one little bit, nine years of Labour has not seen a drop off in violent crime nor has it seen a drop off in youth crime.

The only “help” socialists are interested in is helping themselves to other peoples money so they can use that money to buy votes, very little (if any) of the money they stole from me and other tax payers actually did any good.
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April 15, 2009 10:27am
Banana Llama

Don’t be a dick head Jack, he is saying it has gotten to the point that you will be charged by the police no matter what you do, who knows, he might even resist arrest and be shot dead for his troubles. This has happened under the left wings watch, good honest citizens sticking up for what is right are being brow beaten and hammered into submission, Just so the state can say they are the only ones “legally” allowed to take action.

I would larf my ass off when you helped that girl only to find yourself, the very next day, being charged with kidnapping a minor by a bunch of withered, grey haired harridans.
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April 15, 2009 10:37am
MyNameIsJack

Well, looks like big bruv and bainimarama lame prove my point – neither of them would profer help, either.

banana, got any proof? No, just full of shit and cowardice.

Good to see DPF prepared to be a citizen.
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April 15, 2009 10:45am
PhilBest

DPF, I am completely unable to get onto the adjacent thread concerning Matt Nolan’s condemnation of Philip O’Connor’s analysis of house prices and interest rates.

I note that no-one else has made a comment so perhaps everyone has the same problem.

I have just followed the link to Matt Nolan’s thread and made the following comment:

PhilBest says:

This was very thoroughly aired on interest.co.nz:

http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2009/04/02/opinion-why-lower-interest-rates-wont-lead-to-higher-house-prices/

At the end of the thread, Philip O’Connor makes a very interesting statement of where he stands, considering that I suggested near the start of the thread that he was being mischievous. The point he was trying to make, was the “correlation” between LOW interest rates and HIGH house prices, which is pretty much “received wisdom”, is actually completely invalid.

I am very sorry that his subtlety has been completely missed because he has an extremely valid point, which supports the argument that Hugh Pavletich and others including myself have been making for years. I have made a fuller development of the argument of what is really responsible for the recent severe house price bubbles, on THIS “thread”:

http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2009/04/09/housing-special-why-the-march-housing-market-surge-is-an-indian-summer/#comments

(And no, I am not Philip O’Connor and have never known the guy).
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April 15, 2009 10:54am
redeye

To help or not to help? How can that be a left v right debate?

There were plenty of ways that woman could have helped without “hope(sic) and Ill take you home” . Telling her to keep away from him and buggering off wasn’t one of them.
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April 15, 2009 11:00am
Banana Llama

How the hell do you know what i would do in that situation, you don’t, the only sack full of cowardly shit i see here is you, one with a crystal ball at that.
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April 15, 2009 11:10am
goodgod

If you were a random woman approached by a random unhinged girl asking for help in Auckland, I’d recommend that you get clear. That’s just the facts of city life.

The woman was there, she made the call and made the right one for her. No one knew what would happen next. There was no way of knowing the veracity of what the girl said or if she was on drugs or mentally ill. Even the police adhere to the rule of their own safety first. Once again, the luxury of hindsight is distorting reality and context. We cannot hold an average Jane to higher standards than skilled trained emergency services. Had the girl been a junkie and robbed the woman or stabbed her with a needle, or any other weird imaginary scenario that is becoming the norm these days, this discussion would be very different.

No one knows for sure what they will do until the bullets start flying. Sometimes the big-talkers become cowards, sometimes the shy become lions – that’s the beauty of real life.
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April 15, 2009 11:11am
Pat

Slater claims to have Labour’s UMR polling results in Mt Albert, which show 41% Nat to 40% Labour out of a poll of 400. Maybe DPF can confirm this?

A National victory would deal a fatal blow to Goff, but also to the credibility of the next leader-in-waiting (apparently) – Andrew Little.
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April 15, 2009 11:18am
Trevor Mallard

I agree with David. I would probably have invited the girl to get into my car – prob not the best option – Davids are better – but I think how we deal with these sort of choices is an indication of the direction we want society to head in. Don’t think it is a right left thing but we all do face this sort of choice at sometime in our lives.
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April 15, 2009 11:27am
slightlyrighty

The obvious move in this instance would have been to say to the girl, “stay with me while I call the police”. Then get out of the car and wait with her, in public view.

It ain’t rocket science people.
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April 15, 2009 11:42am
redeye

Hey Banana, how do you know I’ve never been in that situation?
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April 15, 2009 12:05pm
lofty

Thats it slightlyrighty, but you see whats happened here don’t you, this poor woman is a victim of the dumbing down of society, that has been going on for at 10 years, and is no longer able, or is too afraid to think for herself in a logical manner.
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April 15, 2009 12:38pm
lofty

What with the number of criminal loonies on the street, she was probably overtaken with irrational fear, also a product of the previous govt.
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April 15, 2009 12:41pm
Owen McShane

The conventional wisdom is that the low interest rates in the US helped fuel the excess borrowing in those markets.

