General Debate 2 January 2009

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billyborker

Another bunch of holidays has passed, another bunch in which I walked past many dining establishments that proudly proclaimed their inability to run a business, in search of one of the few that can, and does, run its business properly.

15% surcharge their signs say. We don’t know how to price, is the subtext.

Why is it only the hospitality industry that is so ill organised that it must charge more on the very days when people have more time to spend in their establishments? My petrol and bread cost no more on those days, so why should my beer or pizza?

And how did they all magically arrive at the same 15% figure?

Two years ago I was inadvertantly in a restaurant that had the surcharge. I refused to pay, as I was not informed of the surcharge in advance. The manager said there had been signs on the doors, but “someone” had removed them. I said, “TUFF!” He pointed to signs taped flat to the bar. I responded that his waiter met us at the door and escorted us to a table, we had not been to the bar all night.

The manager relented, but, instead of recalculating the bill minus surcharge, he simply deducted 15% from the total, thus proving my entry point, these people can’t run a business.

[DPF: Actually you are the one who does not know how to price. Restaurants have correctly calculated that the extra staff wages means they will make a loss if they open at normal rates, So they charge a surcharge to make it worthwhile to open. You can choose not to dine there if you wish, but that have correctly priced. Labour makes up a bigger component of your costs in a reastaurant than it does in say a bookstore, which is why bookstores can open profitably with no surcharge]
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January 2, 2009 9:32am
MT_Tinman

You are correct billy, many can’t.

I can assure you that if they could the “surcharge” would in fact be much higher due the disgusting law that says employees voluntarily working on certain arbitrarily selected days of the year must be paid excessive amounts for that (voluntary remember – again by law) work.
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January 2, 2009 9:48am
billyborker

Voluntary? When a worker is at the lower end of the food chain, there’s not much voluntary about it. Many, if not most, hospitality workers are casuals; refuse a shift and you probably won’t get any more.

But please do enlighten me, how much should the surcharge be? Why should it be that amount? And why is it that only hospitality operators are so bad at pricing?

[DPF: They’re not. See my reply above.]
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January 2, 2009 9:53am
MT_Tinman

A “worker” being at the lower end of the food chain is voluntary in itself.

Your ridiculous assertion that for a casual worker refusing a shift (and giving satisfactory notice of their intention to do so) will be penalised shows you have no idea of the real world. I can assure you that even prior to the Labour extortion law there was never a problem getting volunteers for those arbitrarily selected days.

As for you question as to why only hospitality charge for “holidays”, did you ever need to get a mechanic, sparky, plumber, doctor, dentist or any other person not wanting to work on such a day to do emergency work for you?
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January 2, 2009 10:05am
billyborker

hospitality providers are in the same category as other employers who open for trade on a stat day. Supermarkets, petrol stations, liquor stores, cinemas, bookshops, and all manner of retailers trade on these days and not one of them sees the need to add 15% to their charges. Why is it only hospitality providers who are so poor at running their businesses? Why are they the only operators who deem it necessary to levy an additional charge?

Your claim about emergency work charges is a false ananlogy as none of these people providers are open for business in the way a restaurant is. Or are you saying that they only open for emergency diners?

[DPF: AGain you misst the point. In restaurants staff costs are a much higher proportion of the business]
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January 2, 2009 10:17am
PhilBest

“Fatnuts” asked me for some links a few days ago and I didn’t get around to it till too late on that thread.

The U.N. is a haven of the most blatant kind of anti-Israel bias. What planet do you live on, if you think that is not the case?

http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.1359197/k.6748/UN_Israel__AntiSemitism.htm

Regarding the BBC’s anti-Israel bias, which is also a “given” in the real world, Google “Balen Report”; here is a link to the Wikipedia on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balen_Report
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January 2, 2009 10:20am
Brian Smaller

Someone asked for “proof” that Hamas was using people as human shields. They disbelieved any report that said that they would do such a thing. They are, after all, peaceful people merely struggling for their self-determination. This might change your mind.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=74e_1230826559
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January 2, 2009 10:44am
expat

Bork bork bork – were you so tight you couldn’t support the workers who had to slave on a public holiday bringing you something you imagine is a ‘classy feed’?

