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December 4, 2008 10:37am by David Farrar

General Debate 4 December 2008

Keep forgetting these!

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burt

llew

I said earlier in this thread: “It is time we shook the shit out of the socialist quagmire of one size fits all education.
“

Perhaps in your world boys and girls are exactly the same, have exactly the same educational requirements and respond to exactly the same teaching methods. Perhaps if you were less concerned about wanting status quo because it works for you you might have noticed that I was saying “one size fits all” is crap.

Carry on – you have your opinion and you are not going to listen to others becuase you are right.
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December 4, 2008 2:05pm
Ryan Sproull

Give teachers some credit. They tailor their methods to individual needs as much as their resources allow them to.
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December 4, 2008 2:08pm
burt

Ryan Sproull

I agree, they do the best they can. But in a class of perhaps 32 kids – what chance is there for helping the slow learners and challenging the fast learners….

One size fits all, all 32 can achieve something eh.

I’m married to an x-teacher. The reason she stopped teaching was because the Dept. of Ed. mandate that teachers teach to the middle of the class was exactly what she didn’t want to do. Any plonker can help average people achieve average results.

The education dept charter is: Ensure every child achieves their full potential. Like that is going to happen in classes of 30+ kids with insufficient resources.

It’s not the teachers that are failing, it’s the socialist one size fits all system that fails the teachers, the students and the parents.
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December 4, 2008 2:12pm
AG

RB,

From your contribution to the thread “Frog on Pharmac”, Dec. 1:

“Oh yeah, spelling mistakes. Well you’ve already demonstrated how good you are at picking what’s important.”

By their words ye shall know them …
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December 4, 2008 2:13pm
llew

No, but in this case they’ve exposed one of the fools of the left.
.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/12/frog_on_pharmac.html#comment-514424

“You’re is a contraction of “you are”. You meant “your””

Oh yeah, spelling mistakes. Well you’ve already demonstrated how good you are at picking what’s important.

Hypocrite.
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December 4, 2008 2:14pm
Ryan Sproull

The education dept charter is: Ensure every child achieves their full potential. Like that is going to happen in classes of 30+ kids with insufficient resources.

It’s not the teachers that are failing, it’s the socialist one size fits all system that fails the teachers, the students and the parents.

Wouldn’t sufficient resources address the problem?
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December 4, 2008 2:17pm
burt

Ryan Sproull

Yes and no. In a world where all teachers are the same and cannot be rewarded on merit what incentive, apart from passion for their job, is there?

A massive part of teacher training is recognition that people learn differently, have different absorption rates and abilities. Yet teachers all want to join a union and be paid the same. Muppet mentality created by a socialist system.

It requires more than just more money, it requires us to acknowledge the most basic truth about humans – we are not all of the same average academic ability and we need to recognise and reward success even if it highlights failure.
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December 4, 2008 2:22pm
Johnboy

“Wouldn’t sufficient resources address the problem?”

As they would every problem. Where do you suggest the money comes from. Health,police,defence,perhaps the ACC non-earners fund?
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December 4, 2008 2:23pm
Ryan Sproull

A massive part of teacher training is recognition that people learn differently, have different absorption rates and abilities. Yet teachers all want to join a union and be paid the same.

Eh?
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December 4, 2008 2:24pm
llew

Here’s that link Red. Check out Murray’s response a few posts down.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/11/taxpayers_pay_for_pi_to_watch_tv.html#comment-513123

llew

Perhaps in your world boys and girls are exactly the same, have exactly the same educational requirements and respond to exactly the same teaching methods. Perhaps if you were less concerned about wanting status quo because it works for you you might have noticed that I was saying “one size fits all” is crap.

Carry on – you have your opinion and you are not going to listen to others becuase you are right.

Good grief Burt, what did you say your IQ was? I challenged your generalisation, that’s all. You then went on to admit that when you said “anybody will” you really meant “Parents of boys will”.

Get over it.
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December 4, 2008 2:26pm
Redbaiter

“Hypocrite”

Nope. Not the same Llew. Whereas my mistake was merely carelessness, yours was deliberate. There’s that lack of critical thinking skills again.
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December 4, 2008 2:26pm
burt

Ryan Sproull

What mechanism has a state school to retain an excellent teacher apart from promoting them out of the classroom?

Can they pay them more than the piss poor teacher in the class next door who has served as many years?

One size fits all… Bulk funding – bad … yada yada socialist system just wants everything all the same because it is easy to administer.
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December 4, 2008 2:26pm
Redbaiter

“Here’s that link Red.”

Thought so. Asking an innocent question becomes stating a fact. Only in leftist la la land.
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December 4, 2008 2:28pm
Ryan Sproull

What mechanism has a state school to retain an excellent teacher apart from promoting them out of the classroom?

Can they pay them more than the piss poor teacher in the class next door who has served as many years?

One size fits all… Bulk funding – bad … yada yada socialist system just wants everything all the same because it is easy to administer.

