General Debate 29 October 2008

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DamnedAngry

Philu, a lifelong Greenie Socialist was dying when he suddenly decided to join the National party.

“But why?” asked his puzzled friend Paul. “You’ve been a staunch Greenie Socialist all your
life.?”

“Well,” he replied, “I’d rather it was a National Liberal that died than a Greenie Socialist!”
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October 29, 2008 8:22am
expat

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/currency/news/article.cfm?c_id=167&objectid=10539824&pnum=0

Fran speaks wise words because the shit is really starting to hit the fan.
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October 29, 2008 8:28am
wreck1080

Expat, your link is dodgy. This looks better…

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/currency/news/article.cfm?c_id=167&objectid=10539824
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October 29, 2008 9:00am
philu

o’sullivan is just being premature/jumping the gun..

it will happen..

..but not until everyone is out of denial..

http://whoar.co.nz/2008/fran-osullivan-calls-for-a-grand-coalition-of-labour-and-nationaland-for-them-to-form-a-war-cabinet/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 29, 2008 9:03am
PhilBest

Expat, that is good to see.

Look, how long is the MSM going to get away with the pretence that NZ is just unlucky to be suffering flow-on consequences of a crash brough about through greedy capitalists on Wall Street?

You know what? The US bailout of 1.3 TRILLION dollars is 5% of USA GDP. The POMS bailout is 30% of THEIR GDP. Almost every nation in the OECD is in worse trouble than the USA is, and it is their own fault in every case; that goes for NZ too. It is not greedy capitalists on Wall Street that have driven OUR house prices up to the most unaffordable in the world, (USA affordability ratio 4.4; NZ affordability ratio 6.3), or our household debt and our overseas borrowing per capita to levels that are considerably worse than the USA.

THIS happened on the watch of Helen Clark and Mikhael Kullen. End of bloody story, no excuses. You can fool people into thinking they are rich because their house is inflating in value 20% per year, for ONLY SO LONG. You can keep the economy propped up with low interest rates and easy credit for ONLY SO LONG. The party is now OVER, and the cleanup is going to need to be BIGGER than that in the USA or most other countries. That is precisely why our dollar is bombing and the US is actually where the smart money is STILL going. The international money markets are much, much smarter than our politicians; or our media; or our voters. We are in the process of committing democratic suicide through sheer economic illiteracy. In the case of our politicians and our media, there is a massive dose of dishonesty in addition to the ignorance. The only people who actually DESERVE to be PM and Finance Minister now are Rodney Hide and Roger Douglas.
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October 29, 2008 9:11am
grumpyoldhori

expat, a grand coalition may be needed, but I cannot see it happening.
I will run naked down Queen st if it does happen.
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October 29, 2008 9:11am
PhilBest

THIRD TRY:

PHILU: DID YOU MISS THIS?

# PhilBest (3299) 0 0 Says:
October 28th, 2008 at 1:20 pm

“While you’re here, philu, I’ve been looking out for you, you haven’t been so active on here lately, what’s up? Other duties pressing as the election gets closer, eh?

I want to ask you, have you seen the stuff about you in Trevor Loudon’s article on the Greens in the latest “Investigate” Magazine? I quote: “Green Party Blogger (since expelled) Philip U…….” He then quotes at length a posting you apparently made about Commies taking over the Green Party, which I found quite commendable. Did you really write that, philu, or who are you and what have you done with the guy who used to post as Philip U on whoar.co.nz?

…….Do tell…..!”

No answer…….?
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October 29, 2008 9:14am
expat

please dont goh.

but you are right…
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October 29, 2008 9:16am
grumpyoldhori

PhilBest, if idiots believed that their house values were always going to keep rising and happily raised their mortgage levels for trips to Europe, new cars etc
why should their problems be fixed by the taxpayer ?

A lot of these people were so called well educated, so they have no damn excuse
for the fix they find themselves in.
It will be interesting to watch house values in Auckland slid back to the three to one ratio of earnings which was the norm.
There has been to bloody much of the, put it on the plastic etc.
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October 29, 2008 9:24am
PhilBest

Agree with you completely, Grumpy. Keep it up, we’ll make a Libertarianz or ACT supporter of you yet………
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October 29, 2008 9:28am
grumpyoldhori

expat , I have a Greek God body, I was the only prop forward who needed a police escort for when I took the field to stop all those women from dragging me off to have their evil way with me 🙂
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October 29, 2008 9:29am
PhilBest

LUDWIG VON MISES said this in 1950:

“……. Minimum wage rates, whether decreed and enforced by the government or by labor union pressure and violence, result in mass unemployment prolonged year after year as soon as they try to raise wage rates above the height of the unhampered market. The attempts to lower interest rates by credit expansion generate, it is true, a period of booming business. But the prosperity thus created is only an artificial hot-house product and must inexorably lead to the slump and to the depression. People must pay heavily for the easy-money orgy of a few years of credit expansion and inflation.