You tight arse.
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January 2, 2009 10:50am
Glutaemus Maximus

Billy Borker, your Dining Experience Story and query/question over maths gives us all the clues we need as to what sort of citizen you are, and the beer and pizza option serves to underline that.

Bet you never tip?
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January 2, 2009 10:53am
Ryan Sproull

Someone asked for “proof” that Hamas was using people as human shields.

It’s possible you’re referring to me. I asked for a reference, and Whaleoil provided one.
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January 2, 2009 11:02am
billyborker

GM, if you refer to the 15% surcharge being offset by 15% discount, I used that to highlight the mathematical ignorance of the manager. To keep it simple for you a 15% surcharge on a $100 bill is $15. Take a 15% discount from $115, that is $17.25, a fact that escaped the manager of that establishment.

And no, I don’t tip. Tipping as an insidious practice that is designed to reduce the need for employers to pay a decent wage. Once again, why is it only in hospitallity that tipping is expected? Do you tip, GM? And does that extend to your mechanic and doctor? Do you tip your lawyer? Seems you want waiters to be treated as slaves, forced in to begging for wages.
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January 2, 2009 11:14am
PhilBest

WhaleOil provided three….!

Ryan, note those sources where WhaleOil gets his information. It is possible to find out the truth a lot of the time in spite of the Lefty stranglehold on the MSM. GO, “new media”.
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January 2, 2009 11:15am
Glutaemus Maximus

Borker, your response is as expected.

Bet you are unable to get a table in a great Restaurant when it is really busy.

Unable to get the order in before the big Group about to organise the Shipping Order.

Unable to get the best Table in the House, with the most attentive Staff.

Unable to have the best reccomendation of Dish of the Day or Specials.

Unable to get the sensible wine reccomendation.

My Family gets all the benefits, Wonder Why?

You are a sour, clever prat with no class.

I don’t tip because it enslaves the underclass.

Maybe if you and the likes of you did, then the enslavement would end?

Has it ever occurred to you that the Hospitality Industry makes very good money when done properly?
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January 2, 2009 11:46am
Ryan Sproull

I don’t know if tipping’s all that bad. I only tip when the service has been outstanding, and I see it as paying more for a more valuable good/service, and making sure the money for the extra value goes straight to the person who added it.
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January 2, 2009 11:57am
cha

#PhilBest
I posted this on the Bigot Alert thread. It looks to be a collection of Palestinian propaganda and probably put online as a counter to the IAF utube channel. lPhotos and videos of the Israel/Palestinian shitfight
And a LGF post with more IAF videos.
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January 2, 2009 12:01pm
Sonny Blount

Billyborker. Hospitality is very labour intensive, typically operating a labour cost of about 20% – 40% of turnover. Public holidays cost 250% of normal wages (Time worked paid at time and a half plus a day in lieu), so the additional cost of production is 30% – 60% of turnover. A 15% surcharge can put a plug in some of the bleeding cafes and restaurants experience on public holidays if there is a significant increase in customers. Working on these days is a lolly scramble for workers who often don’t even take all of their 4 weeks annual leave. But it is purely a marketing/charity exercise for the owners to remain open.
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January 2, 2009 12:13pm
PhilBest

Thanks for that, cha. On balance, those videos are pretty damning of Hamas and the BBC and the other anti-Israel western MSM.

HonestReporting.Com has a “Primer” on this latest round of Israel At War.

http://www.honestreporting.com/a/gaza2008primer.html

If you don’t know about them, they are well worth a regular look, doing regular analyses of major MSM organisations coverage and providing counterbalance and suggestions for protests to those MSM organisations.
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January 2, 2009 12:30pm
reid

Here’s another video, aposite in respect of the last two posts: a segment from McNamara’s excellent Fog of War – Lesson #5 – Proportionality.
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January 2, 2009 12:36pm
Pascal

Ryan Sproull:

I don’t know if tipping’s all that bad. I only tip when the service has been outstanding, and I see it as paying more for a more valuable good/service, and making sure the money for the extra value goes straight to the person who added it.

