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October 3, 2008 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 03 October 2008

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General Debate

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Glutaemus Maximus

The really good news is the huge turf war about to break out between Labour and NZ1.

Helen is making the Olds her top priority, and claiming all the concessions won by NZ1, and WP were Labour’s Gift.

As her spokesman said, ‘The Government paid for the concessions’

Amazing duplicity. Also kinda thought it was taxpayers money. Oh hang on. Taxpayer money is Labour Money.

Hopefully they will beat each other to a pulp in the worst case of domestic discord ever!

By the way Winston, where is the $158k?
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October 3, 2008 8:29am
democracymum

Helen is the ultimate Black Widow spider.

Like the L.(labour?) mactans of the species she eats her mate after copulation.
Males who escape her cannibalism can go on to fertilize others.
Helen’s actions are designed to stop Winston from mating again.

Although JK’s brilliant move earlier in the piece, has castrated him anyway.
Its mate with Helen and be eaten,
or mate with no-one.
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October 3, 2008 8:51am
Glutaemus Maximus

Think we should have a blog around across NZ to gain pledges of money to match the $158k that Winston First alledgedly gave to Charity (ies).

Whilst I personally believe he has lied about gifting the money, and has in actual fact simply stolen it for his own party.

If he is telling the truth? Then some lucky charity (ies) will cop for a double whammy.

And lets face it Retired Racehorses, or Retired Mohair Suit makers are a special case?

Where is the money Winston? Or as well as a liar, are you in fact a cheap shot thief?
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October 3, 2008 9:00am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Australia’s funniest home videos anyone?:
Kiwis face ‘virtual strip search’ in Aussie airports

Time to hit the gym.
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October 3, 2008 9:04am
pdm

Imagine the progeny if Winston mated with Helen – yuk spew!!!
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October 3, 2008 9:24am
Fisiani

Is The Spencer Trust a charity? Did it receive $158,000 from NZ First in a money merry go round?

Winston = Labour = Lies = Trusts = Corruption
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October 3, 2008 9:33am
philu

(sorry to break into your little helen hate-fest..)

but is anyone else at all concerned that we in new zealand have no depositors’ insurance on our bank deposits..?

..so that..when/if aussie banks close their doors..

..the new zealand depositor gets diddly-squat..

..i would like to issue a call/challenge to both labour and national..

..to promise to provide new zealanders with that reassurance..?

..cos’..if you fucken don’t..?

..sooner rather than later..

..you will see a run on the banks..

..over to you..

..ms. clark..and mr key..

http://whoar.co.nz/2008/here-is-an-election-winning-policy-plankwe-must-have-depositors-insurancewhy-havent-we-got-it-already/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 3, 2008 9:34am
Lee C

Is the EFA a trojan horse for state-funded elections? http://monkeyswithtypewriter.blogspot.com/2008/10/efa-trojan-horse.html
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October 3, 2008 9:38am
aardvark

I’ve blogged about an initiative I’d like to see promoted by political activists for this year’s election.

It’s called “Face the People” and involves voters ranking their satisfaction with politicians by drawing a happy or sad face on the *back* of their ballot paper.

Visit my blog to see the details and rationale. Any comments?
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October 3, 2008 9:41am
Neil

With the 08 campaign officially opening next week what beginning baseline do people see between the various parties,left or right etc. People use polls, then you have your own informal contacts which often confirm a trend.
My thoughts.
a. National are well ahead.
b. The mood for change is palpable- get rid of Labour. Will the tax cuts impact on the voters ? Doubt it !
c.There is some scepticism of National but at the moment people are prepared to go with them. Their tax policy is crucial, it cannot look reckless but still must be meaningful. Todays financial climate demands honesty and transparency not gaining cheap political points. To make progress in transforming NZ, National must win the next election in 2011, not be like Jim Bolger in 1990 who promised the surcharge removal then weasled on his word. People, especially oldies, don’t like that.
d.There are several labor politicians and Greens and others who are very unpopular. In that category HC, Cullen,Trevor Mallard, Tizard,Sue Bradford and Winston Last. Rodney Hide is catching some of the rising approval of the right. Dunne is motionless for the moment while Sharples is bathed in glory.
Possible results – National just short of 50%(I see their vote firming up rather than slipping) Labor 34% Greens 6%(May increase if Labor loses support) Act 4%
NZ First 4%(Still that many nutters around) Rest .Hide, Dunne and Anderton hold seats plus Maori Party 6 seats.
National coalition with UF,Act and for supply Maori Party.
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October 3, 2008 9:46am
Glutaemus Maximus

Neil, I can forsee a co-allition of Allies v the AXIS.

pdm, think it would be like a scene from alien (s) when it arrived into the World.

Phule, how much do you have at risk? Irish Banks full g’tee, British banks £50k per subscriber with a few notable exceptions.
France about to follow Ireland?
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October 3, 2008 9:52am
Lee C

This just in:
“Fran O’Sullvan and Sean Plunket better watch out. The NBR’s Ben Thomas is rapidly becoming one of our favorite journalists!

Somehow Thomas has e-mails that show that Dr Cullen refused to allow Treasury officials to consult the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade on the legal implications of any moves to block the sale of airport shares in preparing its advice. As a result, Treasury, who are not expert in this field, gave incorrect advice to Government.”

Ahh – acting on ‘the wrong advice’ where did we hear that before? What a great ‘get out of jail free card’ to have in your rather flash top-pocket eh Mikey?

