General Debate 1 February 2009

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dad4justice

In these challenging economic times I do wonder why we don’t hook into the huge gold seams that exist on the South Islands West Coast? NZ gold is high grade and commands respect from international buyers. This will send the demented tree huggers into another psychotic rave.
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February 1, 2009 9:03am
reid

Do you know if those reserves are owned by Crown Minerals d4j, or has it been sold to private mining interests?
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February 1, 2009 9:12am
Banana Llama

It looks like you need a permit to mine it rather than owning the gold in the ground and mining it.

http://www.crownminerals.govt.nz/cms/contact/ask-a-question
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February 1, 2009 9:16am
reid

Thanks Banana, I’m wondering what the terms of the permits would be in the case of gold which is going to be highly volatile in the next few years. What share does the state get if gold goes to $10,000 an ounce, for example. It would be a shame to lose control of that opportunity, to private interests.
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February 1, 2009 9:30am
greenfly

All that glisters…
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February 1, 2009 9:36am
Patrick Starr

Excellent D4J. Following thorough ‘MTR’ on the west coast we would have a perfect site for a nuclear power station
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February 1, 2009 9:44am
dad4justice

Patrick ; I think building water reservoirs in the region should be a priority as H2O will be more valuable than gold shortly.
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February 1, 2009 9:48am
Patrick Starr

I dunno if that would piss the Greens off though Dad
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February 1, 2009 9:50am
dad4justice

That’s the whole idea.
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February 1, 2009 9:52am
Owen McShane

There are incredibly valuable deposits down there and one landowner has rights but DoC will not enable access.

Costing the nation billions.
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February 1, 2009 9:53am
Patrick Starr

Conservation Minister is Tim Groser – surely it’s within his sights?
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February 1, 2009 9:55am
reid

Who’s the landowner Owen?

If private then the Crown owns the minerals below I think 100 feet?
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February 1, 2009 9:55am
Viking2

Don’t worry about the greens. Even their favorite National Greenie is about to give them a shove. Reports today that he has the changes to the RMA ready to go next week. Only problem is that he is passing them to another committee, in this case a select one. Dear God 9 years to plan and they still weren’t organized.
Read Lange’s book the other day. One of the note able things he said was that when they were elected they had no idea what the had to do. This lot are no better.
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February 1, 2009 9:57am
Patrick Starr

I suppose Greenfly is vomiting down her composting toilet about now…?
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February 1, 2009 10:00am
transmogrifier

Quite frankly, I’m astounded at the comparative lack of publicity regarding the death of Mark McCutcheon, when a few months ago we were saturated in coverage (rightly so) when Austin Hemmings was killed coming to the aid of a stranger.

What’s the big difference? Urban slaying vs. rural slaying? Crazed man vs. gang members? Religious guy vs. non-religious guy? Novelty vs been there done that?

I have no idea, but it is remarkable how two such similar stories could receive such dissimilar coverage. McCutcheon is just as much of a hero, more so because the danger was much more apparent. RIP.
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February 1, 2009 10:19am
greenfly

Patrick Starr – my compost toilet works well because I keep liquids out of it. You doubtless recognise the value of not pumping sewerage into our waterways and bays .. don’t you?? As to vomiting, my organic diet ensures that I don’t suffer up-chucking in the way that yours might and talk here of mining is just that, talk, so I’m unmoved. I’m supportive of dad’s statement that ‘water will be more valuable than gold’, however I’d add that it has been for a long time now (ask anyone living in a dessicated region what the’d rather have filling their pitchers). Dad has contradicted himself, as is his wont, with his ‘gold! gold! there’s gold..’ etc by accidentally recognising where the true value lies.
Btw. I’m fascinated, amused and buoyed by the 5 ‘thumbs down’ I received for writing,
“All that glisters..’
You are such a sensitive crew! Imagine if I’d said something provocative 🙂
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February 1, 2009 10:19am
dad4justice

No contradiction greenflee , mine the gold and the big hole fills up with water. Win – win situation for kiwi, but I don’t expect your type to understand common sense. I hope you didn’t cut yourself shaving this morning?
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February 1, 2009 10:23am
reid

Yes I’m rather fascinated by my 1 point down for my 9:30 too, greenfly. My conclusion is that some people here must be children, as who else would think that you’re ‘the enemy’ unless everything you write is agreeable to them…

Oddly enough it’s only been happening since my Gaza debates, wonder if there’s any connection…
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February 1, 2009 10:27am
Frank

Consider for a moment the following sobering facts. The World’s global finances haven’ hit rock bottom yett

“The United States of America is an expensive household to run. In order to pay the nation’s bills, the U.S. government levies taxes. When expenditures exceed tax revenue, the government has to borrow money. The United States borrows money by ordering the Treasury Department to sell government IOUs to investors in the form of Treasury bills, notes and bonds, known as “Treasuries.”