Same here. I’ll tip when the service has been outstanding and added to my dining experience. Because, as you say, it goes to the person who actually delivered the service. I know it’s not custom in NZ, but it’s accepted practice where I come from so I’m going to keep on doing it. Tip the pizza delivery boy, because he’s likely a student struggling to make his way, etc. Five dollars here and there helps these people out too, more than a government can.

Anyway, digressing. Borker, you are missing the fundamental point. In the restaurant industry their staff forms the bi… Actually. Why bother explaining it to you? Somebody else already did, you just fundamentally don’t have the wit to comprehend it.
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January 2, 2009 12:40pm
cha

Injured Palestinian girl: Hamas is the cause of all wars with an update, commentators think the clip is nothing more than a production staged by Fatah to make Hamas look bad. And more opinion, Has Israel Revived Hamas?.
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January 2, 2009 1:16pm
reid

Just started watching The Trap – it’s excellent, as in Commanding Heights excellent. Here’s the start of the wiki entry on it… Anyone who hasn’t seen the other two docos he made, you should.

The Trap: What Happened to Our Dream of Freedom is a BBC documentary series by English filmmaker Adam Curtis, well known for other documentaries including The Century of the Self and The Power of Nightmares. It began airing on BBC Two on 11 March 2007.

The series consists of three one-hour programmes which explore the concept and definition of freedom, specifically, “how a simplistic model of human beings as self-seeking, almost robotic, creatures led to today’s idea of freedom.”
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January 2, 2009 1:34pm
PhilBest

I want to resume THIS little argument:

Kent Parker (269) 0 4 Says:

December 30th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
PB:”So what is different now, Kent Parker, when you consider the higher incomes of everyone in the USA? Most of Europe, and England, and NZ, have grown their own worse recessions already months before the US one hit. NZ and those other countries all did exactly the same stupid things that the Yanks did…”

Kent Parker: “It is exposure to the disproportionate number of toxic mortgages in the US that has affected other countrys’ financial institutions along with their own housing booms and credit crashes. No country had quite the extent of 100% mortgages as the US and no other country waged a trillion dollar no-dividend war. The US is likely to be hit more than other nations, simply because they have further to fall, but that has been postponed by a $850 billion handout courtesy of Bush and Paulson, because they, like you, want to continue to ride on the merits of the past. When that money runs out then the dollar is likely to crash and be replaced by the Euro as the gold standard.

With the spectacular failure of unregulated markets, the US is likely to become a social democracy or (federation of social democracies) like Europe. The social system in Europe, Australia and here guarantees a certain level of stability that the US simply does not have. It would be far cheaper and more effective to save ordinary working Americans’ mortgages by providing emergency employment assistance until new post-bust industries get themselves into employment mode (like Key is doing here), than to hand out money to the Lear Jet riding cowboys who run the large banks and auto industries. Quite simply, the US does not have the infrastructure in place to administer such a solution. Meanwhile they will be saddled with a bunch of highly uncompetitive antiquated industries for years until sense prevails. In the new political-economic climate gripping the US, they certainly won’t be as inclined to care as much about what happens in the Middle East as you obviously do and all your moral justifications will go riding away on a devalued greenback in the not too distant future…..”

Kent Parker, you are one economically befuddled guy.

Toxic Mortgages are not an issue restricted to the USA. NZ has them too, and virtually all the West. The causes were the same; restrictions on land use driving house prices up; Foreign investment money from Japan and Arabia and other countries resulting in easy credit in the nations where it flowed into; fiscal and monetary distortions resulting in houses being the best speculative investment; and pressures from desperate first home buyers who were locked out of the market, resulting in highly risky lending (a lot of which was politically pushed) based on the assumption that house prices could continue to rise far faster then incomes, forever.