The recurrence of periods of depression and mass unemployment has discredited capitalism in the opinion of injudicious people. Yet these events are not the outcome of the operation of the free market. They are on the contrary the result of well-intentioned but ill-advised government interference with the market. There are no means by which the height of wage rates and the general standard of living can be raised other than by accelerating the increase of capital as compared with population. The only means to raise wage rates permanently for all those seeking jobs and eager to earn wages is to raise the productivity of the industrial effort by increasing the per-head quota of capital invested. What makes American wage rates by far exceed the wage rates of Europe and Asia is the fact that the American worker’s toil and trouble is aided by more and better tools. All that good government can do to improve the material well-being of the people is to establish and to preserve an institutional order in which there are no obstacles to the progressing accumulation of new capital required for the improvement of technological methods of production. This is what capitalism did achieve in the past and will achieve in the future too if not sabotaged by a bad policy……”
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October 29, 2008 9:30am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Check it out over at Interest.co.nz, The hollowed economy:
Opinion: Why we need a crisis and a not so secret agenda

New Zealand now has a decent person to BLUDGER ratio of 1:1.

Now that is a sad indictment on New Zealand.
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October 29, 2008 9:31am
Ryan Sproull

People following the US election may find this entertaining:

http://www.236.com/video/2008/watch_synchronized_presidentia_9857.php

Enjoy.
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October 29, 2008 9:32am
PhilBest

And the CEO of FEDEX, Fred Smith, said THIS in the Wall Street Journal 3 days ago:

“…….These people were making these fantastic returns — at places like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — but in reality they weren’t adding a lot of value. I have said time and again that there is a fundamental tendency in good times in the financial sector to over-leverage. Our national policies actively encouraged all this debt.”

How so? “The United States has a completely uncompetitive tax structure in general and it has a particularly onerous tax structure for firms that are asset-intensive. If you run an industrial company like FedEx, which employs 290,000 folks, most of whom are blue-collar people, the way we have to run this business is to equip those workers with billions of dollars of assets that allow them to pick up and deliver millions of things around the world.”

His theory is that the tax bias against capital explains why so much top U.S. talent got whisked off to become investment bankers. “Not too many young people coming out of school are studying to be production managers at General Motors.” He says that most of FedEx’s first line managers come not from the top flight universities, but out of community colleges and the military. “The top talent has wanted to go to Wall Street.”

He has come to hold the get-rich-quick Wall Street financiers in more than a little disdain. He views the heroes of the U.S. economy as the companies that actually produce real goods and services. He sees the Wall Street collapse as an inevitable byproduct of investment bankers building multitrillion dollar debt pyramid structures.

So how do we fix this problem and retool our industrial sector in a pro-competitive fashion? “We’ve got to reduce the taxes on equity. Let companies expense their capital purchases.”

He uses an example from FedEx. “Look, our capital budget as we went into this year was about $3 billion. We went out to Boeing in July for our board meeting to see the new triple seven, [the Boeing 777] which we have bought. If we had a lower corporate tax rate with the ability to expense capital expenditures, guess what? We’d buy more triple sevens. We absolutely have to cut the corporate tax. Our current tax rate is about 38%. Even Germany has a 25% rate.”……….

Next I ask Mr. Smith about the class warfare theme of the political debate. “The politicians deplore the fact that we have a disparity of income,” he says, but “the only way to make a blue-collar person earn more is to invest in capital, training and infrastructure. So the more you tax capital, the more you hurt workers.” He estimates that about 70% of the return from FedEx capital expenditures is captured by workers in the form of higher wages as their productivity rises…..”
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October 29, 2008 9:33am
PhilBest

Lessons for economic management:

The only thing that drives growth and prosperity and wage increases is investment in PRODUCTIVE capital, capital that enables increases in per capita economic output.

Ludwig Von Mises and FEDEX CEO Fred Smith, quoted above, are dead right.

This is true regardless of whether we are in good times or bad times. But in bad times for the financial sector, the only REAL solution for the finance sector is DEPOSITS of REAL MONEY that people and businesses have EARNED as a result of economic value adding ACTIVITY. NOT taxpayers money gouged OUT of the “REAL MONEY” sector, and NOT prop-ups of artificially inflated non-productive assetts like houses.

Show hosts and economic numbnut political opponents scoff at Rodney Hide when he says that we MUST cut corporate tax if we are to have any hope of improvement in our economy. If we continue as a people to be sucked in by small-minded “soak the rich” politics of envy class warfare rhetoric, we deserve the resulting “Cuba of the South Pacific” that we will become.
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October 29, 2008 9:42am
MyNameIsJack

He has come to hold the get-rich-quick Wall Street financiers in more than a little disdain. He views the heroes of the U.S. economy as the companies that actually produce real goods and services.

Yes, I always wondered why the TV news is so fixated with the share market ups and downs. More beneficial would be a tally of how many widgets made today, how many sheep carcasses exported, how much (non melamine) milk protein was sold, etc.

