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November 11, 2008 12:37pm by David Farrar

General Debate 11 November 2008

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General Debate

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slightlyrighty

I must admit, I find it difficult to fathom how some people can find themselves so reliant on the largess of a labour government, that they feel the loss of that government justifies a call to emergency services.

Could they not get through to talkback?
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November 11, 2008 12:42pm
Jenny

Did you see that 50,000 NZ families have been overpaid their Working for Families entitlement? Now they are all being charged 14% interest from the IRD. The fact that there is this number of overpayments shows how flawed this delivery method is. Bring on tax cuts – sack the paperpushers.
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November 11, 2008 12:44pm
PhilBest

DPF, I am unable to post comments on the thread “Herald on Helen”, nor, I suspect, any other thread from yesterday. And I think others may have the same problem given that comments have dried up comparatively early on those threads.

I want to say that THESE GUYS ARE 100% RIGHT, and there is hardly anything more important that needs to be realised about the last 9 years:

Owen McShane (437) Vote: Add rating 17 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 10th, 2008 at 5:34 pm

“This editorial maintains the fiction that the Labour government under Clark presided over nine years of strong growth.
IT was actually faux growth. It was not based on increased productivity or innovation but was driven by consumer spending financed by borrowings against over valued property assets – which is why those outside the housing market gained nothing from it and left for Australia or became an underclass.

Once the housing bubble burst the growth ground to a halt and unemployment started to rise and we have been sliding into depression…..”

reid (1343) Vote: Add rating 10 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 10th, 2008 at 7:55 pm

Yep, let’s not be sentimental. The editorial mentions “finding a path of restraining free-market economics while overseeing strong growth”

a) the strong growth was NOT her doing………

“……….she did widen the target inflation band making it easy for her to spend our money while her supporters suffered most as inflation ate into their meagre income. Every other market reform enacted since 1984, she kept.

She gets a zero for increasing productivity (hospitals anyone?), a zero for reducing unemployment (that wasn’t her doing – it was the global economy, stupid) and a zero for positioning NZ to face this upcoming calamity.

Her profligacy for selfish reasons (to get herself re-elected) shot the golden goose. We could have had zero debt. We could have kept parity with Australia, we could have climbed the OECD. We didn’t, she failed, recognise it.”

reid (1343) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 10th, 2008 at 11:53 pm

“Yeah but what can those good measures be?

Just take inter-bank lending as an example. We’re a bit player in the financial markets and our banks need rollover finance from other economies. Those economies are all in the process of repatriating their savings. Our govt guarantee offers those investors nothing more than most other larger economies are offering and where there’s fear there’s often also paranoia. So despite the objective risk profile being low based on our reasonable fundamentals, the subjective risk is relatively high as they weigh up the alternatives. So the questions become, are they prepared to lend to us and what is the premium we’ll be required to pay.

Hard to believe really that we even need to pose the first question but it’s a real one given the state of fear in the markets at the moment.

Turning to our income as we know the dairy boom is well and truly over although it’s outside-chance possible speculators will re-enter that market and manipulate those prices upward but prices there are already high and the speculators appear to be concentrating on other commodities at the moment. These are of course the same speculators who dealt in the dot-bomb and the CDOs from the property market so that gives you an idea of how powerful they are.

Then you have the possibility of the derivatives coming home to roost and that is $700 trillion where the world’s GDP is around $54 trillion but before then we’re likely to see further contraction in the US because the banks are starting to tighten up on credit card debt.

Essentially this is a result of the fact the West has lived on OPM for decades and it’s become a lifestyle not a temporary measure. Now we have to pay the piper and that applies to every single Western nation. Eastern nations are quite liquid because of oil but China is now rapidly closing factories given its exports to previously eager Western markets is drying up…..”
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November 11, 2008 1:00pm
PhilBest

DPF, I think we should have a detailed discussion on the monetary policy and fiscal policy of the last 9 years, and get some cold hard facts on the ground.

It is simply not true that the Yanks and their economic crash are responsible for OUR problems or for the problems of much of the rest of the world. Almost EVERY country in the Western world has suffered from easy credit AND house construction/land use restrictions causing a housing bubble; in fact the USA is one of the LEAST affected. NZ just happens to be one of the worst. Even if nothing had happened overseas, we would have had a property market bubble burst and finance companies collapsing all over the place; that process started BEFORE it had started in the USA or anywhere else.

We have had a toxic combination of loose monetary policy and profligate fiscal policy (squandering the legacy of previous responsible economic management).

