General Debate 10 March 2009

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Paul Marsden

…”not unusual to change things around at a crime scene”. WTF?? Crown case lost right there. But more importantly, what does this statement say about the veracity of Police ‘evidence’, in all cases they prosecute? (especially controversial cases such as Scott Watson etc)
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March 10, 2009 8:18am
CraigM

…”not unusual to change things around at a crime scene”. WTF??

I agree PM. That comment blew me away. Maybe I watch too much CSI but I thought crime scenes were sacrosanct.

Almost as worrying was the casual attitude..yeah, evidence is always moved around…seriously, is that not a case loser everytime, right there? I find the assertion that crime scenes are messed with to be absolutely unbelievable.
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March 10, 2009 8:31am
dad4justice

Police change a crime scene to make a prosecution more plausible because they can without any consequences. Often the truth is totally irrelevant to the investigation.
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March 10, 2009 8:35am
philu

i see the mainstream media still haven’t found the key wall st journal story..

sheesh..!

..it’s almost getting embarrassing..

.phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 10, 2009 8:36am
big bruv

Philu

Care to answer the question I put to you last night re welfare?
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March 10, 2009 8:44am
dime

yea the cops shouldnt be able to move anything!

that way, when ya stab someone, ya just have to hide the knife behind the fridge! sweet!
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March 10, 2009 8:55am
dime

Why is it David Bain supporters talk about things being moved in the house during photography.. but dont bring up the photos of Davids injuries? ya know, the ones that suggest he had been in a fight…

oh yeah, Robin had no such injuries.. he managed to overpower his teenage son with no trouble…
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March 10, 2009 8:57am
dime

April 1st Tax Cuts….

A couple of our employees have a tax increase coming April 1st! about $10 a month. they earn between 35-40k.

didnt see that coming!

apparently its not a mistake.

anyone care to explain?

maybe a rabid leftie thats researched it heh
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March 10, 2009 9:00am
Glutaemus Maximus

Not unusual for SOC to move things around, ready for photographic evidence.

In which case all SOC evidential prosecutions for the last 20 years need to be re-tried.

The cheap black leather jacket man was a dream witness for the defense.

He was defensive, shifty, economical with the truth, and had zero credibility.

On another subject, did anybody think the young couple who ordered the ‘Penfolds Grange’ from a restaurant by the glass. To be told it was only available by the bottle, who had the wine list/price, and were presented the bottle from which the wine was decanted specially were really taking the piss?

They were either thick, or chancers, or both.

Yet they got away with it. Courtesy of Penfolds.

PR stunt?
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March 10, 2009 9:01am
peterwn

Two points on crimescene:
1. Ambulance officers unavoidably disturbed the crime scene – the paramount concern being to render any assistance to injured people.

2. It seemed the police investigation started off with the aim of ‘wrapping’ the thing for the coroner meaning less care may have been taken than if it started off as a homicide investigation.

I think that the prosecution may have been ambushed with respect to the photos. If the prosecution knew what was coming they may have got someone independent of the investigation to compare and correlate the photos, negatives and movies to at least try and determine the sequence they were taken. The movie camera used could date / time stamp the recording but the feature was not activated. The still camera(s) used did not have a date / time stamp feature (unlike virtually all digital cameras sold today).
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March 10, 2009 9:03am
CraigM

dime crosses the line between commenting on evidence given and commenting on Bains guilt or innocence. Silly dime.

I’m pretty sure there is a big difference between moving a fridge looking for evidence and moving bullets that are lying on the floor. Do you think there was a knife under the bullet?

I also think you should be able to tell which photo’s were taken in which order, so that if you do have to move the fridge you can prove it was done after the fact. Not being able to identify the order of the photos is very sloppy crime scene work.
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March 10, 2009 9:07am
stephen

philu http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/2237272/Keys-economy-plan-hailed-by-WSJ
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March 10, 2009 9:09am
Paul Marsden

dime (1118) Vote: 0 0 Says:

March 10th, 2009 at 8:55 am
yea the cops shouldnt be able to move anything!

that way, when ya stab someone, ya just have to hide the knife behind the fridge! sweet!

dime: You are obviously still asleep. You don’t remove the knife from behind the fridge until its position has been meticlously recorded. Worse, you don’t remove the knife and place it elsewhere whist the entire crime scene is being documented and recorded, then present the photgraphs etc as ‘evidence’ later in a court of law. Showing the ‘knife’ in one or more locations, can confuse a jury, don’t you think??
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March 10, 2009 9:10am
expat

phil was too stoned to remember thats where he read the story.
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March 10, 2009 9:11am
dime

soooo no comments on the injuries.. just photos that may be out of order.. just a shocking revelation!

i look forward to the discussion on how Robin managed to shoot himself without getting prints on the gun.. or any gunpowder residue on himself..
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March 10, 2009 9:16am
CraigM

dime, my comments are about the revelation that crime scenes are routinely altered, evidence moved etc..I find this staggering.