Not all teachers are paid the same, though.
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December 4, 2008 2:30pm
burt

llew

Have you spent much time examining the assessment systems, discussed them with the bright folk from Otago assessment research unit? I have. But carry on.
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December 4, 2008 2:30pm
llew

Nope. Not the same Llew. Whereas my mistake was merely carelessness, yours was deliberate.

Securing the world from socialism, one hyphen at a time 🙂 There’s that lack of thinking skills again.

I’m sorry, that’s rank hypocrisy.
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December 4, 2008 2:31pm
burt

Ryan Sproull

Correct. Private school teachers earn more than state school teachers and they don’t tend to jump on planes to Aussie as often as state school teachers.
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December 4, 2008 2:31pm
llew

Have you spent much time examining the assessment systems, discussed them with the bright folk from Otago assessment research unit? I have. But carry on.

I’m thinking you exaggerated that IQ score Burt. Did those assessment people tell you about generalisations?

What is it you think I’m saying here? I’m just calling you on that “Anybody will tell you” statement that was clearly, and admittedly (by you) false.
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December 4, 2008 2:33pm
Redbaiter

“I’m sorry, that’s rank hypocrisy.”

I’m sorry too. When I said ‘deliberate’, I should have said ‘ignorance’. Because that is the real difference.
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December 4, 2008 2:35pm
Ryan Sproull

Correct. Private school teachers earn more than state school teachers and they don’t tend to jump on planes to Aussie as often as state school teachers.

Yes, because private schools are better resourced, because they are populated with children of people who can afford to pay more for a better education. But I meant within the state education system – not all teachers are paid the same.
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December 4, 2008 2:35pm
llew

Asking an innocent question becomes stating a fact. Only in leftist la la land.

Innocent? I can imagine your apoplexy if someone “innocently” asked if you were a paedophile. Why don’t you tell us more about this La la land you live in?

Hypocritical bully. A coward too.
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December 4, 2008 2:37pm
Ross Miller

Any fellow investor in Dominion Finance Ltd who, having read the letter from Rod Pardington dated 28 November 2008 and would like to join a discussion on the merits of reserecting ‘burning at the stake’ for company directors who f**k up big time, is welcome to contact me.
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December 4, 2008 2:38pm
AG

RB:

How can you divine motive/intent via plain text?

Burt:

“we are not all of the same average academic ability and we need to recognise and reward success even if it highlights failure.”

I’m unclear who really would dispute this in the abstract. But it depends what you mean by “recognise and reward success”. if you want a system that simply hands out a few “you are so special” prizes to the top, top students, then that is one thing. If you want a system that understands a wide range of skills are required in the modern economy, and that being able to do those things moderately well is of value to the individual and society at large, and that individual kids should be recognised for reaching that standard, then that is another.

Anyway, what’s all your angsting about high school performance really worth? If your kids are really as smart as you seem to think they are (and aren’t we smug about that, BTW!), they’ll go on to University. And there no-one will care at all about their stellar high school “achievements” … nor will the exam cramming techniques their private school taught them help much at all. So my advice is, go spend more time with them finding out what interests them, encourage them to pursue that for its own sake, and read for pleasures sake alone. All that will help far more in the long run than paying large sums so you can boast about how fantastically smart your little boys are.

PS: You brought your kids into this thread, not me. So if you don’t like/want advice, leave them out of it.
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December 4, 2008 2:41pm
llew

I’m sorry too. When I said ‘deliberate’, I should have said ‘ignorance’. Because that is the real difference.

Well you’ve already demonstrated how good you are at picking what’s important.
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December 4, 2008 2:41pm
Johnboy

“Any fellow investor in Dominion Finance Ltd who, having read the letter from Rod Pardington dated 28 November 2008 and would like to join a discussion on the merits of reserecting ‘burning at the stake’ for company directors who f**k up big time, is welcome to contact me.”

If they are catholics see David c.
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December 4, 2008 2:42pm
burt

llew

No I didn’t say that at all – you read what you want to read. If I had girls I would probably leave them in the state system because girls are out performing boys in state school. Perhaps you don’t care about that having girls – sorry not all kids are girls.

Ryan Sproull

Agree not all teachers are paid the same. Length of service and the age of the kids they teach comes into it as well. However is it possible for an excellent year 8 teacher in a state school to earn a lot more than a hopeless year 8 teacher in a state school.

AG.

Overstate… OK whatever you say. You miss a very valid issue about going to university. Perhaps if you check the world university rankings and see where our best university rates worldwide you will appreciate why excellent high school results might be important.
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December 4, 2008 2:46pm
Redbaiter

“Hypocritical bully. A coward too.”

You must be unnaturally attracted to them then. Or though how I could be a bully when the essence of bullying is the victim’s inability to escape his torment I don’t know, seeing as nobody is forcing you to read my messages.