Lee – MWT
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October 3, 2008 9:57am
Lee C

sorry – hat-tip the The HIve.
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October 3, 2008 10:04am
radar

Last night on TV1 Assoc. Prof. Stephen Hoadley of the University of Auckland was discussing the financial crisis with whoever the late news presenter is. The presenter asked him what he thought President Bush’s legacy would be. He said something along the lines of “The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Hurricane Katrina, and now the financial crisis. He will probably go down as one of the worst Presidents in history”. And Hoadley is well known as being pro-American in terms of foreign policy. I thought that summed up the last eight years quite well.
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October 3, 2008 10:05am
Chthoniid

Deposit insurance tends to cause banks to fail more frequently, as lending policy gets more reckless and depositors exercise less care. The other great way to generate bank failures is to have state-owned banks, but these tend to be less visible failures as the govt re-capitalises them when they become insolvent. China has been busy recapitalising state-banks for years as they become insolvent. Can anyone say BNZ?

Bank-runs are generally not the problem as this is a liquidity problem that can be managed through Central Bank lending.
There is a world of difference between bank failures caused by a lack of _liquidity_ and those caused by _insolvency_. If there is a liquidity problem, both the RBNZ and RBA are in a position to manage it.

Banking regulations in this part of the world are actually reasonably sensible. There are capital requirements to become a bank (which is why kiwibank needed the Govt grant to begin with) and lending policy restrictions. This mandates diversification of the lending portfolio (the lack of diversification in Japanese Banks during the 80s and early 90s, led to their failures).

This can be contrasted with the debacle that is the US home-lending industry. Capital requirements there are much, much lower than for banks and they don’t have much diversification. They lend on real-estate. This pretty much means they’re a heartbeat away from collapse all of the time.
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October 3, 2008 10:07am
Glutaemus Maximus

So Ms Thomson has been officially pinged by the enquiry, So she got family members into NZ. Didn’t appear to have the qualifications claimed. What will happen? Stuff all.

Meanwhile the Investor Category had one entrant last year. More corruption on Helen Klarks watch! More to come? Oh Yes!
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October 3, 2008 10:16am
francis

Deposit insurance is a response to the closure of banks in which deposits were lost. It’s the foundation of retail-level trust in the American banking system. It also only insures a fixed amount. Hard to see how this causes recklessness or carelessness.
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October 3, 2008 10:35am
Exiled

Headlines currently available from the Herald online main page:

…is Palin’s charm running out?

Will Sarah Palin lose the US election for the Republicans?

‘Working-class’ Palin understands (worth $1.8m)

Confidence in Palin slides ahead of VP debate

Bumbling Palin stumped by CBS interview (+ video)

Downturn puts poll wind at Obama’s back

I wonder who they’re rooting for?
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October 3, 2008 10:35am
Adam

Shameless plug for a short film shot on location in Auckland. Kinda of silly but fun to make.

http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=vSiobyw-S-8 (main film)
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=gchIRRDPkto (behind the scenes)
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October 3, 2008 10:47am
Chthoniid

francis- take a look at the role deposit-insurance had in driving the S&L crisis of the 1980s. I’m afraid the answer is yes, it did cause riskier lending policies (and downright fraud) because deposit-insurance existed to pick up the tab if things went south. And it discouraged depositors from putting the FI’s under a lot of scrutiny. Insurance causes moral hazard problems in all other insured products, why would FI’s be any different?

Deposit insurance has been studied and debated in NZ for a long time. And while it has some merits, the overall cost in terms of higher lending costs and moral hazard it generates, has meant NZ has to date eschewed this policy tool.
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October 3, 2008 10:48am
PhilBest

Chthoniid; you are right.

No deposit insurance= people lose money if banks fail.
State provided Deposit insurance= Government takes money off people, gives to people who would have lost money when the banks failed. Why is this better? And what behaviour does it incentivise?

There is already far too much moral hazard abroad in our society as the result of the State imposing itself between the behaviour of its citizens and the consequences of that behaviour.
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October 3, 2008 10:48am
kiwipolemicist

The parliamentary kaumatua has died: this is another double standard from Herr Helen, who said in 2002 that we are a secular country.

http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/
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October 3, 2008 10:52am
PhilBest

HERE’S some excerpts from Ann Coulter’s latest column on THAT “interview” on CBS, “Exiled”:

‘…….Being interviewed by Katie Couric on the “CBS Evening News,” Biden said: “When the stock market crashed, Franklin D. Roosevelt got on the television and didn’t just talk about the, you know, the princes of greed. He said, ‘Look, here’s what happened.'”

For those of you who aren’t hard-core history buffs, Biden not only named the wrong president during the 1929 stock market crash, he also claimed a president who wasn’t president during the stock market crash went on TV before Americans had TVs.

Other than that, the statement holds up pretty well……..

“……….Here is Couric’s full response to Biden’s bizarre outburst about FDR (a) being president and (b) going on TV in 1929: “Relating to the fears of the average American is one of Biden’s strong suits.”

But when our beauteous Sarah said that John McCain was a better leader on the economy than Barack Obama, Couric relentlessly badgered her for evidence. “Why do you say that?” Couric demanded. “Why are they waiting for John McCain and not Barack Obama? … Can you give us any more examples of his leading the charge for more oversight?”

The beauteous Sarah had cited McCain’s prescient warnings about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. But Couric, the crackerjack journalist who didn’t know FDR wasn’t president in 1929, demanded more examples from Palin.

