General Debate 24 January 2009

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MT_Tinman

A Herald poll has named Herr Klark as the “greatest living NZer”.

While noting the numbers voting are about equivalent to the numbers in the extended families of Jafa Labour Party members the question must be asked;

Why do we allow these people to play a part in choosing how this country is run?

Surely this joke, this travesty should immediately see the improvisation of licenses of competence for all potential voters.
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January 24, 2009 3:02pm
Frank

MT_Tinman: Helen Clark is the so-called “greatest living NZer” who fooled most of the people all the time.
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January 24, 2009 3:32pm
Redbaiter

A Herald poll has named Herr Klark as the “greatest living NZer”.

In a recent REAL POLL, Klark got her ever spreading and useless arse kicked out of government good and proper. Any poll in that fish wrapper the NZ Herald, NZ’s own bigoted biased propagandizing New York Times, is worthless. How many people voted. 12000?? And all multi voting Klark suckholes no doubt. What a sick joke.

The Herald is another decrepit dinosauric edifice that should slink off into the sunset. Like most of the mainstream media it is infested with false journalists. Pravda style leftists with nothing to offer but left liberal propaganda, and for that over-used commodity, as the economic collapse of so many similar rags overseas shows, time has run right out.
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January 24, 2009 3:38pm
kiwipolemicist

IMHO Herr Helen is NZ’s only native snake, and therefore NZ’s greatest living snake.

As I said in a post some time ago:

Helen Clark is like a teflon-coated snake who can swim into a cesspit to visit her friends and then come out clean and fresh.

From http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/joke-of-the-day-helen-clark-invokes-natural-justice-and-fair-process/

Redbaiter: saying that the Herald is a fish wrapper is being far too kind. All too often it just spouts state propaganda:
http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/12/05/the-nz-herald-delivers-state-propaganda/
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January 24, 2009 3:58pm
kiwipolemicist

Who stole my html tag?
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January 24, 2009 4:01pm
Jack5

New Zealanders dumped Helen Crock and her Government virtually weeks ago.

The Herald poll result speaks volumes about the readership and political orientation of the NZ Herald.
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January 24, 2009 4:08pm
Redbaiter

Q: Why does Michelle Obama have such a large security detail??

A: Because if she gets killed, Obama will be running the USA.
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January 24, 2009 4:12pm
reid

The Herald poll result speaks volumes about the readership and political orientation of the NZ Herald.

Agree about the editors orientation Jack, but the readership is large and varied. I suggest it says more about that subset of people who could be arsed voting on such a stupid topic with such a poor range of choices.

Maybe it was more about Hulun getting all her mates together so she could bolster her CV for the UN job. The rest of her record’s already beginning to look as patchy as a mangy dog in moulting season, isn’t it.
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January 24, 2009 4:18pm
virtualmark

I’m with reid. I think this poll says more about the respondents than it does about the Herald’s candidates for “greatest living NZer”.

FWIW, I’d have voted for Peter Snell. But to be honest, the field seems pretty light. It’s a bit of an indictment really.
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January 24, 2009 4:36pm
reid

It’s a huge indictment, virtualmark.

The Herald’s treating us like idiots, with the range they provided. WTF were they thinking? I hope they’re bloody reading this thread.
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January 24, 2009 4:43pm
cha

Halatau Naitoko was killed by police shot and adds his name to the list.

* October 23, 2008. A woman armed with a gun entered the First Mobile Vodafone Shop in Reyburn St, Whangarei, shortly after 9am. About an hour later she opened the shop door and was shot by a member of the police armed offenders squad, crouched behind a car across the road;

* September 26, 2007. Stephen Bellingham, 37, shot dead by a policeman in Christchurch about 8.30pm after smashing cars/car windows with a claw hammer. Said to have been on a party-pill binge. Advanced on the police officer with the hammer. Warned but kept advancing. Hit in chest (fatally) and one leg. Policeman said to have fired four shots;

* August 14, 2004. Haidar Ebbadi Mahdi 37, died from a bullet to the head as he stabbed his wife being held in a headlock in a South Auckland house on Saturday afternoon;

* April 30, 2000. Steven Wallace, 23, of Waitara, shot after a window smashing spree in the town;

* July 1, 1999. Edwin Leo, 31, shot near Helensville, Northland, following a car chase;

* September 21, 1996. James Raharuhi killed by a single police bullet at a service station in Greenlane, Auckland;

* June 24, 1996. Terence Thompson shot in a Havelock North orchard. Thompson was the prime suspect in the slaying of Constable Glenn McKibbin;

* November 20, 1995. Barry Radcliffe shot after taking a rifle from a sporting goods store in Whangarei;

* September 28, 1995. Eric Gellatly shot in Invercargill, after he took over a sports shop in the central city and began firing indiscriminately;

* July 29, 1993. Larry Hammond died after being shot three times in the Morrinsville police station;

* November 14, 1990. Members of the anti-terrorist squad shot David Malcolm Gray after he killed 13 people at Aramoana, Otago;

* October 27, 1990. Paul Melvin Stowers died after being shot in the forehead by a detective whom he threatened with a shotgun in Newmarket, Auckland;

* March 14, 1986. Benjamin Wharerau shot as he took a hostage in a robbery of a Dargaville bank;

* June 6, 1985. Kevin David Fox was shot after he killed his wife in a car in Gore;

* April 18, 1983. Paul Chase shot by the armed offenders squad in a raid on a Petone, Wellington, flat;

* December 24, 1982. John Edward Morgan shot near Wainuiomata, Wellington, after throwing an axe at police;

* May 20, 1979. Nicholas Panayi shot by the armed offenders squad outside his Henderson, Auckland, home after a domestic dispute;

* October 4, 1976. The armed offenders squad shot Daniel Houpapa after he fires at an officer in Taumarunui;

* 1975. Edward Ross shot by the armed offenders squad as he stabbed his daughter after escaping from a Christchurch psychiatric hospital;

* April 16, 1970. Bruce John Glensor, holding two hostages in a Wellington house shot by the armed offenders squad when he threatened to shoot an officer;

* December 14, 1949. Waata Haremia Momo shot in Weedon, Canterbury, after exchanging shots with police.

