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February 14, 2009 8:31am by David Farrar

General Debate 14 February 2009

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PhilBest

Apropos here:

“Is Food the New Sex? A Curious Reversal In Moralizing” By Mary Eberstadt

http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/38245724.html
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February 14, 2009 4:43pm
greenfly

PhilBest – I’m puzzled by how you think that the actions of some lobbyists in Australia can be attributed to the Greens (I presume you mean the New Zealand Green Party, when you say ‘you Greens’)
PhilBest said: “it shows just how low you Greens rate right now.”
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February 14, 2009 4:49pm
Patrick Starr

Greenfly, why is it the Greens focus on the school diet, and not the schools sport and PE?
Kids have eaten crap food in scools and on the way home from schools for decades. The difference between then and now, apart from the kids waist line is the level of PE and sport

If you subscribe to making schools responsible for one meal of the kids day, then why not do the same for the other two at the home – and just give DPB’s a healthy food voucher instead of cash?
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February 14, 2009 5:07pm
kiwipolemicist

reid: what is the designed destruction that you see in the capitalist and military frameworks of conservative politics?

It’s interesting that the government calls it “Early Childhood Education”. Kindies aren’t child minding services, they’re state indoctrination camps.

I covered that in a post a while ago, but I’ve put up enough links for today.
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February 14, 2009 5:08pm
PhilBest

Greenfly, why do you call yourself “Greenfly”? Why does Greenpeace call itself Greenpeace?

“Some lobbyists”? Would you connect “some lobbyists” in favour of free markets and deregulation, with “Capitalism” generally, or not?

OK, I mean “environmentalists” rate very low right now; and that includes Green parties. If “capitalists” rate very low right now, you’d include the ACT Party in that, presumably.

I vented my spleen the other day at the ongoing death toll and human distress all over the world as a consequence of “Green/”/”environmentalism” policies; the Victoria tragedy has just brought it a bit closer to home for the Aussies and us.

I recommend to you, the book “Eco-Imperialism: Green Power, Black Death” By Paul Driessen; and “The Skeptical Environmentalist” by Bjorn Lomborg. Read these, and come over from the dark side.
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February 14, 2009 5:12pm
grumpyoldhori

Reid, Detroit has a bloody big problem in the form of the Chinese turning out electric cars which are better and cheaper than what Detroit can turn out.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99286134

Will Americans buy Detroit made cars at US $40,000 or Chinese ones at US $20,000 ? if they are of the same quality ?
Damn the funniest blog I have read is a Republican saying that the Democrats should have done something to stop all those jobs going offshore, seems he believes the heads of companies who made the decision to buy Chinese are all Democrats.

So will Obama bite the bullet of the Chinese having so much American cash and bring in stiff tariffs to get the yank manufacturers going again ?
Or is it too late ?
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February 14, 2009 5:34pm
Inventory2

KP – you’re not wrong about Early Childhood Education. Fortunately, our service is registered as having a Christian philopsphy and special character, which gives us some extra flexibilty.
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February 14, 2009 5:38pm
AG

PB:

“I recommend to you, the book “Eco-Imperialism: Green Power, Black Death” By Paul Driessen; and “The Skeptical Environmentalist” by Bjorn Lomborg. Read these, and come over from the dark side.”

And after you’ve read Lomborg’s book, read about why it isn’t very good.

http://info-pollution.com/lomborg.htm
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February 14, 2009 5:55pm
greenfly

PhilBest – I’ve often heard and read conventional farmers refering to themselves as ‘environmentalists’. The BlueGreen arm of the National Party are ‘true environmentalists’ and the argument that ‘environmentalism’ and ‘green thinking’ being as much a phenomenon of the right wing, has long been put here on this blog. Are you suggesting that farmers, National Party members and Right-wingers are responsible for the fires? Are you confused in your thinking? Your argument is confused.
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February 14, 2009 6:16pm
greenfly

Patrick Starr said: “Kids have eaten crap food in scools and on the way home from schools for decades.”
And you suggest, Patrick, that nothing should be done about that, given that there are now new problems for kids to face (sedentary, computer gaming, a multitude of tv chanels to choose from, dvd’s by the score, tv’s in their rooms, etc ect. and you suggest we don’t do anything about the foods we make available to them at school? More physical activities for sure (I don’t agree with you when you say schools don’t provide pe and similar activities – what leads you to think that?) but don’t provide fat crap topped with sugar for kids – it’s irresponsible.
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February 14, 2009 6:22pm
reid

reid: what is the designed destruction that you see in the capitalist and military frameworks of conservative politics?

Examples in the capitalist sector include the manipulation of the interest rates that made money really really cheap. The curious 2006 cessation of the M3 data tracking which meant the printing presses went into overdrive. Allowing the creation of derivatives and CDOs which was always monopoly money and in the beginning, were OK, but as they then got out of control and cried out for regulation, no-one steps in to do this, and I’ve mentioned the Spitzer allegations previously where Bush used the OCC to prevent all 50 State Attorneys General investigating the predatory lending that lead to sub-prime. You can explain some of these actions in terms of acting to support vested political interests so they keep donations flowing, but others like the M3 are more problematic in terms of that explanation.

The military ones are more subtle and depends on a certain view of geopolitics which not many people share with me, I rather suspect Phil doesn’t, for example. However, these basically come down to a view that the leadership of certain nations are acting to deliberately undermine: i.e. weaken their own military by deliberately using it in engagements that weaken them either in reputational terms or in real terms. A reputational attack is just as real as an actual attack because it damages the fighting spirit of the forces and it also changes the likelihood of it itself being attacked. It involves more nations than just the US and it crosses over both left and conservative lines. On that vein I believe both Clinton and Bush have done significant damage to the US military, Clinton by his curious Chinese incidents which are many and varied.