Unless as I’ve already suggested Llew, its a psychiatric disorder you’re suffering from. Have you been checked recently for Obsessive Neurosis?
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December 4, 2008 2:46pm
Ryan Sproull

Agree not all teachers are paid the same. Length of service and the age of the kids they teach comes into it as well. However is it possible for an excellent year 8 teacher in a state school to earn a lot more than a hopeless year 8 teacher in a state school.

That’s true. What kind of teacher assessments would you like to see reflected in the pay scale?
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December 4, 2008 2:50pm
llew

No I didn’t say that at all – you read what you want to read.

I read this.

Anybody who has bright kids in a mix of private and state education will tell you similar stories.

And obviously, that’s not what you meant. But still, I mentioned it before you qualified it. Now you have made your position clear. Cheers.
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December 4, 2008 2:51pm
AG

Burt,

“Overstate… OK whatever you say. You miss a very valid issue about going to university. Perhaps if you check the world university rankings and see where our best university rates worldwide you will appreciate why excellent high school results might be important.”

No problem – just pay for them to go to Harvard or Yale. They’re smart enough, right? It’ll cost a bit more, but that’s what the market demands.

Or, of course, National could pump some more money into our Universities, to match overseas funding levels. Or take the lid of student fees. Oh, wait … it bottled that challenge.
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December 4, 2008 2:52pm
burt

Ryan Sproull

I don’t have an answer for that. Performance measurement of teachers is not something I know about other than how well my kids are doing in their class. However like all things socialist, because it is tricky state education takes the easy to administer option and pretends they are all the same. IMHO – wrong way to deal with the problem as it creates mediocre teaching standards.
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December 4, 2008 2:53pm
llew

Or though how I could be a bully when the essence of bullying is the victim’s inability to escape his torment I don’t know

Yeah, you said that before – and it’s twaddle. It has nothing to do with the victim’s inability to escape. Get thee to a dictionary. Or give me evidence you’re right & I’ll acknowledge it.
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December 4, 2008 2:54pm
burt

AG

A scholarship to Harvard or Yale would be nice, but they will need excellent results from high school and they will need to do well in the qualifying exams. “Achieved” in NCEA is not going to get them there. Sorry to be outside the “one size fits all” box, I appreciate it irks people who hate to see other people do better than average but I’m not holding my kids back to make average kids fell better about being average.
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December 4, 2008 2:56pm
Ryan Sproull

I don’t have an answer for that. Performance measurement of teachers is not something I know about other than how well my kids are doing in their class. However like all things socialist, because it is tricky state education takes the easy to administer option and pretends they are all the same. IMHO – wrong way to deal with the problem as it creates mediocre teaching standards.

So it’s at least possible that they’re doing the best they can. Even how well kids are doing isn’t necessarily an indicator of the skill or dedication of a teacher, because – as you point out – not all kids are the same, and some won’t perform as well as others in academic fields no matter what kind of teacher they have.

Actually, I shouldn’t be too concrete about that, but it seems to be the received wisdom.

If you can afford to send your kids to a private school, might as well do so. Though someone earlier in the thread said one of the reasons they send their kids to a private school is because they want them “well socialised”. Hmm.
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December 4, 2008 2:57pm
getstaffed

ok, time for me to wade in here. I’m the chair of an integrated school board of trustees and my wife is one of those excellent teachers for whom the next step is out of the classroom. a few thoughts…

1. my wife teaches multiple levels within each year group, and for each subject. so the teach-to-the-middle approach isn’t anything she is doing. in fact in one subject she has individual teaching plans to cater for each student’s different learning style. The workload is enormous!

2. there is now evidence (albeit well suppressed) that independent schools deliver better education than state schools comparable by locate, size, decile rating etc. Steve Mahary quietly started some enquires into why this might be, and how state schools could learn from this. I think this may have been a politically unacceptable piece of research. Whatever, it was not progressed.

3. I challenge anyone to model the cost vs outcomes (yes, even NCEA) of state vs integrated vs private schools. My own research, admittedly two years ago, showed that the education outcomes per dollar spent were best for private, next best for integrated and worst for state schools. So if NZ wants to see kids improve their readiness for life in a globally connected world, then some relatively straightforward research on what works and doesn’t today would be a good start.
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December 4, 2008 2:57pm
Brian Smaller

“Yes, because private schools are better resourced, because they are populated with children of people who can afford to pay more for a better education.”

Really? I work up to three jobs to pay for my kids to be in private school. Punative taxes take 40% of what I earn and I still pay a chunk for other people’s kids to be educated while they buy consumer goods I don’t have the wherewithal to buy and have overseas holidays. Most people I know don’t value their kids education in reality. They just expect that they will be educated to a 21st C standard at state factory schools. The fact that somewhere between 20 and 40% come out of college functionally illiterate should concern them.
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December 4, 2008 2:59pm
llew

Getstaffed – interesting.

what’s an “integrated school” though?
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December 4, 2008 3:02pm
Redbaiter

“Or give me evidence you’re right & I’ll acknowledge it.”

