General Debate 9 October 2008

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OECD rank 22 kiwi

Can we all guess what National’s plans are yet for its second term?

It looks like it will start to do all the things it should have done in the its first 90 days in office.

i.e. scrap 39c(37c) tax rate, scrap Bludging for Families, attack government waste etc

Best way to avoid all the nonsense is party vote ACT.
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October 9, 2008 8:03am
Glutaemus Maximus

Can anyone understand why Senior Public Servants are paid over $500k?

Is it just on headcount?

Performance against KPI’s or just largesse with taxpayer money?

And what exactly are their pension rights when they retire?

2/3 rds Final Salary, Index linked, and Partner benefits?
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October 9, 2008 8:11am
Colonel Masters

I wouldn’t have minded seeing more of those National Party cheerleaders. :-p
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October 9, 2008 8:32am
NeillR

I want to know why Mallard wasn’t able to release National’s tax policy a couple of days ago?
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October 9, 2008 8:34am
first time caller

With the global melt down…what’s the Cullen Fund worth now?
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October 9, 2008 8:34am
goodgod

wouldn’t have minded seeing more of those National Party cheerleaders. :-p

cheerleaders? where? … google google … … damn! …where? 😆

I did find this though:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10401674

It’s real crack up! “We don’t hire cheerleaders to be sexy…” Like hell you do! 😆
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October 9, 2008 8:37am
Dave Mann

Isn’t it pathetic that, in the general media, the election campaign has been reduced to a kind of limp half-hearted reportage on ‘National’s Tax Cuts’ – which are at best an open bribe and at worst, well….. an open bribe. And what are we talking about here anyway? A few dollars per week either way for middle income earners! Pah!

Our country has huge social problems caused and abbetted by laziness and unwillingness to work, generalised family breakdowns, out-of-control government spending on useless PC schemes, an indigenous people policy which seems set to bleed us dry, a public health system where patients are often kept in corridors if they make it to a hospital at all, an under-resourced inadequate and ill-focused police force, a murder rate which is escalating every year, virtually no defence force and an economy which is strangled by corrupt regulations and green tape. And the parties in the election campaign ignore all this because the voters are likely to be swung, they think, by a few dollars a week ‘in their pocket’!

Actually, I think this country is headed for the toilet in the upcoming election. More waste, corruption and inaction. A continuation of the same.
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October 9, 2008 8:37am
democracymum

Pleased to hear the family of the Liquor Store owner are going after the Police for failing to come to his aid.
That case was an utter disgrace, and reeked of political correctness and mismanagement no matter
how you spin it.
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October 9, 2008 8:38am
expat

BBQ: Which Steak is the best BBQ Steak? Why? How prepared?
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October 9, 2008 8:43am
dime

democracymum – its a horrible case. i was driving along yesterday and the news report was saying how the family were screaming out to police for help.. made my stomach turn. a family member dying and you know the people that can help can hear you.. and nothing is done.. just horrible.
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October 9, 2008 8:44am
expat

softly softly dave.
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October 9, 2008 8:46am
bearhunter

Expat – eye fillet. Don’t have to do any prep, bugger all fat, quick to cook and tastes blinding. A bit pricey, but well worth it. Shit; I’m hungry now.
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October 9, 2008 8:46am
goodgod

“…Our country has huge social problems caused and abbetted by laziness and unwillingness to work…”

…well, yes and no.

Anecdotally, I’d say there is a 50/50 chance of running into a crowd that is professional in any particular industry – and size of company or marketting budget seems to be no indicator. But in the employment motivation game, in a comfortable country like ours ( i.e. you probably won’t die of starvation if you don’t work) there’s more to the equation than employers crying out for workers and workers refusing to work. In fact, many of the motivators have nothing to do with the work environment.
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October 9, 2008 8:47am
Glutaemus Maximus

Doe anybody know which is the safest bank in NZ for Depositers, and why?
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October 9, 2008 8:47am
expat

1 vote eye fillet.