We have also been comprehensively deceived ever since housing prices were de-linked from inflation statistics. This enabled the monetary managers to have their cake AND eat it, as the low interest rates they set helped “inflation” to be kept “low”, i.e. income expectations kept ahead of the costs of goods and services…….BUT the cost of housing went through the roof and we were truly as badly off as if goods and services had gone up by some shocking amount like 20% per year WITHOUT our incomes going up to compensate.

The reality we have to face now, as I tried to say yesterday, is that house prices and the prices of any other assets and investments that have been inflated beyond what REAL INCOME and the REAL ECONOMY would justify, will have to come back into line with that REAL ECONOMY. It is wishful thinking to think that we can all just keep calm and wait while the REAL ECONOMY “catches up” with the price of houses and other assets. The REAL ECONOMY is SHRINKING, NOT “catching up”.

We are in a frightful hole and our only hope, which I think is a virtually non-existent one, is for some “great communicator” of the Dave Lange class to actually successfully EXPLAIN to all (or at least enough) NZ-ers in a few easy televised lessons, what has gone wrong and what needs to happen. The alternative will be plausible government “tax and spend” prolonging of the depression that is upon us AND the worsening of the “final crash”, if that “final crash” is not already upon us.

The “final crash” MIGHT be followed by free market outcomes emerging phoenix-like from the ashes; but far more likely, given the colossal ignorance and the simmering brute resentments abroad in society, would be a new totalitarian dystopia that MIGHT if our descendants were lucky, come around Gorbachev-like to the need for free market reforms; OR remain in everlasting suicidal and mass-misery-inducing denial like North Korea. The same goes for much of the Western democratic world too.

Oddly enough, if the non-democratic Chinese stick to their canny monetary policy (free of the weakening temptations suffered by democracies) in combination with their “free market” growth rates, they will become the wealthy country that the West’s grandchildren will dream of emigrating to. But it is impossible to say that by way of prediction given the extremely uncertain world we live in.
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November 11, 2008 1:05pm
Redbaiter

“Could they not get through to talkback?”

They won’t be able to soon. Obama and his stormtroopers are going to shut it down. Along with the blogosphere, FOX news and any other information source that challenges their political supremacy. The people are enamoured of the politics of the Progressives. Like the Germans were swept away on the tide of Nazism, without even knowing what it really was, so the West has fallen head over heels in love with Barack Obama and his Chicago thugs and their shadowy left wing political partners.

When the Germans did find out it was too late. Right now, the world is in a similar state of dangerous ignorance.
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November 11, 2008 1:14pm
democracymum

I loved John Key’s comment about how he would have rung Helen to conceed the election if
Winston had held the balance of power.

saying….
“I would rather be a loser than a liar”

No wonder he couldn’t work with Winston!!!
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November 11, 2008 1:14pm
Ratbiter

“Obama and his stormtroopers”…
“Like the Germans were swept away on the tide of Nazism, without even knowing what it really was, so the West has fallen head over heels in love with Barack Obama and his Chicago thugs and their shadowy left wing political partners.”

Meanwhile, in another parallel universe, the Obama camp DOESN’T really appear to be gearing up to send whities everywhere to the concentration camps just yet…
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November 11, 2008 1:43pm
georgebolwing

Susan Couch, the sole survivor of the Panmure RSA killings, was successful in the Supreme Court this morning in her latest appeal in her quest for compensation.

She was represented by one BP Henry.

The Supreme Court List is available here: http://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/business/calendar/daily-lists/11-November-2008.pdf

As well as being the blood brother of a former member of parliament, Mr Henry is also a trustee of the Susan Couch and Crime Victims Charitable Trust.

Will the trust be contributing to Ms Couch legal expenses?
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November 11, 2008 1:52pm
big bruv

Does anybody think that Klark would have shown Key the courtesy of delivering his losing speech first had she won the election?

I doubt it, she would have been her usual vicious and nasty self, she would have rushed down to her HQ without even considering anybody else.
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November 11, 2008 1:54pm
Ratbiter

Key: “And I have decided to appoint Kiwiblog correspondent Big Bruv, in the role of Minister of Unknowable Things…”
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November 11, 2008 1:57pm
david

A-propos of nothing much at all except an idle observation.
Did anyone else notice that, on election night, the whole Clark household were swept off to LP HQ in Crown Beemers while the Key family (except for the PM designate) made do with cabs?

It may be that the PM’s driver made several round trips and that in itself may have been the reason for a longer delay in herself leaving that appeared reasonable at the time.

