General Debate 28 September 2008

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Glutaemus Maximus

Will Winston First, file the returns as demanded?

When will he address the gift tax issue?

Do I think that WP actually lives beyond his means?

Is that why Whaleoil is reporting some curious revenue moves?
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September 28, 2008 8:06am
calendar girl

What “returns” does Winston have to file:
– NZ1 returns to the electoral authorities for the 2005, 2006 and 2007 years?
– personal declarations of pecuniary interests as an MP / Minister?
– both types?
– others?

[DPF: The ELectoral Commission has given a deadline of 30 Sept for NZF amended returns for 2005 to 2007. And the House has given a deadline of 30 Sept (by chance) of new returns for Peters personally]
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September 28, 2008 8:11am
Mike Readman

Aaron Keown, number 12 on the ACT list, is planning to go on a hunger strike until the election. The idea is that as New Zealand is slowing dying, so is he.
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September 28, 2008 8:18am
Glutaemus Maximus

Philu, please think that everytime you see a blinking amber light on the road outside, or on the street where you walk, or on the bus.

It could be me.

Or so many other people who are content and happy.
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September 28, 2008 8:42am
big bruv

9.49 am
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September 28, 2008 8:49am
Inventory2

Has anyone else read Michael Bassett’s take on the Privileges Committee hearings, the censure of Winston Peters, and those who were involved but escaped censure? It’s very interesting…

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2008/09/bassett-on-peters-and-that-censure.html
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September 28, 2008 8:50am
Falafulu Fisi

Here is a new development.

Local business man Stuart Landsborough has upped the ante to $400,000 if the Sensing Murder psychics , Kelvin Cruickshank and Deb Webber can complete a psychic challenge of his choosing.

Sensing Murder Reject $400,000 Psychic Challenge

I don’t understand why the 3 star psychics of Sensing Bullshit show reject this easy $400,000 if they know that their claim is true.
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September 28, 2008 8:53am
reid

Read an interesting comment on Hive about Clark’s leadership style. This guy analysed Presidents and came up with four types. Clark’s an active negative. Any of this sound familiar?

Active/negative types, broadly speaking, are aggressive in pursuing their political and policy aims, yet they get little true emotional reward from undertaking these endeavors.

In addition to Richard Nixon, Barber says Woodrow Wilson, Herbert Hoover, and Lyndon Johnson were active/negatives — all presidencies that did not end well.

In his book and his other writings, Barber has noted that for active/negative types that “[l]ife is a hard struggle to achieve and hold power” — one in which they are “hampered by the condemnations of a perfectionist conscience.”

The book is by James Barber: The Presidential Character: Predicting Performance in the White House. That quote was from a website.

“[A]ctive/negatives pour energy into the political system, but it is energy distorted from within,” Barber notes. He found that these presidents are “much taken up with self-concern,” and they always want to know if they are “winning or losing, gaining or falling behind.”

Active/negative evaluate themselves “with respect to virtue.” They view their actions (if not the world) as being good or bad. Their “perfectionistic conscience” provides no room for growth through experience, for they expect themselves to be good at all they undertake. Their ethics result in “denial of self-gratification,” for these men see themselves as self-sacrificing rather than self-rewarding. They are “concerned with controlling [their] aggression … reining in [their] anger.”

These presidents are capable of generating “tremendous energies for political domination.” They are also uniquely stubborn men, who become more rigid and inflexible as they proceed, for they become caught up in their own self-righteousness. And as Barber says, they mask their decisions not to budge, their rigidity, in whatever rhetoric is necessary, so that they can ride the tiger to the end. They also are our most secretive presidents.

Failure by these presidents is predictable because their flawed perceptions are often risky, they are gamblers, and their rigidity can easily plunge the nation into a tragedy. This occurred with Wilson — whose presidency was marred by a failed peace accord, a disintegrating economy, and refusal to admit the impact of a debilitating stroke. It occurred with Hoover — who ineffectively presided over the nation’s most devastating economic depression. And it also occurred with Lyndon Johnson — his Vietnam debacle and withdrawal from reelection. Finally, and most obviously, it occurred with Nixon — forced to resign after Watergate .