I vote scotch with rich ripply veins of fat dripping off into the coals.
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October 9, 2008 8:48am
coventry

So these Electric Trains for Auckland that this new tax is going to pay for, how are they proposing to generate the Electricity they need for them ?

I would have thought with Auckland being the City of Sails, that we could have retrofitted them all with spinnakers & Genoas and left it to mother nature. Would probably run more on schedule than the current system.
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October 9, 2008 8:54am
coventry

Doe anybody know which is the safest bank in NZ for Depositers, and why?

Sperm Bank ? Because we actually need another 2,000,000 more tax payers (not recipients) to get the Economy up to scale.

And seriously; probably (dare I say it) KiwiBank – it is Jim’s bank after all, and “Jim won’t let them sell it”
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October 9, 2008 8:56am
democracymum

Imagine my surprise last night when I learned that the Labour government have just spent another 40 million dollars of taxpayers money purchasing a privately owned South Island country station.

This in a week when the government had already been forced to reveal to the NZ public that our financial cupboards are empty,and under Michael Cullen’s stewardship are staring down the barrel of another 10 years of deficits.

With so much of the country struggling at the moment to make their own meager budgets work, the
arrogance of the Labour Government spending our money in this way is nothing short of astounding.

This is particularly true in light of the stories that have emerged surrounding Wellington Hospital this week and the numbers of people literally dying before having access to much needed heart operations. 40 million dollars I am sure would have gone a long way towards decreasing the waiting times for these type of cardiac operations.

It is indeed a heartless government who would rather spend money on land rather than its people
No need to send soldiers to Iraq Ms Clark when you are doing a great job of killing New Zealanders at home.
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October 9, 2008 9:00am
Owen McShane

Just for the record I recommend all enthusiasts for the cost savings of amalgamation read this:
http://WWW.NEWGEOGRAPHY.COM/CONTENT/00318-THE-TORONTO-MEGACITY-DESTROYING-COMMUNITY-GREAT-COST

THE TORONTO MEGACITY: DESTROYING COMMUNITY AT GREAT COST
Regional governance is all the rage in some circles in America. But the Canadian experience demonstrates it might not have all the benefits advertised. More than a decade ago, the Ontario government forced six municipalities to amalgamate into the megacity of Toronto. This was not done by the residents of the six jurisdictions. Separate referenda in each of the municipalities (North York, East York, York, Etobicote, Scarborough and the former city of Toronto) all indicated strong disapproval.

The government claimed that an amalgamated Toronto would be more efficient and that the city would be more competitive. More than $300 million was to be saved, according to the accounting firm hired by the government to study the issue. Early on it was clear that the efficiency claims were bogus. University of Western Ontario urban policy expert Dr. Andrew Sancton quickly raised questions about the analysis, pointing out that the harmonization of labor contracts and services among the six jurisdictions could only lead to higher costs and higher taxes.

The government was wrong and Professor Sancton was right. By 2003, the Toronto City Summit Alliance reported the amalgamation of the City of Toronto has not produced the overall cost savings that were projected. The Alliance went on to blame “harmonization of wages and service levels.”
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October 9, 2008 9:01am
Dave Mann

goodgod, I was referring to those who live off the taxpayer on one of the range of tailor made benefits available. Those not wanting to work (‘unemployed’) or pretending to be an ‘invalid’ or ‘sick’.
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October 9, 2008 9:10am
Neil

Certainly the Richter scale impact of the tax cuts are not great. Heaven’s almighty we are on the cusp of a world wide recession maybe worse.Profligacy is not the name of the game, however the tax cuts in April will be invaluable in stimulating an economy by then into deep recession. Money must be kept circulating, locally and internationally.
I believe the emptying of the books by Labor’s spending in the last budget were deliberately designed to destroy National’s election programme..
Clark’s mention by Michael Basset,in his book on Lange, of her desire to get back in power by any means. Heard Clark snearing about National’s prposals in that horrible negative tone she has. Clark and Cullen would stuff the country rather than pass on something of value.
On balance, I think the tax cuts will have minimal effect on election results. Rather the term “Time” will be the major reason for change.
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October 9, 2008 9:12am
Colonel Masters

Imagine my surprise last night when I learned that the Labour government have just spent another 40 million dollars of taxpayers money purchasing a privately owned South Island country station.