We are currently in the middle of a massive financial crisis brought on by Fannie Mae. McCain was right on Fannie Mae; Obama was wrong. That’s not enough?

Not for the affable Eva Braun of evening TV! “I’m just going to ask you one more time,” Couric snipped, “not to belabor the point. Specific examples in his 26 years of pushing for more regulation?”

This would be like responding to someone who predicted the 9/11 attacks by saying: OK, you got one thing right. Not to belabor the point, but what else?

Obama was not merely wrong on Fannie Mae: He is owned by Fannie Mae. Somehow Obama managed to become the second biggest all-time recipient of Fannie Mae political money after only three years in the Senate. The biggest beneficiary, Democratic Sen. Chris Dodd, had a 30-year head start on receiving loot from Fannie Mae — the government-backed institution behind our current crisis.

How does the Democratic ticket stack up on other major issues facing the nation, say, gas prices?……..

“……….The Senate passed the 1973 Alaskan pipeline bill by an overwhelming 80-5 vote. Only five senators voted against the pipeline on final passage. Sen. Biden is the only one who is still in the Senate — the other four having been confined to mental institutions long ago.

The stakes were clear: This was in the midst of the first Arab oil embargo. Liberal Democrats, such as senators Robert Byrd, Mike Mansfield, Frank Church and Hubert Humphrey, all voted for the pipeline.

But Biden cast one of only five votes against the pipeline that has produced more than 15 billion barrels of oil, supplied nearly 20 percent of this nation’s oil, created tens of thousands of jobs, added hundreds of billions of dollars to the U.S. economy and reduced money transfers to the nation’s enemies by about the same amount.

The only argument against the pipeline was that it would harm the caribou, an argument that was both trivial and wrong. The caribou population near the pipeline increased from 5,000 in the 1970s to 32,000 by 2002.

It would have been bad enough to vote against the pipeline bill even if it had hurt the caribou. A sane person would still say: Our enemies have us in a vice grip. Sorry, caribou, you’ve got to take one for the team. But when the pipeline goes through and the caribou population sextuples in the next 20 years, you really look like a moron.

We couldn’t possibly expect Couric to ask Biden about a vote that is the equivalent of voting against the invention of the wheel. But couldn’t she have come up with just one follow-up question for Biden on FDR’s magnificent handling of the 1929 stock market crash?……..”
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October 3, 2008 10:54am
grumpyoldhori

Palin hunting video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTVHa4ikuNk
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October 3, 2008 10:58am
WraithX

Hey guys – can you recommend a good mortgage and income insurance company?
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October 3, 2008 11:02am
Redbaiter

I dunno what the McCain camp is doing putting Palin in front of the slimy little commie coward Couric. All she will ever want to do is stab Sarah in the back. The right are such idiots in so persistently refusing to acknowledge that the mainstream media (and academia) are these days mere extensions of the Democrat Party. The NZ Herald is just a local version of the contemptible New York Times, printing articles from raving left wing fanatics under the guise of objective commentary. I spit on these deceitful lying cheating partisan scum. When we get rid of these vermin, we will once again have democracy.

Phil Best- For an extremely good break down on how we have ended up in this sad state, I suggest you go to (I can’t post links or the message won’t show for hours) marklevinshow.com, click on the audio link, and download his radio program for day before yesterday (Oct 1st in the US). Its 16mb so you need broadband. Well worth a listen. Mark is a Constitutional lawyer who worked closely with Ronald Reagan (once his press secretary) and is very good value. If you want some succinct understanding of how the sub prime mortgage crisis arose, his show from 15th September is a classic.
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October 3, 2008 11:08am
Lindsay Addie

I’ve posted an article on my blog entitled Democrats on Fannie and Freddie. I found some juicy quotes from Democrats who have egg all over their faces thanks to some excellent journalism from the WSJ. Leading Dems are revealed to be total turkey’s starting with Dodd and Frank.

The most revealing part is that the GOP tried to warn the stoopid Dems about F and F as close as two years ago but their warnings weren’t heeded.
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October 3, 2008 11:29am
lloydois

Yes they certainly made a mistake putting Palin in front of Couric. She did a brilliantly professional demolition job, a pity we don’t have more journalists of this quality. Of course Redbaiter would prefer a Hannity infomercial. That way Palin is never exposed as the flake she is.

When Palin ducked a question about financial-bailout provisions, saying that “John McCain and I” had not yet reached a decision, Couric asked the deadly question: “So what are the pros and cons?” There is no way to fake your way around that. As Palin showed.
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October 3, 2008 11:39am
s.russell

There are several distinct issues concerning Sarah Palin:

1) Is she No 2 to the best candidate for president?
2) Is she generally on the right side of the issues?
3) Is she likeable?
4) Does she have the skill, knowledge and experience to be a useful vice president, and (if the worst happened) a capable president?