It also may have been a method of her clearing out the house while she made the call to JK. Who knows but it did all seem a bit unstructured at the time.
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November 11, 2008 2:06pm
stuartparkerkiwiblog

Some thoughts on Helen’s departure (re-posted from my personal blog):

The defeat of Helen Clark at the weekend, and her inevitable resignation, reminded me of a eulogy Hunter Thompson once wrote for Richard Nixon (http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/graffiti/crook.htm ). Many of his sentiments ring true for our own fallen leader, and while I’ll always credit her for getting off her ass and trying to make the world a better place, the same can also be said for Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, Adolph Hitler, Fulgencio Batista, Nikolai Chauchesku, Augusto Pinochet… you get the idea.

Evil is as evil does, and I for one am glad to see the back of a government that has enslaved generations to welfare dependancy, driven us to the bottom of the OECD on every important measure, and intruded into the private lives of the people on an unprededented scale. If there is one good thing I can say about the fifth Labour government, it is this: I had never up to this point considered myself a Libertarian, or fully appreciated the necessity of keeping government in check. You opened my eyes, Helen, and for that I thank you.
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November 11, 2008 2:11pm
petal

“Did anyone else notice that, on election night, the whole Clark household were swept off to LP HQ in Crown Beemers while the Key family (except for the PM designate) made do with cabs?”

I did.

One was the the PM and family, the other an MP and family.

However, didn’t that change upon arrival?

Did you notice the apparently(?) over-the-top security around Key and the apparent(?) absence of any for Clarke?

What’s the unspoken truth here? Was there a perceived danger to Key that specific night that required this?
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November 11, 2008 2:18pm
Doug

About time the media and political comentators started to bang on to the Labour party about collition partners and how they will be able to form a Govt in three years time.
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November 11, 2008 2:24pm
llew

About time the media and political comentators started to bang on to the Labour party about collition partners and how they will be able to form a Govt in three years time.

heh heh – and for Peter Dunne to announce he’s available for coalition talks.
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November 11, 2008 2:30pm
slightlyrighty

Petal.

John Key has been the target of death threats from certain individuals who have been engaging in some informal paramilitary training in the Urerewas. Now while I doubt the ability of those involved to carry out these threats, the safe option would be what we witnessed on Sat night.
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November 11, 2008 3:10pm
big bruv

Meanwhile Kullen says he “wont be a muppet up the back”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/vote08/4757618a28435.html

He has been a muppet up the front for the last nine years so I fail to see why he would change.
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November 11, 2008 3:15pm
side show bob

I agree with PhilBest, our problems should be laid out on the table and explain in terms some of us more simple folk can understand. If certain ideologys and those that promote them are put to the sword so be it, be they left or right. If the present government fails to do this then once again the left will be crying wolf. As the old saying goes “the truth shall set ye free”.
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November 11, 2008 3:34pm
Redbaiter

“Meanwhile, in another parallel universe, the Obama camp DOESN’T really appear to be gearing up to send whities everywhere to the concentration camps just yet…”

Gawd I’m bored with you stupid race obsessed pricks. Its never been about race (except in your narrow little minds) and it isn’t now. Its about politics.

“We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we’ve set,” Obama said in July. “We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.”
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November 11, 2008 3:59pm
big bruv

I see Comrade Trotter has spat the dummy right out of the cot, it seems he has decided to “hang up his keyboard” as he runs away to sulk over the demise of his beloved corrupt socialist government.

http://www.policy.net.nz/blog/2008/11/11/chris-trotter-the-night-mmp-couldnt-save-us-from-ourselves/
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November 11, 2008 4:07pm
scott

“I think we should have a detailed discussion on the monetary policy and fiscal policy of the last 9 years”

Why stop there. Start again completly. Have Govt issue the money supply debt free not private institutions. When they fail we bail them out so why not take the cake as tax cuts too.
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November 11, 2008 4:51pm
david

I see that Stuff is reporting Stuart Nash as Walter Nash’s great grandson.

Am I wrong or wasn’t that theory debunked a year or so ago?
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November 11, 2008 5:01pm
bharmer

# petal (171) Vote: Add rating 8 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 11th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
(snip) “Did you notice the apparently(?) over-the-top security around Key and the apparent(?) absence of any for Clarke?

What’s the unspoken truth here? Was there a perceived danger to Key that specific night that required this?”