Forget the spivs and concentrate on the producers.
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October 29, 2008 9:46am
PhilBest

Is the Era of Big Government Back?
Don’t bet on it.
by William J. Stuntz
10/27/2008

“If the pundit class is right, Americans are in for another era of big government: the New Deal on steroids. In presidential debates, hundreds of billions of dollars in proposed spending were tossed around the way mere billions once were. Within a year of our first half-trillion-dollar deficit, we might see our first–wait for it–trillion-dollar deficit. We seem on the verge of socializing both health care and the credit market.

But I’m starting to wonder whether the commentary has it backwards. In a socialized credit market, the government displaces banks. Governments around the world, including our own, are trying desperately to do the opposite: to induce banks to displace the government as the system’s leading lender…….

“……….As for more New Dealish issues like health care, I wouldn’t bet the ranch on radical change there either–even if November produces a Democratic sweep. The reason is simple: The government doesn’t have the money.

In a recession, federal revenues will fall, and fall sharply. Capital gains tax revenues will plummet, as will revenues from the corporate income tax. Individual income taxes at the high end–which is where most income tax revenue is realized–will fall too, and substantially: Highly paid professionals can see their pay fall as well as rise. The once-hot issue of out-of-control CEO pay will fade, along with CEO paychecks. Payroll tax revenues will fall as unemployment rises.

Readers might think: So what? We’ve run huge deficits before, and they haven’t produced catastrophe. Why not run even bigger ones for awhile? There are two answers. First, “awhile” means “permanently,” given that the already-mentioned half-trillion dollar deficit is mostly structural: Deficits of that size (and larger) will recur even in reasonably good economic times, unless spending is cut dramatically or taxes are raised substantially. And no, you can’t get the needed revenue by raising taxes on the rich; you have to squeeze the entire top half of the income spectrum to do the job. As between that and spending cuts–including modest cuts in Social Security benefits (say, indexing for price increases rather than wage increases and a further phased-in increase in the retirement age)–spending cuts will prove more politically saleable……

“……….Running massive deficits in our circumstances risks creating federal budgets the majority of which cover interest on the growing federal debt–year in, year out for the indefinite future. Eventually, that leads to one of three things: politically suicidal tax hikes, substantial cuts in federal spending, or the large-scale printing of money to lower the debt’s value. To get a picture of the last option, think Germany in 1923, when wheelbarrows full of nearly worthless marks were used to pay for the day’s groceries. German hyperinflation started as a means of paying off postwar reparations–debts that seemed too high to pay with honest money. Sound familiar?

That is the true big-government option for America’s economic policy-makers. I doubt that even Robert Reich would go for it.

Any way you slice it, the answer is the same, and it applies regardless of which party is in power. Unless middle-income Americans are sold on the idea that their taxes should be not just higher but much higher, we are entering the Age of Spending Restraint. Not the Age of the Federal Checkbook, and certainly not the Age of American Socialism. Whatever he says in the midst of his campaign, the next president is more likely to be a twenty-first-century Calvin Coolidge than an up-to-date FDR……”
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October 29, 2008 9:48am
Owen McShane

MMP and Proportionality.
This is not a trivial issue.
We voted for MMP because we wanted to improve the proportionality of Parliament. And Parliament is now much more representative which improves the institution which after all is a House of Representatives.
However, the Government (Cabinet) is a different and separate institution.
To make the point, imagine we were a Republic in the US mode and were about to elect a President as well as a Parliament.
The elected President would then appoint his government (cabinet). The distribution of parties in the Parliament would have no impact on the Government, where the winner takes all.
What many of us are concerned about is that MMP in a Parliamentary system allows small parties to demand disproportionate representation around the Cabinet table. A party might get 2 seats out of 120 but have both those MPs sitting around a cabinet of twenty MPs.
Do you not think it would be strange to have no member of the party getting the most votes occupying a single seat in the Government?
CAn anyone except Helen Clark believe the electorate would find that outcome “reasonable” and “proportional”?
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October 29, 2008 9:49am
dime

Obama at his best

The state government can also play a role in redistribution, the allocation of wages and jobs. As Barack Obama noted, when someone gets paid $10 million to eliminate 4,000 jobs, the voters in his district know this is an issue of power not economics. The government can use as tools labor law reform, public works and contracts.
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October 29, 2008 9:54am
Redbaiter

Richard Worth (less)- another Nat who wants the Marxist Obama elected as US President. What a fucked up party. What a pathetic “opposition”. Spineless and totally ideologically incoherent.
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October 29, 2008 9:55am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

If the 15% of New Zealanders paying 55% of all taxes buggered off New Zealand would be in a right state.

I’d be laughing hard as well. 😀
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October 29, 2008 10:08am
lloydois

1 week away from an historic election which will resonate for many years to come.

O-bam-a! O-bam-a! O-bam-a!

woo hoo!!!!
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October 29, 2008 10:12am
coolas

Axa wants its morgage funds included in the guarantee scheme
In Australia $25b of mortgages funds have been frozen.
Where does the corporate welfare stop.
Key wants to assist middle class middle aged mortgagees if they lose their jobs/income.
Labour didn’t bail out the finance companies. They let the market sort them out.
There’s no consisency in ideology.
It’s all repair and maintenance of a deeply flawed economic system as pointed out in prior posts.
The mind fuck battle between Capitalism/Socialism/Marxism is no longer relevent
Capitalism triumphed and we are now living with the consequences.
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October 29, 2008 10:14am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Redbaiter says at 9:55 am:

What a fucked up party.