* October 20, 1941. West Coast farmer Eric Stanley Graham killed after shooting three policemen and three civilians;
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January 24, 2009 4:45pm
Sector 7g

I was pretty sure Louise Nicholas was going to win the title of “greatest living New Zealander”.

Who the fuck came up with these choices?
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January 24, 2009 4:50pm
Bok

The temparature officially just hit 40.6 degrees here in Sydney, but in my courtyard in Balmain, the glass says 43.1 C. I have just hosed my cats down and they just stood there.
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January 24, 2009 4:51pm
Sector 7g

From the Herald article, you must ask why the New Zealand police (Armed offenders squad) were too scared of taking out this armed criminal earlier, when he was in an area that wasnt surrounded by civilians.
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January 24, 2009 4:54pm
AG

Gosh … lucky police don’t have tasers. Imagine the harm that those might do!

Seriously, most of these examples look like good kills to me. And no doubt a number are actually suicide by cop (David Grey certainly was). The two dodgiest ones to me are Terence Thompson (anyone seriously think this guy was coming in alive, after he gunned down a Police?) and Steven Wallace (a clusterfuck of an operation all round – but you think he’d be dead if he were a white guy going bonkers on Parnell Rd?)
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January 24, 2009 4:55pm
Bok

Cha I dont see the point of the list. They are people who have been shot by the cops. Most seem fairly straight forward, while this one was not. Maybe I am just stupid, but …..
This guy seem to have been an innocent bystander.
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January 24, 2009 4:58pm
Redbaiter

“but you think he’d be dead if he were a white guy going bonkers on Parnell Rd?”

Oh yeah, of course. The cop who shot Wallace was a racist. Haven’t you idiots got anything else in your armoury for chrissakes??

Y’know, if there weren’t so many wet liberals ready to scream blue murder every time the cops shoot anyone, maybe the initial offender would have been taken out earlier and in circumstances far less dangerous to the public.
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January 24, 2009 5:05pm
Redbaiter

Obama the terrorist lover- 61 of the scum released from Guantanamo Bay have rejoined the terrorists forces fighting against democracy world wide. Those forces will be boosted (in so many ways) now that Obama is President and more of these scum will be released. What a massive mistake for the free world is the election of this bat eared idiot.
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January 24, 2009 5:08pm
reid

Whereas Bush was doing such a great job, RB?
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January 24, 2009 5:11pm
AG

“The cop who shot Wallace was a racist. ”

I’ve no reason to think this is so. But I think his actions likely were coloured by issues of race and class … hence my question.

[DPF: I think his actions were coloured by the fact Wallace was trying to kill him wih a baseball bat]
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January 24, 2009 5:13pm
Redbaiter

Bush did well, and stuck to his guns even when the treasonist left decided to politicise the war as a ticket to electoral success.
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January 24, 2009 5:15pm
reid

I’ve no reason to think this is so. But I think his actions likely were coloured by issues of race and class … hence my question.

I think that says a whole lot more about your own world view of how people think than anything else, AG?

Why do you think a white cop would be any more or less racist than for example, your own good self?
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January 24, 2009 5:18pm
AG

“Why do you think a white cop would be any more or less racist than for example, your own good self?”

I don’t think that. I very well might have reacted the same way (ie showed the same biases). Does this make it right?

[DPF: I think you are projecting your biases onto others]
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January 24, 2009 5:24pm
bharmer

# AG (362) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
January 24th, 2009 at 5:13 pm

“The cop who shot Wallace was a racist. ”

“I’ve no reason to think this is so. But I think his actions likely were coloured by issues of race and class … hence my question.”

My recollection is that Constable Abbott was of the same ethnicity as the guy who was shot while trying to remove the officer’s head with a swinging club. I am sure someone will correct me if that’s not so.
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January 24, 2009 5:28pm
reid

Bush did well, and stuck to his guns even when the treasonist left decided to politicise the war as a ticket to electoral success.

Haven’t you been reading the newspapers, RB? Apparently, the economy, the Iraq war, the ‘war on terror’ didn’t perform awfully well during Bush’s watch.

Apparently, the economies pretty fucked and apparently, Bush et al did a whole hell of a lot to make it that way.

Apparently, while the US military efficiently decimated the Iraqi military, unfortunately, no thought whatsoever was given to the best way to setup a workable stable Iraqi govt. Instead, the infrastructure was not rebuilt, the Iraqi authorities were dismantled due to the CPA’s de-B’aathification policies, and lots of young men with guns were told the military didn’t want them anymore. Apparently, this was Bush et al’s job to do, and he didn’t do it. Apparently, lots and lots of Iraqis aren’t too happy about the way things have turned out, and would have frankly preferred, to be living under Saddam’s brutal regime, because at least under him, there was a semblance of stability. Apparently, all of this was entirely predictable, and was predicted, at the time, but Bush et al didn’t want to listen to the State Dept’s Arabists who understood the complexities of Iraqi politics and completely ignored their advice and instead tried to impose a western-style of govt using selected figureheads like Chalabi who weren’t connected at all to anyone who mattered inside Iraqi politics. Apparently, all of this wasn’t a very good thing at all and these omissions are the reason why Iraq is such a shit-hole today. If you want to call Iraq a success then go ahead, and pray explain to the rest of us precisely what your definition of a failure might be.

Meanwhile the war on terror has resulted in the US going from global sympathy to having probably the worst global public opinion rating it’s ever had. Another resounding triumph, in your book, I imagine. Not to mention the thousands of muslims he’s encouraged to take up arms…
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January 24, 2009 5:30pm
Redbaiter

“lucky police don’t have tasers.”