Thanks for pointing that out. I did think the lock-step secret-service style human shield provided by the DPS was extraordinary, but missed that fact that none was seeminlgy necessary for Clark. In fact I don’t recall such a shield throughout her time in office.

It surely implies awareness of a specific threat?
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November 11, 2008 5:33pm
Hagues

david “I see that Stuff is reporting Stuart Nash as Walter Nash’s great grandson.

Am I wrong or wasn’t that theory debunked a year or so ago?”

Actually three years ago http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2005/09/epsom_poll.html#comment-138337

Stuart Nash
Because I am the great grandson of Walter Nash: and very proud of the family heritage. However, I have never said that being a Nash gives me a genetic ‘inherent right to rule.’ I simply use it to illustrate the point that i was bought up in a home where the values of social democracy were strong and practised. The link is not tenuous as I am the eldest son of the eldest son of Walters eldest son. It doesn’t get much more direct than that..! As for being adopted, not only did I end up with the great Nash heritage, but awesome genes as well. Legally, morally, emotionally I am a Nash – always have been, and always will be. Party vote Labour.!

Stuart is the great grandson via adoption. I’ll leave it up to others to decide if they think this makes him is great-grandson or not.
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November 11, 2008 5:41pm
SK

I think the security around Key was necessary just to stop him being crushed to death by the swarming media horde that shoved everyone else in the crowd out of their way.
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November 11, 2008 6:05pm
scott

In a speech by Michael Reddell Head of Financial Markets Reserve Bank of New Zealand, he explains why he believes private banks should create most of the money supply in NZ. He points out that only 2%(’91 ) of the money supply is government generated currency, by default the other 98% being privately created money supply.

Given that only the principal has been lent how is the interest payed save for borrowing more? Further, aren’t defaults inevitable given banks contract the money supply by not issuing new loans?

When Michael gets to the important part explaining why we should be paying banks interest for this service he digresses into his personal little caricature of what interest is without explaining WHY we should be paying it to banks to generate our money supply. Considering how much we pay in interest don’t we deserve more than some reserve bank, bond sale, financial institute slight of hand for the fee?

http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/speeches/0108922.html
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November 11, 2008 6:16pm
Inventory2

Did anyone else read the story in the Herald this afternoon about Nia Glassie’s mother, and suddenly feel violently ill?

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2008/11/its-enough-to-make-you-sick.html
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November 11, 2008 6:20pm
Ratbiter

Inventory: Unbelievable. There are some scummy people in this world.

But no doubt our friends here are already hard at work constructing arguments to show how it’s all down to Auntie Helen and the nanny State….
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November 11, 2008 6:34pm
reid

I’ll add my voice to those calling for a detailed discussion on monetary policy and strategies to deal with the current economic issues. A useful starting point would be Skilling and Weldon’s strategy paper and the subsequent discussions on that blog post.

I think Kiwiblog readers could probably add the politics to the economic issues outlined, in terms of where such suggestions would lie in practice with either party.

It’s a big subject but absolutely the most critical issue we face at present bar none. I’m surprised DPF that you haven’t covered this in more detail already.
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November 11, 2008 7:33pm
Steve

Full Moon is Thursday.
Just get ready for the Lunartics, they will come out in full force.
Sonic, Phool, Tane, yeah you know.
All the trolls are very quiet …..
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November 11, 2008 8:17pm
reid

Hey I just went to radio leftwing to listen to Hooten and Harre and discovered Ryan’s got a long interview with Geoffrey Sachs. For those who don’t know, he was one of Friedman’s accolytes, from the Chicago School, and has advised many global economies on implementing Douglas-style reforms. He talks about the current global economy. Highly recommend you have a listen.
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November 11, 2008 8:35pm
Patrick Starr

For the sake of showing some western unity I think Key should stand up now as PM and declare that Bin Ladens son can just forget any thought of coming to NZ

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10542391
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November 11, 2008 8:59pm
LabourDoesntWork

Thomas Sowell has a good article lately warning about how the left might seek to exploit this economic crisis, as they have with others, to empower the state and curb freedom. It just never ends…
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November 11, 2008 9:23pm
getstaffed