The National party were going to run with that line as a slogan on their billboards but the broadcasting standards authority had a committee meeting, and despite being factually accurate, banned them from using it on “decency” grounds.
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October 29, 2008 10:16am
lloydois

Yes coolas agree. Road to Surfdom summed it up nicely yesterday.

“The current financial crisis is really bringing out the entitlement mentality that so many middle class Australians seem to share, whether it’s an entitlement to taxpayer-subsidised private schooling, or private health care, or private aged care, or in this instance, a taxpayer guarantee that your investments can only ever go up and never down.

Milne wrote a tendentious piece yesterday, bemoaning the horrible unfairness of investors not getting the same government protection that bank depositors got. In typical tabloid journalism style the story was based on the (alleged) facts of one individual’s circumstances: Greg Russell – a bloke who seems to have been singularly inept in managing his financial affairs if the information in the story is correct.

But the way these roosters try to have it both ways was glaringly apparent in this bloke’s absurd response to suggestions that he apply for assistance from Centrelink:

“It’s a complete joke,” Mr Russell said. “Imagine how the staff at Centrelink are going to cope with my circumstances.

“Wayne Swan is clutching at straws. There’s pride involved here, as well.

“Self-funded retirees don’t want to be lining up at Centrelink. He’s run out of ideas. They don’t know what’s going on.

Heaven forfend that a small businesman who can’t manage his money should have to demean himself by entering a Centrelink office, just like a common welfare cheat.”
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October 29, 2008 10:18am
NeillR

expat, a grand coalition may be needed, but I cannot see it happening.
Damn straight. Key has ruled out working with Peters because of his corrupt practice, so you can bet bottom dollar he wouldn’t work with Clark given all the skeletons in her closet.
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October 29, 2008 10:19am
Redbaiter

“O-bam-a! O-bam-a! O-bam-a! woo hoo!!!!-”

Keep up the over done confidence, the hype, the lies, propaganda and deceit you worthless power obsessed commie arsehole, your criminal and terrorist backed hate-the-US Marxist buddy Mr. Zero needs every bit of it-

http://www.gallup.com/poll/111124/Gallup-Daily-Likely-Voters-Traditional.aspx
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October 29, 2008 10:41am
Redbaiter

“O-bam-a! O-bam-a! O-bam-a! woo hoo!!!!”

Boo hoo you mean-

http://www.gallup.com/poll/111124/Gallup-Daily-Likely-Voters-Traditional.aspx
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October 29, 2008 10:43am
dave strings

>
>> If the 15% of New Zealanders paying 55% of all taxes buggered off New Zealand would be in a right state.
>

Erm, that could be 1) A left-state or 2) THE right State

Option 1) would be true because only left leaning lazers would be left behind.
Option 2) would be true because we would be the Australian State to the Right hand side (a.k.a. East) of Tasmania.

Oh Dear!
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October 29, 2008 10:50am
dave strings

What about the about to come cataclysmic financial event then?

http://www.rgemonitor.com/roubini-monitor/254130/bloomberg_october_23_2008_roubini_says_panic_may_force_market_shutdown_friday_morning_update_markets_are_becoming_dysfunctional_and_sp_and_djia_futures_trading_already_suspended_today

explains

(Bloomburg is a VERY respected publication, and Roubini is someone who actually predicted the sub-prime mortgage crisis and follow on credit crunch!

As happened in 1987, the public is fiddling while the nation burns, and in the meantime the brokers are ensuring the markets bounce high and low, creating not only 10%+ profit-in-a-day days, but also fees-up-to-the-knees days!

It’s time to free enterprise, and get the government out of the private investment markets. I don’t want to ensure Aussie Bank Investors don’t lose money based on the ineptness of their management and boards. A run on the Aussies today, with the funds placed in one of the local options (PSIS anyone) will restructure the NZ financial structure faster than Winston can say “let me just say”.
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October 29, 2008 11:00am
Redbaiter

O-bam-a! O-bam-a! O-bam-a! woo hoo!!!!

Boo hoo

Check the trend-

http://www.gallup.com/poll/111568/Gallup-Daily-Presidential-Race-Narrows-Slightly.aspx
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October 29, 2008 11:35am
Redbaiter

Apologies for the multiple posts (if they ever show up) – just experimenting. Merely trying to convey the information that according to Gallup, Obama is down to a 2 point lead and the trend is back to McCain/ Palin.
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October 29, 2008 11:39am
grumpyoldhori

coolas, come on dear boy, white collar types are owed, some twenty eight year old who has had his trotters in the trough when it comes education, is owed protection from being a bloody fool and buying a house on a 100% mortgage ?