Some people automatically answer yes to all of the above and some automatically answer no. But the intellectually honest thing to do is answer them separately. That may also produce a full suite of yeses or noes. But for me it does not. My answers are 1) Yes, 2) Some of the time, 3) Somewhat, and 4) No (alas).
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October 3, 2008 12:05pm
Tauhei Notts

Following on from that 10.52 a.m. posting;
apparently the parliamentary heifer matua will now be promoted to kaumatua.
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October 3, 2008 12:25pm
RRM

Probably old news by now; Stuff have made a “whack a politician” game where you decide the election by clubbing Helen Clark & John Key over the head whenever they pop up out of the holes in the ground:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/vote08/0a28758.html

(Quite unlike what goes on here, I must say…)
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October 3, 2008 12:32pm
radar

It warms my heart to see the deranged Redbaiter defend the inept Sarah Palin. It’s really just a natural extension for someone who spent the last eight years defending the worst president in history. And what does he do when his princess can’t answer a simple question? He smears the interviewer as a communist. Typical. When you have no argument, call someone a communist. That is his only tactic. Keep it up ‘baiter.
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October 3, 2008 12:50pm
labrator

Nice one RRM, National won by 95%, put a smile on my face whacking politicians. It would be funny if they could extend it out to cover more pollies and more issues. Maybe Farrar can get a version here?
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October 3, 2008 12:52pm
Falafulu Fisi

Phil U said…
…all concerned that WE in new zealand…

Who’s WE?
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October 3, 2008 12:55pm
RRM

You must have quicker responses than me – I could only manage a 76% victory for Dear Leader!
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October 3, 2008 12:56pm
llew

I spit on these deceitful lying cheating partisan scum. When we get rid of these vermin, we will once again have democracy.

Yeah, once we’ve silenced the dissenters, democracy will be restored. Hooray!
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October 3, 2008 12:57pm
Danny-boy

I spit on these deceitful lying cheating partisan scum. When we get rid of these vermin, we will once again have democracy.

… “and order will be restored to the galaxy!”

Hark the bastard offspring of Darth Vader an’ Ann Coulter.
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October 3, 2008 1:29pm
NeillR

Massive delays on the Northern Motorway (southbound) after a digger smashed into the old Onewa bridge, just north of the Habour bridge. If you look back at the planning for a second harbour crossing, the best that the bureaucrats could come up with was another bridge built adjacent to the current one. So much for redundancy planning – if this goes ahead (and even if they build the tunnel near there) then you are creating a single point of failure that won’t be able to be routed around should a disaster strike.
It would be far better to create a secondary route through the central north shore (between Birkenhead and Beachaven) with a crossing connecting up to SH16 at Waterview. That way it would be able to link up to SH20 to provide a complete alternative to get north through Auckland and ensure that traffic could still flow, albeit slowly, should a major disaster occur.
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October 3, 2008 1:42pm
Redbaiter

“Yeah, once we’ve silenced the dissenters, democracy will be restored. Hooray!”

That’s rich coming from someone who spent all of yesterday chastising me for speaking out on the hypocrisy of his queer mates, sending the message that if you don’t agree with my pseudo liberal views, you should shut the fuck up. Typical arrogant liberal, the education system is full of such idiots, why you have outcomes like Radar and RRM, almost completely uneducated but exceedingly well indoctrinated. Its your cultural totalitarianism that I’m fighting against LLLLLew, and despite the fact that you hold all the power today, you will be defeated.
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October 3, 2008 2:03pm
big bruv

So what happens should the unthinkable occur and dear corrupt leader steals another election win?

What do the Nat’s do then given that they would have tried the hard right approach under Brash and the “don’t scare the horses” approach under Key?

Personally I think it would be the end of the party as we know it, four losses in a row would divide it right down the middle, we would see the Nat’s (of a sort) continue as a center right party and a more right wing faction split off to form another party (perhaps under the banner of the liberals) the ironic thing about a split is that it would make a center right government a hell of a lot more electable.
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October 3, 2008 2:05pm
Redbaiter

Anyone with any intelligence merely has to ask themselves the question- Why are the left and their media agents in particular putting so much effort into discrediting Sarah Palin? For one thing, she’s only the VP. Secondly If she was as weak as they maintain, wouldn’t they just shut up and let her lose the election? The answer is that the left know Sarah has struck a chord with middle America. She’s a bigger threatt than the tame dufus McCain. She must be destroyed. It is fear that makes the left attack her. She threatens their ambitions. She threatens their grip on power. She must therefore be destroyed.
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October 3, 2008 2:09pm
Redbaiter

“But Couric, the crackerjack journalist who didn’t know FDR wasn’t president in 1929, demanded more examples from Palin.”

The cracker jack journalist who didn’t even know there was no TV in 1929. Ignorant leftist scum like Couric are everywhere, calling themselves journalists when all they are is lying advocates for the Democrats, and totally fouling the democratic process.
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October 3, 2008 2:18pm
PhilBest

This is part of a comment I made on another thread not long ago, it is relevant here…..

Roger Douglas had the balls to do what was necessary and had it not been done, we would have been even closer to banana republic status today. Lange was the great orator who kept the NZ public confidence through the process. If he had not been bent by his socialist mistress and lost his nerve he could have been PM for many, many more terms.

Bob Jones said recently, and he was right, that reforms like these will only ever come from enlightened people on the “Left” of NZ politics. The “tories” are never trusted by the media and hence the electorate, with a reform programme. Expect moribund economic management for NZ from now until some fresh enlightened Labour Party figures akin to the Lange/Douglas years sieze the nettle again. Expect a moribund economy and further slippage in the OECD stakes meanwhile (if we can even continue to regard ourselves as a member of that club at all). John Key or any other tory leader that attempts what Douglas did: rapid, wholesale, reform; will be a one-term phenomenon only.