Reid – I chatted yesterday with a kiwi mate who is CEO of a global financial services firm in India. He’s pretty clued up on what’s happening. Some take outs from that conversation were:-
1. their organisation is dropping global headcount by 10% immediately. rem is being cut back 15%. Basically, no bonuses or salary increases in 2009, and probably 2010.
2. he has lost 100% of his last 12 months’ pension contributions and is unlikely to see these back before he retires in 4-5 years
3. the ‘average’ American citizen has lost 40% of their net worth in the last 100 days, and is unlikely to recover that loss in their working life
4. Australian banks have not yet ‘come clean’ on the extent of their exposure.
5. the next wave of financial trouble will be non-banking sector – vehicle manufacturers, airlines and tourism. his comment “most kiwi’s or aussies haven’t begun to feel the effects yet’
6. unless you know someone who lived with the 30’s great depression then this is ‘it’ for our generation
7. if you have cash invested in NZ banks try to spread it across banks. He mentioned the deposit guarantee in OZ of $AU150k, so if that exists here try to get below-threshold fund amounts held by different entities across different institutions.
8. many country’s govt guarantees are worthless (wouldn’t be drawn on which – I suspect he has good info…).

So, looks pretty ugly!
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November 11, 2008 9:33pm
Barnsley Bill

on the subject of trotter..
a pictorial tribute:
http://barnsleybill.blogspot.com/2008/11/comrade-trotter-has-quit-policyblog.html
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November 11, 2008 9:45pm
PaulL

Scott – I have an idea. How about you ask a bank to lend you money without you paying interest. Then you’ll probably understand why paying interest is necessary. It is called the time value of money.
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November 11, 2008 10:11pm
noskire

I wasn’t aware the DPS even had 12 staff, let alone the same number to create a phalanx for Key on election night.

It did strike me as over the top at the time – I’ve never seen this level of protection in NZ for a PM, let alone a PM-designate, so I’m assuming there were credible or perceived threats at the time. This wasn’t a crowd control exercise.

The pressing issue for me is why they all wore matching ties yet not the obligatory aviator sunglasses.
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November 11, 2008 10:21pm
reid

Thanks getstaffed, it looks worse and worse doesn’t it and your mate is right, this hasn’t even started to hit here and in Aus.

Do you have anymore details on the US citizens losing 40% of their net worth in last 100 days – what was it specifically about those, doesn’t seem to gel with the news but maybe I missed something. I assume he’s including the 401k’s in that figure which might explain it but even so there’s been no massive hits on those funds as yet, but fully expect that will be coming.

I think our deposit guarantee is $1,000,000 for retail deposits in NZ, but the more important guarantee is for the wholesale deposits although I think they extended it to also cover those – idiots – there was no point in it at all unless it did, so why announce it half-baked?

Also agree on the non-banking sectors (GM is now trading around $3 – lowest price since 1946!!!) and keep watching the financial sector, that hasn’t finished by a long way. The retail sector is either going to have the worst Christmas season in memory or a mediocre one – it depends on whether people decide to have a last hurrah before hunkering down. December through February many employees will receive news they won’t have a job as the unassailable data comes in, dashing hopes of those who think this is like anything we’ve seen before. Personally I can’t work out why Key made himself Minister of Tourism unless he really hasn’t seen this coming which in some ways would surprise me and in others it wouldn’t. Possibly being a currency speculator he’s a natural optimist like a real estate agent who keeps talking the market up regardless of conditions since they seem to think that’s their job and to be fair that’s how they increase their rewards. Nevertheless appointing yourself to a portfolio that is facing possibly it’s most rapid decline ever doesn’t seem the best move.

I also completely agree with your mate that the govt guarantees are virtually worthless. I mean, precisely where are they going to get the money from if they’re called on it? It’s’ a confidence trick and the danger is there is such low confidence that at some point they may well be called on it. Have you seen what has happened in Iceland? The govt bought the banks there but it didn’t help. The interesting thing is the rapidity of the collapse. Frightening really.

Finally, check out the change in the composition of the Fed’s balance sheet since these various mechanisms came into play, visually illustrated here.

Thanks again getstaffed, I think the more we share our collective thoughts the better off we’ll be as we move through this…

P.S. Do you have any further info on the Aussie banks exposure? Obviously that could be real serious for us.
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November 11, 2008 11:08pm
Redbaiter

“I see Comrade Trotter has spat the dummy right out of the cot, it seems he has decided to “hang up his keyboard” as he runs away to sulk over the demise of his beloved corrupt socialist government.”

I reckon the blogosphere can take credit for that welcome event. A snide slippery left wing propagandist has been exposed, and when light was shone on him, he ran and hid.

Keep up the good work bloggers and commenters. Keep shining light on the commie bastards. There’s plenty more to likewise deal with.
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November 11, 2008 11:58pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

So how bloated is the new cabinet going to be. Key has 59 MP’s to keep busy. Is it time to make up some new responsibilities inside and outside cabinet.