I heard Uncle Helen this morning on RLW telling us how great it was that it had been put aside for future generations to enjoy.

Er… they had to helicopter in, because you can’t get there any other way when the river’s high. Yep, going to be enjoyed by many taxpayers. Perhaps she could next spend some money indulging my hobbies.

It was sickening too to hear the family representative going on about how concerned they were that it might fall into foreign hands. Don’t sell it then!
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October 9, 2008 9:17am
david

But but but Coventry ….

Don’t you remember when Kiwibank was formed, Cullen and Anderton were carefu.l to spell out that it is DEFINITELY NOT gummint guaranteed. In fact is your money safer with the Kiwibankers than ….. say ….. Westpac, Southland or TSB? I would say not necessarily. After all it boils down to how aggressive they have been in their lending policies for housing loans to “marginal” borrowers. Haven’t got a feel for that tho’.
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October 9, 2008 9:22am
coventry

But but but but david…

If Kiwibank did go toes up, Jim & co would like complete and utter buffoons (oh wait they already do). You would probably find the safer options in NZ would be Rabo or HKSH versus the Aussie (or even local) ones. I have a feeling the Aussies ones are a tad exposed – http://news.smh.com.au/business/banks-tapped-future-fund-for-cash-20081007-4v83.html
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October 9, 2008 9:30am
Chthoniid

Imagine my surprise last night when I learned that the Labour government have just spent another 40 million dollars of taxpayers money purchasing a privately owned South Island country station.

I heard Uncle Helen this morning on RLW telling us how great it was that it had been put aside for future generations to enjoy.

I’m kind of bummed out about this one too. $40m would let you do some serious species recovery work (we only have some 2400 threatened species after all, and another 3200 that probably are if we could find the data to confirm it). Most threatened species get nothing in terms of resources. I think only the kiwi and the kakapo (and possibly minke whales) have ever got over $1m. Dare we remind people that only 2-3% of the DoC estate currently get’s an optimal level of pest management. Let’s make the DoC estate even bigger…

I think this case exemplifies why our conservation priorities are completely askew.
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October 9, 2008 9:52am
dave strings

Which Steak is the best BBQ Steak? Why? How prepared?

Take a 1″ cut of eye fillet.
Sprinkle with pepper and dab with rock salt
Get the BBQ REALLY hot
Place the steak on the hottest part of the BBQ and LEAVE ALONE for 6 minutes
Turn the steak over and LEAVE ALONE for 6 minutes
take steak off BBQ and wrap in foil
LEAVE ALONE for 4 minutes

Eat with seasoning to taste and a large washed potato (preferably from Idaho, but unlikely here in NZ) that has been microwaved to tenderness, cross-cut, liberally salted and slathered in butter. If green is one of your things, a simple garden salad with Heinz English Salad Cream is allowable.

Do this once, and you will be addicted!
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October 9, 2008 10:05am
Chthoniid

Best meat for BBQ is kangaroo- like most game meats its got a richer toned flavour (effect of browsing over wide range of foot types). It has almost no fat and it’s free of any additives.

You marinate it first (essential for game meat generally), and my pick is a fruit-based marinade. Then cook fast and quickly on both sides. The lack of fat means if it is cooked too long it will shrink and become leathery. You’ve got to be good on the grill to get it right.

Second choice is emu or hapuka…
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October 9, 2008 10:12am
riki

So did anyone see the Wellington tsunami last night and make some quick phone calls around the country??
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October 9, 2008 10:18am
big bruv

Expat

Aged (it MUST be aged) rump is the best BBQ steak, yes you can use fillet but the reality is that it is probably to delicate in flavour and texture to waste on a BBQ.