The primary reason tasers are under consideration is not to reduce the need for firearms, but to compensate for the strength deficiencies of woman police. Stupid blonde haired bimbos posing as police can’t wait to get their hands on them so they can zap any man who might say something they consider offensive to their pathetic feminazi sensibilities. Get back into the kitchen and get pregnant and stop weakening our Police Force with your outdated ideology you brainwashed dimbulbs.

[DPF: The only outdated ideology on display here is yours.]
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January 24, 2009 5:34pm
bharmer

cha (194) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
January 24th, 2009 at 4:45 pm

“Halatau Naitoko was killed by police shot and adds his name to the list.” As far as I know, he is in a unique class of innocent bystanders. I am unaware that any of the others fitted that category.

I am also intrigued at the imbalance in your post. The 28 missing people can be found at http://www.police.govt.nz/about/memorial.html
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January 24, 2009 5:34pm
Redbaiter

“Haven’t you been reading the newspapers, RB?”

No I haven’t actually Reid, and why would anyone seeking truth want to?

“Meanwhile the war on terror has resulted in the US going from global sympathy to having probably the worst global public opinion rating it’s ever had.”

Pfffft..!!!

..and what a bunch of terrorist supporting spineless suckholes think about the US matters for what reason exactly??
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January 24, 2009 5:38pm
reid

I don’t think that. I very well might have reacted the same way (ie showed the same biases). Does this make it right?

AG, why do you think any bias at all was ever displayed? You seem to be saying that if a white cop shoots a black guy then bias is inevitably operating. Is that what you’re saying?

bharmer, your recollection is also mine. Thanks for reminding me.
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January 24, 2009 5:38pm
AG

bharmer,

I’m not sure matters are as simple as you make out … nor was the coroner who looked at this. See http://www.stuff.co.nz/4151900a11.html

As for Constable Abbott’s ethnicity, so what? I’m white, but I make biased judgments about other whites all the time. My only, single and simple point is that I think Stephen Wallace was shot more readily than would have been the case were he a well dressed white guy going bonkers in a upmarket street (rather than a young Maori guy going bonkers in a poor Taranaki town).

That said, the shooting still might be justified. The IPCA investigation may well put such concerns to rest. I’ll suspend final judgment till I see it.

Oh – and Reid? No … not in all cases. You’ll note the Wallace one is the only case of a Maori target that I mention.

[DPF: Wallace killed himself when he advanced on armed police trying to kill them. You can invent scenarios around white men in suits in Auckland, but I think you do the Police a dis-service]
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January 24, 2009 5:40pm
reid

..and what a bunch of terrorist supporting spineless suckholes think about the US matters for what reason exactly??

I love your diction, RB, don’t ever change, it’s great, seriously.

As to the point, I don’t think you could say that everyone who disapproves of the Bush Presidency is necessarily anti-American and secondly, I don’t think you could say that everyone who disapproves of the Bush Presidency is necessarily a member of the “bunch of terrorist supporting spineless suckholes” who no doubt really do exist but probably in much smaller numbers than you appear to believe.
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January 24, 2009 5:43pm
AG

reid,

Surely you have heard of “if you are not with us, you are against us”? RB just takes it to its logical conclusion!
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January 24, 2009 5:44pm
cha

IMO, these are the dodgy police shootings
.
Halatau Naitoko, at work.

Stephen Bellingham, breaking windows.

Steven Wallace, was well known to Abbott, breaking windows.

Terence Thompson, extra- judicial execution

John “Migs”Edward Morgan, had one leg, the police pursued him in a helicopter and when they landed he threw an axe.

Paul Chase, answered the door.
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January 24, 2009 5:53pm
dime

yea, if i had some nutbar coming at me with a baseball bat, i wouldnt shoot him. id offer him a hug.. morons.

newsflash – try to kill a cop with a bat and you die… simple rules for a simple world to live by.
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January 24, 2009 6:08pm
AG

Which are what simple people need. Makes things so reassuring.
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January 24, 2009 6:16pm
Rex Widerstrom

Note to police: When approached by someone holding a bat, club, hammer or other hand-held instrument, these are only dangerous if you’re dumb enough to get within swinging distance. If you are, then your training is inadequate and/or you don’t belong on the force.

Unless the person holding such a weapon is also holding or advancing on trapped members of the public with it, there is no excuse for letting off a volley of shots.

And a further note to police: a life – any life – is worth more than any property, especially a few windows.

Thanks for the list, cha. I remember the Morgan killing… happened just up the road. For all the people who believe cha’s list were “clean shoots” here’s some alternative ways Morgan could have been captured:

– Wait till he tired out (ever tried running with a false leg across rough ground?).
– Duck the axe… he’d then be out of ammo and reduced to throwing clods of earth.
– Throw a net out the helicopter.
– Use a tranquiliser gun (there were no bystanders he could have injured while it took effect).
– Wait till he tripped over (see note re wooden leg).

Then there’s Paul Chase… not smashing down the door and barging in pumped with adrenalin so the startled homeowner doesn’t realise the danger inherent in not putting down his weight lifting bar before he sticks his head out into the hall to ask what the hell’s going on.

Based on cha’s summations (because I don’t recall them all) eight of the 22 people on that list had fired at police or were in the process of physically harming a member of the public. A further three were threatening to use guns on police (assuming Radcliffe was in this category).

That suggests as many as 11 people are dead when they don’t need to be.

[DPF: I disagree entirely. The Police’s job is to confront the offender not run away from him. We have that luxury they don’t. If armed police tell you to drop the baseball bat and you instead advance on them you have just killed yourself. Zero sympathy. At least with tazers now there may be an alternative to having to use a gun]
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January 24, 2009 6:21pm
kiwipolemicist

I believe that the statist thugs in blue can’t be trusted with tasers. A while ago I looked at an example of police using pepper spray to get a man out of a toilet: he wasn’t harming anyone, he just refused to come out, but they sprayed him. Who in their right mind would give tasers to a bunch of baboons drunk on power?

http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/09/02/the-police-cant-be-trusted-with-tasers/

(Speaking of drunken baboon-like behaviour, check out this amazing comment from a reader. Hopefully the guy isn’t telling the truth:
http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2009/01/22/update-to-drink-driving-should-be-legalised/ )
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January 24, 2009 6:48pm
Fletch

reid, I HAVE been reading the newspapers, and I blogged about it last week that George Bush will be seen by history as a good president.