I’m not commenting on this case in particular other than the ‘moving evidence’ revelation came out during testimony given during Bain’s trial.

I’ll leave comments/thoughts about the guilt or innocence of David Bain to you.
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March 10, 2009 9:21am
Glutaemus Maximus

Anything can be moved once it is fully logged.

The Time/Date thing was a stupid ommission from procedure. Why would it ever be switched off or disabled?

However as they are re-settable in about 3 minutes, I wouldn’t get too hung up about it.

Cameras should be fully calibrated every day like speed sensor equipment. Sloppy procedure means that they hardly are.
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March 10, 2009 9:23am
dime

Craig – “staggering”? why? because thats not how its done on TV? 😛
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March 10, 2009 9:26am
CraigM

Craig – “staggering”? why? because thats not how its done on TV?

Yep, as I said earlier…….too much CSI 🙂

I do think that this evidence is going to come back and bite the police in the future. Surely crime scene evidence reliability just took a major hit ( perception is reality) and that is a scary thought, given the reliance on this aspect in so many major cases. I can see defense lawyers salivating after yesterdays comments……..
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March 10, 2009 9:42am
insider

You can see the defence’s strategy – try and highlight minor ‘issues’ or create the perception of them where they don’t exist and try and obfuscate on the totality of the weight of evidence, or create suspicion of prosecution motives.

It will be interesting how the prosecution deals with this. Will they engage every defence diversion or just focus on the big facts?

Craig – it didn’t appear like a major hit to me. There was a very contemporary video of the scene. If the defence are suggesting a framing of DB by the police then they are giving them credit for far more brains than most of us would. A motive for such would be handy too.
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March 10, 2009 9:45am
Spam

I hear Phil Goff this morning criticising the ACC board clean-out as being “political”. Of course, there was nothing political about stacking it with ex labour MPs and Union officials. He also justified the blow-out by saying that almost all investment companies have lost money in the last year. Since when was ACC an investment company? Is he really using that as an excuse?
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March 10, 2009 10:13am
petal

Glutaemus Maximus, why are you ranting on about Sister Of Cactus?
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March 10, 2009 10:18am
dime

insider – it’s the only strategy the defence has available. The prosecution should be ready for it.. you’d hope.
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March 10, 2009 10:33am
PhilBest

Didn’t DPF say we really shouldn’t make prejudicial comments on here about a criminal justice trial in process?
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March 10, 2009 10:46am
dime

philbest – we are just commenting on the type of evidence being highlighted by the media and the defence 😛
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March 10, 2009 11:04am
big bruv

I note that the Unions are kicking up a storm re the nine day fortnight, apparently they see no reason why their members should lose a days pay.

What part of “recession” do these idiots not get?

If I was faced with losing my job and the boss told me that the only way he could keep me on was to go onto a nine day fortnight then it would be an easy choice, indeed I believe that those workers who are faced with this choice would be better to offer to work the tenth day for free.

Any reasonable employer would remember that type of dedication and commitment when the economy picked up again.
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March 10, 2009 11:05am
Patrick Starr

“Didn’t DPF say we really shouldn’t make prejudicial comments on here about a criminal justice trial in process?”

and if it takes 15 years ?
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March 10, 2009 11:28am
peterwn

Update on my earlier posting. I suggested that the police should have carefully checked the status of the photo evidence before the retrial. It turns out that a specialist did to the best of his ability, but was not able to place them all in chronological sequence. The video provides an important link but it seems on one can quite remember when it was taken.

It would seem to me that the status of photo evidence is rarely challenged, an album and an affidavit from the photographer generally being adequate. Hence the processes for taking and preserving photos were not as robust as they should have been.
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March 10, 2009 11:49am
Murray

Another trial by chattering. Makes me so proud to be a kiwi.
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March 10, 2009 11:52am
racer

Spam:
“Since when was ACC an investment company? Is he really using that as an excuse?”

There is a significant aspect of investment in most insurance companies, you don’t think they just keep the premiums (or levy’s in this case) sitting around in a bank account do you?
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March 10, 2009 11:52am
Tauhei Notts

Dime at 9.00 a.m.
Tax Cuts
A person on $36,000 per annum will have an extra $8.97 tax to pay per month.
BUT
If that person is eligible for the new Independent Earner Tax Credit then there will be a decent tax reduction.
Basically, people who are not bludgers qualify for the Independent Earner Tax Credit.
Tax Simplification is the ultimate oxymoron. The tax tables were 88 pages up to 31 March 2009.
The tax tables from 1st April 2009 are 136 pages.
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March 10, 2009 12:01pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

The next big tax change will be to scrap Bludging for Families.
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March 10, 2009 12:15pm
Freckles