How much does the government owe? As of Friday, according to TreasuryDirect.gov, total U.S. public debt stood at $10,620,397,126,433.54 ($10.62 trillion) – and counting.

The Case for Treasuries
Investors throughout the world – including those here in the United States – buy Treasuries because they pay interest and, moreover, because they are backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. What underlies the faith that investors have in repayment is the knowledge that the U.S. government has the power to levy taxes to raise money to pay back creditors. In addition to its taxing authority, the government can literally print money and pay back investors with dollars fresh off the U.S. Federal Reserve’s printing presses”.
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February 1, 2009 10:32am
Patrick Starr

well reid, to prove it wasnt me (if thats what you mean)- I’ll give that post a thumbs up right now
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February 1, 2009 10:32am
reid

No I didn’t mean that at all Patrick, really.

It’s just an interesting timing. And I’ve made plenty of comments since then where none of you guys that I debated with had made any posts on the thread, and yet still received the negative on quite neutral comments.

Of course I don’t care, if you get concerned about Karma either way, you’ve probably got more than a few problems. I just find it fascinating…
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February 1, 2009 10:43am
Banana Llama

Probably someone still having nightmares about the last election, they see a red thumbs down and just go into a hulk smash rage.
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February 1, 2009 10:58am
Christopher

You doubtless recognise the value of not pumping sewerage into our waterways and bays .. don’t you??

Just to bring up something close to my heart, the Dunedin Stadium i going to cost my city millions and millions for absolutely ZERO benefit.

My question to the DCC is: if you’re uncomfortable leaving money in the pockets of stupid ratepayers, who will only use it to, you know, make their lives better and increase the wealth of society, why are you spending tens of millions of dollars on a bauble when we still pump sewage into our pristine bays?

As a raging, unrepentant rightie, I think I may have found myself a point of agreement with a filthy hippie.

What say you Greenfly? Stadium or better sewage disposal?
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February 1, 2009 11:15am
Brian Smaller

I go for better sewage treatment every time and I am an unrepentent rightie. If the stadium is so good, let someone pay for it without tax payers money and make money off it.

As an aside – my son left for boarding school yesterday. God the house is quiet. Who else is sending kids off to school tomorrow? Kids certainly make the years fly past.
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February 1, 2009 11:34am
Fred

Frank,

Need more cheering up? Check out http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/ and http://www.tickerforum.org/cgi-ticker/akcs-www?post=80902&page=4 second post down I thought was interesting.
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February 1, 2009 11:46am
Fred

A solution (implemented as the wholesale/retail Govt Guarantee is removed).

– OCR down to zero and stays there.
– Everyone – banks included, nominate one account that’s government guaranteed, one account any bank you choose.
– The balance in this account is taken out of the equation for a bank’s reserve/leverage/asset. The bank is effectively acting as an agent.
– A “stamp duty” of 2 to 3 % is taken by the government for all withdrawals from this account as a tax. Collected daily.
– List all banks/finance companies.

Why?

– A no risk deposit should not pay any interest.

Some results;

– Transactions settled via a third party, attract twice the stamp duty, credit card payments, debt factoring etc more expensive. Speculative transactions need to “make” more than 6% just to be worth it so it takes the sting out of the money go round.

And not too complicated or a major shift in thinking. Instead of the OCR the govt uses this “stamp duty” as one of the levers.
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February 1, 2009 12:04pm
reid

Yes Fred and it’s important to note it’s not just fractional reserve banking but the monetary system that needs to be changed..
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February 1, 2009 12:05pm
Viking2

Remember when you read this from the Australian that we do 30% of our exports to Aussie.

THE global financial crisis has dragged Australia into recession with its economy forecast to contract by 0.2pc this year, according to the International Monetary Fund.
The unpublished IMF forecasts for Australia suggest that the recession will be drawn out, with economic growth predicted to recover by a weak 1.75 pc in 2010.