You might like to crow about the situation in the USA, but all the fundamentals are there, right here in NZ; and in fact are on average, worse than the fundamentals in the USA. They are also extremely bad in the UK and Spain and Ireland, and there is hardly a Eurozone country that can be said to NOT have this problem. Even Aussie has a serious house price bubble problem.

You say:

“….No country had quite the extent of 100% mortgages as the US…..”

but the crucial thing is the disconnect between incomes and house values and the potential for loss of equity. NZ has a much worse problem in this respect than the USA; in fact the problem in the USA on this measure, is confined to California and New York and Florida. In most of the USA even at the peak, an average house still cost around 3 times average annual income; in NZ, it is over 6 times, and the UK, Aussie, Spain, Ireland, and much of Europe, this ratio is much higher than in the US. (NZ just happens to be the worst of the lot).

Note that Finance Companies started going bust in NZ long before Lehmann Bros were a worry at all. Note that Northern Rock in the UK went bust a year before anyone got worried about Wall Street.

It is ridiculous to talk about a lack of regulation being a problem. This was a total failure of intelligence and imagination. It was common knowledge all over the western world, that this kind of mortgage lending practice was going on, and all the people who bought securities based on mortgages would not have been protected at all by any kind of regulation that anyone who was actually in positions of authority could have devised. The failure here, was the failure of investors to consider “caveat emptor”, and to go along with the prevailing magic genie assumption that house prices could never fall, regardless of how far out of whack they got with actual incomes and ability to buy. The SEC and other regulatory agencies in the USA have 16,000 staff between them; none of them issued any warnings about a situation that was in plain view. All the warnings came from people like Libertarian, Gold Standard economists from the Ludwig Von Mises school of economics. Would you like some links?

Note the toxic nexus between investors with money, financial institutions, and politicians, especially leftwing, big govenment, nanny state ones, who all bought into the magic genie assumption and still are. You are a lefty yourself. Where do YOU stand on house prices? You seem to think that taxpayer money will resolve the problem without considering the ability of taxpayer money to acheive this. If the total housing stock in NZ ballooned from 300 billion to 600 billion over 10 years and now needs to drop back to something like 350 billion to resume the historic connection between incomes and peoples ability to buy, it doesn’t take much of a brain to work out that a government with a total revenue of 40 billion per annum, is pissing into the wind trying to stop this. The USA actually has a far better chance, at a total housing stock of 20 trillion and total government revenue of 12 trillion; but even this is a hopeless case; the government’s revenue is of course already completely committed.

You say:

“……The US is likely to be hit more than other nations, simply because they have further to fall…..”;

If you compare the rates of economic growth and productivity, it could be argued that the US is in a stronger position, not a weaker one.The social system that you praise in Europe, is not in any sense an economic advantage; it merely results in loss of economic efficiency every bit as much as propping up of antiquated industries and predatory unionisation does. The biggest problem America has now, is the Obama team using the same “solutions” as Europe and making their crisis as bad as Europe instead of substantially less.

You say:

“….that has been postponed by a $850 billion handout courtesy of Bush and Paulson, because they, like you, want to continue to ride on the merits of the past. When that money runs out then the dollar is likely to crash and be replaced by the Euro as the gold standard…..”

You will realise from what I said above, that governments are just pissing bailout money into the wind when the size of the assett bubbles involved is taken into account. I agree with you that the Greenback has to drop in value, but so does all the other currencies of nations where the inevitable assett bubble collapse has occured. The Euro will not be “A Gold Standard”; the only thing capable of being a gold standard, is gold; and that is precisely what we should have. But you completely misrepresent me by saying that I agree with the Bush/Paulson bailout thing, which incidentally is not going to be changed by the Obama team, if anything, the money thrown around by them will be greater and lead to a worse collapse ultimately. 850 billion, is just pissing into the wind; so is 2 trillion; so is 3 trillion; and where does the politicains who really, really believes in his ability to nanny state problems out of existence actually stop?