Good god, would you have him lining up in Winz with the common herd ?
We hate socialism until we need it is the mantra chanted by too many in this bloody country.
Along with we want low taxes, but, you better find that tax money to protect my assets.
Christ I wish people were a bloody sight more honest, ranting on about the wrongs of socialism while saying one is a Nat supporter, is the height of bloody hypocrisy.
Maybe we do need a Libertarian government just to teach people a few bloody facts.
A few tent cities would teach people to look after their money.
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October 29, 2008 11:39am
Redbaiter

“The National party were going to run with that line as a slogan on their billboards but the broadcasting standards authority had a committee meeting, and despite being factually accurate, banned them from using it on “decency” grounds.”

It is just staggering to me that these Nat party drones are so out of touch, so ignorant and so uninformed as to support the global socialist disaster that is Obama. Where the fuck are they getting their information??? Richard Worth and all the others like him should have their arses kicked firmly into retirement.

The fact that NZ is today so firmly in the grip of socialism is down to politically confused gutless compromisers like Worth and other like National party socialist drones. They should have been told to fuck off and join Labour decades ago. Treasonists who have a damn lot to answer for.
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October 29, 2008 11:45am
lloydois

Dream on Redbaiter.

Possum as usual has the best psephologist analysis
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/

“The ordinarily Republican states of Montana, Arizona, Indiana and Ohio all experienced double digit probability movements to Obama, while the 5 to 10% improvement range were filled with more Republican states like Nevada, Georgia, North Carolina and North Dakota with Iowa thrown in for good measure.

The State simulations have reached the 99% plus probability estimate for a Democrat victory as the State probabilities continue to consolidate for Obama”
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October 29, 2008 12:11pm
grumpyoldhori

Bomb Obama ?
Jesus this is bloody ugly, it seems the McCain/Palin camp are encouraging this crap.
So who supports this approach to politics ?
Or does the end justify any means ?
Bombing Blacks, yep, been done before .
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-feldman/mccains-panic-in-pa-more_b_138504.html
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October 29, 2008 12:45pm
democracymum

Question regarding the Cash for Consul Scandal

…It sounds as the PM caught wind of the donation to Winnie, and put the brakes on the deal

She is quoted today as saying she didn’t think it was appropriate

THEN HOW WAS IT APPROPRIATE FOR THE LABOUR PARTY TO RECEIVE MONEY FROM OWEN GLENN
AND THEN TO AWARD HIM A NZ HONOUR?
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October 29, 2008 12:51pm
coolas

I support letting the markets sort out the financial sector distortions.
State intervention in the US has thrown the whole system into disfunction
In the UK the 3 biggest banks are now majority owned by the State.
This is a platform for International Socialism for the new era
Partnerships between private enterprise and the State is the core economic theory of Hitler’s National Socialismism & Mussolini’s Corporate State. The profit motive of capitalism is satisfied and the State has control over every aspect in finance & production. China is establishing a similar model. The opportunity for State fascism is self evident.

Whoever forms the next Govt in NZ will be led by international developments
If Obama is elected we may indeed see a new socialist model emmerge.
Clinton (and Blair) gave us the ‘Third Way’. Maybe Barrack will deliver the ‘Fourth Reich’
Brown & Sarkosy are promoting a ‘new economic order’

I think the entire ideology of free markets & globalisation is up for debate.
It comes at the same time as we’re being forced to evaluate our impact on the world’s ecosystems.
The West is ripe for more authoritarian governence, and when the State buys into the means of production, Fasicim can flourish.

Control over financial instutions is a dream for the authoritarian left, and, equally dangerous in the hands of the fascist right..
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October 29, 2008 1:03pm
redeye

Hey Grumpy

Scary stuff. If that’s the IQ of McCain supporters that we can only pray Obama’s lead holds out for another week.

The Secret Service will have their hands full. But then Bush is hated with a passion and they’ve kept him alive.

While you’re over at Huffington catch up on the truth about ACORN and the Republicans

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr-and-greg-palast/drinking-the-acorn-koolai_b_138390.html

Bloody hypocrites
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October 29, 2008 1:28pm
dime

yea, thats where we go for the truth.. the huff post.

redeye – still no comments about the obama tape? ya dodged that yesterday
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October 29, 2008 1:32pm
dime

The John McCain campaign is demanding that the Los Angeles Times release the videotape of Barack Obama toasting former PLO spokesman Rashid Khalidi, at a party attended by radical Palestinian activists and former Weather Underground terrorists Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn.

The Los Angeles Times has pulled their editorial heads into their shells, hoping it will all blow over. But the buzz is only spreading further.

Brit Hume opened his Fox News show with this story today, and reported that the Times is now saying “No comment.”

LA Times excuses so far:

* “We did report on it. Why aren’t you happy with that?”

* “There are ethical problems with releasing the tape.”