But in my report to the Reserve Bank in 1996 that in NZ, a long term inflation in house pricing would led to excess borrowing which would be inflationary and our Reserve Bank would have to increase interest rates to try to dampen the market and this would lead to an overvalued dollar.

So the different behaviour in NZ and the US is part of the evidence that inflated land prices caused by restraints on supply, and excessive compliance and holding costs have been the main driver of the real estate bubble.

But people would much rather attack the bankers than their own behaviour which still cheers on people who stop every housing development they can.
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April 15, 2009 12:59pm
Ross Miller

Fascinating that the posts are focusing on the women and her actions (or lack of depending on how you see it) and ignor the low life who did this.

I notice he needs an interpreter. Gueez, how has he managed to live (and work!!!!) since coming to NZ. Is he an illegal?

And he wants bail. Now we get to see whether the judiciary understands the soft touch approach that characterised the granting of bail under Labour has been put to the sword.

But there will be those out there who will make a meal out of ‘his’ rights. Come in Mr Williams.
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April 15, 2009 2:34pm
Patrick Starr

You make a good point Ross
“I notice he needs an interpreter. Gueez, how has he managed to live (and work!!!!) since coming to NZ”

Trevor Mallard – maybe you would care to explain Labours immigration policy over the past 9 years, or was this another NZ residency application in Liu?????
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April 15, 2009 3:55pm
joeAverage

Tonights rant , the brave maori bro who set two mongels on to someones 14 yo pet to KILL it in public.These(STAFFIE crossbreeds )there is NO american pitbull dogs in the world (there is NO standard) only fuckwit lowlife bros own these child killing mongrels, NZKC have ALL the standards , well as everyone knows these dumb maori fuckers tried to get their small penis extentions (their child killing mongrels) to rip a old 14 yo dog to death in public(he put up a good fight against the chicken mob getting a bite in Then the BRAVE?????BRO tried TO RIP THE OLD BOYS CHEST APART (A HAKA WAS CALLED FOR THIS ACT OF BRAVERY ) BRO WANKERS .These maori (NOT THE SHARPEST KNIFES IN THE MAORI PARTY) list should know there are a LARGE group of QCs and top lawers who work for the SPCA for free so these bros could go back inside soon to that great marae PRISON, home for LOTS of raping bashing,kid killing baby killing and killing elderly old dogs friends.
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April 15, 2009 4:52pm
lofty

Patrick, you must be dreaming if you think the bully boy is going to answer any question put to him on this blog, you might catch him out Patrick, we can’t have that can we!
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April 15, 2009 4:54pm
lofty

Hear hear joeaverage
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April 15, 2009 4:55pm
joeAverage

PS I CALL A SPADE A SPADE if you are shit and act like it YOU ARE SHIT, so dont feel hurt ,shit
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April 15, 2009 5:52pm
joeAverage

ps pushed the send button too early ,was thinking of the $100000000000(billion i think) BLUDGERS wish list from the maori party with No audit needed, its smells like shit , give us a billion , we will still rape bash and kill you and our kids but hell we will all make money out of YOUR taxes and feel better for your money,honkeys,
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April 15, 2009 7:02pm
big bruv

Last night there was an item on the news about an elderly dog that was stolen and used as bait for two pitt bulls, nothing has enraged me as much as that story for a very long time.

I was heartened to see that the dog survived and has been returned to its owner, apparently two businessmen have stumped up a total of $20,000 as a reward for the arrest and prosecution of the low life scum who committed this crime.

When I hear stories like this my faith is partly restored in human nature, I would love to know who these two anonymous businessmen are as I would go out of my way to purchase something from them or use their professional services.

Whoever they are I thank you on behalf of all animal lovers.
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April 15, 2009 7:10pm
big bruv

Where is the fucking edit feature?…. grrrrrrrrrrr
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April 15, 2009 7:11pm
PhilBest

Owen, you are onto it as usual. Here is what I have further commented to Matt Nolan a few hours ago:

What Philip O’Connor says, far too late, at the end of the thread on interest.co.nz, is THIS:

“…Saying “higher interest rates caused high house prices,” is wrong, of course. But why do I read in the press, and hear so much, that “lower interest rates will HELP house prices”? This statement implies causality, and appears to be accepted by *everyone*. I challenge that statement in this blog. Believers in “lower interest rates support house prices” DO NOT EVEN HAVE CORRELATION ON THEIR SIDE! Their mistake is far far more serious than “correlation does not imply causality”: they believe in a relationship that is complete fantasy and does not exist in the real world…..”

I think he is right, and I think that in that comment, he has contributed a valuable part of the jigsaw puzzle that is property price bubble analysis. What do you think of the analyses I link to in my later argument, that eliminate all other causes except land rationing? I think that most analysts are looking in the wrong place, like the guy in the joke who was looking for the wallet he had dropped, only he was looking for it where the light was better than in the place he actually dropped it.

I agree 100% with your “expectation formation” conclusion. But I defy you to find that “expectation formation” regarding house prices, occurring anywhere other than where there are conditions of land use rationing.