I positively hate saying the above, too, by the way. Schumpeter in “Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy” kept saying that he did not agree with or like the idea of the triumph of socialism that he was predicting; but his intellect and insight and honesty meant that he had to give that diagnosis, like a doctor with a patient.
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October 3, 2008 2:19pm
radar

“She must be destroyed. It is fear that makes the left attack her. She threatens their ambitions. She threatens their grip on power. She must therefore be destroyed.”

Thanks for that update from Planet Conspiracy Theory.

She will be destroyed by her own lack of knowledge, her inexperience, and general dimwittedness.

And where do you get off calling me uneducated? I think you are reaching a bit there mate. You know nothing about me. If anything, your sheer lack of grammatical knowledge and terrible spelling signals that it is you who is uneducated.
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October 3, 2008 2:21pm
llew

sending the message that if you don’t agree with my pseudo liberal views, you should shut the fuck up

To borrow your style:

“LIES!! I said nothing of the sort!” Except without the spittle flecked invective. I wasn’t telling you to STFU, you’re welcome to your opinion, even if it is ridiculous & flat out deluded, I was just telling you that you were wrong. I guess you’re used to that though.
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October 3, 2008 2:21pm
Rex Widerstrom

Here’s an example of why we rate so highly on these indexes that supposedly show a lack of corruption…it’s not that we’re so damned good, it’s that other places are so damned bad.

Or, then again, a cynic might say that other places are just better at catching their crooked pollies and bringing them to justice.
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October 3, 2008 2:21pm
Redbaiter

“I think you are reaching a bit there mate. You know nothing about me.”

I know you are not my “mate”, and never would be. I steer clear of control freaks, income stealers, ghouls and bigots, but most of all philistines, which is, from what you write on here, your most outstanding personality characteristic.
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October 3, 2008 2:24pm
gd

NeillR It gets worse In the early 1970s the then Harbour Bridge Authority put together plans for a second crossiing over Meola Reef (low bridgecheap the build) to link with the NW motorway and the now under construction ring route to join the SE and Sth motorways

The plan was that only those going to the CBD and the city suburbs would use the current bridge

The then existing tolls and a toll on the new bridge would finance the constructon and maintennance of both bridges and asscoaited roads

the dipshit pollies and civil servants of the time vetoed the plan

Then as now these dimbulbs couldnt plan their way out of a paper bag.
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October 3, 2008 2:25pm
Redbaiter

“an example of why we rate so highly on these indexes that supposedly show a lack of corruption…”

Rex, the survey does not measure the kind of ideological corruption that NZ is in the grip of today. It measures corruption more in the commercial market. Construction contracts decided by bribes. That sort of thing. It does not deal with the circumstance that NZ finds itself in, a government of power obsessed gangsters using their legislative powers to extend their political power, shield themselves from prosecution and silence opposition voices. That’s a completely different ball game to what Transparency International is on about.
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October 3, 2008 2:29pm
stephen

Rex, worth noting that TI rates countries on the levels of perceived corruption, as opposed to ‘measured corruption’ which is obviously quite a bizarre concept. That is as much as I know about their methodology though.
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October 3, 2008 2:30pm
llew

The cracker jack journalist who didn’t even know there was no TV in 1929.

Cough.

Regular TV broadcasts began in the US in 1928.

http://www.tvhistory.tv/pre-1935.htm
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October 3, 2008 2:31pm
Danny-boy

That’s rich coming from someone who spent all of yesterday chastising me for speaking out on the hypocrisy of his queer mates, sending the message that if you don’t agree with my pseudo liberal views, you should shut the fuck up.

1. Yer arguin’ that Llew’s criticism of your criticism of these scholarships is an attack on yer precious freedom o’ speech, ya poor wee lass.
2. If criticism is an attack on freedom, what the feck does that make your initial criticism?
3. And what the feck does that make your criticism of the criticism of yer initial criticism, if not an attack on Llew’s freedom o’ speech?

Ol’ ‘Baiter’s strugglin’ with internal consistency again. I’d see a chemist about some mild laxatives if I were you.
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October 3, 2008 2:34pm
Redbaiter

“I was just telling you that you were wrong.”

No LLLLew. You were doing much more than that. You were attempting to enforce your politically correct doctrines. You were sneering, attempting ridicule and intimidation, social ostracism, all of the usual leftist ploys, all of the strategies you customarily use to silence dissenters. Ask Don Brash, Sarah Palin- anyone who has ever defied your social and political ascendancy. You’re the modern day Gestapo LLLew, and just as they couldn’t see their evil, neither do you.
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October 3, 2008 2:34pm
gd

Rex Yes you are correct

IMHO its also because our crooks are smarter at covering their tracks and much more sophisicated.

Also because of our small size there more of a “turn a blind eye” attitude

I was an Auditor in a former life and it never ceased to amaze me the times a fraudster was exposed and quietly let go even with a glowing reference

Partly this was to protect the arse of the person they reported to so their boss or bosses wouldnt get to know and kick their arses.

The level of coverup in large companies in NZ is quite staggering because of the culture at the top The biggest concern is to not let those above you know.

I know of one large international company thats going thru this process right now where a significant cockup ( not fraud but cockup) is being kept from the overseas directors and buried in the accounts in a way that probably wont get to their attention.

Of course at the political level we know what we see is just the tip of the iceberg.

The actual corruption( Im not talking about dollars changing hands Im talking about other stuff) is quite staggering.

Mary Anne Thompson is just an example of the reality Most is covered up to protect all the parties.

