General Debate 8 March 2009

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billyborker

DPF, you may be able to help with this. I have emailed my local MP, Kate Wilkinson, but had no reply.

Does the NZ Govet have a positioon on UN Resolution 62/154, “Combating Defamation of Religions”?

This is a serious threat to a) National Sovereignty, b) Freedom of speech, c)Freedom from religion and d) Human Rights.

http://www.undemocracy.com/A-RES-62-154

[DPF: I don’t know. Best bet would be to e-mail or write to Murray McCully and ask him the Govt’s position, which will force MFAT to draft something for him. I certainly hope we are against it – I’ve blogged on it a couple of times]
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March 8, 2009 9:19am
billyborker

Excellent article by Christopher Hitchens on topic

http://www.slate.com/id/2212662/?wpisrc=eDialog

Shame all NZ gets is Michael Laws and Rosemary McLeod.
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March 8, 2009 9:23am
expat

And in other news, Nick Smith to fire Labour union lickspittles from the board of ACC.
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March 8, 2009 9:23am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Good to see Nick Smith getting suck into the ACC with the big broom.
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March 8, 2009 9:39am
greenfly

Is Collins still crushing Matthews? She’s doing it very quietly.
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March 8, 2009 9:40am
expat

Apparently Greenfly. Good things come to those who wait.

—————-

Damn those Chileans do some good wine.
Santa Rita 2006 Cab Sav – not bad.

I also spotted this article today, it seems NZ Pinot Noirs are no longer totally overpriced and overhyped.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/08dd82f8-09dd-11de-add8-0000779fd2ac.html
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March 8, 2009 9:49am
Doug

Greenfly
Just read the news paper and you will find out. Sad when paper is made from trees and you refuse to read.
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March 8, 2009 9:50am
Nookin

Collins doesnt need to crush Matthews. The State Services Commissioner is (has) decided whether he has done it to himself and we will probably know this week. Collins has to wait due process. All Collins did was to decline an assurance of full confidence. How could she do that with a corrections track record of repeated disasters and an investigation underway.
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March 8, 2009 9:53am
greenfly

expat and doug – I am waiting, patiently, but despite the bluster and billiousness from “I’m on the telly’ Collins, there seems to be nothing much going down. A much husher Collins. Maybe Nick Smith “getting suck into the ACC” (thanks will OECD! Will he ever get out again? Poor Nick!) will be enough for the moment.
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March 8, 2009 9:58am
greenfly

Noonkin said:” All Collins did was to decline an assurance of full confidence.”
All! That’s all you saw her do? Nice selective ‘seeing’ Noonkin!
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March 8, 2009 10:00am
Doug

Here is a challenge Greenfly. What would you do if you were in her position?
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March 8, 2009 10:12am
big bruv

“but despite the bluster and billiousness from “I’m on the telly’ Collins”

Ha ha ha, this from a man whose own party includes mad Cath Delahunty.
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March 8, 2009 10:18am
big bruv

Doug

Don’t expect Greenfly to answer a question!

Greens don’t have answers, they only have uncosted dreams and idealogical impossibilities dressed up as policy.

Mind you, if you want somebody to criticise then they are champions at that, just don’t ask them for an alternative……..they simply don’t have any.
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March 8, 2009 10:21am
greenfly

Doug – I’d taihoa on the ‘Crusher’ crap, stop pandering to the rabid reactionaries with irresponsible emotive threats, veiled and otherwise, and get on with my job. Don’t worry though, that message has already been delivered to ‘Husher’ Collins by her bosses, evidenced by her new, improved ‘low volume’ approach. And that, Doug, is what I would do.
Big Bruv – you are recycling your same old clarion call. I always answer the question. Murray knows that and that’s why he did a runner recently. He needen’t be frightened of me and neither should you Bruv. I’m only an insect.
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March 8, 2009 10:36am
Doug

Greenfly that is silly you would open yourself up to massive employment claims, but don’t worry is it only Tax-payer money. The Left have no problem spending other peoples money
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March 8, 2009 10:48am
Ross Miller

Greenfly … I have the horrible feeling that the SSC, in the great tradition of protecting their own, will produce a whitewash report and leave Collins very little room to move in the short term at least.