The Australian revealed last week that the IMF was due to revise down its 1.8 pc forecast for Australian gross domestic product growth in 2009 to close to zero.

Confirmation that the economy will go backwards this year suggests unemployment could rise steeply.

It will put pressure on the Reserve Bank to cut official interest rates by another 100 basis points on Tuesday.

Australia has been one of the last developed countries to slip into recession, in part because of the lingering boost from China’s boom.

But this is now coming to an end as China has also been dragged into the global economic downturn.

The IMF this week again sharply cut its forecast for global economic growth in line with the deepening of the international financial and banking crisis and a collapse in consumer spending around the world.

The Washington based IMF said the world economy would grow a mere 0.5pc this year, including a bracing 2pc contraction for developed nations.

Australia’s forecast -0.2pc growth this year is not as dire as the US (-1.6pc), Europe (-2pc), the UK (-2.8 pc) and Japan (-2.6pc).
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February 1, 2009 12:17pm
Fred

Reid, also Zeitgeist the addendum. I think the fractional reserve should be retained (actually re-imposed), maybe on a graduating scale. So 10 people could get together to form a credit union to assist each other to get into business and not be required to deposit any money in reserve (always at zero percent interest) but as the organisation gets larger, the reserve and (listing requirement kicks in) up to the 8% level maximum. This reserve % is the other economic lever the Govt uses, and forms the underlying share valuation of the bank (and is the most the Govt ever has to contribute if it goes under)
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February 1, 2009 12:30pm
greenfly

Christopher – stadium or sewerage disposal – no competition, I’m for sustainability every time. Dunedin is far from alone when it comes to appalling disposal of its human effluent. Earth closets, not water closets, that’s my recommendation.
dad – no cuts this morning, my cheeks are as smooth as a baby’s bottom, thanks to Veet 🙂
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February 1, 2009 12:42pm
grumpyoldhori

My Maori gods, some of you people have no idea do you, rugby which is now a business is owed a decent stadium at ratepayer cost.
You would have so called professional players earning ? a million bucks a year turning out in crappy stadiums.
Oh the shame of it all, so what if some old dear has her rates raised so high she cannot afford heating off the pittance she gets.
She owes the business called rugby.
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February 1, 2009 12:58pm
grumpyoldhori

Paula Bennett, good enough ?
Is that the amount of intellectual firepower we expect in a minister of the crown ?
She writes to a judge being arrogant enough to state she is an MP, then bugger me she does not even bother to check her bloody spelling before sending it off.

Her grammar, well she is a westie so could we expect much more than that ?
So how many of you true blue types believe that she is good enough to be in that position ?
Or would you prefer her to be the minister of foreign affairs ?
After all she can see Australia from her house, you betcha.
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February 1, 2009 1:07pm
Inventory2

Has anyone else read Anita’s column on Kiwipolitico where she accuses John Key of arranging whispering campaigns against Helen Clark? I’ve suggested she needs to provide evicdence, and challenged her to put up or shut up

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2009/01/fisking-anita.html
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February 1, 2009 1:13pm
grumpyoldhori

Republican party chairman.
Hell this is funny, the GOP selecting a bloke who can play the, now you see me, now you don’t game on a zebra crossing.
Heh, now they are trying to state that he is a typical Republican.
Yep, and I am sure I heard that god bothering crowd who went to see bible spice yelling out, he’s a cracker.
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February 1, 2009 1:15pm
kiki

Simple solution is let the free-market rule. Zero income tax with only consumer tax, business tax and capital gains used for infrastructure and social/education spending.

The access to workers pockets is the root cause of these problems. Elite’s with their privileged positions

This will be an interesting adjustment
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February 1, 2009 1:21pm
grumpyoldhori

kiki, so you want absolute purity in your free market system ?
I take it you believe that if a farmer gets too much water on his property he should not get any taxpayer help ?
Strange how many of the so called Libertarian types raved that they were owed taxpayer help while at university.
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February 1, 2009 1:55pm
Banana Llama

Complete free market will never work with the current financial institutions, tariffs and contradicting laws around the world.
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February 1, 2009 2:07pm
reid

Heard Bernard Hickey on Sunday Business (RadioLive between 12-1 – excellent show), say that, as I said yesterday, the only choice the US govt has with respect to the biggest banks in the US, is to either nationalise them or let them fail. I’m always glad when someone like Bernard agrees with me. By “nationalise” he said, he meant, take them over, not pay for them.