I very much doubt that your criticism here is based on the thinking of, say, Ron Paul and his advisor Peter Schiff (If you have not been following those guys intelligent comments, you should do so for the sake of your own economic education, there is lots of live interview stuff on YouTube); I regard it as one of the Achilles heels of democracy, that will lead to its death, that the people with the real understanding of economics do not get a chance to do any more than issue warnings that turn out to be true, but only ever get ignored and smeared and marginalised. I am with Ron Paul and Peter Schiff and Rodney Hide on this: the only way out of this mess, is cutting inefficiencies in the economy, which means, number one, taking the axe to government spending that is of no economic benefit, and number two, NOT trying to prop up assetts whether stocks and shares or house prices with taxpayers money, when the over-valuation of these things IS the problem in the first place.

You say:

“…..With the spectacular failure of unregulated markets, the US is likely to become a social democracy or (federation of social democracies) like Europe. The social system in Europe, Australia and here guarantees a certain level of stability that the US simply does not have…..”

Those social systems will be part and parcel of the slow death of inefficient economies, not the solution. You seem to have some grasp of the reality that ALL wealth in the long run, has to be created through work and production; all that the finance sector can do, is enable that; they do NOT create a whole lot of wealth just by getting adventurous with devising more and more financial instruments to leverage the underlying amount of money; thus far, we are probably in agreement. But you do not seem to understand that exactly the same limitation applies to governments as well as to the finance sector. Governments ALSO do NOT create wealth in addition to what is created in “the real economy” of work and production; all they ever do, is shift that wealth away from a better use to a worse one.

I would not go so far out on a limb as to say that the US dollar will drop LESS than the Euro, although I think it might; it is just that if you think that the Euro is not going to get a savaging at the very least comparable to the US dollar, you are sadly mistaken. Eventually, it is the big international creditor nations like Japan and Saudi Arabia that have to have the currencies that hold up in value while the other major currencies collapse.

So yes, I still love the USA, but I fear the worst for it in the event that it continues to abandon all the features that made it strong and admirable in the first place, joining Europe in the Western rush to cultural suicide. And like Melanie Phillips and “Spengler” at Asia Times, I regard the willingness of millions of people to be sucked in by magic genie wealth creation, as part of that whole liberal socialist dumbing down and the abandonment of ethics like thrift and work and personal responsibility. And that goes for you, if you own a home that has doubled in value and you regard that value as yours to cash out, every bit as much as if you had actually worked for it.
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January 2, 2009 2:17pm
slightlyrighty

Borker.

Do you run a business? Think about how many staff in a restaurant are required to get food to your table. In a great establishment, there will be a maitre’d, wine waiter, waiter, barman, head chef, sous chef, and several kitchen staff.

Now if this establishment wishes to open on a public holiday, it can do 2 things.

One, it can raise it’s prices year round to cover the cost of operating on public holidays. If you raise prices, you reduce demand. Turnover goes down and your break even point rises. Not a good idea. Next thing you know we have a maitre’d, wine waiter, waiter, barman, head chef, sous chef, and several kitchen staff, all looking for a new job.

Two, it can meet the extra costs incurred by servicing those who wish to dine on said public holiday by directly charging those who partake of this service. Now I work in retail and get paid time and a half and recieve a day in lieu. But my business has a much lower salary to revenue percentage, and the ability to increase turnover by staggering amounts on a public holiday, making the process very worthwhile.