Moron. People cannot be bullied if they can escape it. To suggest otherwise is just more PC crap, and is yet another indication of how leftists are fucking up our language as well as our school system.
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December 4, 2008 3:02pm
Johnboy

“Or, of course, National could pump some more money into our Universities, to match overseas funding levels.”

AG You still have not answered my earlier post:

“Wouldn’t sufficient resources address the problem?”

As they would every problem. Where do you suggest the money comes from. Health,police,defence,perhaps the ACC non-earners fund?
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December 4, 2008 3:03pm
AG

Burt,

” I appreciate it irks people who hate to see other people do better than average but I’m not holding my kids back to make average kids fell better about being average.”

Who is saying you have to hold your kids back? What law/regulation/rule prohibits sending your kids to private school? All this angst, when you are already getting what you want! Seems the real problem is that the rest of the world won’t do what you want it to. So who is wanting to box who in?

As for scholarships, how to account for the many, many NZ students who go to US Universities every year for post-grad research? Such mangy, useless Universities we have, yet the US schools (including Yale and Harvard) keep on accepting the outputs! Are these institutions stupid? Don’t they read the ranking tables (created how, Burt? Studied the methodology carefully?) that show we are crap? Or, perhaps, are we actually quite good, but to admit that would be accept that a state funded institution is capable of excelling, and clearly that can never happen, so ideology demands black become white and up become down.
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December 4, 2008 3:04pm
Brian Smaller

getstaffed – the main reason, in my opinion, is that at independent schools there is an expectation that kids will do well. That is from both parents and teachers. Kids are wonderful things. They tend to live up to whatever expectations you have (or at least try to reach them). If you don’t have any, they wont disappoint. The average at my daughter’s school is up at the 75-80th percentile of State schools. They work them hard.
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December 4, 2008 3:05pm
Paul Williams

Australian education is fully controlled by Australians. Therefore, it’s an Australian policy.

I resent part of that.

Llew, you drew the redbaiter short-straw?

llew

Have you spent much time examining the assessment systems, discussed them with the bright folk from Otago assessment research unit? I have. But carry on.

I’ll play along Burt, I have… spent time examining assessment systems that is… what’s your point?

It’s not the teachers that are failing, it’s the socialist one size fits all system that fails the teachers, the students and the parents.

Oh and Burt, no our kids aren’t failing, they’re doing quite well by independent and international measures; your argument only makes sense if we ignore the facts.
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December 4, 2008 3:05pm
llew

The fact that somewhere between 20 and 40% come out of college functionally illiterate should concern them.

It should. But in practise, I think most parents are only concerned as to how their kids are doing – the functionally illiterate kids probably have functionally illiterate parents who don’t care. (he says, merrily generalising with the best of ’em).
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December 4, 2008 3:05pm
AG

Johnboy,

Money for Universities would come from reducing the pension. It’s too high. It lets old people live too long. It is rational to reduce it.
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December 4, 2008 3:09pm
Ryan Sproull

Really? I work up to three jobs to pay for my kids to be in private school. Punative taxes take 40% of what I earn and I still pay a chunk for other people’s kids to be educated while they buy consumer goods I don’t have the wherewithal to buy and have overseas holidays.

There are people who choose not to send their kids to private schools, yes. But the people who can’t afford to (ie., most people) also can’t afford to have overseas holidays.

Most people I know don’t value their kids education in reality.

Find better friends?
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December 4, 2008 3:10pm
llew

To suggest otherwise is just more PC crap,

Are you a product of the education system that you so revile? And you call me a moron. (Oh wait, that was you debating the issue).

So you come along & kick sand in someone’s face, call them all sorts of names & offer that when the revolution comes they’ll be the first against the wall – and because that poor sap can get up & leave, he’s not being bullied?

You are not qualified to tell us about education (nor about anything much). Go away bully.
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December 4, 2008 3:10pm
Johnboy

“what’s an “integrated school” though?”

One that teaches the state approved curriculum in return for some state funding I believe hence being cheaper than a full private school. ie: St.Orans as opposed to Chilton.
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December 4, 2008 3:11pm
burt

Paul Williams

My point is that most people have got no idea what assessment systems are measuring. It’s undeniable that today’s assessment systems are more rounded than the assessment systems we had say 30 years ago. However when a major prerequisite of an assessment system is that it produces equal results for boys and girls, and it fails that objective somebody needs to stop the pendulum in the middle rather than having it swing like fashion from side to side while it’s trying to achieve some utopian social objective.
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December 4, 2008 3:12pm
llew

Ah – thanks Johnboy.
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December 4, 2008 3:13pm
big bruv

Getstaffed

Thanks for that insightful post, I have to say that I found this part……… “Steve Mahary quietly started some enquires into why this might be, and how state schools could learn from this. I think this may have been a politically unacceptable piece of research. Whatever, it was not progressed”……… to be the most concerning and the overriding reason why the low life Labour party should NEVER be allowed to govern this country again.