Some people think Clinton was great because they think it was a time of prosperity and peace. Bullshit. Highly suspicious things happened with Chinese military espionage during Clinton’s time in office. The US did things like transfer an entire restricted factory to China. The legacy codes were stolen by a US-Chinese citizen. This gave China the neutron bomb. Metallurgy secrets for MIRV warheads were stolen, suddenly, the Chinese warheads stopped disintegrating on re-entry. We had the curious E-6 Intruder force-down. You also had Clinton’s political connections with Chinese nationals.

During the Bush years in the early years we had the marines being sent to Iraq without adequate armour (families had to buy their own for their children who were being shipped off), you have the appalling treatment of the wounded Iraq vets, you have the Iraq debacle itself which was based on contrived intelligence sold to a gullible public.

All these actions significantly weakened the US military but for many people seeing those as deliberate calculated actions is a bridge too far. I don’t really want to if you don’t mind, kp, get into a detailed explanation of why I see what I see behind those things because most people will just think it’s just a bunch of stuff that happened. Explaining how I view the world would take a long time and be fearfully boring for everyone here, I imagine. But those are some of the reasons behind my comment.
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February 14, 2009 6:25pm
Portia

Detroit has been looking at the wrong thing and in ordinary times they should pay the capitalist price and cease to exist.

Reid, the thing is, I don’t think there’s much the government can do to save it. The inefficiencies and the lack of vision and innovation permeate right to the core of the industry. What they could do is let the existing firms go under and make the same bail-out funds available to those who do have the energy and ideas, but that will also take some time. And, as Friedman points out, other countries have probably got the head-start on the US now.

Detroit has a bloody big problem in the form of the Chinese turning out electric cars which are better and cheaper than what Detroit can turn out.

And to think, GM was first to market with its electric car over 15 years ago. It had an instant early adopter following, was well-primed to launch to the next level and… it took the first opportunity it could to cannabilise itself. Watch the documentary film, Who Killed the Electric Car and shake your head at just how stupidly myopic the US auto industry has been.
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February 14, 2009 6:28pm
Redbaiter

Good stuff from Reid and Phil Best of the left’s lengthy and gradual assault of the family unit. Why is it that the left know the plan, but so many of the right steadfastly refuse to acknowledge it and worse, run around like chooks with their heads cut off supporting measures that assist the left in their anti-family objectives, and thereby help to contribute to their own demise???
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February 14, 2009 6:30pm
dad4justice

Socialists detest the family unit as it is the hardest to control. Will National support the traditional family? Miss Klark and her bent sisterhood cronies stuffed the kiwi family unit.
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February 14, 2009 6:35pm
reid

So will Obama bite the bullet of the Chinese having so much American cash and bring in stiff tariffs to get the yank manufacturers going again ?

You’re talking about the Chinese trillion plus USD holdings, grumpy? A very good question.

The other side however is, how many yank manufacturers are actually left?

Protectionism is probably going to be coming in, big time, across the whole world. Maybe it’ll happen by region. If it does, we’ll be sweet. We get the Chinese, Japanese and SE Asians. Yippee. Enough hungry mouths to keep us going. Trouble is, they’re rather violent, nasty creatures when they want to be. And they wouldn’t be looking at just us, they’d be looking at Aus, most of all, for the raw materials she’s got. What the hell are we going to do then?

In the US, I think you’ll see the NAFTA free trade zone setup which encompasses Canada, USA and Mexico. Question is, what’s the people of the US going to think about all those poor Mexicans flooding into Californy and doing what they do once they get there? It’s already bad enough even with nominal border control. Not too much future if you’re a white, middle class Californian, I’d say, if or should I say when, NAFTA hits Congress.
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February 14, 2009 6:38pm
getstaffed

Reid at 11:51. Bullseye. Well done.
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February 14, 2009 6:42pm
getstaffed

ah greenfly and his junk food at school hobbie horse.

in his warped Green world it’s ok for a 14 year old schoolgirl to choose a abortion, or a joint, but not for her to choose a pie.

and you wonder why the Greens aren’t taken seriously!
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February 14, 2009 6:48pm
reid

Reid, the thing is, I don’t think there’s much the government can do to save it. The inefficiencies and the lack of vision and innovation permeate right to the core of the industry. What they could do is let the existing firms go under and make the same bail-out funds available to those who do have the energy and ideas, but that will also take some time. And, as Friedman points out, other countries have probably got the head-start on the US now.

One thing I’m concerned about Portia are the downstream industries that rely on the Big Three, the dealers and more importantly, the suppliers. Those dealers represent a huge amount of medium industry right across America and since the Wal-Mart invasion that’s decimated the retail sector, if all of those were to go under then you could see a lot of tumbleweed blowing through a hell of a lot of small-town America.

If it has to be done: i.e. they can’t recover on their own, I would actually prefer to see them nationalised temporarily, but not for the long term. Just for long enough to install some new strategies that could take advantage of the manufacturing infrastructure it has not just in the auto plants but also in the supplier plants.

Those strategies might include not necessarily remaining in vehicle manufacture but possibly retooling to get into other technologies. Whatever leveraged the future industries from their existing base in the best possible way. Normally I’m against nationalisation however if you simply allow the market to decide and sell it off piece-meal then it would be sliced and diced without any overall strategic perspective, and since this is one of the last remaining engines in the US manufacturing sector, allowing that to happen, would be a mistake, IMO. Not that I’ll be at all surprised if that doesn’t actually happen.
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February 14, 2009 7:04pm
grumpyoldhori

Does the USA NEED to have trade from other countries ?
Other than oil and say coffee I cannot think of an item the the USA cannot supply itself .
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February 14, 2009 7:09pm
greenfly

getstaffed – you are bullshitting. I’ve not mentioned abortion or joints. Are you afraid to engage in debate with me or is that in your ‘too hard’ basket? I’m off for a walk in the cool of the evening. I don’t expect you have the spine to address my ideas, but who knows, you might grow one. I’ll have a look when I get back 🙂
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February 14, 2009 7:17pm
grumpyoldhori