A restaurant can only do so many covers in a given period. It’s revenue is capped in a way other outlets are not. McDonalds can increase it’s revenue on any given day simply because the food is removed from the restaurant. If I wish to eat in a fine establishment on a public holiday, I know that is the price and I will not resort to THEFT to make my point at the expense of a business who not only offers a service, but also employment.
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January 2, 2009 2:31pm
joeAverage

SLOPPY Companies,piss me off,Wife wanted to buy a exercycle today to get fit so visited elite fitness in alicetown in Hutt Valley(had sale on),She liked a model but it had a sold sign on ,but wait theres a floor model in Porirua said the salesman,who made the call and said we were on our way out to purchase( THIS HABIT KEEPS FIRMS GOING,SALES i think),Hold it we said to the company,so we drove out to the Porirua store and it was closed and dark at 2,25 pm , I hate driving from the hutt to porirua with a $400 purchase in mind ,to have the wife disapointed , and she wants me to waste my time tomorrow to try again WILL IT BE OPEN ( was a higher person ie god telling us not to waste our money???)
ps hutt shop made a cell call so the sales person could have been out fishing for all we know, but some companies dont need sales but there could have been an amergency

[DPF: Have you tried Trade Me?]
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January 2, 2009 4:44pm
big bruv

I find myself in the horrible situation of agreeing with Borker, I guess it brings us back to the old argument about working on public holidays and usual moaning from some of my fellow right wingers about their inability to purchase a soy decaf coffee 365 days of the year.
I also refuse to pay any surcharge, if a business owner feels that he or she simply must open their doors every day of the year then they would be better off working for wages somewhere else.

The other thing that I detest with a passion are the retail chains who insist on opening on Boxing day and New Years day, the poor bastards who do work in these places have NO CHOICE in the matter, if you asked them I could guarantee that the vast majority would rather be enjoying what we laughingly call the summer holidays with the rest of their friends and family.
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January 2, 2009 5:18pm
joeAverage

DAVID you have more cover under the consumer act if it goes PUTT so deal with a company,not a person, PS never get extended warrenties ,thats the best honey trap Thanks for commenting,DPF i still say power walking the YANKS is the best exercise, or running AGILITY
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January 2, 2009 5:46pm
Steve

How about the restaurant owners pay normal wages to the employees and the public holiday surcharge goes directly to the employee for working?
No time and half wages, no day holiday in lieu, just the surcharge goes to those working. There is the incentive for working on a public holiday.
Bit like a tip huh? and why not.
Management still gets the turnover, the food/drink does not cost them more and the people actually working get the reward for working a public holiday.
Simple is best.
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January 2, 2009 7:30pm
Sonny Blount

We only have ourselves as voters to blame. If the government we voted in has increased wages for particular days because we don’t want people working then of course business’ are going to close, it is the desired effect of the legislation. While I completetly understand the desire of people to spend those days at home with their family, I would prefer to be able to make that decision for myself. There are times when the best thing a person can do for their life or family is to go to work as we can’t as yet gaurantee a day off for bills, all of those closed or surcharging business also have to pay full rent/rates/loans (Can we make a law where we can only be charged 354 days please?). There are plenty of people in New Zealand perfectly happy to work on these days (There are many non-christians but also plenty of christians/westerners in this situation) who might not have any family around or personal goals that supercede a day off. I also believe that no one in NZ is forced to work anywhere, everybody in hospitality knows (or should realise) that if we want to work Mon-Fri 9-5 then we need to look to another industry, as by definition hospitality will always operate when everybody else is off work. The QSR industry I am involved in expects an annual turnover of up to 300% and this because people have other options.

We are perfectly able to organise our lives and choose which of the 365 days in the year we want to take off, when we would like to go the movies or a restaurant, and which days we would like to spend with our families.
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January 2, 2009 8:04pm
Sonny Blount

Steve, regarding wages. Wouldn’t it be simpler just to pay people what their work is worth straight up? To me the current situation just confuses the maths. We have a national minimum wage of $14 but in reality it is $16.17 per hour of work, as the wage is also paid for 5 days (1 week) for sick leave, 4 weeks for annual leave, 2 weeks (11 days) for public holidays which is 7 out of 52 weeks. So after working 45 weeks we continue to get paid the same for another 7 (or 15% of what we have worked). I would rather just set the minimum at $16 and forget all the other stuff so we all know whats going on. After all there is still ACC levies, and other special leave (parental etc) to account for. With holiday pay the employer holds onto it for sometimes a very long time and there are many cases (it has happened to me) that when it comes time for the employer to pay the money it is no longer there.
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January 2, 2009 8:24pm
Harpoon

Billyborker:

Why is it only the hospitality industry that is so ill organised that it must charge more on the very days when people have more time to spend in their establishments? My petrol and bread cost no more on those days, so why should my beer or pizza?