I find it sickening that Labour and its apologists at the Standard can and do use our kids to further their evil left wing ideology, these people are the lowest form of life and should be exposed and eradicated.
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December 4, 2008 3:13pm
Johnboy

“Money for Universities would come from reducing the pension. It’s too high. It lets old people live too long. It is rational to reduce it.”

What a card you are AG though you have a good point that could be adapted. We could shoot all the beneficaries and state house tenants and then fund the best education system in the world. Not a bad idea at all!
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December 4, 2008 3:16pm
burt

Paul Williams

In short, I don’t understand why NZ needs to have and enforce the use of it’s own assessment systems. Cambridge or IB are perfectly good systems and the money we save by not building and tuning our own systems would be much better spent on getting good educational outcomes and providing better resources in classrooms.
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December 4, 2008 3:18pm
Redbaiter

“So you come along & kick sand in someone’s face, call them all sorts of names & offer that when the revolution comes they’ll be the first against the wall – and because that poor sap can get up & leave, he’s not being bullied?”

No. He’s being assaulted. Bullying occurs over an extended period. Days weeks months or more, and the essence is its repetitiveness and the inability of the victim to escape.

So anyway, where and when did big bad Redbaiter do all of the above to you, you poor wee fellah? Have you told your Mummy about it??
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December 4, 2008 3:19pm
Paul Williams

Burt said:

However when a major prerequisite of an assessment system is that it produces equal results for boys and girls, and it fails that objective somebody needs to stop the pendulum in the middle rather than having it swing like fashion from side to side while it’s trying to achieve some utopian social objective.

Can you be more specific Burt? What assessment system are you talking about?

Llew said:

You are not qualified to tell us about education (nor about anything much). Go away bully.

This is where Red comes to deal with his real life frustrations however; a place where he can anonymously fulminate over his life’s injustices at the expense of others.
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December 4, 2008 3:20pm
Johnboy

Would not fit in with left wing dogma Burt.
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December 4, 2008 3:20pm
Redbaiter

“Oh and Burt, no our kids aren’t failing, they’re doing quite well by independent and international measures;”

UTTER UTTER UTTER CRAP- (maybe against the standards of other socialist fucked education systems.)
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December 4, 2008 3:21pm
Danny-boy

‘Baiter’s provided a definition of bully so meaninglessly narrow, it could only occur in a prison or Josef Fritzel’s dungeon. (Yet, at 4,622 posts, he makes a compellin’ case as someone with an “inability to escape”.) Ya’d think he’d wear the epithet with pride since he does seem to be of the Robert “Winning Through Intimidation” Ringer school of (un)think, which amounts to not much more than relentlessly harpin’ on the same tired memes expressed with a mixture o’ faux-outrage an’ contempt, with a few childish insults thrown in fer good measure.
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December 4, 2008 3:23pm
Paul Williams

Burt said:

In short, I don’t understand why NZ needs to have and enforce the use of it’s own assessment systems. Cambridge or IB are perfectly good systems and the money we save by not building and tuning our own systems would be much better spent on getting good educational outcomes and providing better resources in classrooms.

Ahh, that’s it. Ok. And the Otago academics told you the IB’s and Cambridge exams are good did they? Times have changed. Odd that NZ schools have done well in all those international studies then?
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December 4, 2008 3:23pm
Paul Williams

UTTER UTTER UTTER CRAP- (maybe against the statndards of other socialist fucked education systems.)

And that’d be your informed, evidenced-based expert judgment then hey? I’d welcome your insights on which non-socialist fucked education systems we should examine… I’ve got time to read Red, it’s kinda job-related.
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December 4, 2008 3:25pm
paradigm

Atten: Ryan Spoull and other soft bastards

Any student who has a mental breakdown from seeing corrections in red ink is either
a) in need of psychiatric care
b) a victim of a severely deficient educational system that does not teach them about winning and losing, about how to take constructive criticism (which is essentially what bad marks and red ink are) and use it to improve one’s self, and in doing so become a winner.
or most likely c) (a) as a result of (b)

I would further note that I have never seen a school child, primary, intermediate or secondary, have a nervous breakdown because they saw a red stop sign.

PS Harden up. You are an embarrasement to the country.

Atten:Similarly soft people who claim only right wing economics is taught in high school

Economic concepts may seem right wing to you, as most left wing concepts have little to do with reality. I would note however that concepts such as “equity” and internallising external costs through taxation (such as a tax on polution), both of which tend to be strongly associated with the left wing, are taught in high school economics. I suspect the greater problem is that economics is not mandantory: Thus the majority of voters dont realise why dropping taxes will have a beneficial long term effect on the economy.
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December 4, 2008 3:25pm
llew

No. He’s being assaulted. Bullying occurs over an extended period. Days weeks months or more, and the essence is its repetitiveness and the inability of the victim to escape.