But they overlook the fact that Collins does have other options foreshadowed in National’s Manifesto and I expect that we will soon see an announcement concerning private sector involvement in prison management.

The Correrctions Department have had their chance and have blown it big time.

So, even if the SCC manages to dig Mathews out of his hole I suspect change will occur.

p.s. One has to wonder if any move to fascilitate Cullen’s exit from Parliament might just be part of a cunning plan to assist Judith Tizard’s return … now who would benefit from that?
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March 8, 2009 10:54am
Inventory2

Does anyone agree that Arthur Allan Thomas should shut his gob about compensation for David Bain while the trial is underway?

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2009/03/thomas-should-shut-up.html
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March 8, 2009 11:00am
greenfly

Ross – I expect you are right. Collin’s ‘wham bam’ approach was ill-advised and unconstitutional. That is my point,gently expressed, amidst the cheering from the ‘crush the lefty bastards’ crew.
Loved your line ‘other options foreshadowed in National’s Manifesto’ Oh yes indeed! Foreshadowed.

[DPF: Unconstitutional? You do like big words – pity you used the wrong one]
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March 8, 2009 11:05am
Lou

Inventory, you absolutely right — talk of compensation is at this stage is just plain wrong.
I can’t remember where I read about this or first heard it, but I wish the news service who decided to pass on his comments would have had enough sense not to.
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March 8, 2009 11:17am
Nookin

You make a very good point. I saw this headline and thought it was irresponsible — not necessarily on Thomas’s part but certainly on the part of Stuff . We know that the jurors have been told not to go researching. I do not know whether they have been told that they are not allowed to look at the Internet period. If they look the Internet and see an article which suggests that an acquittal will give Bain $15,000,000, are they going to be able to exclude that from their subconscious thinking? They may well be teetering. They may be satisfied on the balance but not beyond reasonable doubt. I wonder if they will think “Well, he probably did it but I do not see enough to convict. On the other hand, if he ‘probably’ did it, why should he get $15 million. Maybe I will convict.” The irresponsibility of it all lies in the fact that Stuff knows full well that “acquittal” does not entitle anyone to compensation and has not added that rider to the article. We have just been through all that with Haig. This sort of comment stuffs it up for everyone and prejuduces the process
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March 8, 2009 11:29am
Ross Miller

Greenfly … there was no wham bam approach by Collins. Explain to me just how she was expected to express confidence in Mathews given the AG’s Report. All she did was to refer the matter to the SCC (Mathews employer) while remaining silent as to whether she had confidence in him. She could do nothing less or more.

Thats a mighty big leap of faith to opining that what she did was “unconstitutional” but I guess you Lefties know all about that … stealing elections and the like.

But I understand how Collins gets up your nose. Someone who refuses to be ground down by PC bullshit.

And off course you will oppose private sector involvement in the management of prisons. More ideological bullshit.

I repeat again. The public sector model has failed and failed misserably.
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March 8, 2009 11:35am
Nookin

“prejuduces”? I wonder where that came from?
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March 8, 2009 11:39am
Nookin

“but I wish the news service who decided to pass on his comments would have had enough sense not to.”
They went out and looked for it. I doubt if it was an umprompted remark by Thomas. More likely it was the answer to a question. May even have been taken out of context. Anything for a headline!
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March 8, 2009 11:43am
pdm

Greenfly – Collins `Wham Bam approach’ was right on the money and if Mathews had any sort of conscience he would have resigned at least a year ago. The man is an incompetent parasite who will not take his snout out of the trough.
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March 8, 2009 11:44am
big bruv

Nookin

You make a very good point, in the last 18 months I have served on three juries, each time we were instructed by the judge not to look up or “goggle” information on the accused, at the end of day one in each trial I immediately went home and did exactly what the judge ordered me not to do, it is human nature.

I can also say that in one of those trials my decision was not based solely on the evidence presented in the court room, if you went on that alone you would have knighted the accused for services to the community such was the false image his lawyer presented us with, I am aware of at least three other members of the jury who did the same and I suspect there were more.
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March 8, 2009 11:45am
philu

“..Shame all NZ gets is Michael Laws and Rosemary McLeod…”

no..whoar goes global every day..