Answer: politics. The owners of these establishments* have an ulterior motive; they want ordinary Kiwis to dislike the surcharge and therefore pressurise their MPs to change to law. They want support for a law change.

* two owners I know are doing it for this purpose. Of course, I could be wrong, but being proven so would mean BillyB’s negative assessment of their business acument is correct.
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January 2, 2009 8:36pm
Harpoon

PhilBest, I think you need to develop your own blog!
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January 2, 2009 8:37pm
Sonny Blount

Harpoon, I think it is also the size of the business and the proportion of labour in the cost of the goods. A lot of cafes and restaurants are marginal operations at best and are less able to wear sharp rises in costs like a McDonalds with 10 times or more of their turnover. I would think that there is plenty of opportunity for the ones that remain open and don’t charge extra to make a good profit if the market is there, just go to the ones that don’t charge extra, they’ll take off and others will follow. If others don’t follow then they most probably can’t make a business case for it.

Off course business should tie price increases to cost increases. I look ahead when setting prices and tie in any rises to the effects that cause them rather than ‘when I can no longer manage it’. So this year I increased my prices on April 1st when the minimum wage went up. That way when my customers reevaluate the perceived value in their purchase they are more accepting of ‘increasing wage pressures’ than if I did it 6 months later (which I would inevitably have to do) and they can’t see a good reason why they should pay more. We can’t avoid the decisions the government we elect makes, we have chosen to increase the minimum wage of our economy but we have to accept that that is going to cause some price rises in some goods, and in this case we have increased the wage on particular days so we are going to see some price rises or closed businesses.
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January 2, 2009 9:19pm
Christopher

Just as a note to all of the Leftist persuasion, this is what your arguments all ultimately lead to:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10550277

Have a read. Partisan politics aside, it’s still an interesting read.
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January 2, 2009 9:29pm
pdm

Steve – we have just had nine years of a Labour government supressing free enterprise and trying to have everyone paid the same what ever they do. In short they think it is best for the country if everyone is dragged down to the lowest common denominator. I am sure Harpoon will agree with this theory,

As someone said earlier if people in the food industry provide good service and provide quality food at fair value the surcharge then becomes irrelevant because their business will prosper through public support. That is how it should be with staff free to work at arate of pay negotiated with the employer. If the rate of pay is not fair then that restaurent has no staff – simple really.
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January 2, 2009 9:34pm
r thscargill

But wait!..there is so much more to come from the worker hating National/Act government.

One of the first things they will do is increase the fire at will bill to all employers regardless of staff numbers, just imagine how pricks like progressive enterprises will abuse that system with youth rates and the like, as soon as kids have been there long enough to qualify for the adult wage they will be dispensed with.

The next little gem we can expect from the wankers is the repeal of the four weeks annual leave legislation, we simply cannot have our poor greedy bosses giving that much leave to the workers who create the fucking wealth in the first place can we.

I think it is hilarious that the Nat’s have been patting themselves on the back for defeating the “evil Clark/Cullen” team yet by their very actions the National/Act government are going to usher in a real left wing Labour/Green party gov’t that will make Clark and Cullen seem like Roger Douglas.
When that DOES happen we will finally see what real social justice is all about, many of you are going to have to face the reality of Sue Bradford as Minister of Social Welfare, when that day comes we will see the beginning of a much fairer. kinder and just Aoetearoa/New Zealand
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January 2, 2009 10:00pm
MT_Tinman

“# big bruv Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:18 pm

I find myself in the horrible situation of agreeing with Borker, I guess it brings us back to the old argument about working on public holidays and usual moaning from some of my fellow right wingers about their inability to purchase a soy decaf coffee 365 days of the year.
I also refuse to pay any surcharge, if a business owner feels that he or she simply must open their doors every day of the year then they would be better off working for wages somewhere else.