* “No comment.”
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October 29, 2008 1:46pm
dime

Latest Gallup Poll has Obama up by 2…

according to leftists, he cant lose.. but those same leftists believe labour can beat national.. even though they behind by 10+…

figure that out.

lets hope the LA Times gives up the tape!
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October 29, 2008 1:54pm
Ryan Sproull

Dime,

The average is 6.7 at the moment. http://howisobamadoing.com/

Gallup has an extended poll which puts him at 7 points up.
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October 29, 2008 2:00pm
PhilBest

Dime, that vignette involving the Los Angeles Times refusing to release a tape that might embarrass Obama is just par for the course where the MSM is concerned. Yesterday I posted a list of recommended articles by Stanley Kurtz (who is to Obama what Wishart is to Helen). Kurtz outlines several instances of Newspapers pulling stuff off their article archives when it would be embarrassing to Obama; even when the tone of the original article was pro-Obama but does not reflect well on him now.

The MSM in the USA has gone to new lows this time round. They are completely and utterly invested in an Obama Presidency, as if they have voluntarily chosen the kind of behaviour that totalitarian regimes used to require of their media through coercion. They are taking a huge gamble on this. I still believe that they are attempting to pull a con job and that the McCain/Palin result will completely defy the MSM “prediction”, no, “anointing” would be a better word. The MSM has been wrong by several points over and over again in past elections, always in favour of the Democratic candidate; but this time could be the finish of any credibility they had left, and the dawn of “new media” ascendancy – and well deserved bankruptcy for the New York Times – GOOD.
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October 29, 2008 2:08pm
redeye

Hey Dime, when you start reading my links I’ll bother checking yours out.
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October 29, 2008 2:09pm
PhilBest

GrumpyOldHori, I love your comment that “maybe we do need a Libertarian government just to teach people a few facts…”

Spread that word. It is a fact that the mainstream political parties almost everywhere in the world are wedded to economic and taxation and government spending policies that are doomed to disaster.

But Grumpy, Obama is certainly not the BETTER candidate on economic issues, although McCain is next to useless too. Did you know that the Libertarian Ron Paul regarded Sarah Palin as the best V-P candidate HE could choose if HE was to become President? She actually can’t say what SHE thinks about taxpayer bailouts of fat cats because it would embarrass McCain…….
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October 29, 2008 2:16pm
redeye

Why McCain is getting hosed in the media.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14982.html
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October 29, 2008 2:22pm
lloydois

Shock horror…..Sarah Palin is a …….SOCIALIST!!!! In her own words no less PhilBest.

For her part, Sarah Palin, who has lately taken to calling Obama “Barack the Wealth Spreader,” seems to be something of a suspect character herself. She is, at the very least, a fellow-traveller of what might be called socialism with an Alaskan face. The state that she governs has no income or sales tax. Instead, it imposes huge levies on the oil companies that lease its oil fields. The proceeds finance the government’s activities and enable it to issue a four-figure annual check to every man, woman, and child in the state. One of the reasons Palin has been a popular governor is that she added an extra twelve hundred dollars to this year’s check, bringing the per-person total to $3,269. A few weeks before she was nominated for Vice-President, she told a visiting journalist—Philip Gourevitch, of this magazine—that “we’re set up, unlike other states in the union, where it’s collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs.” Perhaps there is some meaningful distinction between spreading the wealth and sharing it (“collectively,” no less), but finding it would require the analytic skills of Karl the Marxist

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2008/11/03/081103taco_talk_hertzberg
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October 29, 2008 2:23pm
dime

redeye – hahaha great defence of “the one”

ryan – that was polling up to oct 27..
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October 29, 2008 2:26pm
PhilBest

Illydois, a Socialist government in Alaska would have either not been pumping oil at all; or the revenue would have been getting “redistributed” SELECTIVELY to their favourite constituency groups; bludgers, bureaucrats, uni students; and business donors to their election campaigns. Alaskans love Sarah Palin because she did NOT do this, she gave it indiscriminately to everyone just like a tax cut. What she did is a “small government” move; any other politician up till then in Alaska would have used the money to enlarge government.

And GrumpyOldHori, find out more about Sarah Palin. Forget about her beliefs that you do not like, she is the only person on either US Presidential election ticket who stands for the very things you would like to see in a government.
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October 29, 2008 2:41pm
PhilBest

My, the negative-karma-awarding Obamessiah faithful ARE busy on here at the moment……….
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October 29, 2008 2:43pm
dime

redeye – i know you only visit websites that have no bias…

from some politoc idiot.

“OK, let’s just get this over with: Yes, in the closing weeks of this election, John McCain and Sarah Palin are getting hosed in the press, and at Politico.

And, yes, based on a combined 35 years in the news business we’d take an educated guess — nothing so scientific as a Pew study — that Obama will win the votes of probably 80 percent or more of journalists covering the 2008 election. Most political journalists we know are centrists — instinctually skeptical of ideological zealotry — but with at least a mild liberal tilt to their thinking, particularly on social issues.

So what?”

lloydois – sharing profits from natural resources is slightly different to taking money off me to give to some guy who cant make his own money.
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October 29, 2008 2:44pm
philu

i think what would make the political debates far more interesting…

..would be having them all wired up to lie detectors..

..that beep when they tell porkies..

..it’d be great telly..!