..and always rounds up a juicy selection..

why..just today..there is:..

ponzi schemes..

noel gallagher..on ‘groove’..

smashing pumpkins sell out..

generation freeload..

jeremy clarkson..

the apocolypse…

banks..

eli lilly..corporate scumbags..

best 15 news bloopers of all time..

25 things i hate about facebook..

late night jokes of the week..

jon stewart..on/does..financial ‘experts’/’pundits’..

obama..on crisis/opportunity..

..how supermarket scanners are ripping you off..

blue chip/byers..

(and i haven’t finished yet..)

so billy borker…there is more..

it’s at http://www.whoar.co.nz/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 8, 2009 12:10pm
Paul Marsden

Inventory2 (2641) Vote: 1 0 Says:

March 8th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Does anyone agree that Arthur Allan Thomas should shut his gob about compensation for David Bain while the trial is underway?’

Why should he? Last time I looked, we had the right to free speech in NZ. Besides, you’d be pissed too if you spent 9 years of your life in prison for a crime you didn’t commit. Perhaps he’s just reminding us all how incompetent and skewed, the ‘justice system’ can be in NZ.
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March 8, 2009 12:11pm
greenfly

Ross said:
“But I understand how Collins gets up your nose. Someone who refuses to be ground down by PC bullshit”
She doesn’t (get up mine) and she’s creating her own bullshit with her populist crowing and tantruming.
Your “there was no wham bam approach by Collins”
and pdm’s “Collins `Wham Bam approach’ was right on the money ”
contrast nicely.
I’m in the middle with ” Collins wham bam approach has landed her in hot water with her masters”
Wanna bet on whether she’ll spout off like that again? I say, she never will (not allowed, you see).
Is the Boy Racer issue solved yet, by the way? How many cars have been crushed?
Headline: Crusher Collins crushed!
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March 8, 2009 12:13pm
philu

i also like ..’crusher collins folds’..

phil(whoar.co.nz
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March 8, 2009 12:18pm
greenfly

DPF: Unconstitutional? You do like big words – pity you used the wrong one

True! I meant ‘pig-headed’.
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March 8, 2009 12:25pm
Paul Marsden

big bruv (2899) Vote: 0 0 Says:

March 8th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Nookin

You make a very good point, in the last 18 months I have served on three juries, each time we were instructed by the judge not to look up or “goggle” information on the accused, at the end of day one in each trial I immediately went home and did exactly what the judge ordered me not to do, it is human nature.

BB. That’s exactly what I would do too. And if you don’t possess enough neurones to sift threw all the bullshit that’s spun in a courtroom and/or, be of such weak character to be influenced by the likes of the utterings of Thomas et al, then you shouldn’t be serving on a jury. I’d like to think most people have a sense of duty and fair play when sitting in judgement of a fellow human being. Unfortunately, they can not always rely on what they might hear or, get the full story of, in a courtroom.
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March 8, 2009 1:14pm
Komata

Does anyone know if NZ is attending the Durban II (Anti-Israel / Anti-Zionist / Anti-semitic) conference, and, if so, who we are sending as our delegate? Thanks
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March 8, 2009 1:18pm
Hagues

Philu “no..whoar goes global every day..

why..just today..there is:..

generation freeload..”

Is this where you provide a how to guide based on years of experience?
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March 8, 2009 1:19pm
philu

or..’crusher collins muffled’..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 8, 2009 1:38pm
philu

“..generation freeload..”

Is this where you provide a how to guide based on years of experience?..”

nah..!..it’s about bankers/financial advisers/rightwingers..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 8, 2009 1:40pm
Hagues

Oh you mean taxpayers – aka freeloader supporters
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March 8, 2009 2:12pm
Inventory2

Phil’s just worried about how he’s going to cope when his benefit is next up for review, and WINZ tells him he’s got to get a job – the prospect scares him -it’s a trip into the unknown 😉
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March 8, 2009 2:18pm
greenfly

Does Key hate kids? I mean, it was something I thought about when he ordered in those sugary snack bars for the school kids coming without breakfast in his early days as leader of the national Opposition, but I put that down to stupidity, but this refusal to ensure the safety of children by sheilding them from slick tobbacco advertising is appalling! Has Dunne, famous for his tobacco connections, managed to lever Key into this idiotic and reckless decision? Aren’t you same folk who lept ceiling high at the smacking legislation disgusted to hear that Key and tobacco have something going on? I am!