The other thing that I detest with a passion are the retail chains who insist on opening on Boxing day and New Years day, the poor bastards who do work in these places have NO CHOICE in the matter, if you asked them I could guarantee that the vast majority would rather be enjoying what we laughingly call the summer holidays with the rest of their friends and family.”

Big Bruv, I’ve quoted the post attributed to you on this thread in case your original post was (as I suspect) sabotaged.

(Also because then I can regularly remind you of it. 😉 )

BB, as you know, the way I gain (I would say “earn” but we both know better) my living involves listening to people.

While most of this listening involves racist or envious rants against those willing to work to get ahead in life sometimes there is honesty there as well.

BB, I can assure you that were you to poll those working in chain stores, restaurants, hospitals, or other employment situations on superstition-based public “holidays” the majority would advise you they were doing so voluntarily and were happy to be doing so.

I know because I have.

I also work public holidays.

Many forced to take a particular day (or days) off are unhappy at that compulsion.

You emphasise the “no choice” bit.

Of course they have a choice. Leaving aside laws enforcing those choices these people have the choice to work for employers they know will require their services on public holidays or not, the choice to build into their employment contracts provisions for them to have those days as leave if they wish and, of course, as the bastards do every day, the choice to walk away from that employment with little or no notice for whatever reason they choose.

And finally BB, unlike that other miserable, humourless, ignorant, tight-arsed prick who has never worked a real job in his life, I know you have so why do you not want the poor bastard who (much more often than not) works the hardest of the lot -the restaurant operator – to be well paid for his work and sacrifice so you and yours can utilize his services on days labour law extorts his attempts to feed his family?
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January 2, 2009 10:16pm
Glutaemus Maximus

The best that the Labour/Green supporters can come up with is that they want to complain about paying extra

dollars as a direct result of their own legislation.

Very weird actually.

How about we give everyone a break, and EVERY business and Public Dervice is closed on all stat days and weekends that are included.

That there is no door open for any trading, and even Hotels, Lodges, Farms are shut.

Nothing moves on the roads, by rail, and the power stations turn off the power, and we halt the sewrage farms etc.

A bit like the dark ages but totally fair to all.

No Police, Ambulances, Hospitals. Air Travel.

We would be admired by the UN, Hamas, Taleban, and Prick Cullen.
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January 2, 2009 10:41pm
Glutaemus Maximus

So the UK airports are going to charge all drivers £5 to drop off and Pick up. Even if under 10 minutes.

Terrorism is the excuse.

Like a bomber will be put off by that price, and doesn’t apply to Taxis or Shuttles.

Well a determined Terrorist would never Hi-Jack a PSV.

More fun and Games from Gay Gordon!!

Fat, fuckin one eyed useless tosspot!
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January 3, 2009 12:29am
Ross Miller

r thscargill (34) Vote: 0 4 Says: When that DOES happen we will finally see what real social justice is all about, many of you are going to have to face the reality of Sue Bradford as Minister of Social Welfare, when that day comes we will see the beginning of a much fairer. kinder and just Aoetearoa/New Zealand.

When that day arrives the only people left in “Aoetearoa” (sic) will be the people on a benefit so, just who is going to pay?
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January 3, 2009 9:43am
Christopher

When that day arrives the only people left in “Aoetearoa” (sic) will be the people on a benefit so, just who is going to pay?

Didn’t know know Ross? Beneficiaries are actually all completely self-supporting! The idea that every dollar a beneficiary spends on drugs, cigarettes and booze is one that a citizen of this country has to go out and toil for is pure propaganda from the VRWC.

Get it right.
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January 3, 2009 10:29am

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