Jeez, what a great christian, abortion laws cause bush fires.
http://www.livenews.com.au/Articles/2009/02/11/Bushfires_caused_by_abortion_laws_Pastor_claims

Obviously thus complete and utter fuckwit believes young girls deserved to die because they just might have had an abortion later.
One of the Palin snake handling types, no bloody surprise there.
It may be a bloody good idea for him to stay out of rural Vic. he could find himself tied to a tree watching a back burn arrive.
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February 14, 2009 7:20pm
Inventory2

Now, now goh – don’t judge all Christiams by the utterances of one of them. That would be like me judging all grumpyoldhoris by what you say eh!
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February 14, 2009 7:35pm
Patrick Starr

Greenfly
i didnt say schools dont provide PE – the problem is many parents provide the convenient ‘note’ to excuse little billy bunter from sports.
If something is to be done about what kids eat it is the responsibility of the kids parent. Your bans are admitting some aren’t capable therefore my question (you didnt answer) about replacing of some of the DPB with healthy food vouchers is far more relevant than banning pies in schools?

if PE (and diet) is the key in overcoming obesity why dont the greens get behind kiwi icon sports like rugby etc. Instead you demonise them as an ugly corporate. Don’t you think you’d be better served promoting popular sports – than making it law to eat your ‘friends’ organic salads?
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February 14, 2009 7:37pm
getstaffed

sorry greenfly – it is flys that lack a spine.

my point is perfectly clear: the Greens position in ‘choice’ is insane when viewed in the context of the choices that, according to Green ideals, a 14 year old girl should be allowed to make.

i’m sorry if you find that hard to understand.

schools are not an instrument of the state authorised to install values in the lives of our kids. that responsibility belong to parents. so i’ll guide my kids as to the right things to eat, do, think and you do likewise with yours.

pretty simply really. but i guess you lefthards abhor the prospect of not having total mind-control over everyone else’s kids.
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February 14, 2009 7:56pm
Inventory2

But what has happened Patrick is that the emphasis has been taken off participation in sport. When I were a lad, I played cricket and rugby at school, so had training/practice two or three times a week, we had a sports afternoon once a week, and played on Saturday, as well as phys-ed as part of the curiculum. But we didn’t have a PlayStation or an X-Box, and as kids, we made our own entertainment, rode our bikes, climbed trees, built carts, and generally burned up a helluva lot of energy. Does that happen today? Sadly, no. The PPTA has discouraged secondary teachers from involvement in extra-curicular activities, and our childrens’ lifestyles have become far more sedentary. We are in danger of becoming a nation of spectators rather than participants, reminiscent of the USA where even the big colleges have one basketball team and one football team, and everyone else watches. That can’t be healthy.
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February 14, 2009 8:07pm
big bruv

Patrick

That’s just it, a lot of schools DON’T provide PE or if they do it is not as much as we had when we were at school.

Teachers are just to bloody lazy these days, very few take sports teams and even less of the lazy bastards will give up any of their time for extra circular activities.
A classic example of this is the local high school, all last week while we all just about melted in the heat and humidity the kids did not get the chance to go for a swim at lunch time, you might wonder why, well it seems that not one of the bloody teachers wanted to give up their lunch time (or part of it) to supervise.

We always hear how overworked and stressed teachers are these days, personally I think it is a crock of shit, it is no coincidence that since the feminazi element drove most of the male teachers out of the profession the standards and dedication levels have dropped away,
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February 14, 2009 8:14pm
wikiriwhis business

“green schooling was surreptitiously introduced years ago when teachers began espousing benign environmental distractions like “Earth Day.”

Baiter,,

Of course all this is true, but at he other end of the tunnel I just found out the Reagans took off solar panels from the White House and the PV industry was decimated.

What kind of vision was that??
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February 14, 2009 8:21pm
wikiriwhis business

Well,

it’s Valentines day and my morning started off brilliantly.

Afternoon watched a wonderful live production of ‘Pride and Prejudice’ that did great justice to the author. (Watch out for an up and coming young starlet named Keagan Fransh from Timaru) The dance scenes, electricity and chemistry drew you completely into the story. Cast exemplary. Choreography stunning for a small production. Witticisms may draw you back.

Overall, inspired my author streak.

But I guess Jane Austen would do that!
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February 14, 2009 8:29pm
greenfly

patrick starr – tell me this isn’t shooting yourself in the foot!
“the problem is many parents provide the convenient ‘note’ to excuse little billy bunter from sports.
If something is to be done about what kids eat it is the responsibility of the kids parent. ”
You do see your own contradiction, don’t you?
You and getstaffed seem to arguing that schools should be responsible for more p.e. but not less junk food!
Parents should decide, you say. In other words, lay down the law here, but not there! Nice.
Inventory2 says;
“The PPTA has discouraged secondary teachers from involvement in extra-curicular activities, and our childrens’ lifestyles have become far more sedentary”
but you all seem to argue that it is the parents responsibility to ensure their kids have these things (good food, good exercise) You chop and change as it suits you.
Big Bruv’s assertion that dedication and standards have dropped since women became more numerous in the teaching profession is a crock from a mysanthropist.
Getstaffed: How do you reconcile this,
“schools are not an instrument of the state authorised to install values in the lives of our kids.”
with Tolley’s $3000 fine for truancy? State sanctioned value, that ‘compulsory attendence” thing, or do you have another way of looking at it. Flies, as you so rightly point out, are without vertabra, but have annoying perserverence.
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February 14, 2009 8:42pm
Patrick Starr

Bruv /Inventory
Maybe it’s a school to school thing but both my youngest kids get both PE and team sports . One high school and one intermediate). My daughter is always asking for a ‘note’ because that’s what half the kids parents do.
I’ve gotta say BB I’m still a bit annoyed over that wanker AG’s comment on Sth Auckland. I was involved in a well known rugby club down there and saw first hand how many of the little brown boys turned up for training, never brought anything – and no parents on game days either. The amount of times I stuck my hand in my pocket for their $2 a head for the after game fish n chips (no salads there Greenfly). Many of these kids in the 8 – 10 years grades were really keen to play, but absolutely no parental support. I remember asking one kid why he was wearing jeans – where were his shorts? He said he didn’t know cause his mum didn’t come home the night before (That’s how they end up like that little shit Pihema Cameron)

Greenfly – “You do see your own contradiction, don’t you?” shit – i hope you didnt climax ?? – because Im about to burst your bubble……..
you overlooked one key word

“IF” something is to be done…. meaning its none of the Greens business anyway, which leads me to the last question that you have AGAIN avoided:

“Your bans are admitting some aren’t capable therefore my question (you didnt answer) about replacing of some of the DPB with healthy food vouchers is far more relevant than banning pies in schools?”