The secret with any frying steak (only fools grill steak) is to ensure that the cooking surface is hot before you start cooking.
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October 9, 2008 10:21am
Max Call

i have my $ in Rabo because it is the only bank in NZ with a AAA rating (Standard & Poors) and offers good returns
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October 9, 2008 10:22am
dime

Public Trust has a Government guarantee.

I guess kiwi bank (another fuckin stupid name) does as well
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October 9, 2008 10:38am
aardvark

Well I was going to give my electorate vote to National but their decision to ankle-tap investment in innovation by way of killing the R&D tax concessions has changed my mind.

That only leaves ACT worthy of my vote — but an electorate vote for ACT is a wasted vote and even a party vote for ACT will (effectively) be a vote for National.

Looks like I’m not voting at all — none of these overpaid, self-important idiots deserves encouragement.

However, I have posted my own manifesto in my forums describing how *I* would handle issues such as crime, welfare, education, taxation etc. I hate to criticise without offering an alternative 😉
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October 9, 2008 11:00am
Chthoniid

I think the problem at the moment is MMP. Getting agreement on what to do to shorten the recession and reduce the pain (‘cos there’s going to be pain) will take longer and likely be half-arsed or counter-productive. Best electoral outcome would be for the Nats to get over 50% an a clear mandate to react quickly – assuming they’re the guts to make the right decisions.

Worst outcome now would be for a minority party in Govt to use the coming recession as a means to hold the country hostage.
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October 9, 2008 11:22am
side show bob

Can the taxpayer buy the Dear Leader a treadmill it might be cheaper then the old cow buying another farm. But if she is interested on further purchases mine is on the market for only 30 million, mates rates for anyone in the Liarbore party.
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October 9, 2008 11:47am
Glutaemus Maximus

Would I like a climate that allowed us to barbecue?

Coming home soon, but only when I know that the wicked witch of the south has her DCM.

The UK is a bigger basket case than good old NZ! And can you imagine what the US is like right now!

So what is the real reason that Kiwi taxpayers have to pay up for a southland sheep station at $40m?

Sounds bent to me! Why the fuck would you? DOC has got heaps of land. I smell a huge furry rodent!
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October 9, 2008 11:53am
Chthoniid

Forest & Bird have had their eyes on the SI high-country for a while. They appear to be reasonably successful lobbyists. They opposed the Westcoast Timberlands beech scheme (gone), they supported the legislation that terminated the Westcoast Forest Accord. They’ve had Ministers of Conservation bring in F&B people into their advisory unit (Kevin Smith) and Sandra Lee remained a member of F&B while she was minister. They’re had their people move onto MfE as well. You will never understand conservation policy in NZ until you figure out the connections to F&B.

I left F&B during the Gordon Ell years, largely because I felt it was becoming a lobby group rather than a conservation organization, and it’s stance was increasingly adversarial towards farmers, foresters and Maori groups. Kind of a shame really, because the F&B people I met locally and on the ground are great sorts.
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October 9, 2008 12:01pm
baxter

Can anyone understand why Senior Public Servants are paid over $500k?

Is it just on headcount?

Performance against KPI’s or just largesse with taxpayer money?

And what exactly are their pension rights when they retire?

2/3 rds Final Salary, Index linked, and Partner benefits?

GLUTAEMUS………I understand it is partly based on the number of subordinates thay are responsible for. The more they hire the higher their wages go……..eg..Peter DOONE the last National appointed Police Commissioner was on $200,000 Howard BROAD on $600,000………Christine Rankin National appointed WINZ $200,000 Peter Hughes over $500,000.

Dave STRINGS……….Do that once and you will be broke.