Please don’t deign to tell us about the education systems’ failings, you’re proof enough.

So anyway, where and when did big bad Redbaiter do all of the above to you, you poor wee fellah? Have you told your Mummy about it??

So you don’t know the difference between literal & hypothetical? And Redbaiter, you sound JUST like the fat bully at college with that “mummy” crap. Just like him.

A bully. Feel free to go away now. Thanks for playing, but we don’t like bullies.
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December 4, 2008 3:25pm
llew

This is where Red comes to deal with his real life frustrations however; a place where he can anonymously fulminate over his life’s injustices at the expense of others.

Actually, that’s a far more accurate definition of a bully than Redbaiter’s self serving tripe.
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December 4, 2008 3:26pm
AG

llew,

Seconded. RB – even a loser should know when to quit. And believe me, son, you are a loser.
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December 4, 2008 3:28pm
llew

Any student who has a mental breakdown from seeing corrections in red ink is either
a) in need of psychiatric care
b) a victim of a severely deficient educational system that does not teach them about winning and losing, about how to take constructive criticism (which is essentially what bad marks and red ink are) and use it to improve one’s self, and in doing so become a winner.
or most likely c) (a) as a result of (b)

(d) Australian.
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December 4, 2008 3:28pm
burt

Paul Williams

Ahh, that’s it. Ok. And the Otago academics told you the IB’s and Cambridge exams are good did they?

No, quite the opposite actually. But their reasoning was interesting and I learned a lot about why we have our own assessment systems. Personally I don’t think tweaking assessment systems with each change of govt is a good idea. Naturally people who design and measure home grown assessment systems will disagree with me on this.
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December 4, 2008 3:29pm
llew

Similarly soft people who claim only right wing economics is taught in high school

And what about the simple minded folk who claim only socialist indoctrination takes place?
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December 4, 2008 3:31pm
william

Can someone give me an email for Cameron Slater…. I want to tell him that I can’t read anything on his whaleoil site …. which seems to happen quite often as he is always changing the sites specs.
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December 4, 2008 3:35pm
llew

Personally I don’t think tweaking assessment systems with each change of govt is a good idea.

Neither do I – my late dad (some 30 years ago) had a theory (brought on by the advent of New Math) that every few years some new senior appointment to the Ministry of Education, would seize on some initiative from overseas & implement it here to further their career, regardless of whether the initiative (eg, New Math) had been discredited & shelved elsewhere.
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December 4, 2008 3:35pm
Redbaiter

Dannyboy, has anyone ever told you your affected accent makes you come across as a halfwit? Oh, I get it. Sorry.
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December 4, 2008 3:37pm
Redbaiter

“And believe me, son, you are a loser.”

Yeah of course, and you’re the epitome of objective thought on the issue.
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December 4, 2008 3:38pm
Redbaiter

“we don’t like bullies”

Wow, Schizophrenia as well as Obsessive Neurosis. A sad case.
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December 4, 2008 3:40pm
burt

llew

That is exactly what I’m talking about. Just watch National put their flavour into education and then watch it be changed again when they eventually get biffed out.
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December 4, 2008 3:40pm
Paul Williams

Neither do I – my late dad (some 30 years ago) had a theory (brought on by the advent of New Math) that every few years some new senior appointment to the Ministry of Education, would seize on some initiative from overseas & implement it here to further their career, regardless of whether the initiative (eg, New Math) had been discredited & shelved elsewhere.

Astute man then; his observations may well be true beyond the beautiful shoreline of Aotearoa.

I was pleased that the scholarship disaster, circa 2001, didn’t lead to a wholesale revamp of NCEA mind…
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December 4, 2008 3:40pm
llew

Dannyboy, has anyone ever told you your affected accent makes you come across as a halfwit?

So take that Danny Boy. Uncle RB, the Master of Wit and Wisdom has spoken. I’m in awe of the debating prowess – learn that in school?
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December 4, 2008 3:41pm
Redbaiter

Actually, I do have to go now Llew, but if its too much for you to handle, I can arrange for someone to post under my handle.
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December 4, 2008 3:42pm
burt

Paul Williams

“I was pleased that the scholarship disaster, circa 2001, didn’t lead to a wholesale revamp of NCEA mind…” Yet!
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December 4, 2008 3:42pm
PhilBest

goodgod (780) Vote: Add rating5 Subtract rating 0 Says:
December 4th, 2008 at 1:48 pm

http://www.howobamagotelected.com/

“Now that is funny shit! hahaa ok well it would be if it didn’t have such serious implications. I imagine a similar exercise in NZ would reveal the same ignorance.

well now, general debate has jumped off to a great start…….”

Thank you, Goodgod. Spread that web address and video, everyone. As you say, Goodgod, “funny shit…….if it didn’t have such serious implications…….”

It is a serious mistake for DPF to leave putting up a general debate for any longer than 48 hours………it gets off to such a great start that no-one can be bothered following it all to its end.
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December 4, 2008 3:45pm
llew

Wow, Schizophrenia as well as Obsessive Neurosis. A sad case.