Please answer the question Greenfly
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February 14, 2009 8:51pm
adam2314

grumpyoldhori (629) Vote: 1 0 Says:
February 14th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Does the USA NEED to have trade from other countries ?
Other than oil and say coffee I cannot think of an item the the USA cannot supply itself .

STEEL… A basic of todays life.

The US has to import many of the addatives..
As do nearly all countries..
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February 14, 2009 9:01pm
big bruv

Jesus Greenfly, you don’t bother with little things like facts do you?

Now I know you Green nutbars are not fond of the truth (hence your use of climate change to usher in your own version of communism) but please show me where I said “dedication and standards have dropped since women became more numerous in the teaching profession”.

Why do you insist on smearing everybody and name calling when you are losing an argument?

I blamed the piss poor teaching standards on the hairy legged feminists, I do not and never would say that ALL female teachers are like that, the problem is (as you well know) that the feminist lot have grabbed the reigns of power, they rule the roost and as such men are to be driven from the profession.
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February 14, 2009 9:08pm
greenfly

Patrick – I’m not looking to gloat, just unravel a Gordian knot. Happy to have a shot at your question. Seems like a good idea, but how can you say that ‘the parents should decide’ on these matters and then say in the same breath,
“replacing of some of the DPB with healthy food vouchers ”
Aren’t you taking away those parents rights to spend their DPB as they wish? You are contradicting yourself, aren’t you?
Have a go at answering my questions (if you choose to).
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February 14, 2009 9:11pm
greenfly

Big Bruv said: “it is no coincidence that since the feminazi element drove most of the male teachers out of the profession the standards and dedication levels have dropped away”.
That’s how I read it BB. So now you say…standards haven’t dropped? The greater numbers of women in teaching (% wise) hasn’t resulted in dropping standards?
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February 14, 2009 9:14pm
big bruv

Of course they have bloody dropped, if you drive away men you drive away those who are traditionally interested in sport.

You know as well as I do that the feminist movement targeted the teaching profession way back in the early 70’s, they correctly identified that as the best way to alter the mindsets of young people and the best way to get their sick message through to the next generation.

Over the years we have seen standards drop away because the feminists have permeated every level of the profession, they wield the power and they have just about succeeded in eliminating men from positions of influence.

Of course the ultimate goal of these hairy legged dykes is the break down of the traditional family unit, what ever you think about them you have to applaud how far they have come and how they have managed to con not only the men but non feminist woman as well.
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February 14, 2009 9:24pm
Patrick Starr

Greenfly – you shouldn’t gloat for not understanding an issue. (but hey – you are a greenie)
On one hand the Greens say the state should decide what’s best for ‘all’ children regardless of their physical condition, or proper parenting, so I’m interested to know if the Greens therefore believe that these controls, or state dietary conditions should extend to the solo parented (DPB) house where children are most vulnerable, (as opposed to just the schools)

Then the second part of the question (that you also failed to answer) was why are the Greens so opposed to sports, like rugby where regular physical exercise will reduce any dietary liability
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February 14, 2009 9:25pm
big bruv

Greenfly

I often hear screams from the likes of Comrade Bradford along the lines of “but what about the kids, they are the ones suffering”..
Yet you seem to be suggesting that it is fine for some drug fucked wreck of a DPB bludger to be spending the money we give them as THEY see fit.

Nah, give he bastards vouchers, if they want money they can get a bloody job like the rest of us.
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February 14, 2009 9:27pm
adam2314

Sorry Grumpyoldhori.

There is so much that is needing reply to.

Yours was the closest :-)).

Appreciate many of your posts..

The ” Credit Crisis ” as they call it, is deepening and is not going to go away IMHO.
With laughable remedies being produced by the perpertrators of the whole problem.

A problem that was caused by loose money.. ” Throw more PRINTED money at it ” Ha !!!..

Check out Harry Makopolos sworn statement to the Congress Committee. Re. Bernie Madoff..

Corruption from the top is alive and kicking..

Greenfly..

Is the Sheriff of Nottingham’s ( Winteringham ) men going to accept your ORGANIC carrots for their TAXES.. on these acres that you will own ??..

I think your eyes will be watering ..

GOLD IS GOOD..
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February 14, 2009 9:29pm
big bruv

Patrick

“Then the second part of the question (that you also failed to answer) was why are the Greens so opposed to sports, like rugby where regular physical exercise will reduce any dietary liability”

That is an easy one to answer, but to be fair it is not only the Greens who are against sport and physical exercise.

If you have physical contests in schools Patrick is is highly likely that the boys are going to win, this is not good in the eyes of the feminists, we cannot have subliminal messages being sent out to the boys and girls that boys may be better (through their physical make up) at some things, nor can we remind the boys and girls that men are by and large faster and stronger.

Far better to remove those elements from the days “education” lest it put doubts in the minds of some of the girls.

This is why we no longer have winners and losers when it comes to sports days at schools, this is why the “modern” approach is to not keep score, we simply cannot allow our girls to see themselves as being inferior to the boys on any level at all.
It is the same with teaching methods, girls do far better when you assess their work over a year, boys do better at exams, so what do the hairy legged dykes do who rune education in NZ…they set the whole curriculum up to suit girls.