Democracy Mum………..Don’t you understand shutting down productive farmland and preserving it for the view is in accord with the Knowledge Wave and will shoot us up into the top half of the OECD.
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October 9, 2008 12:51pm
PhilBest

Want a safe bank? Swiss Francs, in a Swiss bank. You will thank me later.
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October 9, 2008 12:58pm
PhilBest

Call me Jonah. I keep telling you, the crisis in the USA is actually NOT AS BAD as the crisis in most other Western countries and the crisis in NZ may well be the worst one of the lot, and it is NOT the fault of ANYONE overseas or anything that is happening overseas.

Consider:

The EURO and most other currencies, is dropping relative to the US. US economic growth is still higher than virtuially everybody else’s and their unemployment rates are no worse (and they are not as creative as many other nations including NZ, with their unemployment figures).

Per capita, the amount of money used by the UK government for bailouts of financial institutions, is higher than the US 1 billion dollar bailout. Taxpayer exposure in Ireland, to deposit insurance, is 2xGDP. France, Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, all have financial institutions collapsing and being bailed out.

What is the lowest denominator to look for? The ratio of property values to income; i.e. the amount of “inflation” of property values. And guess what? NZ along with Ireland and Spain, is the worst in the world. Our real estate market has frozen up and distressed sales are going through at 30% under; and how many finance companies have we had collapse, rephrase that, how many finance companies are still standing, in NZ?

DUH. DUH. DUH. Here we stand, crowing and thumbing our noses at Wall Street because they’ve got their shoes dirty, and we are completely unconscious of the mire up to our own knees? A mire entirely of our own making, our own “greed”, our own regulatory stupidity?

Look on the bright side, there is no “run” on the finance sector in NZ yet, because the wool has successfully been kept over our eyes by our media. I would like to think they are acting responsibly in all this, but I suspect ignorance and anti-American opportunism is the real reason, plus their inability to bring themselves to tell us anything that might reflect badly on their idols Helen and Mikhael.

Another reason to be positive, is that our overseas-owned banks will be OK, as long as their parent institutions are among the survivors and the bailed-out ones. If we had a hermetically sealed domestic finance sector as some rabid lefties might want, or even a “Nationalised” one, we would be economic “toast” already and unable to deny it.
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October 9, 2008 12:58pm
NeillR

I see NSW has an Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC). Why don’t we?
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October 9, 2008 1:47pm
NeillR

@Max Call – call me old fashioned but i figured that any bank who has to advertise using hot chicks in LBD’s has got something to hide. I NEVER mix sex and money.
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October 9, 2008 1:52pm
s.russell

I have been to the St James station, which the govt has just bought for $40m. I did not need a helicopter.
It is a wide, empty land, very beautiful in a desolate kind of way. I drove through the area (in an ordinary car on a public road) for two hours without passing another vehicle. The hills don’t know who owns them. They don’t care. So what exactly has been achieved by this purchase? Other than communism?
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October 9, 2008 2:06pm
democracymum

s.russell

At least the relatives of these 8 heart patients who have died recently while waiting for surgery at Wellington hospital will have somewhere nice to scatter their loved ones ashes…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4719444a11.html

How nice to have friends in high places when you need to sell a family asset.
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October 9, 2008 2:18pm
Redbaiter

Sarah Palin said on Fox News- “As Mario Andretti (champion race car driver) once said, if everything’s under control, you’re going too slow”.
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October 9, 2008 3:02pm
stayathomemum

Did I hear right that it was leased Crown Land anyway???
I envisage a luxury grass-roofed lodge like Takaro to be built for VIPs, except this one will be called Rainbow Lodge. After the local trout. Ex Prime Ministers who have served at least 3 terms will be able to stay for free with life-long membership. They will be able to ski and tramp and fish and climb hills for the rest of their days. Special high pressure showers will be exempted from the standard building code because of the ‘exceptionally high rainfall’, and the extensive library will be equipped with a wide variety of reading such as Communism, Socialism and Marxism. Although the utopian paradise will be off limits to the general public when VIPs are in residence, the general public will be most welcome to stay when the luxury chalets are vacant (never).
Only a few days left to get it built though. No wonder she’s so nasty towards John Key – he is in the way of her utopian dream!
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October 9, 2008 3:20pm
big bruv

I hear that TV3 are about to release another secret taped conversation from the National party conference.