With such presidents there is always “the potential for grievous harm,” Barber warns, observing that while the nation has survived several such presidents, this is “cold comfort to those individuals and families who suffered for what these Presidents did.”

Barber admonishes that when we find ourselves with an active/negative president, we have a situation that cannot be ignored — for all such presidents are potentially dangerous.
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September 28, 2008 8:54am
kiwipolemicist

Who else thinks that daylight saving is a daft idea and prefers the natural progression of the seasons?

Bassett has some background on daylight saving as a political diversion:
http://www.michaelbassett.co.nz/articleview2.php?id=164&yh=2008&yl=2007

http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/daylight-saving-and-the-anti-smacking-law-part-1/
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September 28, 2008 9:27am
Craig Ranapia

When are TVNZ and Three going to grow a pair and call bullshit on this arrogance:

Prime Minister Helen Clark and National Party leader John Key have refused to share the stage with other party leaders in an election campaign TV debate.

They both say their head to head debates are the ones that really matter, because one or the other is going to lead the next government.

TV3 and TVNZ wanted the leaders of all eight parties represented in Parliament to take part in an MMP debate, which has happened in previous campaigns.

But the two leaders refused, and did not change their minds when both networks asked them to reconsider.

Am I being too cynical in thinking the real reason they’ve done a Palin is that neither Clark nor Key want to be asked any potentially tricky questions about preferred coalitions, or getting embarrassed by pointed questions from minor party leaders over policy? Well, to coin a phrase, diddums.

Here’s what I’d do — tell both Clark and Key that the head to head debates have been cancelled, and replaced with debates where all party leaders have been invited. If they decline to share the stage with other party leaders, they’re perfectly entitled to do so (just as they’re under no obligation to return calls or give on-air interviews), but if they do then the empty chairs of shame will be dusted off. And viewers will be told why at the beginning, and after every ad break.
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September 28, 2008 9:28am
Ross Miller

So by all reports and every measure John McCain whipped (only figuratively and calm down David B-P) Obama’s arse in the first of the Presidential debates.

Seems when it comes to one on one Mr Obama just doesn’t cut the mustard.

Our Phil will be mortified.

Palin vs Biden is going to be interesting. Have to wonder if Joe is going to give honest answers or some response crafted by his minders and probably plagiarised at that ….. hear that he is pretty good at plagairism.
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September 28, 2008 9:45am
Redbaiter

“Here’s what I’d do”

Yawn.. tell it to your buddy Spondre.
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September 28, 2008 9:48am
slightlyrighty

Craig.

While the spectator in me would like to see an 8 party debate, to do it true justice it would need to be an event of telethon proportions and I for one do not have the time to subject myself to that.

In ’05, we had a debate lined up with the leaders of the Greens, Labour, the Maori party, ACT, NZ First and National. TV3 determined (rightly or wrongly) that the status quo that would remain in Wigram and Ohariu Belmont did not require the Progressives or United Future to have a prescence. Anderton went to court and got himself and Dunne on the show.

Could you imaging a TV Debate with Winston at the moment? I personally would hate to see this blustering buffoon of a snake-oil salesman in a leaders debate as he would detract from the issues, but the courts have set a precedent that one or 2 leaders cannot be excluded. The point has been made that one of these 2 individuals will be the next prime minister. As such this is a debate that needs to be had unencumbered by the minor parties. There will be other forums for all leaders, but I doubt that Rodney Hide, Russell Norman, Pita Sharples, Jim Anderton or Peter Dunne see themselves at the next possible PM. I have no idea what Winston sees himself as! 😉
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September 28, 2008 9:51am
dad4justice

redbaiter, is “Spondre” a highly toxic socialist infectious disease?
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September 28, 2008 9:55am
Don the Kiwi

slightlyrightly.

“I have no idea what Winston sees himself as”

Uummm…….a prisoner?

No. Not in jail. Helen’s bootlicker.
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September 28, 2008 10:00am
Lindsay Addie

Leave out Jamberton, The Poodle, and Commonsense Man and let the others go at it………..