He also talked about the world retreating behind trade barriers, which is obviously an incredibly bad thing for us down here.

The GFC is like a slow-mo train wreck, isn’t it. Maybe we should ramp up our population to about 10-15 million immediately so at least we’ve got a decent internal market to keep our trading going. I’m not kidding, either. We could pick and choose the migrants, there would be plenty to chose from.
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February 1, 2009 3:16pm
kiki

Population growth for economic growth is crap yes housing goes well and the major land owners benefit but does the wealth of the individuals really grow?

We have run such a policy for some time now, although slowly, are we richer? or are we now in the shit like everyone else? China and India should be booming except when you take away the exports they die.

We are part of the world and trying to create a little bubble around ourselves won’t work.

We need real world wage costs, an education system that produces something we can use and an end to cross subsidisation so those businesses that the world want can survive and the rest can die. If after this our population grows because the labour is needed and the benefits for those moving here are real then good if our population shrinks but the income per-person increases good.
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February 1, 2009 3:38pm
kiki

Oh and grumpy if that farmer chose to farm land that could flood so be it, that cost should be in the cost he paid for the land. You see no one wants to pay the full cost of their actions but they always want the full benefits
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February 1, 2009 3:42pm
kiki

If fact while I’m on a roll there is no real crisis. Some people made bad investment and management decisions let them fail so that those that made good decisions can move on. The crisis is in the heads of those who made the bad choices.
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February 1, 2009 3:57pm
reid

If fact while I’m on a roll there is no real crisis.

kiki one of the more reliable indicators that we are indeed in a crisis is the fact they’ve actually given it an acronym: GFC

(Actually it’s an initialism if you want to be pedantic.)

Seriously mate, if you think there won’t be new paradigms emerging from this then you haven’t been thinking too hard about what this all means. Forget economics, although that’s bad enough, this is also the beginning of some major geopolitical shifts as well.

When the US govt is faced with either the failure of or nationalisation of; Citigroup, Bank of America and JPM, then I’d say you’ve got more than a small problem on your hands.

Don’t forget about all the companies with pension fund liabilities that exceed their market cap as well. In the UK this includes:

Company / Market Cap / Pension scheme (liabilities)
Aviva: £6.7bn | £8.23bn
BAE Systems: £13.9bn | £17.2bn
Balfour Beatty: £1.63bn | £2.42bn
Barclays: £4.36bn | £17.6bn
British Airways: £1.7bn | £8.56bn
BT Group: £8.5bn | £34.5bn
First Group: £1.42bn | £2.79bn
Invensys: £1.15bn | £4.9bn
Lloyds Banking: £7.6bn | £24.4bn
Marks & Spencer: £3.45bn | £4.56bn
ational Grid: £15.25bn | £18.2bn
Rolls-Royce: £5.7bn £6.9bn |
Royal Bank of Scotland: £4.3bn | £27.3bn
RSA: £4.35bn | £5.08bn

What happens to all those people if those companies fail?
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February 1, 2009 4:09pm
reid

Population growth for economic growth is crap yes housing goes well and the major land owners benefit but does the wealth of the individuals really grow?

Since I live here and own land here, I don’t care kiki, so long as I’m alright. That’s why I think it’s a terrific idea.
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February 1, 2009 4:18pm
grumpyoldhori

Kiki, whoa, what on earth will eduction have to do with any minimal government we have, you want a full free market system so be it.

So all schools will be private where parents will pay the full cost of sending their little darlings.
Free market is fun is it not 🙂
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February 1, 2009 4:23pm
kiki

Why not? I must admit not total free market but if you ask Roger Douglas he will tell you what we need. All that stands in the way is the socialist national party.
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February 1, 2009 4:50pm
kiki

Sorry but if a company can’t pay it’s bills then it really shouldn’t exist and chucking tax money won’t fix them this is just all unsustainable their really is no solution but to allow them to go with all their debts and just start again with new owners, I’m certain they are waiting
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February 1, 2009 4:53pm
Hagues

reid “kiki one of the more reliable indicators that we are indeed in a crisis is the fact they’ve actually given it an acronym: GFC
(Actually it’s an initialism if you want to be pedantic.)”