What is really scary is that we have a whole generation of boys (now young men) who have been brainwashed by these fucking maggots, what is even scarier is that it will take at least 25 years to rid the system of their poison and I doubt that the Govt. has the interest in doing anything about it.
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February 14, 2009 9:45pm
Inventory2

greenfly said “Aren’t you taking away those parents rights to spend their DPB as they wish?”

greenfly – social welfare benefits aren’t a “right” – they are the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff for people who are unable to support themselves. That’s the theory anyway. Unfortunately, we have become so good at chucking benefits at every problem, we have created a generation that now sees support from the state as its God-given right.

I have worked for nigh on 35 years. I have NEVER received a benefit. Am I wrong then to feel pissed off when I see a generation which is happy to spend MY money to support its lifestyle – to buy booze, lotto tickets, dope etc? I don’t think so. Entitleitis is the biggest disease/epidemic that this country faces.
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February 14, 2009 9:47pm
greenfly

adam2314 – if you sell them they’re gold (Egmont, that is – carrot joke, quite feeble)!

Bruv says: let the parents choose! (but not all parents, only the ones he deems fit)
btw. in answer to your question: “Why do you insist on smearing everybody and name calling when you are losing an argument?”
I can only paste this from your same comment, “Now I know you Green nutbars are not fond of the truth” – ya’ gotta smile, eh!
Patrick – in the home the parents rule. In a school the teachers (and Administration) are loco parentis .
I guess Greens would credit parents with the responsibility to decide what happens at home. At school, there are others with parental responsibility. Greens see that. You, apparently, do not. Curious. I find it curious also, the way you are confident that children at the tuckshop counter will do as their parents have instructed from home re. choices. have you no experience of children at all? .
You are a great asker of questions and a great avoider of answering them!
Your second question about ‘Greens hating rugby’ or whatever, WTF! Can you direct me to evidence to support that claim or is that just one that you imagined!
There! I’ve at least addressed your two questions. Will you have a go at mine? I’m not very hopeful, I have to say and it’s getting late 🙂
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February 14, 2009 10:01pm
greenfly

Inventory2 – you are playing with words to suit your own prejudice. I talked about the right to spend their money, not the right to receive it. Yours is a disingenuous reply. Try again, straight this time.
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February 14, 2009 10:03pm
big bruv

“Bruv says: let the parents choose! (but not all parents, only the ones he deems fit)”

Damn right!

It’s my money these people are spending, if they are low life then they do not get to choose.
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February 14, 2009 10:05pm
greenfly

How do you reconcile this,
“schools are not an instrument of the state authorised to install values in the lives of our kids.”
with Tolley’s $3000 fine for truancy? State sanctioned value, that ‘compulsory attendence” thing, or do you have another way of looking at it?

getstaffed? Inventory2? Big Bruv? Patrick?
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February 14, 2009 10:08pm
greenfly

Ho hum. Moenga.
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February 14, 2009 10:12pm
Patrick Starr

Greenfly There is so much wrong and hypocritical with your theories its hard to know where to start – One of the problems is that you are trying to regulate every childs diet because one or two of them are fat. Even if it was your business you’re not even prepared to look at how you can compensate for a high calorie intake, your just trying to regulate what they ALL eat !
Notwithstanding that fact I am just as concerned with your theory that all parents should ‘butt out’ when the child is in school. Well, I’m afraid not. I will have the final say in what my child learns or does in school

“I guess Greens would credit parents with the responsibility to decide what happens at home”, and for the DPB parent who is more likely to be spending my taxes to buy the crap she feeds that minority of fat unhealthy kids you want us all to turn a blind eye.

“Patrick – in the home the parents rule”
pffft, except how strong a shower the kids can have or how bright the light can be in their bedrooms

Hate rugby? – not just rugby (“kiwi icon sports like rugby etc”) – any sport with commercial sponsorship. I believe Tennis was the latest target of Locke and your friend Minto.
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February 14, 2009 10:38pm
Patrick Starr

Greenfly – Let me get this right

we should let them smoke dope and take party pills
we shouldn’t discipline them,
we should not force them to go to school……..
but if they choose to go to school we should force them to eat organic salads when they are there

okaayyyy then…………

ummm……Is this a strategy to dumb down future generations to the extent they’ll all vote Greens?
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February 14, 2009 10:49pm
getstaffed

greenfly – please don’t take up defending the innocent. Your lines of argument would see the poor sods behind bars in no time.

Anyhow, convince me that school should be optional (heh, optional/choice – not concepts that are big in the Greens playbook) then we can debate the relative merits of attendance choice and pie consumption choice. Until then go and have a look at an apple and an orange… and see if you can spot any differences.
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February 14, 2009 10:56pm
JimBWarrior

This tread exposes the damage the far left and Right do to any nation.

I note NOBODY has picked up on the point that BROKEN homes have played a major part in several of the characters discussed above.

Broken homes are not excuses to act criminally or in anyway abusive toward our follow man.

However broken homes do affect one most disastrously – BOTH Children and Adults.

The prison and welfare are evidence – BOTH staff and clients

So what causes broken homes?

NZ Govt FAMILY Law and Social Policy and those administer it.

Be they Blindly Obedient Bureaucrats, Judges with Anti-FAMILY desires to fill their own pockets, or their hirelings.

Working with damaged FAMILIES would soon affect the arrogance displayed above.