Who will be the new Minister for Arts and culture?
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November 12, 2008 12:46am
scott

After the post civil war depression the US silver commission launched an enquiry to find the cause. They concluded the depression was the result of monetary contraction by financial institutes. The monetary supply went from $1.8 billion or $50 per capita to .6 billion or about $6.50 per capita.

Prior to the 1930 depression the US financial institutes flooded the markets with easy cash and the money supply increased by 62%. Then on 24 of October 1929 the bankers called in their 24 hour broker loans which basically meant the loans had to be payed back immediately. The rush to sell stock to service these loans crashed the share market. Interestingly John Rockefeller, J P Morgan, Bernard Baroque et al all remark in their respective biography’s how “lucky” they were to get out of the stock market just before the crash and invest in currency and gold.

Never mind the depression, we still have all the means to produce goods which is what we eat not money. It is half-shekel mentality which will allow a depression to affect us;”In the abundance of water the fool is thirsty.”
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November 12, 2008 1:35am
scott

ppaul, I’m not disputing paying interest I am disputing paying it to some individual, ie a shareholder of a financial institute. If the govt can issue a bond it can issue a dollar. That way any interest we pay can come back to us a public service or a road or dare I say a hallowed tax cut.

I appreciate the feedback you gave me yesterday on the blue nation blog, I have clarified what I was trying to say and wonder if you can see the point I am trying to make or weather you still feel it is nonsense?

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/11/a_blue_country.html#comments
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November 12, 2008 2:03am
getstaffed

Reid, good analysis. re Aussie banks- no, my friend was a bit guarded on that subject. i isuspect he knows more that he can or should say. will definitely post more info if it can be unearthed.
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November 12, 2008 7:03am
scott

Reid, great link,

“The idea that markets are the only way is a simple minded false hood of a baby economic textbook or of the bush administration. It is just not how real economics works at all.” “Markets are more about efficiency than they are about guaranteeing access to critical needs.”
Jeffrey Sachs from the Chicago School.

This is given in the context of the limits of the markets to address real problems. He is not suggesting the dynamics of the market don’t exist or that they aren’t at all beneficial. They do as they are designed but there is more to the world, life and utility(sic) than what they account for.

I feel the sooner economist get their noses out of text books and thinking rooted in an archaic philosophy divorced from real people the sooner we can get on with the business of solving problems and improving lifestyle for all.
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November 12, 2008 11:05am
philu

“..P.S. Do you have any further info on the Aussie banks exposure? Obviously that could be real serious for us..”

about 12-15 months ago i did a story of the head of the aussie reserve bank..(?)..

..warning of the high exposure australian commercial banks had to the sub-prime collapse in america..

..(they bought up big-time..on those re-filleted/re-packaged mortgage scams..

..and have been caught with their gonads hanging out/exposed..)

..i would a assume a ‘don’t scare the punters!’ directive would account for the silence since then..

..but the situation still stands..

..the aussie banks are screaming..

..and like so many others/other industries..

..are praying for a (not coming soon) ‘recovery’/’stabilisation of the market’..

..dream on..!

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 12, 2008 1:30pm
gingercrush

Are the left in complete denial about this election?
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November 12, 2008 2:44pm
Lee

A good example of the scary narcissism and bloated sense of arrogant self-importance of many lefties like Trotter is the way he begins his rant:

“Well, the New Zealand Left has woken up to its very own 9/11.”

No Chris.

9/11 was a horrifying terrorist atrocity that resulted in the deaths of three thousand innocent men, women and children.

All that happened to the NZ Left was that you lost an election.

Get over it, and get over yourself.
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November 12, 2008 3:07pm
reid

Thanks phil.
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November 12, 2008 7:24pm
wikiriwhis business

I really believe America will suffer no terroism while Obama is in the White House

he hasn’t even entered yet and the Russians have already told him to mind his own business.

Cold war starting again?
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November 12, 2008 8:27pm
reid

wiki in the last 18 months since US-Russian relations have soured, the Russians have not been the agressors the US is. Some try to allege Georgia was Russian agression, that’s just ignorance. Russia expects Bush’s anti-Russian actions to be continued, principally by Brzezhinsky and encouraged by Biden – that”s why Russia warned him. Simple.
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November 12, 2008 8:34pm
wikiriwhis business

From an initial point, I believe the term ‘demilitarised’ will be the keyword for the Obama administration.
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November 13, 2008 9:55am

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