Complete change of subject…. anybody here a cyclist? I think the cycleway is absolutely visionary. It has potential to change the face of this country in the most beneficial way long-term. Being keen campers, (and cyclists) our family are constantly meeting cycling tourists and let me say they are predominantly middle-aged with decent incomes (ie – not travelling this way because they want to do it on the cheap but because they want independence). We need to attract those people and their friends over and over again – and make it possible for them to spend their dollars in local cafes, tourist trinket shops, attractions etc. According to Lonely Planet, the ‘independent traveller’ is their biggest market.
Not to mention the huge benefits for locals in just getting to work. At the moment you take your life in your hands just getting from A to B on a bike. I think a cycle way would lead to a positive cultural mind-shift (cycling visibility etc), even for those whose regular route may not go that way. Good stuff.
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March 10, 2009 12:18pm
baxter

I see the killer Kuariki (or similar) got another final warning from the pathetic judge for breaching his parole again. Compounded the joke by giving the fingers to the court as he left.
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March 10, 2009 1:11pm
Inventory2

Parliament’s having an urgent debate over the sacking of the ACC chairman. Goff’s been speaking for less than two minutes, and already he sounds as though he’s about to pop a fufu valve – “those nasty Nats want to privatise ACC” he’s saying!
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March 10, 2009 3:13pm
big bruv

Anybody else get the feeling that Dr Lockwood Smith is be a bit to generous with the corrupt Labour opposition?
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March 10, 2009 3:13pm
Inventory2

Maybe bruv it’s just the shock of him being fair and even-handed after nine years of watching Hunt and Wilson run interference for the PM.
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March 10, 2009 3:30pm
greenfly

Murray – Another trial by chattering Nice line!
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March 10, 2009 3:32pm
greenfly

Freckles – what a Green idea! Bound to be a good’un.
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March 10, 2009 3:34pm
big bruv

I am listening to and watching David Parker speak in the house, if you don’t look at the screen you would swear that Bill Rowling was the one taking the call.

Best Labour make Parker the leader as soon as possible.
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March 10, 2009 3:41pm
Inventory2

I was listening to Parker begin his speech, then I had a phonecall, and tuned out. When I started listening again, I wondered who the woman was – it wasn’t ’til I flicked on the telly that I found it was still Parker – the excitement must have sent his voice up an octave!

Now Sue Bradford is speaking, so the HDMI telly has been turned off!!!
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March 10, 2009 3:53pm
big bruv

IV2

You should have left it on, Bradford proved to the few doubters left that she is indeed an idiot.

It was the most disorganised, bumbling mixture of words (I refuse to call it a speech) I have ever heard.

Another reason to leave it on is that she is being followed by Sir Roger who as normal is hammering Labour with facts, the Labour side of the house has gone strangely silent.
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March 10, 2009 4:05pm
WebWrat

NEW ZEALAND: AN ESCAPE PLAN DESTINATION???

http://boortz.com/nealz_nuze/2009/03/new-zealand-an-escape-plan-des.html
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March 10, 2009 6:00pm
dime

Tauhei Notts – thanks mate! appreciate it!
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March 10, 2009 6:31pm
getstaffed

Freckles – I’m a keen cyclist. I commute weekdays and then MTB or roadie up a few k’s at the weekend. As much as I’d like a end-to-end cycleway it’s not practical or sustainable. The cost vs benefit isn’t there for the construction, and even if it did get built would almost certainly deteroriate dues to insufficient maintenance funding. Bottom line: pipe dream. Sorry.
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March 10, 2009 6:47pm
Max Call

Dime:

please see
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10560935
this mentions untested blood and injuries on Robin Bain
it also mentions that David Bain was NOT tested for gunshot residue
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March 10, 2009 7:27pm
Max Call

ooops – bit about David Bain not being tested is here
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10560870&pnum=2
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March 10, 2009 7:32pm
Steve

Cyclists.
Yes they can have a cycleway all through NZ, all around the world if they like.
But Cyclists must pay for it instead of relying on the motorist.
You want everything, but pay nothing.
Road user charges, Registration, ACC levys.
Ring your bell and we will provide for you.
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March 10, 2009 7:55pm
big bruv

I see that Clinton Smith (aka Steve Pierson) has tossed in the towel at the EPMU and Labour party funded blog, I guess he just can no longer bring himself to defend the indefensible.

http://www.thestandard.org.nz/steve-shuffles-off-his-mortal-coil/
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March 10, 2009 8:57pm
racer

Evidence Bruv, evidence…
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March 10, 2009 9:12pm
racer

or is it just known on kiwiblog?
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March 10, 2009 9:20pm
Freckles

Steve
I don’t have a problem with cyclists contributing, I’m not sure where you got that assumption. I’d be blogging on a different website if that was the case. However, lets also not forget that most cyclists ARE also motorists and therefore are paying all those things in the same way as everyone else. Perhaps more so for those of us who run our own businesses as well. And you’d have to be happy not to be paying my, much greater, health bills for obesity, diabetes, asthma etc if I weren’t keeping fit.
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March 18, 2009 11:56am

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