Alas until you get a change at the very top nothing will change

As Prof Bob Garratt one of my mentors wrote as the title of one of his books

The fish rots from the head
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October 3, 2008 2:37pm
RRM

“…why you have outcomes like Radar and RRM, almost completely uneducated but exceedingly well indoctrinated.”

Oooooooh! Burning me when I haven’t even had one word to say on the topic.

As usual, Redbaiter spits his hate like so many morning-after garlic curry farts, and everyone in the room with him suffers.

Ah iz impressed….
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October 3, 2008 2:38pm
Redbaiter

“Regular TV broadcasts began in the US in 1928.”

..and when was the first presidential announcement on that “regular TV” broadcast LLLLew, you simpering contemptible fuckwit. Like all Liberals, its not your totalitarian cultural ambitions you want to discuss is it, you’d rather snigger about some false inaccuracy.
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October 3, 2008 2:43pm
llew

You were sneering, attempting ridicule and intimidation, social ostracism, all of the usual leftist ploys,

Oh good grief Red, you were obviously reading your posts, not mine.

It’d be laughable, but I believe you’re serious.
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October 3, 2008 2:47pm
llew

you simpering contemptible fuckwit.

Come & see the masses beiong oppressed & intimidated!

rather snigger about some false inaccuracy.

That’s kind of what I thought – so why do you do it?
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October 3, 2008 2:53pm
Redbaiter

It’d be laughable, but I believe you’re serious.

I’m serious, because I’ve had eight years of smug sneering attempted put downs by pseudo liberals like you and your dumbfuck thick as three short planks supporters. Don’t think I don’t recognise a knuckle dragging cultural totalitarian when I see one.

Example- “Nah, he’s just twisting words, blustering like WInston Peters, with about the same level of honesty. As I said, despite his bleatings about freedom, he’s a hypocritical busybody.”

Example- There would only be uproar from the likes of you & Nefarious I think. The intolerant bigots. Most everyone else would think

Example- Thank goodness these are just the lunatic fringe.

All remarks designed not to deal rationally with the issue, but to marginalize dissenters as some kind of undesirable sub group. You’re a totalitarian LLLew. Stop fooling yourself.
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October 3, 2008 2:58pm
WraithX

Franklin Delano Roosevelt was the first President to appear on television. On April 30, 1939, Roosevelt spoke at the opening session of the New York World’s Fair on the exposition grounds in Flushing, Long Island.

http://www.tvacres.com/broad_political.htm

So I guess Anne Coulter was right.
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October 3, 2008 2:58pm
Redbaiter

“That’s kind of what I thought – so why do you do it?”

The issue is Couric’s and the mainstream media’s left liberal bias, wherein she attacked Palin at every opportunity but alowed Biden to get away with utterly pathetic nonsense like the wrong president and the wrong medium. Like you LLLew, and the unfortunate majority your always reaching for, she’s a cultural bigot. You won’t defend that will you?
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October 3, 2008 3:02pm
llew

Don’t think I don’t recognise a knuckle dragging cultural totalitarian when I see one.

O I believe you, you see one every day when you look in the mirror.

All remarks designed not to deal rationally with the issue, but to marginalize dissenters as some kind of undesirable sub group. You’re a totalitarian LLLew. Stop fooling yourself.

Anything I have said to you & Nefarious is positively civil compared to what I get in return.

<blockquote>I’m serious, because I’ve had eight years of smug sneering attempted put downs by pseudo liberals like you and your dumbfuck thick as three short planks supporters. Don’t think I don’t recognise a knuckle dragging cultural totalitarian when I see one.
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October 3, 2008 3:05pm
Redbaiter

“O I believe you, you see one every day when you look in the mirror.”

I guess something as hackneyed, infantile and utterly witless as that means you’re done here then LLLLLLLLLLLLLLew? After all, I’m the minority arguing for the destruction of the massive state control apparatus you have put in place, and support so enthusiastically. How can anyone who wants small unnoticeable government, restoration of civil and property rights, destruction of the progressive taxation system and a constitution limiting the growth of government that has taken place at the behest of so called “liberals” such as yourself, ever be a totalitarian?? An accusation that could only be made by someone incapable of rational thought.
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October 3, 2008 3:13pm
RRM

Ilew – How many times, do you think, would I have to call you a “totalitarian dumbfuck” before you got upset?

I am sure the same old abuse will begin to elicit a different result eventually…
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October 3, 2008 3:16pm
llew

An accusation that could only be made by someone incapable of rational thought.

Maaate… you’re the one who made the accusation. I just turned it back to you because I believe such statements nearly always reflect more accurately on the person who makes them.

You are proving again & again that you are a Hypocrite! With a capital H.
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October 3, 2008 3:18pm
Redbaiter

“Anything I have said to you & Nefarious is positively civil compared to what I get in return.”

You see, that’s your problem. Like the other neutered lemmings writing here in support of your idiotic position LLLew, you don’t get the point. “Civil” has nothing to do with it moron. Its your attempt to marginalize that is the real point. I don’t care how politely you couch your responses, the outcome is still the same- you want to paint dissenters as part of some undesirable unapproved sub group. All of you social liberals do it. It’s why I call you pseudo liberals. Far more accurate. You cannot argue the issue on its merits. You cannot compete in the field of ideas. You merely wish to portray all dissent as wrong, and those who advocate change as undesirables. You’re a cultural totalitarian.
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October 3, 2008 3:19pm
stephen

Ilew – How many times, do you think, would I have to call you a “totalitarian dumbfuck” before you got upset?