History, by looking at the key facts rather than being distracted by the loud ambient noise of the 24-hour news cycle, will probably hand down a far more positive judgment on Mr Bush’s presidency than the immediate, knee-jerk loathing of the American and European elites.

If you actually look at the facts and the info that Bush had, he’s done a VERY good job.
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January 24, 2009 6:53pm
kiwipolemicist

The problems with the police will never be solved while we have a state police force, because the state is not accountable to the people and uses the police to subjugate the people.

The anti-smacking law is a perfect example of the state using the police to impose its will upon the people, despite 83%+ of those people objecting to the anti-smacking law:
http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/who-are-the-police-really-serving/

http://mises.org/story/3092
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January 24, 2009 6:55pm
AG

“[DPF: Wallace killed himself when he advanced on armed police trying to kill them. You can invent scenarios around white men in suits in Auckland, but I think you do the Police a dis-service]”

This sums up the final few seconds of what was a considerably longer incident. It’s not the final decision to pull the trigger that may be questioned, but how matters came to that point. But as I say, the IPCA will tell us a lot.
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January 24, 2009 6:56pm
Fletch

ps, I also did a post on Helen’s win the Greatest Living NZ-er Poll. As I pointed out, Stalin has recently been named among the greatest ever Russians, so Helen is in good company…
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January 24, 2009 6:58pm
reid

If you actually look at the facts and the info that Bush had, he’s done a VERY good job.

Sure Fletch. I have looked at the facts, and so far they all support the provisional conclusion I made years ago, that Bush is the worst President in US history. I always have an open mind however and am happy to revise my view anytime.

I listed a very few of the facts I’ve used in my 5:30.

Which facts have you used to come to your conclusion?

Also, if you think that the millions of people who apparently share my conclusion about Bush reflects “only the immediate, knee-jerk loathing of the American and European elites,” then I’d suggest we’re not only not sharing the same planet, but that we’re not sharing the same galaxy.
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January 24, 2009 7:14pm
Fletch

reid, and what are u basing your theory on that Bush is the worst president ever? Why?
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January 24, 2009 7:20pm
Redbaiter

[DPF: The only outdated ideology on display here is yours.]

That women in the front line of the police and the armed forces weaken the effectiveness of those groups is not an outdated idea Mr. Farrar.

That woman should by reason of their sex be guaranteed a job in the Police is actually an idea that preceded the idea that they should not be, and the arguments that support this (and there are many, some examples below) are arguments that have only surfaced since wimmen have entered the forces. I would argue therefore that the idea that wimmen should be in the Police force just because they are woman is the real “outdated” ideology.

Three karma for, three against. Agree/disagree on Kiwiblog is equal (at the moment). Can’t be that out-dated.

———————————————–

From the report of the Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces dated November 15, 1992-

The average female Army recruit is 4.8 inches shorter, 31.7 pounds lighter, has 37.4 fewer pounds of muscle, and 5.7 more pounds of fat than the average male recruit. She has only 55 percent of the upper-body strength and 72 percent of the lower-body strength.

An Army study done in 1988 found that women are more than twice as likely to suffer leg injuries and nearly five times as likely to suffer fractures as men.

Further, the Commission heard an abundance of expert testimony including:

– women’s aerobic capacity is significantly lower, meaning they cannot carry as much as far as fast as men, and they are more susceptible to fatigue.

– in terms of physical capability, the upper five percent of women are at the level of the male median. The average 20-to-30 year-old woman has the same aerobic capacity as a 50 year-old man.

After a study was conducted at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, one expert testified that:

– using the standard Army Physical Fitness Test, the upper quintile (top 20%) of women at West point achieved scores on the test equivalent to the bottom quintile (bottom 20%) of men.

– only 21 women out of the initial 623 (3.4%) achieved a score equal to the male mean score of 260.

– on the push-up test, only 7% of women can meet a score of 60, while 78% of men exceed it.

– adopting a male standard of fitness at West Point would mean 70% of the women he studied would be separated as failures at the end of their junior year, only 3% would be eligible for the Recondo badge, and not one would receive the Army Physical Fitness badge.

Also, recent studies indicate women are more at risk to getting PTSD, as documented from Iraq and Afghanistan, women who were never in direct combat but whose camps were shelled were more likely to develop PTSD than there male counter-parts.
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January 24, 2009 7:23pm
grumpyoldhori

A little commonsense people, the Wallace shooting was a fuckup but what bloody choice did Abbott have, where the fuck was two 100 kg backup coppers to take Wallace to the ground.
And for that reason I am in favor of the cops having tasers, yes people have died after being tasered, but the numbers are bugger all in comparison with those hit by 9mm slugs.

Policewomen, strange as it might seem to some on this NG, the majority of males in NZ still have some chivalry and will not throw a punch at a policewoman when being arrested for being drunk etc,etc.

Having said that I do have a problem with no height and weight standards for male coppers, they say it is unfair to the Vietnamese who wish to join the cops,
but in Vietnam they would not be struggling one on one against some bugger who bangs his head in the front row each saturday.
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January 24, 2009 7:24pm
AG

“Three karma for, three against. Agree/disagree on Kiwiblog is equal (at the moment). Can’t be that out-dated.”

Sigh. Once again, RB conflates popularity with truth.

I propose a vote on whether the sun should rise tomorrow.
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January 24, 2009 7:24pm
andrei

“I have looked at the facts, and so far they all support the provisional conclusion I made years ago, that Bush is the worst President in US history.”

Good historical perspective here.