Initialism/acronym means SFA really. I present AGW as evidence that the fact that “they” give the “crisis” an acronym does not necessarily mean it is so.
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February 1, 2009 5:12pm
reid

Yes, I don’t really think that’s the best evidence for the GFC, Hagues. Perhaps you didn’t read the rest.
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February 1, 2009 5:23pm
reid

Sorry but if a company can’t pay it’s bills then it really shouldn’t exist

Quite agree kiki. That’s why I said days ago when I first mentioned it that IMO the US should stand aside and let those banks fail.

Bet they don’t, though.

As far as the companies with pension fund liabilities go, even if you let the companies fail, would you also let the pensioners suffer as well? I think there are different arguments there, or perhaps your mileage differs.
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February 1, 2009 5:26pm
Hagues

now that you mention it I may have skimmed over the rest, my bad.
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February 1, 2009 5:29pm
grumpyoldhori

Reid, bale out company pensions, why, people working for those companies must have known the companies would have been running those so called pension schemes themselves.
They have taken a gamble and lost , why should a pension of say a hundred thousand pounds a year be bailed out by taxpayers ?
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February 1, 2009 6:38pm
grumpyoldhori

Kiki, sorry but any person who wants a free market economy should want a total free market economy.
Why are there so many wimps amongst those who call for a free market system.
In some ways I like the idea, no more students whining that they are owed by the taxpayer at the age of eighteen.
Nope the rule will be bright enough for university, bright enough to pay the full cost upfront each year.

Oh, free market means one pays for it all, get lost in the bush, do not expect volunteers to look for you.
You would not expect volunteers to waste valuable tine looking for you
would you ?
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February 1, 2009 6:46pm
reid

Well it’s a sentimental reason grumpy, but one of the hallmark indicators of a society is how it treats its helpless: the very young, the disabled and the elderly.

I’m not suggesting those people would necessarily get their full entitlement even if the state did intervene and remember, that those funds have been invested in the markets along with a lot of other pension funds as well. So it’s not so much a question of dealing only with those people that worked for those companies that go under, but also everyone who has any money in any pension fund which cannot now meet its liabilities due to the market downturn.

That could be a whole lot of people, who need cash just to survive and who have lost their earning power through age.
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February 1, 2009 6:51pm
Komata

To return to the matter of gold and the mining there-of (sorry, couldn’t answer at the time Owen posted) ):

It is simply too difficult to get involved. The rules are very complicated and to even get permission to Prospect (ie to simply start looking), requires a huge amount of paper and legal to-ing and fro-ing and the Minister, after all the ‘paper’ has been completed and permissions granted by interested parties (ie landownwers) and fees etc paid ($10,000 minimum), can decline the application and not have to give any reason. There is NO right of appeal – and this is only to start looking!

As you can imagine this does not exactly encourage particpation by the ‘little guy’ small party who might be onto something – a far cry from the days of Miner’s Rights and Crown Assistance for the industry.

There are in addition several other factors which, sadly, have to be remembered:

The Coromandel Peninsular (my particular area of interest) is now inhabitted by individuals who have interests in the growing of ‘illegal vegetation’ and get somewhat destructively-upset when miners (even holders of existing permits) look too closely at what they are doing. Understandably they do not want ANY miners or prospectors, big or small, looking around their ‘areas of special interest’ and, as noted, tend to become somewhat destructive and ‘anti’ if any interest in an area is expressed.

These individuals, including a certain J Fitzsimmons, were very active during the 80’s and 90’s, (no doubt other will remeber them?), ostensibly in protection of the green, pristine peninsular, but in reality in self-interest mode, as any prospecting and mining would have had a very detrimental effect on the cultvation of a certain (still illegal) plant.

These protesters evolved into the Greens (’nuff said?), having successfully managed to persuade a very gullible public that ‘Green Good, Mining Bad’ – the economic necessity or desirability of extracting the gold (of which there is still a very large amount to be had) being totally subsumed by the carefully-screened self interest of the individuals concerned.

Currently, unless the National Government changes things (Labour Never would have – it needed the Greens too much) there is absolutely no chance that prospecting and mining will return to the peninsular – despite the very high economic desirability of this industry and the return it will give to the country.