For some insight into how to be helpful;

Go http://ration-shed-4-tier-foodbank.blogspot.com

Onward – Jim
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February 15, 2009 1:06am
greenfly

Well Patrick, I have to say, I’m dissapointed. If this is your summation of what I was proposing:

Greenfly – Let me get this right

we should let them smoke dope and take party pills
we shouldn’t discipline them,
we should not force them to go to school……..
but if they choose to go to school we should force them to eat organic salads when they are there

okaayyyy then…………

ummm……Is this a strategy to dumb down future generations to the extent they’ll all vote Greens?

then reason is lost and so is the argument. My only hope (and it’s a faint one) is that some ‘lurker’pricked up their ears and thought, “hmmm…maybe…could be …. ” but clearly, that was not a thought that flitted by you 🙂
Guess that reduces us to flinging pointless slights at each other, which surely will make you happy Mr Patrick Starr.
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February 15, 2009 7:21am
greenfly

getstaffed – nice sideways slide but no answer. I was encouraged though, that you used ‘oranges and apples’ to illustrate your response. Shows me that the Greens ‘Healthy Food’ programme has entered your subconscious 🙂 I’m similarly dissapointed (see above) that you couldn’t address the question.
Had to laugh at the way you (all of you for that matter) paint with such a broad brush. optional/choice
Are you over the age of 18? Would you like to be able to choose to smoke mariajuana, or would you like the State to tell you you can’t. Hmmm, Mr Staffed? Choice! It’s soooo important to you (isn’t it???) Disclaimer: I’m not a smoker.
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February 15, 2009 7:30am
getstaffed

greenfly – you might get answers if you asked rational, considered questions and debated thereafter. The bottom line for me, as I have said previously, is that it’s not the state schools role to teach values to my kids. That must grate for socialist control-freaks. Tough.

Your random chime in with a comment on school being compulsory (implying that denying attendance choice is just like and banning pies) telegraphs, to me at least, that you lack the ability to reason sensibly.
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February 15, 2009 8:38am
Inventory2

greenfly said “Inventory2 – you are playing with words to suit your own prejudice. I talked about the right to spend their money, not the right to receive it. Yours is a disingenuous reply. Try again, straight this time.”

Bollocks greenfly. I said that benefits were NOT a right, but I accept that society must look after those who can’t otherwise support themselves. That doesn’t mean that everyone who doesn’t want to work should be entitled to a benefit, but that’s where we are. But with that right comes a responsibility to spend it on the essentals for which it is intended – food, clothing, housing, transport. Only when the essentials have been covered should there be any discretionary spending. Take Pihema Cameron’s 14 yo cousin for example – dropped out of school, and spends her days getting drunk and stoned. I resent supporting that lifestyle. I thought that as a supposedly responsible steward of the planet and its resources, you would too.

Unfortunately, we are only teaching our young one half of the equation – their rights. Teaching responsibility seems to have become unfashionable.
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February 15, 2009 8:50am
greenfly

State schools shouldn’t teach values. Got it. No mention is to be made by teachers of: fairness, honesty, generosity – am I on the right track, getstaffed?
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February 15, 2009 8:51am
greenfly

Inventory2 – then you would or wouldn’t allow beneficiaries to decide for themselves how the money they receive is spent?
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February 15, 2009 8:53am
getstaffed

greenfly – correct. Values are caught, not taught. If those values are evident in the teachers, support staff, other parents etc then excellent.

The state does not have the market cornered on the definition of fairness, honesty or generosity. If it did, schools would be teaching that it’s fair to demonize a small religious sect, honest to sign paintings that one did not paint, and that accepting generosity from foreign billionaires while railing against the influence of wealth was perfectly ok. A few NZers might not feel that those state-sanctioned values are ones that we’d want our kids being fed at school. I’m sure they’d rather they had a pie.
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February 15, 2009 9:08am
getstaffed

IV2 – greenfly isn’t interested in debate. he/she is a troll who would be out of the first heats at the VLWC troll olympics.
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February 15, 2009 9:14am
Inventory2

Quite so getstaffed – and I’ll bet that unlike you or I, he/.she has never put their money where there mouth is and run their own business.

And greenfly, I personally believe that if MSD has evidence that benefits aren’t being spent appropriately, the benefit should be suspended. It is NOT the role of the state to allow people to live the life of Reilly at the taxpayer’s expense.
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February 15, 2009 9:19am
Inventory2

JimBWarrior said “This tread exposes the damage the far left and Right do to any nation.

I note NOBODY has picked up on the point that BROKEN homes have played a major part in several of the characters discussed above.”

Jim – I actually made this point some time ago:

“remembering back to my own formative years of the 1960’s-70’s, mothers who worked were by far in the minority. Wages weren’t high, but families seemed to want for not much. And the overwhelming majority of families had both a mother and a father.”
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February 15, 2009 9:24am
PhilBest

Reid, YOU ARE ONTO IT regarding Bill Clinton’s disastrous weakening of the USA’s military advantage over China, the loss of secrets, etc.

One of my biggest fears about Obama is that that will be part of his game too.

Regarding the US Auto Industry, there do happen to be Toyota and Honda and Nissan factories in the USA that are NOT in trouble. Saving GM and Ford and Chrysler will have to involve putting a stop to the “privelege”, at the expense of everyone else in the USA, inherent in having a job and a pension at those organisations. A bankruptcy sale to, say, Hyundai, could be the quickest way.
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February 15, 2009 9:48am
greenfly

Inventory2 – you lose the bet (how much did you wager? I’d be happy to be the recipient, given that I was the subject of your conjecture) I do have a business of my own, a partnership with my son, and have ‘put my money where my mouth is’. I am also and employer (5 staff) and an employee of the State. I have a small contracting business also (just me this time). I’ve been in a number of other wage/salary earning positions over time and so have a bit of an idea of things. (Just to add to the mix of things you can attack me on 🙂
getstaffed – you are talking about the curriculum. Values are taught throughout the school day by teachers, as you note. I hope you are not trying to equate the sale of food at the canteen with the curriculum? Are you?
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February 15, 2009 10:22am
greenfly

getstaffed said:
“The state does not have the market cornered on the definition of fairness, honesty or generosity. If it did, schools would be teaching that it’s fair to demonize a small religious sect, honest to sign paintings that one did not paint, and that accepting generosity from foreign billionaires while railing against the influence of wealth was perfectly ok”

as they are not, you’d concede that the Labour government wasn’t ‘bending the minds of our children’ in the way so many posters here claim?
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February 15, 2009 10:24am
expat

>>reid (2040) Vote: 6 1 Says:
February 14th, 2009 at 9:13 am

What do you think of this prediction from Gerald Celente: 2009 will bring the worst economic collapse ever.