I don’t imagine that you have ever heard of James Buchanan, or do you think President Bush is worse than him Reid?
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January 24, 2009 7:30pm
Redbaiter

“Once again, RB conflates popularity with truth.”

I didn’t actually. Once again, you make roadkill look smart.
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January 24, 2009 7:34pm
AG

Oh, get along with you, you little kidder.

How’s the karma count looking now?
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January 24, 2009 7:36pm
Redbaiter

“How’s the karma count looking now?”

Funny question for one who reckons numbers are worthless to ask.
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January 24, 2009 7:39pm
Redbaiter

“I don’t imagine that you have ever heard of James Buchanan”

Short delay while Reid madly Googles for “President James Buchanan”.
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January 24, 2009 7:40pm
Ross Miller

I can’t comment on the Wallace incident but I do know that when a person presents a gun (as they did on Friday), you may rightly assume he/she is intent on carrying the matter through to conclusion and you react accordingly. I know and I have and you live with that for the rest of your life … and it doesn’t get better as you get older.

My sympathy goes to both the police and the family

I have no (read NO) sympathy for the lawyers on legal aid queuing up to defend the low life who made this happen.

As for the low life …………………….
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January 24, 2009 7:43pm
dime

i love how the left seem to think cops are superhuman.. you guys have no idea.

my brother was a frontline cop for 10 years.. hes the strongest man ive ever met. he was a new zealand karate champion… he’s told me many times – if a guy is resisting, it is almost impossible to cuff him by yourself.

i was overseas at the time, but from what i recall, wallace had no back up? it was just him and some nutter smashing shit with a baseball bat and advancing on him. tough luck, you die.
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January 24, 2009 8:03pm
grumpyoldhori

Funny as this may be I agree with Red with women and the military.
No problems with women in the airfarce or that lot who are in to rum sodomy and the lash.
But, when I hear that they have put two fifty four kg women officers into the infantry my first thoughts were WTF.
Women officers are against being in a all women platoon because they believe women are not up to it but, they expect the men to carry them.
Are they capable, easy test, chuck 45 kg on their backs hand them a rifle and give them a workout.
They would be carrying more than their body weight ,yep they would, and so do the blokes.
An evil test is carting her gear plus a mortar tube to the top of a range.
But, I have a nasty suspicion that like the cops the training for these two women has been gender normed.
Oh, that is a point, should the cops be like the fire brigade, one standard, and if you cannot pass it, tough ?
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January 24, 2009 8:06pm
reid

Fletch, Bush was only the figurehead for the Administration who performed some of the actions that contributed to my judgement, and no doubt some of the actions were taken with or without his knowledge or agreement at the time. So when I talk about Bush, I am including not just himself but his Administration too. I hold Bush personally responsible using the same principle that the US Navy does, where a Captain is always held responsible if their ship runs aground, regardless of the circumstance. The theory being that he should have run a tighter ship. Just wanted to make that clear at the outset, and I just mention BTW, that this is why I’ve recently decided to start referring to it as Bush et al.

Second point is that I can’t be arsed spending my entire Saturday night writing realms of material and no doubt at some point DPF will post a thread on this very topic, so I’m only going to talk about several limited aspects.

Your links raised Iraq. The main issue with Iraq is not the reasons why they went, but what’s happened since. As I detailed in my 5:30, there was absolutely no preparation for the occupation, and disastrous decisions were taken that have in fact resulted in a disaster. It was entirely Bush et al’s responsibility to manage the diplomacy and govt setup after hostilities ceased and he has failed utterly in that.

Secondly, your link refers to WMD. As we all know, Bush et al also claimed close connections to Saddam and al-Qa’ida – there were TWO main reasons for Iraq according to Bush et al, not one.

George Tenet, the head of the CIA at the time, in his memoirs “At the heart of the storm” summarises the WMD approximately thusly. (I don’t have the book I’ve lent it to someone so have to go off memory).

“At the end of the day the WMD issue boiled down to this: Saddam was bluffing but we didn’t know that he was, whereas we [the US] weren’t bluffing and Saddam didn’t realise that.” The CIA thought the WMD was a strong possibility because they could not understand why Saddam would pretend to have them when he didn’t, given that all he needed to do was say he didn’t and the sanctions would have collapsed.

Re: connection to al-Qa’ida however, Tenet is unequivocal. Bush et al drew connections that weren’t there: Feith, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowiz, Libby all acted to cherry-pick the intelligence and build a false picture that was then sold to the world. After all, WMD wasn’t enough, since even if Saddam had them, what was so special about 2003 that made it a necessity to commit American lives and treasure to his removal? They had to have something else, and they absolutely made it up.

You want to dispute the head of the CIA at the time, go ahead. Bear in mind that while he’s a Democrat you don’t get to be the Head of the CENTRAL Intelligence Agency by (a) being a liar (b) being a fool (c) allowing petty politics to interfere with your professional service to the POTUS.
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January 24, 2009 8:11pm
Rex Widerstrom

kiwipolemicist: Exactly (to both your comments).
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January 24, 2009 8:13pm
gnadsmasher

Rex W is the whinger who pulled his toys when another blog called him on some low level vulgarity (in violation of its comments policy). Now he says that the cops have to be cool and retreat when some crazed freak with a bladed, edged, studded or blunt weapon advances upon them. I would suggest that he [deleted by DPF and demerits next time] and the police are there to to do precisely that (and protect the rest of us from such). This shooting was a bloody tragedy that the AOS shooter will have to remorsefully shoulder for the rest of his life. We shall see if it is a ricochet or a direct hit. But either way, armchair wankers with dodgy histories and axes to grind need to STFU. Rex: that means you.
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January 24, 2009 8:15pm
Rex Widerstrom

DPF: I disagree entirely. The Police’s job is to confront the offender not run away from him.

Always, in every single imagineable situation, even if no human life is at risk?

As dime says, where was the back-up for Abbott? I don’t blame Abbott for panicking but I do blame the hierarchy for putting both Wallace and Abbott in a situation where they both felt (incorrectly, IMHO) that one of them had to come out of the situation dead.