[DPF: Oh we hear from the great banner, who wants John Key to replace parents for every Kiwi family. God forbid that an 18 year old athletic champion may be able to buy a pie on a cold winter day – no no the Greens say that is evil and must be stopped. How dare John Key not stop that child from buying a pie. ]
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March 8, 2009 3:03pm
billyborker

good to see jonkey has got his priorities right.

Businesses suffering? let the market decide.

People losing jobs all over the country? Let them eat cake.

Business leaders getting mammoth bonuses while shareholder value is destroyed? Reinstate knighthoods for them.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10560600

[DPF: And once again a fact free post. The transitional relief package will give direct help to those who lose their jobs and are in most need. Unlike Labour’s which would have given money to a couple earning $200,000. And I know you are in your fantasy world re John Key, but he seems to be interfering in quite a few markets – such as directing the Super Fund to invest 40% at home. If you want to be taken seriously by anyone drop the rhetoric and try some actual analysis. Yes that thing based on what actually has happened, not your fantasy world[]
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March 8, 2009 3:17pm
Viking2

PM to restore titles of Knights and Dames
Last updated 15:13 08/03/2009

The titles of Dames and Knights are to be restored to the New Zealand honours system, Prime Minister John Key announced today.

In 2000 the then Labour government dropped titles from the top levels of the honours system – Knight and Dame Grand Companion (GNZM) and Knight and Dame Companion (KNZM/DNZM).

These titles will replace the appointment of Principal and Distinguished Companion of the order which were instituted in May 200

Some complained that the decision was part of the move to republicanism and others were unhappy that it made difficult for people to understand what titles had been awarded.

Mr Key said it was his pleasure to return to titles that would recognise service given to New Zealand.

“This is about celebrating success,” Mr Key said.

The 85 New Zealanders who were given honours which used to come with a title will now be given the opportunity to accept the title of Knight or Dame.

“The Queen has given approval for the reinstatement of titles. The changes will be finalised and come into effect in time for the Queen’s Birthday Honours list in June,” Mr Key said.

They will have until June 2009 to decide whether they want to accept the title.

Amongst those who can take up the knew titles are; Lloyd Geering, Ngatata Love, Eddie Durie, Peter Gluckman, Colin Meads, Stephen Tindall, Margaret Shields and Jenny Shipley.
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March 8, 2009 3:35pm
reid

Viking are you serious? That’s excellent news. Now let’s do the Privy Council as well.

Guess who will now refuse to accept a title upon her retirement from Parliament, if she had any principles, that is.
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March 8, 2009 3:46pm
billyborker

Sure thing, reid. And, while we’re at it, let’s go the whole hog and abolish parliament. After all if we need the UK for honours and law, we’re not really ready for self government, are we?
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March 8, 2009 3:56pm
greenfly

DPF: Oh we hear from the great banner, who wants John Key to replace parents for every Kiwi family. God forbid that an 18 year old athletic champion may be able to buy a pie on a cold winter day – no no the Greens say that is evil and must be stopped. How dare John Key not stop that child from buying a pie.

David! you sound like one of the worst of Kiwiblog commenters! Are you ok? You fired off a few ‘frustration rockets’ there, but they were all diversionary – what about the tobacco issue? Are you with Dunne and Key on their gutless, heartless crusade to keep cigarettes in front of children? We knew Dunne was sticky with nicotine and the rank pong of the industry, but Key?? Key says it is ‘too hard’ to change the displaying of cigarettes so that children are protected from the effects of advertising, proximity and over familiarity. Do you support them? I’d have thought you had some moral fibre on this issue. these aren’t adults we are talking about here – they’re children. (I’m not refering to Dunne and Key, but might’ve been!)
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March 8, 2009 5:05pm
Komata

FYI:

On the 0700 RNZ National news this morning, the news concening the death of Susan Changeri, wife of the Zimbabwean PM was read out, followed by a comment from NZ politicians.

Did anyone else notice that Phil Goff (Leader of the Opposition) comented first BEFORE John Key (Prime Mininster of New Zealand)?