Ha ha! You don’t know what schizophrenia is either. On a roll today.
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December 4, 2008 3:47pm
Redbaiter

“Ha ha! You don’t know what schizophrenia is either. On a roll today.”

Ok then Llew, how many of you are posting under the name Llew? (the ‘we’ and ‘us’ they keep referring to)
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December 4, 2008 3:50pm
llew

(the ‘we’ and ‘us’ they keep referring to)

Homing in on the important stuff like an exocet. You can take it that “we” represents everyone on this thread you’ve bullied & abused. “You” is “you” a hypocritical bully with only one axe to grind.

Schizophrenia does not mean split personality, it’s a misapprehension held by the uneducated.

Besides, you only said that to deflect. As always. Weren’t you going somewhere? Fuck off & go there.
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December 4, 2008 3:56pm
llew

Now he’s gone, we can have some fun at his expense (mouahaha)

Rabid Tree
Rare Bidet
Retard Be I

http://wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=redbaiter&t=1000
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December 4, 2008 4:09pm
burt

llew

You missed this one: Retard Be I

Edit: You found that one.
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December 4, 2008 4:12pm
llew

Edit: You found that one.

Just in time before the edit period timed out.
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December 4, 2008 4:14pm
Danny-boy

I can arrange for someone to post under my handle.

Ya don’t need ta do that, me old pal:

“Lies. Damn lies. Yet another example of the socialist academia-mainstream media conspiracy to elect Barack Hussein Obama, which the world will come to know as the worst administration in history. Do you disagree? Half-witted moron. Clearly you’ve been indoctrinated by the communist education system – one goose-step from the Hitler Jugen. [sic – Jugend has a d. If yer gonna Godwin, do it proper-like.]”
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December 4, 2008 4:15pm
llew

Ok then Llew, how many of you are posting under the name Llew?

Just me, but I have a 136 strong support crew – writers, editors, drivers, caterers, fluffers, animators & the guy who gets the coffee.
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December 4, 2008 4:17pm
tknorriss

A little bit late in the day getting into this. However, it is a topic that interests me.

I think the current education system is very good for some, but lets a lot down. For instance, it is no secret that boys are now lagging well behind girls in academic achievement.

I think for many students there needs to be more direct application of the principles learned. For instance, some kids might learn maths in conjunction with an engineering course. They would need to use calculations to build practical things rather than just learning theory. There is a lot of research into learning transfer etc that would support this style of learning, so I think we need more of it.
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December 4, 2008 4:23pm
llew

I think for many students there needs to be more direct application of the principles learned. For instance, some kids might learn maths in conjunction with an engineering course.

Interesting idea – I wonder if it’s practised in any form already? Relevance used to be an issue for me at school, the long suffering Chem teacher would tell me that “Titration is very important to industries like cheese making”, Whereas it just looked like a slow & tedious way to make a flask of clear liquid turn suddenly bright pink, and I didn’t become a cheesemaker.

To some extent, subjects like, tech drawing, wood & metal work must be teaching maths through application?
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December 4, 2008 4:31pm
Grant Michael McKenna

What I have always thought amusing about sloths- both the two and three toed varieties- is that they ferment their food in their stomachs. Basically, a sloth is slow- and stoned.

We now return you to your normal programming.
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December 4, 2008 4:43pm
bobux

On the off-chance that anyone who has slogged through screeds of pointless insults wants something better to do, the Treasury Briefing to Incoming Minister (‘the BIM’, in Wellyspeak) is a positive mine of interesting information and opinion.

Available at no cost here:

http://beehive.govt.nz/sites/all/files/Treasury_BIM.pdf
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December 4, 2008 4:46pm
radar

One wonders what drives Redbaiter to pick so many fights in cyberspace. He comes to this blog, writes something that no sane human being can agree with (hence his using a pseudonym), and then insults, argues, lies, and generally acts like a twelve year old boy. It would appear to be something on an obsession in that he posts so many comments and is so argumentative and insulting all the time. He even refers to himself in the fourth person (referring to himself as “Redbaiter”). Trying to overome some long-held insecurity with pointless hyper-agression? It’s pathetic. But funny at the same time. Keep it up!
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December 4, 2008 4:52pm
Grant Michael McKenna

What is the “fourth person”?
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December 4, 2008 4:59pm
Danyl Mclauchlan

What is the “fourth person”?

Danyl thinks he means third person.
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December 4, 2008 5:04pm
big bruv

radar

“One wonders what drives Redbaiter to pick so many fights in cyberspace.”

From what I have seen he does so because 1, He can and 2, He makes mincemeat of those left wingers dumb enough to take him on.

While many may not like the way he puts his message across you cannot deny that he is right most of the time.
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December 4, 2008 5:07pm
Glutaemus Maximus

I am the organism, and NOT the mind.