This guy is extremely astute. He predicted sub-prime and many other trends.
—————————————————————————————————————————

The guy makes sense doesn’t he.
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February 15, 2009 10:33am
grumpyoldhori

Country or Corporate loyalty ?
Which comes first ?
Damn strange that some in the states are still arguing that what banks etc do is good for the USA even as they lose billions.
Have to wonder if those at the top of companies ever ask, is this good for the USA in shipping all the jobs in industry to China.
Or does their loyalty to their corporation override any loyalty to their country ?

Same as here, we have companies who throw jobs overseas then wonder why the people they made redundent cannot afford to buy their goods or services.
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February 15, 2009 10:43am
cha

Maureen Dowd, Which of the potentially $2 or $3 trillion in toxic assets will the taxpayers buy and what will we pay for them?

from
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February 15, 2009 11:22am
Portia

Here’s a good account of how regulators lost control of the banking and financial sector:
http://www.villagevoice.com/content/printVersion/850296
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February 15, 2009 11:31am
Portia

And while we’ve been focusing on the state of the US economy, let’s not forget just how dire the situation is in the UK and Europe too.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article5728797.ece

Lloyds’ Bank has just disclosed $10b of unexpected losses in HBOS, which it bought with govt assistance, just a few months ago. The Govt’s shares are now worth less than half what they paid for, and it’s believed that pretty much all the bailout money has disappeared into a black hole. There is also some talk of countries deserting the Euro.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/columnists/article5729034.ece
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February 15, 2009 11:51am
reid

Or does their loyalty to their corporation override any loyalty to their country ?

IMO their loyalty is directed firstly to themselves via their performance bonuses and secondly to their shareholders, grumpy. The company they’re running comes third, the employees fourth and their country, fifth.

Remember too that it’s not just the manufacturing operations they’ve been offshoring, it’s project work esp in IT that’s gone as well. India has made a whole industry out of it.

It’s part of the whole globalisation movement and determining whether on balance, that’s a good thing or a bad thing is not an easy question. I tend toward Clinton’s view he expressed on Commanding Heights, which is that you can’t stop it, so the question becomes, how do we best deal with it?

Personally for NZ, I’d cast around the world for successful nation states comparable in either size and/or having specific industry sectors that we either already have or want to develop, and look at what they’re doing and emulate them. I thik wheel re-invention is widespread and completely wasteful. Examples like Singapore (Finance, Education), Brunei (Oil, because we have the Great South Basin), Switzerland (Reputation), Ireland (Software, Biotech), Malaysia (Offshoring), Russia (very strong military) spring to mind.

One things for sure, to deal with globalisation, like any corporation, we need to become completely focused on specific strategies and gear our education and science and industry toward exploiting them. That’s how Ireland did it and we need to use that strategy. The shotgun approach does not work.
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February 15, 2009 11:51am
Redbaiter

Wow, good links to all really impressive stuff Portia, but I’m concerned that you don’t seem to refer to the globally recognised font of knowlege on all things regarding the collapsing economy, whoar.co.nz.

Sure you’re getting the full and complete picture?
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February 15, 2009 12:28pm
Redbaiter

“That’s how Ireland did it and we need to use that strategy.”

A mainstream media myth.
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February 15, 2009 12:38pm
Patrick Starr

“If this is your summation of what I was proposing:”

well you see greenfly, the problem is what you are proposing is so obscure.- You claim the objective is you don’t want kids to get fat?

why therefore do you chose such an illogical manner to achieve that when the easier alternatives are so obvious. It’s these policies that make me suspicious, The Greens usually have ulterior motives with all of them. You guys don’t do anything unless there is a sting in the tail for someone you dont like. Then you have the cheek to claim the Nats have secret agendas!!!!

Your unwillingness to answer perfectly reasonable questions results in “flinging pointless slights at each other”
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February 15, 2009 12:41pm
greenfly

Patrick – odd! I think that I am adressing every question you ask, yet you think I’m not! Really puzzling! Your suspicions re the Greens seems odd as well – do you have aa paranoid personality? I’m not the Green Party and have thoughts of my own. I answer as best I can and try to keep to the topic. Are you certain you are seeing things clearly?
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February 15, 2009 1:01pm
Patrick Starr

greenfly – If I’m wrong to be suspicious of the greens policies, and there is no ulterior motive, then they are just plain dumb policies.

if you guys are trying to promote a carrot why do you always choose the stick?
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February 15, 2009 1:34pm
grumpyoldhori

Reid you posted (It’s part of the whole globalisation movement and determining whether on balance, that’s a good thing or a bad thing is not an easy question. I tend toward Clinton’s view he expressed on Commanding Heights, which is that you can’t stop it, so the question becomes, how do we best deal with it?)

Can not stop it, did Clinton even bloody try ?
Suggestion, tell any IT company in NZ that if they have a policy of shipping jobs offshore, no more taxpayer paid work will go their way.
Fuck the Indians, we owe them nothing.
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February 15, 2009 1:44pm
Redbaiter

“I’m not the Green Party and have thoughts of my own.”

Haha. That’s chronically incorrect. You were a blank slate. A moron, and the left wrote their stupid ideas upon that slate and you’ve never had the intelligence to seek out anything else. You preach and sermonize endlessly about diversity, but you don’t ever apply that concept to political ideas. Stuck in the endless rut of leftism, you’ll never escape that destructive ideology. Your mind won’t permit it.