At what stage do TV3 front up to the people of NZ and admit they are either part of the Labour party or incredibly fucking stupid to let themselves be used and manipulated by left wing scum?
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October 9, 2008 4:41pm
tknorriss

Yeah, I heard that too. Apparently, something about Bill English saying he wanted to win at all costs. Well, guess who looks like they’re willing to do anything to win at all costs? Sneaking into meetings with tape-recorders; sifting through life histories in intricate detail to find the slightest flaw; changing electoral laws to suit themselves.

I think we need to be worried about the length that this government is prepared to go to to hang on to power. Quite sinister, really.
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October 9, 2008 5:44pm
aardvark

What got me smoking was Helen Clark’s response — as if “winning at all costs” wasn’t her goal as well.

There’s the H word again.
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October 9, 2008 6:27pm
getstaffed

Qantas Jet incident reminded me of this cartoon.

🙂
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October 9, 2008 7:26pm
big bruv

So Comrade Garner has been sent another tape by the pinkos at the Standard, well after hearing the tape the question has to be………….Is that it?….godness me, if that is the best Clinton Smith and his mates over at the tax payer funded Standard can come up with then Labour are well and truly fucked.
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October 9, 2008 7:46pm
tknorriss

I think most people will see this sort of thing as trite and silly in light of the problems the country faces at the moment.
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October 9, 2008 8:49pm
georgebolwing

NeillR: Indeed, an ICAC like they have in NSW would be most welcome here.

I suspect one reason why we don’t have one is that the powers that be in NZ have done a little research.

The ICAC was established by the Liberal government headed by Premier Nick Greiner in 1988. Initially, it investigated the activities of the previous Labour administration of Neville Wran and Barry Unsworth governments, which had been plagued with high-profile scandals. No charges were recommended by the commission as a result of these investigations.

Then, in 1992, the ICAC ruled that Greiner’s offer of a government job to a former minister who have left the Liberal Party over a policy dispute was an act of corruption. If the ex-minister had taken the job, he would have had to resign his seat in parliament, and the Liberals, who were a minority Government, were hopeful of regaining the seat and strengthen their position. While the charges were later dropped, this was not before Greiner was forced to resign as premier.
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October 9, 2008 9:36pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Trouble ahead:
The deleveraging vortex

China could be experiencing speed wobbles. If China doesn’t want Australia’s mineral then that bodes bad for Australia and worst for New Zealand. New Zealand’s should prepare to tighten their belts even more than they currently have at present.
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October 10, 2008 6:17am
big bruv

If any of you really want to raise your bloody pressure tune into Radio Live and listen to that pompous wanker Peter Dunne.

Sir Bob Jones best described the man as a political slut, his arrogant superior attitude annoys the hell out of me.

If any of you can get to the phone ring the guy up and ask him where the money he stole from us at the last election is, as far as I know he has yet to pay it back.
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October 10, 2008 10:39am
NeillR

George – cheers for that. I just can’t understand how New Zealanders continue to delude themselves that we have no corruption, yet the police establish prima facie cases on a regular basis. The only prosecution (apart from Field) that i can think was Arden driving his tractor up parliament’s steps. IMO the SFO should be beefed up and given powers to independently investigate political corruption as they see fit.
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October 10, 2008 12:03pm
riki

ok, good q.

someone asked what is the safest bank to deposit.

Now if you won the 24m this Saturday night, where would you want your money.

I would like to be loyal and put it in the TSB and maybe some in Kiwi bank, but it’s future doesn’t look too bright according to threats from the politico’s.

But David, in your expansive worldly wisdom, would my loyalty be wise?
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October 10, 2008 11:52pm

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