Quiet, knucklehead.
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October 3, 2008 3:21pm
llew

Ilew – How many times, do you think, would I have to call you a “totalitarian dumbfuck” before you got upset?

It’d have to come from someone whose opinion I respected, or at the very least, trusted. I can’t take it personally from Redbaiter, he sprays that sort of intimidation in all directions. Funny how “totalitarian” springs so easily to what passes for his mind.
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October 3, 2008 3:21pm
llew

you want to paint dissenters as part of some undesirable unapproved sub group.

Um nope, that’s you too, in fact you said earlier:

I spit on these deceitful lying cheating partisan scum. When we get rid of these vermin, we will once again have democracy.

I can see that “civil” is never the point with you – perhaps you’d like to explain how you plan to get rid of these “vermin”?
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October 3, 2008 3:26pm
Redbaiter

“I can see that “civil” is never the point with you – perhaps you’d like to explain how you plan to get rid of these “vermin”?”

Primarily, but among other things, by means of a constitution that prevents the use of government to pursue a political ideology.

In other words the destruction of the edifice that you have built, the temple of socialism, that by its very declared intent, seeks to “socialize” rather than govern. You have socialized our culture, and it has been ruinous. I want the old culture back. So does Sarah Palin.
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October 3, 2008 3:35pm
llew

Thank you – that was very civil. Wasn’t so hard was it?
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October 3, 2008 3:43pm
Portia

I’m convinced Redbaiter is really DPF’s evil twin…
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October 3, 2008 3:44pm
RRM

“I want the old culture back.”

Sounds like “pursuing a political ideology” to me.
But then what do I know? I’m just an uneducated knuckle-dragging indoctrinated dumbfuck…
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October 3, 2008 3:44pm
Redbaiter

“But then what do I know? I’m just an uneducated knuckle-dragging indoctrinated dumbfuck…”

Actually you’re far worse than that. I was trying not to be too uncivil.
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October 3, 2008 3:47pm
jafapete

Goddamn, anybody else watching the debate? Biden did so much better than I expected. I almost teared up when he started choking on his words. So many great lines, so masterful. Wonderful stuff.
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October 3, 2008 3:48pm
llew

Goddamn, anybody else watching the debate?

trying to distract us from the business at hand eh?
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October 3, 2008 3:53pm
stephen

Goddamn, anybody else watching the debate? Biden did so much better than I expected. I almost teared up when he started choking on his words. So many great lines, so masterful. Wonderful stuff.

Now that you mention it (didn’t watch it), it sounded interesting, if not heart wrenchingly so. Good (more funny than serious) live blogging coverage:

9.12pm: A spectacular explosion of populist folksiness from Palin in response a question about who should be blamed for the subprime mortgage crisis. We’re less than 10 minutes in and we have soccer moms and now… “Joe Sixpack”: DRINK!

….

10.12pm: If you want to know what the middle classes are feeling about getting the short end of the economic stick, Biden says, “come to Home Depot, where I spend a lot of time.” Doing what? Looking at drill bits, maybe.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/oliverburkemanblog/2008/oct/02/uselections2008.sarahpalin2
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October 3, 2008 3:59pm
Redbaiter

“Biden did so much better than I expected.”

The rumour is he was given a copy of the questions in advance. Would be so typical of the left.
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October 3, 2008 4:10pm
RRM

“The rumour is he was given a copy of the questions in advance.”

A lie.
Just lies and smears, so typical of the Redbaiter.
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October 3, 2008 4:16pm
big bruv

I watched it Jafa, Palin cleaned up, not that the pinko media will ever admit that.

The next polls should be interesting.
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October 3, 2008 4:17pm
jafapete

Aw, Redbaiter, I can’t believe you’re trying that old trick. But, if you watched the debate, you’d know that his absolute best moments were in response to Palin going on about being a mom, Palin lauding McCain as a maverick, and so on.

Anyway, the polls are in and it’s Biden all the way! Biden crushed Palin, 46%-21% in the CBS poll of uncommitteds, and 51%-38% in the CNN poll. Biden also won by about a 3-1 margin in the CNN focus group. Yeah, I know, MSM blah blah.

It was great entertainment despite Palin trying to turn it into a soap opera. Will it make any difference to the outcome? Nope. Nobody stumbled.

Yep, big bruv, the next polls should be interesting. The first polls out that include the bail out vote show Obama doing better if anything. Can’t see anything changing in the near-term.

RRM, don’t take Redbaiter so seriously.
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October 3, 2008 4:18pm
big bruv

Redbaiter

While a victory for the fraud and flake Hussein Obama would be bad for the USA you have to say it would be a shit load of fun taking the piss out of the fool for the next four years.
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October 3, 2008 4:19pm
baxter

Jafa must have been watching a different debate to me. I felt sorry for BIDEN. The beautiful, passionate SARAH certainly outshone him. He seemed out of sorts, sour except for a few forced smiles to me and like Liabour kept dredging stale in accurate quotations from an irrelevant past. She held out a vision for America just as John Key will for NZ.
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October 3, 2008 4:20pm
Nefarious

Ok llew.

You point out where I have uttered anything less than civil to you personally?

You jump in and call me an intolerant bigot and lunatic fringe for pointing out that Redbaiter was correct in his definition of hypocrisy. You then asked where you had attacked anyone on that thread. I pointed it out and you failed to respond. But that’s ok, I accept your apology and forgive you, and I’m not even a christian. Benevolent eh?