For many years accepted Radio and TV Convention and Protocol has been that the PM speaks first, NEVER the Leader of the Opposition, but of course, how silly of me – there hasn’t been an election has there, Phil Goff is now PM and Labour are of course still the government.

It MUST be true – the MSM don’t ever lie do they?

Thought you might like to know about this – evidently reality-acceptance is difficult in the MS audio media!
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March 8, 2009 5:24pm
getstaffed

DPF – I’d like to nominate you for an award. Stepping around the intellectual dog turds deposited here by the likes of greenfly, borker et al is more than most of us could bear. Well done!
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March 8, 2009 5:41pm
greenfly

getstaffed – but what do you think about Key and Dunne’s response to the cigarettes-displayed-in-front-of-children issue? Are you going to hide behind bluster like DPF did?
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March 8, 2009 5:53pm
philu

i think the local honours should be ‘mate’..and ‘good sheila’…

as in ‘good sheila shipley’..

..um..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)

..and i see that dpf..in his ‘long game’..

..obviously wants to be called ‘sir david’..

(..snort..!..)

..republican-lite..eh..?
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March 8, 2009 5:55pm
philu

dunne has always had the nickname ‘butts’..

(seeing as he has always been in the ashtray of the tobacco companies.)

..what should we call key..?

..’smoky’..?..

..or b&h-lite’..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 8, 2009 6:00pm
big bruv

Phool

Let me try and understand what you are saying.

Am I right in suggesting that you are against Tobacco companies yet all for legalising Cannabis?
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March 8, 2009 6:31pm
PhilBest

Let me be the first to post THIS:

John Key in the WALL STREET JOURNAL:

KUDOS!!!!!!!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123638162497057661.html?mod=djemEditorialPage

“…….These days, you have to travel far to find a national leader who is talking about market-based approaches to the global recession. All the way to the other side of the world…….
[The Weekend Interview] Terry Shoffner

“We don’t tell New Zealanders we can stop the global recession, because we can’t,” says Prime Minister John Key, leaning forward in his armchair at his office in the Beehive, the executive wing of New Zealand’s parliament. “What we do tell them is we can use this time to transform the economy to make us stronger so that when the world starts growing again we can be running faster than other countries we compete with.”

That idea — growing a nation out of recession by improving productivity — puts Mr. Key and his conservative National Party at odds with Washington, Tokyo and Canberra. Those capitals are rolling out billions of dollars in stimulus packages — with taxpayers’ money — to try to prop up growth. That’s “risky,” Mr. Key says. “You’ve saddled future generations with an enormous amount of debt that then they have to repay,” he explains. “There is actually a limit to what governments can do.”…….”

WOO HOO HOO…..!!!!!!!!
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March 8, 2009 6:57pm
transmogrifier

Two quick thoughts:

– I applaud philu for sticking to his ostentatious, ugly posting style – it makes it very easy to skip when scrolling down a page.
– The fact that the Sir/Dame debate splits along party lines just reinforces the tribal shallowness of political debate in this country.
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March 8, 2009 7:08pm
getstaffed

greenfly – what I think matters little to you I’m sure.

FWIW, I model to my own children the behaviour and values that I feel are important to help them become responsible and productive members of our society. Despite this, the kind of socialist authoritarian crap espoused by you lefties (actually let’s call you nouveau communists) will probably ensure the some other country benefits from their responsible adulthood.

As for the cigarettes matter, I don’t smoke. Neither does my wife. Neither do our kids. I’m content with this.
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March 8, 2009 7:11pm
wreck1080

US free trade deal canned!!! Thanks to david lange, we will never get one with the US.

The hive of socialists in nz will be quite pleased.
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March 8, 2009 7:36pm
greenfly

getstaffed – I’m intensely interested in what you think. Are you satisfied that the positioning of cigarettes in dairies and other stores your children and their friends might buy things from (lollies perhaps) isn’t unfairly affecting their opinion of cigarettes and their place in society? Would you prefer them to be out of sight or highly visible to young children? Are you puzzled that Key turned down the opportunity to further protect children from the influence of the tobacco companies?

DPF – have you folded on this question?