Wallace was in a commercial / industrial area after dark, smashing property not people. Abbott could, and should, have retreated to a safe distance and waited for back up who could then have assisted him in taking down the offender with no harm to anyone bar a few bruises.

OTOH Abbott shouldn’t have been placed in a situation where his adrenalin was pumping, he felt threatened, and felt the only way out was to fire his weapon.

Where was his back up? Off collecting revenue to make the fat bastards at HQ look good to their political masters, I’d imagine.

[DPF: There could be four cops against Wallace. But if he is swinging a baseball bat and refusing to drop it, then I don’t want any of them risking their lives by rushing him. You seem to paint Wallace and Abbott as equals. They were not. Wallace could have ended it at any time by dropping the bat. That is what any sane person would do]
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January 24, 2009 8:19pm
Redbaiter

“Bear in mind that while he’s a Democrat you don’t get to be the Head of the CENTRAL Intelligence Agency by (a) being a liar (b) being a fool (c) allowing petty politics to interfere with your professional service to the POTUS.”

Get off the grass. He was a Clinton appointee. Since when is that any guarantee of integrity or ability?
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January 24, 2009 8:19pm
reid

I don’t imagine that you have ever heard of James Buchanan, or do you think President Bush is worse than him Reid?

Yes I have andrei, I rate Bush worse than him and also worse than Harding.

Here’s an entertaining article on general reasons why.
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January 24, 2009 8:21pm
reid

Get off the grass. He was a Clinton appointee.

Bush asked him to stay on, RB. Any more questions about that?
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January 24, 2009 8:22pm
Redbaiter

“Bush asked him to stay on, RB. Any more questions about that?”

Well, you just said Bush was the worst POTUS in history. I don’t agree, but if he was the idiot you claim, extending Tenet’s term was probably one of the best arguments for your case. Or you could say that Tenet’s firing was one of his best ideas. Either way, you’re fucked Reid. The House Intelligence Committee issued a report criticizing the agency’s human intelligence gathering as “dysfunctional” and averse to risk. That was while Tenet was the head.
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January 24, 2009 8:30pm
reid

Yes he explains all of that, RB, in quite a reasonable way. You should read that book, you might learn something.
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January 24, 2009 8:39pm
AG

“Or you could say that Tenet’s firing was one of his best ideas.”

You do know, of course, that Tenet technically resigned? (‘Though I admit he probably was pushed onto that particular sword). Nevertheless, any doubts about Tenet didn’t stop Bush awarding him the Presidential Medal of Freedom ….

Perhaps Bush should have paid more attention to what the House Intelligence Committee thought … but then, it had a majority of Democrats. So, RB, you would appear to be somewhat fucked also …
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January 24, 2009 8:46pm
big bruv

Cha

Are you seriously trying to defend the actions of scum like Paul Chase, Terrence Thompson and David Gray?

If so you are either an idiot, a brain dead troll or a complete and utter wanker.

Take your pick.
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January 24, 2009 8:57pm
big bruv

“you just said Bush was the worst POTUS in history”

Ha ha, Bush might not have been the best but he is miles better than those darlings of the left JFK and Clinton.
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January 24, 2009 8:59pm
AG

At 8:46 I wrote “…but then, it had a majority of Democrats. So, RB, you would appear to be somewhat fucked also …” This was a mistake. In 2004, the Republicans still were the majority in the House. Nevertheless, the relevant report was approved by the full House in a 360-61 vote, so it represented the views of the Democrats also. So my general point stands.

But I try to admit when I’ve got things wrong.
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January 24, 2009 9:04pm
Redbaiter

Smirk
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January 24, 2009 9:39pm
mara

Redbaiter, you sound much like my old man who was against female pilots and suggested that, in the event of a female flying a plane, all passengers should be reminded of a psalm going something like ..:from ashes you came and to ashes you will return:. He reckoned that their menstrual cycles made them unsuitable for continuous responsibility. Christ, he never even considered menopause!
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January 24, 2009 10:42pm
Rex Widerstrom

gnadsmasher:

Awfully bitter, aren’t we? I simply chose not to have my comments moderated by the one individual (out of four) responsible for that blog as his editing made it appear that I had insulted another commenter when in fact I had posted a comment agreeing with him. If I can’t trust that the blog owner has sufficient grasp of the language not to reverse by 180 degrees the content of comments, I’m not going to risk having something I didn’t write being posted, especially as it appears under my own name. Several commenters politely noted that the sense and context had been lost, and it was the moderator who – characteristically – had a tantrum. AFAIK DPF has never needed to moderate a comment of mine (as I see he did yours), so welcome to the land of irony.

Go back and re-read my comments. Nowhere do I say that police should always retreat, just that in one instance of those listed that was an option. In other situations there may have been other options and in some situations there may be none.

Perhaps in your own little nirvana where Mr Plod gets to control what’s said and shoots those he doesn’t like the look of, “armchair wankers” are forced to STFU. Unfortunately for you and your friends in blue the gradual attrition of our rights by politicians and the police haven’t advanced to that point yet, so I will continue to call them on their judgment. Especially where someone dies. And especially when that death is the manslaughter of an innocent – something other people who’ve committed the same act also have to “shoulder for the rest of their lives”.

The difference is, some of the rest of their life is then spent in jail, after being arrested and charged by… guess who.
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January 24, 2009 10:52pm
Redbaiter

I’m not arguing about the effectiveness of tazers or any of that, I’m just saying that we should be truthful about the real reason that they are being considered and that is to compensate for the lack of strength of women police officers.
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January 24, 2009 10:52pm
Rex Widerstrom

DPF: …Wallace could have ended it at any time by dropping the bat. That is what any sane person would do

Quite. Which suggests Wallace was far from sane. So someone who’s clearly mentally ill and carrying a weapon which only has a damage radius of about eight feet, in an area where no member of the public is in danger, should be shot if he won’t drop the bat?