..phil(whoar.co.z)
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October 29, 2008 2:44pm
Glutaemus Maximus

Link to Youtube with one of those subtitled German Films with constant references to the popularity of Nu Labour in the UK.

There are some scary similarities!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMi776jah1w&feature=related
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October 29, 2008 2:46pm
slightlyrighty

Phil,

That wouldn’t work. The greens want to ban all Thermal, Hydro and Nuclear power options in the future, and the current electricity framework can’t handle the draw.

Politicians should only be allowed to lie when the wind allows!
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October 29, 2008 2:49pm
Glutaemus Maximus

This is a must see link on Youtube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdSxy0u_mYg&feature=related
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October 29, 2008 2:54pm
dime

philu – you realise your side tells the most lies right? 😛
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October 29, 2008 2:57pm
Glutaemus Maximus

Test
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October 29, 2008 3:02pm
Glutaemus Maximus

Youtube link, and fits in very well here.

All about 10+ years of Labour Lies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdSxy0u_mYg&feature=related
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October 29, 2008 3:03pm
redeye

dime (540) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 1 Says:
October 29th, 2008 at 2:44 pm

redeye – i know you only visit websites that have no bias…

You’re here aren’t you?
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October 29, 2008 3:06pm
Glutaemus Maximus

The funniest parody on NuLabour ever!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMi776jah1w
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October 29, 2008 3:12pm
Glutaemus Maximus

The funniest Youtube video link about Nulabour ever!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMi776jah1w
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October 29, 2008 3:13pm
PinkGina

Coolas

“An open letter to my friends on the left”

http://myslu.stlawu.edu/~shorwitz/open_letter.htm

If you haven’t already its a very good read on free markets v regulation
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October 29, 2008 3:16pm
lloydois

Indeed both Sarah Palin and Joe Wurzelbacher illustrate the desperate delusions and deep stupidity of populism, its interest in identity and emotion (“he’s from middle America he feels this deeply”) above actual work and governance. Formal education is not necessary to political participation but intellectual curiosity, a belief that knowledge is real, that argument matters is. Among all the terrible — but hopefully self-defeating campaigns — that McCain has won, this basic assault on reason and knowledge, this celebration of a smug dumbness, is the worst thing they have done to themselves and their nation. Country first, hah.

http://www.crikey.com.au/Email/Preview/DailyEmailPreview.aspx?pid=979f56e0-943d-4abf-bc72-f5d1db77aa3d
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October 29, 2008 3:26pm
Glutaemus Maximus

Confused about the breaking story at the NZH over H payments and John Key.

The claim is all about he knew about it?

Well I know about it now, so what does that mean?
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October 29, 2008 3:40pm
philu

i reckon..beep!..john ‘beep!’ key..beep!..would have the most beep!’s..

..rail shares.?..beep!..beep!..

..that rightwing financier guy..?..beep!..beep..!

..privatising acc..?..beep!..beep!..

etc..etc..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 29, 2008 3:45pm
grumpyoldhori

PhilBest , you believe Palin does not believe in socialism ?
So why the hell is it that Alaska gets so much money taken from rich liberal states like California and transfered to Alaska via Washington.
When she became Governor why did she not demand that the money flow from Washington be turned off ?
Republicans do not believe socialism, please, do not kid a kidder, just look at the amount of farming subsidies in the USA that Republican politicians from the bible belt boast about getting from the rich liberal states.
Sorry but Palin is a complete and utter idiot with no curiosity of the outside world.
Her comment that because she was not born rich she could not backpack around the world shows the level of her mentality.
Hell, even in NZ there are people who support her because she is a raving fundy , and state that difficult questions are wrong to ask of a Joe Sixpack.
Too many are proud of her ignorance.
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October 29, 2008 3:51pm
Redbaiter

“this celebration of a smug dumbness”

That’s rich coming from a sector of society that has given the word “smug” the highest profile its had in decades. A collection of half educated pseudo intellectual pseudo academic communists with the part of their brain that contains their critical thinking skills completely greyed out. Ivory tower losers trying to impose an outdated ideology on a century of new technology, and unable even to get to the starting line in any competition of ideas.
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October 29, 2008 3:54pm
PhilBest

But GrumpyOldHori, do you think Obama stands for less or more of those things that you have just told me you dislike Sarah Palin for: massive transfers of money through Washington to people who neither need it nor deserve it?
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October 29, 2008 4:19pm
PhilBest

Fourth try:

PHILU: DID YOU MISS THIS?

# PhilBest (3299) 0 0 Says:
October 28th, 2008 at 1:20 pm

“While you’re here, philu, I’ve been looking out for you, you haven’t been so active on here lately, what’s up? Other duties pressing as the election gets closer, eh?

I want to ask you, have you seen the stuff about you in Trevor Loudon’s article on the Greens in the latest “Investigate” Magazine? I quote: “Green Party Blogger (since expelled) Philip U…….” He then quotes at length a posting you apparently made about Commies taking over the Green Party, which I found quite commendable. Did you really write that, philu, or who are you and what have you done with the guy who used to post as Philip U on whoar.co.nz?