The mind is my own, but different. It is for me to give it away at any point.

I think therefore, I am not pissed to-day!

John Paul Lennonski
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December 4, 2008 5:11pm
Grant Michael McKenna

Grant googled “fourth person” and found a Wikipedia entry which stated that the term “is also sometimes used for the category of indefinite or generic referents, that work like ‘one’ in English phrases such as ‘one should be prepared’ or ‘people’ in ‘people say that…'”.
Radar may well have been indicating that he sees Redbaiter as being an “indefinite or generic referent”. All a bit too subtle for me, really- especially as I’m trying to read the Treasury Briefing [thanks bobux].
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December 4, 2008 5:13pm
oranjemakker

Does anyone know what the actual expenditure per student is in NZ state schools? To get an accurate number you would then need to add onto that the cost of all the useless bureaucrats in the MOE. I guess total education budget divided by students in state education would be reasonably accurate benchmark.

I have googled it and cant seem to find it.

Couple of thoughts:
Regarding some of the lefties on this string, it was mentioned earlier that in state schools teachers may get paid more due to lenght of service, and implied this was a good thing. This is exactly the problem with state system and socialists. Length of service should have nothing to do with pay. Of course, a more experienced teacher may have better outcomes so should be paid more IF they are berforming better. Rewards should be for performance not service time. Thats all there is to it. These same muppets who come up with this probably believe that employees in private companies should be paid on length of service… typical union bullshit that ignores reality in every conveivable way.

If you want a further example of how out of touch and ideological educational institutions are, there was a comment last nights late news on TV1, regarding fatties being rejected entrance to NZ due to health risk (good!). Anyway, one real tubby was mentioned and interviewed as having been initially refused a visa but then brought in by Massey Uni to teach, and I’m not kidding, Weight Identity!!!! What a load of absolute crap.

So a challenge to the lefties on this string, can you plase justify the logic for
a: paying teachers based on service not quality
b: why universities deserve any more taxpayer funds when they teach absolute socialist drivel like “weight identity”?
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December 4, 2008 5:16pm
Ryan Sproull

Atten: Ryan Spoull and other soft bastards

Any student who has a mental breakdown from seeing corrections in red ink is either
a) in need of psychiatric care
b) a victim of a severely deficient educational system that does not teach them about winning and losing, about how to take constructive criticism (which is essentially what bad marks and red ink are) and use it to improve one’s self, and in doing so become a winner.
or most likely c) (a) as a result of (b)

I would further note that I have never seen a school child, primary, intermediate or secondary, have a nervous breakdown because they saw a red stop sign.

PS Harden up. You are an embarrasement to the country.

Paradigm,

Since you addressed this to me personally, could you explain where I said anything in support of the ban on red ink?

Because I didn’t. Read closely to avoid embarrasement.

Atten:Similarly soft people who claim only right wing economics is taught in high school

Economic concepts may seem right wing to you, as most left wing concepts have little to do with reality. I would note however that concepts such as “equity” and internallising external costs through taxation (such as a tax on polution), both of which tend to be strongly associated with the left wing, are taught in high school economics. I suspect the greater problem is that economics is not mandantory: Thus the majority of voters dont realise why dropping taxes will have a beneficial long term effect on the economy.

Paradigm, you could be right. Is English currently mandantory? It’s a bit of an embarrasement that I don’t know.
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December 4, 2008 5:21pm
Rex Widerstrom

Some of this is comedy gold, as well as being a stimulating debate… I’d love to bring it to TV – kind of like “Big Brother” but with a brain. But I wonder how many commenters would turn out to be nothing at all like the personas they project here? 😀
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December 4, 2008 5:21pm
oranjemakker

Whoa… I tink I found her info and a pic http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/about-us/news/article.cfm?mnarticle=weight-fixation-sends-unhealthy-messages-05-11-2008

Her name is Dr. Cat Pausé.. Really, that IS her name!!
Excerpt:
Dr Pausé challenged her students and colleagues to examine the “obesity myth”, which she says wrongly suggests that fat is unhealthy, that body size is a predictor of health and that there are permanent forms of weight-loss available.

“It is irresponsible to assume that all fat people are unhealthy, just as it is irresponsible to assume that all thin people are healthy,” Dr Pausé says.

She is project coordinator for the Adult Identity Development Project, which collected data on identity development, maintenance and revision in adult women and men for more than 20 years. Her focus is on weight identity, a small component of body image/identity.

Hilarious, apart from the fact that we are paying taxes for her salary (and her cream pies!!!!)
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December 4, 2008 5:22pm
Grant Michael McKenna

I personally have sequestrated 35 kg of carbon. I expect a tax rebate for my self sacrifice; others suggest that this is fat, but I do it for the nation- for the world!

Oh, and Rex- I am actually a 6’2″ bodybuilder with a post-doctoral degree in advanced quantum astrophysics- yeah right.
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December 4, 2008 5:32pm

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