You say I equate Abbott and Wallace. To some extent I do… both were victims of poor police resource allocation, faulty police training, and the ridiculous belief that the mentally ill are best “cared for” (i.e. ignored) in society – even those who are potentially dangerous. Though of course Abbott was doing his duty and didn’t deserve the personal flak he received over what happened, thus shielding his bosses from blame.

But what you and big bruv seem to be doing… you implicitly, he more explicitly… is equating Wallace and Chase, who posed no immediate threat to anyone, who hadn’t killed anyone and who were carrying, respectively, a bat and a weightlifting bar, with the likes of David Gray and Terrence Thompson, who had already murdered and were almost certain to do so again unless they surrendered or were shot, and who were both armed with guns.

[DPF: A baseball bat is as lethal a weapon as a gun – just a smaller range. The Police could not be certain that Wallace would not come across a member of the public and bash their brains out. Their job was to confront him and stop his illegal rampage. He decided to try and kill the officers doing their job. Not that much different to the other killers except he got stopped before he did.]
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January 24, 2009 11:10pm
Glutaemus Maximus

This is a must read.

A Socialist Hardcore, who got to being a realist.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/4324774/Gordon-Brown-is-using-tax-on-wealthy-for-purely-political-reasons-says-Denis-Healey.html

Shows what we managed to avoid more of when we binned the evil witch.
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January 24, 2009 11:19pm
pushmepullu

Rex, why don’t you come clean? The main reason you dislike the police is [DPF: 50 demerits]
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January 24, 2009 11:29pm
Glutaemus Maximus

Vauxhall aka Holden are now offering new Vectra Diesels at £9999, del mileage only. Although pre-registered.

List price was £18k.

Not quite half price, now there are Astras with £7k off.

The Import centres on the East Coast are also stuffed full of BMW, VW, Merc etc.

Now is a good time to buy a car.

Off to Berlin this Avo.

Should be interesting.

Hotel is near to check-point Charlie.
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January 24, 2009 11:30pm
big bruv

pushme

You are a class A cunt.
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January 24, 2009 11:34pm
reid

Fletch, here’s another reason for my considered current opinion on Bush at al. As you no doubt know, several years of official WH emails went missing covering the period leading up the Iraq war. This is a violation of the Federal Records Management Act which requires such emails to be kept and handed over to the National Archives. Naturally you, as have I, would have been very concerned about this since, although convenient for Bush et al, both of us are no doubt hoping that he would, as the Pres, make every effort strenuously to comply with US Federal law in every way. Unfortunately Bush et al has been curiously resistant toward devoting sufficient resource to investigate this rather curious and unprecedented violation, leaving it up to the courts eventually to make it clear to Bush et al that they weren’t interested in excuses and expected nay demanded full compliance forthwith.

Happily it appears the missing emails have now been found. What a relief, for all. Let’s just hope that none of the critical messages re: Valerie Plame, Iraq-WMD, Iraq-al-Qa’ida etc; are missing. That would be a big surprise and a great big shame, wouldn’t it. Apart from being illegal of course.

Sidenote re: Plame, did you see Cheney’s recent comment that he thought Bush should have pardoned Libby over the Plame matter but didn’t. Those Bush et al people eh, ya gotta laugh.

Last week, a different judge overrode White House objections and ordered the administration to search for information that CREW is seeking on White House visitors during the Bush tenure. Another judge turned aside White House objections to handing copies to aides of President-elect Barack Obama of documents related to the controversial firings of U.S. prosecutors in 2006, which Congress has demanded to see. Still to be decided, possibly in coming days, is a lawsuit by CREW demanding the preservation of vice presidential records that aides to Dick Cheney have said he alone can decide to withhold or discard.

The dispute over recovery of the missing e-mails was provoked by the disclosure four years ago that the White House, in switching to a new internal e-mail system shortly after Bush’s election, had abandoned an automatic archiving system meant to preserve all messages containing official business. Under the new system, any of the 3,000 or so regular White House employees could access e-mail storage files, enabling them to delete messages.

An internal White House report noted in 2005 that e-mails from specific periods appeared to be missing, including key moments related to the invasion of Iraq and to a federal probe of the leak of Valerie Plame Wilson’s classified employment with the CIA. White House officials called that study flawed after congressional investigators released it.

Once the e-mails are transferred to the National Archives, federal law allows them to be requested under the Freedom of Information Act after a five-year interval.

P.S. Remember all those firings of the Federal Prosecutors? Wasn’t that interesting? Wonder why he did that?
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January 25, 2009 12:55am
Rex Widerstrom

Glutaemus Maximus:

That is truly incredible. I remember Denis Healey and that is truly a Damascean conversion. That article ought to be required reading, especially amongst those who assume all wealth is earned speculatively rather than through producing goods, services and jobs (i.e. underpinning the economy).

pushmepullu:

You disappoint me. I can only assume you resort to the most cowardly sort of ad hominem attack because you have no better defence of the police to offer.

Yes, I’d be a fool not to acknowledge that my own personal experience leads me to believe the NZ Police are less than perfect. Incidentally, in the past they charged me with a handful of other offences, none of a similar nature to the one you refer – some violent, some white collar. In every case that got to court I was found not guilty. By your reckoning I must also be guilty of those, because of course the police couldn’t possibly act out of malice. They alone among humanity are above emotion.

Take a leaf out of big bruv’s book (he and I clearly disagree on the issue, judging by his earlier posts) and try and act your age. Unless you are indeed aged 12, of course.

big bruv:

Thank you, you’re a gentleman.