And if, by some miracle, the relevant regulations WERTE changed, self-interest would once again kick in and the protestors (probably with Ms Fitzsimmons to the fore, and ostensibly ‘peaceful’) would re-emerge once again and do as they did before, picketting and destroying mining sites and machinery. (peacefully of course), and now aided by those individuals who have been fed the concerted ‘Green’ environmental message that has permeated the education system for the past 10 years.

These products of the education system will, of course, view all and any mining activity as ‘Bad’. so there is very little (as in zilch) chance that the old mines will reopen or that prospecting will be allowed.

It’s amazing , isn’t it, what carefully camouflaged self-interest can do.

Hope this has been of interest and (Usual Disclaimer), I have no associations with any mining groups or companies – I’m just an average Kiwi who is interested in such things.
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February 1, 2009 7:46pm
Fred

Kiki,

I agree, yes let them fail, but a bank is technically insolvent at all times, so the question is where do you draw the line. The other issue with banks is that they spread risk, they are so tightly meshed, that when one goes a whole lot go. And when they do go, they take the good and the bad down as well (the deserving and the undeserving). My suggestion above fixes much of this by separating the trading function of the bank from the investment function, listing the bank provides transparency (and keeps public servants away from any bailout decisions), and provides a clear line for everyone between absolute safety (and zero interest paid) and a investment decision based on return and risk. Zero income tax yes, capital gains tax? why tax someone because an asset is priced differently by the market. Better to have a capital tax (a tax on equity) and this is where I got to the “stamp duty” on all transactions. The Government takes the cut at the time the investment decision is made (if the transaction is for investment) and if it’s consumption, it’s a consumption tax. So 3 to 6% seems right for this as well, and if you really wanted to throttle things it could go up to 8%. Kept real simple and the tax is collected by the banking system automatically.
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February 1, 2009 8:00pm
dime

Socialist Aussie!

Rudd wants a new word order..

KEVIN RUDD has denounced the unfettered capitalism of the past three decades and called for a new era of “social capitalism” in which government intervention and regulation feature heavily.

In an essay to be published next week, the Prime Minister is scathing of the neo-liberals who began refashioning the market system in the 1970s, and ultimately brought about the global financial crisis.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2009/01/30/1232818725574.html

one term rudd me thinks
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February 1, 2009 8:37pm
Fred

“Mr Rudd commits to keeping budgets in surplus “over the cycle”, meaning deficits should be temporary. In a further sign the Government is not contemplating additional tax cuts, which would deliver a permanent hit to revenue, he stresses that stimulus measures have to be paid for when the economy recovers.”

In other words has no idea of what caused the problem. A stimulus measure, if it is the right thing, will pay for itself. Big government and “big banking” are the same thing. Extracting rent from production.
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February 1, 2009 9:24pm
bringbackthebiff

WTF is going on over there. A 7 month old baby soaked in beer outside a pub in Whangarei at 4 in the morning. How can NZ society think this is acceptable. Cut any benefits the bitch mother of this poor child is getting and ensure she never receives another cent. While they are at it, they could do a big favour and sterilize both parents.

This is a F$%kn disgrace, same goes for the whore out boozn in Kairoura.
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February 1, 2009 10:47pm
jcuknz

I’m reading [NYT] about the ‘new’ elite in Washington …. those who know Obama’s e-mail address. My guess is that it will not be so select petty fast judging by the complete and absolute incompretance that the average person uses the web and simply clicks of copy rather than BCC.

To the previous poster … the problem has always been that if you penalise the mother the child suffers first. The only way is to remove the child from the ‘care’ of the mother into a proper and truely caring atmosphere if you can find it.
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February 2, 2009 7:25am
william

Christopher,

Re. the Dunedin Stadium and sewage…… you seem to have omitted the fact that the Dunedin Council IS currently building improved wastewater treatment facilities at a cost of more than $100 million.
I think the first stage is completed with a second stage to be completed by 2011…… about the same time as the Stadium.

By the way, they don’t currently pump sewage into any waterways. What is pumped out to sea is treated effluent …. the same as occurs in many places in NZ.

As to your comments about the Stadium bringing zero benefit, well I’d suggest you just look back at what they said about the cake tim before it was built and what is said now about its benefit…….. similar articles exist about the Vector arena in auckland.
.
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February 3, 2009 10:05am

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