…….Do tell…..!”

No answer…….?
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October 29, 2008 4:20pm
Glutaemus Maximus

So Mike Williams goes to the trouble of flying to Australia to research Court Papers.

The story leaked is that John Key was not involved in any fraud.

But he gave some wrong dates about leaving a company 20 years ago, and who he had luch with?

Given Mr Williams inability to remember his words regarding sending out information on the tax payers account.

And his weasel words over the Owen Glenn affair, it is simply stunning that they think that there is any story here at all.

However Helen Clarks poor memory about the Owen Glenn affair seems to be conveniently overlooked.
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October 29, 2008 6:41pm
jackp

Glueaemus Maximus, you are so right!! But I think Helen Clark had this to begin with which is why she is trying to dominate this election with her trust crap. The most frightening thing to me is people will buy it. How dumb can these kiwis be? Key wasn’t implicated in this multimillion dollar scam. But when I see Cullen buy trains for 550 million over their value, wow, that is integrity?? Voters can’t grasp this huge mistake and the news glossed over it very quickly. It is a crime when the Engineers, printing and manufacturing union, the largest, has a vendetta against National. Most people don’t know this.
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October 29, 2008 7:39pm
mara

IIoydois, your “Obama who hoo” makes me smile. If Obama wins, and it seems likely, it will give the “great unwashed” here in NZ the idea that change is possible. The change is obviously towards National. Key will benefit and the great irony of this will escape most of the dolts who think their vote is clever. Ah, whatever it takes ……
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October 29, 2008 7:41pm
Lindsay Addie

What will be next in the Labour plan smear Key?

Enter Duckman stage left…….

😆
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October 29, 2008 7:47pm
Patrick Starr

Well here is one that didn’t work for them too well

‘Two Johns’ ad falls foul of Standards Authority
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10540029
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October 29, 2008 7:55pm
grumpyoldhori

PhilBest, Now, that none of us know until soul food starts to be served in the so called White House.
If they scrap some of that paint off, they may find the colour it was left after the Brits and Canadians burnt it 🙂
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October 29, 2008 8:13pm
coolas

Thanks PinkGina
I read the link & again dismayed at the fabricated US property boom
Absolute freedom in the marktplace will temper greed eh!
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October 29, 2008 8:26pm
headstuckinlawbooks

A million years ago I signed up for SmileCity in order to vote in a Campbell Live poll… never used it, never got around to cancelling the emails.

Today, I get an email with the subject line “… a Message from Helen Clark”. Ugh. Here’s what she has to say.

Anyway… just an interesting marketing technique

Dear Carly Palmer,

These are challenging times – for the world and for New Zealand.

In times of economic uncertainty it is important we have a plan to protect jobs and incomes, and keep our economy and country secure.

Our plan is to keep investing in the things that help our economy prosper, like education, research and development for business, and promoting savings through KiwiSaver.

We’ll also keep investing in families, with cheaper doctor visits, lower prescription fees and supporting paid parental leave.
Helen Clark at MIT

Click to view Helen Clark’s visit to the Manukau Institute of Technology

Education is crucial, and we’ve made a commitment to improving skills and apprenticeship training – raising the numbers of modern apprentices to 17,000 per year by 2011. We’ll also make students less dependent on their parents by abolishing the parental income test on student allowance by 2012.

If the country is hit hard by the financial crisis we’ve also got a plan to boost the economy by bringing forward government spending on projects like new school buildings and our rail and road system.

As economic times get tough you have my guarantee that Labour won’t let unemployment get out of control, and we won’t cut government services.

We can do all these things because Labour has managed the economy responsibly for the last nine years. We’ve lowered debt and kept investing in the services that help families – like more teachers, doctors and nurses. We’ve also introduced responsible tax cuts and extra support through Working for Families.

And very importantly there is KiwiSaver. KiwiSaver is already helping more than 800,000 people save for a financially secure retirement. You have my commitment that Labour will continue to support KiwiSaver.

It is at times like these that we New Zealanders must ask who we really trust with the future of our family, our economy, our public services, and our country?

This election I urge you to vote Labour. Labour has the policy to create growth and economic security, and a record of delivering on its commitments. We have the experience, the judgement, the skills, and the contacts to lead New Zealand through the challenging times that lie ahead.

Helen Clark
http://www.labour08.co.nz

The New Zealand Labour Party, Head Office, PO Box 784, Wellington
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October 30, 2008 4:31pm
wikiriwhis business

Yup,,

any govt will support Kiwi saver, cause we;re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

it takes hard earned money off us whether we in it or not. what a travesty.

and I also understand there’s nowhere telling you who will get your savings if you die before it matures.

Obviously, the investment goes directly to the regime.

Anyone can confirm?
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October 30, 2008 8:27pm
Chaucey

Wanted to share a link to http://www.helenbot.co.cc/ . Have a “chat” with Helen.
It is a great way of having a laugh and letting off steam in the election leadup.
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October 30, 2008 9:27pm

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