DPF:

I wish I could be as certain as you of the outcome had Wallace not been shot but been left to break a few more windows till police reinforcements arrived. Had Abbott, who was there on the night, been as certain as you then I doubt he’d have such a difficult job coping in the aftermath. What about Chase, then? He didn’t swing the exercise bar… according to the police’s own account he simply stood there holding it, and didn’t drop it when they told him to. But if you’ve ever heard the amount of shouting that goes on when the AOS are breaking your door down, there’s every chance he just didn’t hear in the confusion.
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January 25, 2009 1:29am
pushmepullu

Rex, you know as well as I do that our court system is a shambles, that left wing judges regularly commit social engineering from the bench. Just ask dad for justice for a few choice examples of how the courts have anything but the truth in mind… if you were found not guilty that means nothing but the fact that the judge was a moral relativist who wouldn’t know evil if it smacked him with a wet kipper. Am I to be accused of ad hominem attacks because I believe that those who have commited crimes should be punished, not coddled by a so-called justice system focused on the rights of criminals not victims thanks to nine years of Liarbour manipulation and disdain for the law?

The cops aren’t perfect. Sometimes they make mistakes – tehy are human. But do they deserve to be crucified for them?
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January 25, 2009 4:31am
joeAverage

Ms Clark/Davis
a bright women
but not a REAL women, not to me,something in mans pants
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January 25, 2009 6:50am
thedavincimode

Rex Widerstrom says:

“Duck the axe… he’d then be out of ammo and reduced to throwing clods of earth.”

Well not quite Rex. He still had the prosthetic leg in reserve.
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January 25, 2009 7:09am
joeAverage

Whats the bet , the Fonterra executives wont turn themselves in to the the Chinese(for shooting) I would like this kid killing(we tried to stop them using meliamine YER RIGHT they could have pulled out of the chinese company) price gouging company to lower prices instead of putting it up all the time.
Dairy prices have collapsed ,but fonterra rips us off
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January 25, 2009 7:10am
joeAverage

We have a problem when the police armed offender squad, dosnt know at differance between a young islander and a 50yo offender
REMEMBER sight your target ,check , check again , REMEMDER you are not rambo or dirty harry , KIDS WITH GUNS , ps it could have been your kid folks, no excuse ,rush of blood to the head, poor cop????
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January 25, 2009 8:10am
Ross Miller

GOH … perhaps you are closer to the action than I but do you know how many females therer are in 1 RNZIR and 2/1 RNZIR. I suspect not too many for the reasons you outlined.
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January 25, 2009 9:19am
Brian Smaller

I think you wil find that the young guy got hit by a stray bullet. One of those unfortunate things. The fault lies with the loon who was shooting at people.
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January 25, 2009 9:56am
transmogrifier

What I don’t understand is that – if the sequence of events I read in the Herald is correct (big assumption, I know) – the cops had him at gunpoint at a residential address with no bystanders around, and they allowed him to get into the Skyline, reverse out and take off again. I mean, what the hell?
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January 25, 2009 11:09am
Rex Widerstrom

pushmepullu:

Thanks for responding in a reasoned manner. When you do, I enjoy debating the issues with you.

My reference to ad hominem attacks was purely a response to the fact you felt the need to attack me rather than my argument.

It may surprise you to know I agree with everything you say. The court system is a shambles and guilty people do regularly get off. The corollary of that is that innocent people regularly get dragged through the system, and some found guilty.

The best research estimate for the number of innocent people in Australian jails is 200… based on relative population sizes, that’d suggest 40 innocent people in jails in NZ. Not a lot… unless you’re one of them. And bear in mind that figure is for indictable (serious) crimes which are easily disproved by scientific investigation, leaving an unknown number of wrongful convictions based on he said / she said (or he said / he said) evidence and not empirically provable by either side. Then there’s the people who get bamboozled into pleading to a lesser charge because they believe they won;t get off even though they’re innocent… etc etc.

If I had to guess I’d say roughly 100 people are in our jails who didn’t commit the crime of which they were convicted. Then there’s their families, who are as much victims of the system as the people we commonly call victims.

I do a lot of work in the justice area and talk to victims and victim support groups often. I’m by no means immune to their pain. But that doesn’t have to be redressed through vengeance and for many, that aspect of the system only makes them feel worse (by “vengeance” I don’t mean the prison term, which can be a positive experience if handled properly. It just rarely is).

You suggest I “ask dad4justice”. I have a huge reservoir of sympathy and support for d4j because his experiences support my contention – that the police will target, harass and arrest anyone they don’t like. And if you annoy them – through perfectly legal protest as d4j has done or public criticism as I have done – then you are certain to be amongst those targeted. And every time the police lose a case against you, they become more determined that “you’ve got it coming”.

No, cops don’t deserve to be crucified for their mistakes, they deserve to be treated the same way as you or I. And do you think for one moment that if you were one of the unfortunate people who’ve thought it necessary to fire a weapon or otherwise use deadly force to protect their property, selves and family the police wouldn’t charge you?!

In fact they inevitably charge people who injure or kill defending their homes against invasion. And imagine if you shot your next door neighbour by mistake!

Do you think for one moment the police would be issuing vomit-inducing press releases about how “hard” it was for you, and what you were “suffering”? Do you think they’d hold off charging you with manslaughter, hoping an internal investigation would take the heat off?

Although we have to wait for the outcome of investigations, I’m not aiming my comments at the officer who pulled the trigger but rather those safe beyond the firing line who, as with the Wallace shooting, allowed the situation to develop. transmogrifier makes that point above.

One law for all is all I’m asking for. And for those who consider themselves worthy of imposing those laws upon us, the highest standards of accountability must apply.

thedavincimode:

Damn, I never thought of that. Does that mean anyone with a prosthetic leg can be charged with possession of a dangerous weapon? 😀
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January 25, 2009 2:14pm
wikiriwhis business

Rex,,

Reading your posts with intense interest. The police certainly target their man

Is that one of the reasons you left NZ?
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January 25, 2009 4:47pm
greenfly

“DPF: …Wallace could have ended it at any time by dropping the bat. That is what any sane person would do”
How curious! That’s the very same argument you used to excuse the Israeli/Palestinian situation! I’m seeing a pattern here.. and it doesn’t run very deep.
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January 25, 2009 5:48pm

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