Greenblowfly whine on

“but you’re just the same from a right wing perspective”

Greenblowfly whine off

Shut the fuck up. There isn’t a right winger here who hasn’t at one time in their life been ensnared by leftism. The difference is that unlike yourself, they had the required level of intelligence to allow a more mature perspective to develop, and they moved on. You’ve never looked at it from both sides, and if the sad stunted and narcissistic personality you portray here is anything to go by, you never will.
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February 15, 2009 1:50pm
greenfly

Redbaiter – I’ve moved you! Something in what I’ve said has stirred the goodness deep down within you, that goodness that’s been buried for so long. Don’t bother to heap praise upon me for raising you up – it’s what I do out of love for my fellow man. I cherish your comments and feel driven to continue our on-line discussion as a path toward your eventual emancipation from the chains of ignorance that once bound you.
Yours in brotherhood
greenfly
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February 15, 2009 2:36pm
Redbaiter

“Redbaiter – I’ve moved you!”

As all trolls do. They move me to wish they would fuck off with their prolific but infantile drivel.
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February 15, 2009 3:31pm
reid

“That’s how Ireland did it and we need to use that strategy.”

A mainstream media myth.

No it’s not, RB. I went to a lecture in Auckland in 2000 by one of the architects of the Irish reforms and I get all my information on it from him.

So there.
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February 15, 2009 3:35pm
Redbaiter

Reid, your sources of information are your main problem.
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February 15, 2009 3:37pm
reid

Can not stop it [globalisation], did Clinton even bloody try ?

Of course he didn’t try, grumpy.

Clinton’s one of the bloody globalists himself. Just like Bush 41, Bush 43, the whole bloody lot of them. That’s one reason why I keep saying they’re all a bunch of pricks no matter what political side they claim to represent.
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February 15, 2009 3:38pm
reid

Reid, your sources of information are your main problem.

How so, RB. I woulda thought one the architects who designed the strategy that was then implemented which then turned Ireland into the largest software exporter in the world, bigger even than the US, at the time he gave the lecture, would have been a reasonably reliable source?
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February 15, 2009 3:40pm
PhilBest

Reid, and Portia, the missing information in what you are saying, is the presence of a housing bubble, one of the chief culprits in any economy in trouble today. Ireland is indeed a good example of tax policy, etc, BUT they have had one of the worst housing bubbles in the world along with NZ. Countries that have had too much government and too high taxes and low economic growth; AND a housing bubble, are the most stuffed. A country like Ireland that has had the housing bubble but not the other, are not quite as stuffed. A country like the Czech Republic, that has had neither, is only stuffed in so far as offshore events affect them. Another plus, is if your banks did not overstretch themselves and did not invest in shonky securities
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February 15, 2009 3:43pm
PhilBest

By the way, two excellent columns in the HOS.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10556765&pnum=0

Bill Ralston: “Labour Lucky To Have Lost”

(Very like what I have said several times…..)

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10556754&pnum=0

Deborah Coddington: “Give Disabled Integrity; End Benefit Rort”

(Comment on “Invalid Beneficiary” Victoria Stevens, who needed 4 cops to subdue her)
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February 15, 2009 3:47pm
Redbaiter

Reid-

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6790

and be careful withthe assumption that software was actually exported. There was a paper trail, that’s all.
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February 15, 2009 3:55pm
reid

Phil, I agree re: the bubble, I wasn’t suggesting we look at everything Ireland’s done, just the bits about focusing like a laser on carefully selected growth industries and then gearing up their education and manufacturing and science sectors to exploit those. They also had an interesting idea about low-tax areas which they offered to multinationals who wanted to setup R&D or manufacturing plants and they used that to get them to set those areas up in specific areas of the country that could use that growth.

Some people would probably complain that this wasn’t egalitarian because only specific areas benefited from the policy but fuck em. It really worked.

Since 2000 the Celtic Tiger’s come off the boil a bit due to multiple factors, what I’m talking about specifically is adopting the tactics they used in the early days.

In previous debates people have said they worked because they have the EU on their backdoor. My response is, so what? Adopting their tactics here is better than doing nothing, because that’s all we’re doing right now.
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February 15, 2009 3:56pm
reid

Sure RB. My general point is, Ireland’s strategy worked, the whole country hummed. It did, no denying it.

So let’s examine what they did and emulate it: not the bad bits, the good bits. There were plenty of good bits that we’re not doing now, when we could be doing them, right here, right now. It’s better than doing nothing.
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February 15, 2009 3:59pm
PhilBest

Portia (115) Vote: Add rating 2 Subtract rating 0 Says:
February 15th, 2009 at 11:51 am

“And while we’ve been focusing on the state of the US economy, let’s not forget just how dire the situation is in the UK and Europe too…..”

Thanks for that link. Portia, note that Northern Rock fell over before anything went tits up on Wall Street, and so did lots of our finance companies. The idea that all the world’s problems are just spun off from the US crash, is nonsense. The underlying causes of all our crashes are due to the same factors, and the timeline on which each economy started to go merely varied by a few months. The uncertainty that was sown as the US crashed certainly did not help, but note that both NZ and the UK were already heading down without any help from the USA.
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February 15, 2009 4:21pm
philu

“..This guy is extremely astute. He predicted sub-prime and many other trends..”

is that me you are talking about..?..expat..?

..(y’know.!..predicting a sub-prime-driven economic collapse..?

..since ..oh..!..about august 2006..eh..?

b.t.w..a fact that may have slipped your mind..and may chill the blood..

..is that the sub-prime crisis will not peak untill in late 2009..

.that’s cos’ that’s when a giganormous tranche of them ‘come due for renewal’..

..oo-err..!

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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February 15, 2009 4:34pm
Manolo

“..This guy is extremely astute. He predicted sub-prime and many other trends..”
is that me you are talking about..?..expat..?

Don’t be ridiculous Whoar.

There are only two events you, the viceroy of bludgers, are able to predict:
1) Where and when to collect your dole cheque from WINZ;
2) The time your next cooking batch will be ready for sale.
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February 15, 2009 4:39pm
dad4justice

Brilliant Manolo.
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February 15, 2009 4:42pm

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