[DPF: If you want to reduce smoking, then increases taxes on them. But don’t keep passing more and more regulations for shop keepers on how they arrange their stores. And frankly knowing how addicted most smokers are, I am very dubious that a ban on retail displays will do anything to reduce smoking, but will just impose costs on retailers]
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March 8, 2009 7:38pm
wikiriwhis business

“Am I right in suggesting that you are against Tobacco companies yet all for legalising Cannabis”

Exactly.

This is something I definitely can’t reconcile to.

Opotiki has made smoking in public illegal and that will spread around the country.

So how will Marijuana be made legal? How can that be justified?
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March 8, 2009 9:18pm
getstaffed

greenfly – I really don’t care. I’ve raised my kids to think for themselves using a value system as their guide. They will make infored choices regardless of displays, advertsing etc. And how a shopkeeper can/should/does displays various legal products for sale is their business. Not mine. Not yours.

Perhaps the only thing I’d stoop to legislate protection of kids’ delicate minds from is the cancerous ideology of the so-called Greens.
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March 8, 2009 9:59pm
big bruv

“If you want to reduce smoking, then increases taxes on them”

First of all no government could afford for every smoker to give the habit away, nor could the social welfare system.

They make a lot of noise about the undoubted dangers of smoking but they also need the income, if they were serious about people stopping they would simply ban them.
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March 8, 2009 10:04pm
getstaffed

Obama cans FTA; Key deeply disappointed

In a shock move the United States has halted free trade talks with New Zealand, Prime Minister John Key has confirmed.

President Barack Obama has suspended talks on what was known as the Trans Pacific Partnership.

Mr Key told reporters in Auckland that he had just learnt of the suspension.

“New Zealand is deeply disappointed that at this point the US Administration are not continuing talks in relation to a free trade agreement,” Mr Key said.

The US move was in the context of taking a “stock take” by the new US administration.

“It’s a disappointment but it needs to be put in context that it has been postponed not cancelled.”

He said free trade agreement negotiations with India and South Korea were still underway.

Interesting. I’m guessing that FTAs will become rarer (or be agreed, but then dishonoured on a case-by-case basis) as countries look to protectionism to prop up local industry
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March 8, 2009 10:15pm
PhilBest

Obama is merely acting to type as the black FDR. The paralells with the great depression are acute.

Bush is Hoover, the big government intervention man. Obama is FDR, the even bigger government intervention man.

Protectionism and beggar thy neighbour trade policies were one of the main reasons for the Great Depression being so prolonged and worsened.

I suggest that the old ANZUS/Nuke issue is no longer anything to do with this, much as I was utterly appalled by the sheer lunacy of that.
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March 8, 2009 10:30pm
wikiriwhis business

“President Barack Obama has suspended talks on what was known as the Trans Pacific Partnership.”

We probably fortunate to be snubbed

Other nations were completely swindled by FTA’s with the States.

When foreign products were impairing on local products – the domestic businesses – lobbied congress to overtax the imported products until they were taxed out of the states. Very little known about it from the time, but foreign interests never ventured into FTA’s with the states again.
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March 8, 2009 11:12pm

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Battle of Beersheba – Canadian Frustration – Balfour Declaration I THE G…
Utopia
"The paradox of 'Trump Derangement Syndrome' is that the phrase is used only by the very people who are suffering from it."
Not PC
Some sporting reflections
Point of Order
The High Court says "Land Back"
No Right Turn
Why you should reject the term “Christian nationalism”
Bob McCoskrie's McBlog
US military-industrial-sports complex.
Kiwipolitico
MILLION DOLLAR REWARD
No Punches Pulled (Bob Jones)
United Rugby Championship Predictions for Week 7
Stats Chat
The Battle for Democracy
NZCPR
Pretty (il)legal
Croaking Cassandra
Where are the food carts?
Offsetting Behaviour
Tory Whanau may have to sell Wellington mayoralty to make ends meet
The Civilian
The Accidental Engagement
Imperator Fish
Legal Beagle: Election '23: The Special Votes
Public Address
Making this movie might have been a mistake
Liam Hehir
Why I am retiring from political blogging
Kiwi FireWalker
Angie Warren-Clark: Meet the Newbies
Dan Moskovitz

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