RRM is my internet bitch so I don’t mind trading insults with him.
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October 3, 2008 4:21pm
radar

“The rumour is he was given a copy of the questions in advance.”

Yes, and that rumour was started in this thread by Redbaiter. He’s been listening to the voices in his head again.

I actually feel a little bit sorry for Palin. She should have turned down McCain’s offer to be his running mate. She has no experience, and as her interviews have painfully shown she knows very little about the issues facing America and the world.

Plus, she is a pork barrel politician of the worst kind who did actually support the Bridge to Nowhere, then lied about it. And she is a creationist fundamentalist who thinks that girls raped by their fathers should be denied the right to abortion. Yikes.
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October 3, 2008 4:26pm
DJP6-25

lloydois: Why didn’t she demolish Senator Biden over his remarks about FDR and the start of the Great Depression?
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October 3, 2008 4:33pm
Redbaiter

“I actually feel a little bit sorry for Palin.”

Wow, if she ever knew, I bet it would make her day that some sneering little yellow backed internet ignoramus who can’t even tie his shoe laces wivout his mum’s help feels sorry for her.
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October 3, 2008 4:36pm
jafapete

baxter, I was watching the debate on planet earth, so it probably was a different one from that which you watched.

Correction, the CNN News poll of all debate watchers was 51%-36%. (My short-term memory must be fading fast!)

In the CNN poll (MoE 4%), 64% said yes to, “Did Biden do better or worse than you expected?”, 14% said wrose and 20% said the same. Of course, people had different expectations, but if, baxter, you felt sorry for Biden, I don’t think you need to. Unless there is a really big October surprise, he’s looking like the next Vice President of the United States.
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October 3, 2008 4:37pm
Redbaiter

“Yeah, I know, MSM blah blah.”

Dead right-check Drudge for the reality.

Biden 36,000
Palin 103,000
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October 3, 2008 4:39pm
Fisiani

Q. What happens when your dairy gets attacked and you are stabbed

A. You pick up a hockey stick and defend yourself.
Next The police charge you with attempting to injure

FFS! Course you intended to injure.

Charging the guy injures my blood pressure!!
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October 3, 2008 4:40pm
RRM

“Dead right-check Drudge for the reality.

Biden 36,000
Palin 103,000”

Typical of those indoctrinated sycophants in the MSM eh?

(Hey – it’s amazing how quickly some of these redbaiter-isms fall into place, once you get used to them!)
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October 3, 2008 4:42pm
Redbaiter

“I’m convinced Redbaiter is really DPF’s evil twin…”

Wrong- I’m the good guy- he’s the evil one.
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October 3, 2008 4:44pm
Redbaiter

“Typical of those indoctrinated sycophants in the MSM eh?”

Only in your parallel universe would Drudge be MSM you time wasting loon. Get an education, but first, get lost. Bore.
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October 3, 2008 4:46pm
jafapete

Redbaiter, Looks like Drudge is about as accurate as it was with the first Obama/McCain debate. Which is to say, nowhere near accurate. Anyway, just to make you happy, here’s the WSJ on-line poll: 56%/42% to Biden. Or is WSJ too MSM for you?
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October 3, 2008 4:47pm
dad4justice

What happens when a young punk smacks you in the head with a bottle at your front door? He runs away and you tell the police you’ll kill the little bastard if you could get your hands on the filthy crazed animal. Then the keystones charge you and let the little prick go. Fuck justice!!
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October 3, 2008 4:47pm
DJP6-25

s.russell. Good questions. I’d vote M’Cain-Palin, but I’ll try to be as objective as I can.

1. Yes she is.

2. In the majority of cases she is. On the infanticide thing she is slightly off. I’d include rape and incest.

3. Very. Especially compared to Joe Biden.

4. It would be better if she had been a two term governor. One usually doesn’t get the ‘ideal’ VP though. For example Harry Truman was a machine politician and didn’t have much of a reputation for anything until about 1942-43. Then he went after corruption in the defence contracting business. He did it mostly at his own expense. He was chosen as VP at the 1944 Democratic convention. It was obvious by then that FDR was dying. The then Condervative MSM were complaining that America would soon have a ‘failed haberdasher’ as president. They were wrong. He went on to be an excellent president.
I’d have voted for him in 1948 if I was American.
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October 3, 2008 5:00pm
Redbaiter

Pete, if CNN is your benchmark, then fair enough. Respondents in the same poll were also asked who was more likeable. Results- Palin 54 percent, Biden 36 percent.
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October 3, 2008 5:06pm
redeye

“No LLLLew. You were doing much more than that. You were attempting to enforce your politically correct doctrines. You were sneering, attempting ridicule and intimidation, social ostracism, all of the usual leftist ploys, all of the strategies you customarily use to silence dissenters. Ask Don Brash, Sarah Palin- anyone who has ever defied your social and political ascendancy. You’re the modern day Gestapo LLLew, and just as they couldn’t see their evil, neither do you.”

“Wow, if she ever knew, I bet it would make her day that some sneering little yellow backed internet ignoramus who can’t even tie his shoe laces wivout his mum’s help feels sorry for her.”

Irony anyone?
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October 3, 2008 5:09pm
Nefarious

“Anyone having trouble irony?”

Nah, the missus does that.
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October 3, 2008 5:11pm
RRM

“Ask Don Brash, Sarah Palin”

or even better, ask someone who presumes to know their views, and speaks on their behalf!
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October 3, 2008 5:14pm

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