One of the problems analysing what the historical literature calls “housing bubbles”, is that the term is also used for “supply” manias, where too many houses got built.

I am arguing that property PRICE bubbles, with home affordability deteriorating and prices increasing way out of proportion to incomes, have developed subsequent on “Green” land use restrictions.

“Bubbles” where house building occurred at too high a rate, had a positive effect on affordability. Hugh uses the term “building boom”, to describe this. These “booms” contain their own safety valve; the economic fallout from them will always be limited to the comparatively small (percentagewise) “malinvestment” in building too many houses.

But the price bubbles that are a result of land rationing are a different beast altogether. They feed their own mania, and will only blow up when a range of economic factors have played out, by which time the whole economy is nearly destroyed. We can have years of declining productivity and declining real incomes (when the cashing out of property value increases is removed) along with property prices ramping up year after year?

I gather from Steve Keen’s recent analysis of the Australian situation, that they have actually had both a boom and a bubble; driven by greed-crazed speculators who bought up overpriced new houses. We have the absurd situation that existing home owners use the increasing value of their own homes, as security to buy more overpriced homes. What eventually happens to first home buyers in this situation? Can anyone say “Ponzi”? The result will be interesting as it unwinds.

The same situation possibly applied in some of the other parts of the world such as Ireland and Spain where “enough” new homes have been built but prices remained severely unaffordable. This is an absurd defiance of all laws of supply and demand. Clearly there is serious interference occurring with the “supply” mechanism.

The case is clear that only a completely free supply of land would prevent such a situation from starting in the first place.

I would argue that to periodically have an oversupply of housing, with low prices as a result, is of substantial net benefit to society and the economy. No “planners” are going to get it right; and avoiding PRICE bubbles is clearly of all importance to our economic future.

We avoided them up till the last decade or so, simply because we were not sucked in by Green conservation mania and “local community” “empowerment” policies, and we constantly had new homes being supplied on land at affordable prices.

I would further argue that the inhabitants of particularly desirable areas should NOT be “entitled” to prevent further in-migration to their area through policies that make property unaffordable.

This is just as basically anti-human as the “Green” conservation policies are. It says in effect, that if these policies are the only right ones, that not only are humans not wanted here, they are not wanted anywhere. I am not joking or exaggerating. Sanctimonious Californians condemn Texas for its policies of cheap housing, growth, and high energy living (due to the heat and aridness).

If these sanctimonious and anti-human (essentially fascist) policies were in the trashcan of history where they belonged, California would be a lot more populated and the people living there would have smaller environmental footprints than if they were forced to live somewhere unpleasant like Texas. As usual, the sanctimonious policies have the exact opposite consequences than what they are alleged to be in the purpose of in the first place.

Greed and selfishness are clearly seriously destructive of humanity whether they occur on Wall Street or in green and pleasant neighborhoods.

New Zealand could, and should, have ten times the population it does have.
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April 15, 2009 8:12pm
PhilBest

“….If these sanctimonious and anti-human (essentially fascist) policies were in the trashcan of history where they belonged, California would be a lot more populated and the people living there would have smaller environmental footprints than if they were forced to live somewhere unpleasant like Texas…..”

And I should have added; we wouldn’t have financial meltdowns resulting from housing bubbles.
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April 15, 2009 8:13pm
Jack5

Bullshit of the day… what happens when a reporter interviews his/her keyboard…

The NZ Herald web site has an interesting story from the Bay of Plenty Times about an American whose leg was saved by a manuka honey dressing visiting the Comvita plant at Te Puke. Comvita is the big player in manuka honey.
The story is at http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10566663

Note it says: “The healing properties of the honey have long been known by Maori, but now the product is increasingly in use in hospitals around New Zealand and overseas.”

This is a blatant lie. Native bees do not hive and manuka honey did not exist until white settlers brought bees to New Zealand. It was settler farmers who first noticed the properties of manuka honey and from them that scientists got on to the scent of its properties. Beefarming was never a traditional Maori occupation. Even now a typical manuka honey harvesting operation may entail beekeepers paying Maori royalties to put their hives on Maori-owned manuka land.

Manuka honey is NOT a traditional Maori recipe. Maori may very well have some most useful traditional remedies, but manuka honey is not one of them. It’s a pakeha folk remedy developed by Western science into a medical product.
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April 15, 2009 9:30pm
Komata

Jack5

. . . But it’s in the Herald, so it MUST be right!!

As you say, native bees do not hive – they tend to be solitary and are very belligerent if provoked or approached (been there, done that – unpleasant).

But you DO realise I trust, that now that this has made the news, Sharples et al will be inevitably start claiming it for themselves – just as happened with the Kaimanawa horses (the ones left by the (European) colonial miliatry after the final defeat of Maori in the Land Wars and now deemed to be ‘taonga’ because ‘they are part of our (Maori) heritage and have been here forever’).

Nothing like manipulating facts for self-agrandisement (or to advance ‘the cause’)

It will be interesting to see how long it will take before the Maori party grab this and start trumpeting – or how long it will be before the Herald prints a correction.
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April 16, 2009 6:36am

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