😆
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September 28, 2008 10:01am
Inventory2

After Peters’ arrogant performance on Agenda this morning, I can see why Clark and Key don’t want to share a debate with him. Even Mrs Inventory, who has little if any interest in poltics and was slaving away on her laptop while I watched was moved to comment on his arrogant, patronising attitude! Any debate which features Peters is going to focus on Peters, and quite frankly, the less I see of him in the campaign, the better!
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September 28, 2008 10:12am
Falafulu Fisi

As Stuart Landsborough is offering money for his psychic/paranormal challenge, this was perhaps the most bizarre of all:

Yet another challenger declared that he would go back to his motel that evening and pray to God for the location. If God answered the challenger would return next morning. Needless to say he never returned!

One of the strangest challenges involved a lovely young lady who declared that she could find the Promissory Note. All Stuart had to do was to put his hands on her bare breasts and she would get the message (what message?!). Stuart, mindful of potential lawsuits, declined the challenge!

Perhaps Stuart can hire Phil U to conduct the challenge on his behalf. I am sure that WINZ will support that. A win-win situation for both Stuart & Phil, I reckon.
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September 28, 2008 10:24am
Redbaiter

The broad consensus is that MMP has been a dismal failure. We got on one hand ACT, but on the other hand we got Peter Dunne, Winston Peters, the Watermelons, the Racist party and worst of all, (just pipping Dunne) Jim Anderton. Obviously the bad far outweighs the good. Rod Hide is worth hearing, but sadly the price one would have to pay, ie giving a platform to the rest of those odious bastards, is too great.
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September 28, 2008 10:25am
WebWrat

Pertaining to the Emissions Tax Scam here http://tinyurl.com/4lfq25
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September 28, 2008 12:56pm
s.russell

The reason Helen Clark and John Key do not want to share a debate with the other party leaders is that this would just give them more exposure and potentially more votes. That is not in their interest.

A lot of people will tune in to the debates regardless of whether the minors are in them. But not many would tune in to a debate of minors only. Shutting them out means fewer people will hear what they have to say, and reduces the risk that one of them will grab a lot of votes as a result – as Peter Dunne did in 2002.
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September 28, 2008 1:41pm
kiwipolemicist

My angle on the Emissions Taxation Scam is here:

http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/09/11/the-emissions-trading-scheme-global-socialism/
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September 28, 2008 2:55pm
Lindsay Addie

National has released their electoral law policy details, my analysis is here.

The Maori Party’s reaction will be interesting to observe.
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September 28, 2008 4:10pm
stephen

Falafulu Fisi, thanks for the updates on all that – Landsborough is effen’ serious eh?!
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September 28, 2008 4:32pm
calendar girl

DPF – thank you for the information in response to my query at 8.11am.

IMO there’s not a chance of Peters complying with any requirement. Probably no chace either of PM Clark sacking him for not complying with those lawful commands. Least of all any chance of the MSM demanding that she force her Minister to comply.
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September 28, 2008 5:27pm
Nomestradamus

I’ve just read the Hansard record of the debate on the Privileges Committee report and, as far as I know, this point hasn’t been commented on:

Consideration of Report of Privileges Committee
Members’ Pecuniary Interests—Gifts and Donations

PETER BROWN (Whip—NZ First) : I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. At the conclusion of this debate we will take a vote, and it is a very serious issue, to my mind. As you are well aware, I wrote to you and asked that it be a personal vote, in the interests of justice. You declined that, and I just wondered whether you could spare a few moments of the House’s time to explain why it was declined.

Madam SPEAKER: Is the member seeking leave to have a personal vote at the end of this debate?

PETER BROWN: If that is the option I have, then I seek leave for the vote to be taken on this debate to be a personal vote.

Madam SPEAKER: I thank the member. Yes, the member is quite right; he did write to me. I did consult with parties and the request was declined. But leave has been sought. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.

Now why would Peter Brown want a personal vote instead of voting on party lines “in the interests of justice”? One possibility is procedural justice: that the required number of MPs would vote against the party line (ie last-ditch attempt to change the voting outcome). The second, more disturbing scenario, is vengeful justice: that having a record of individual votes would allow the New Zealand First dirt machine to run a targeted smear campaign.
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September 28, 2008 7:40pm
talkglobally

Thought that someone would have commented on the latest TV3 poll results by now. Certainly interesting that the last couple of weeks of trying to pull JK now, has actually had no effect. I wonder what desperate measures by Labour, to further discredit him, are going to be brought to bear over the coming weeks!
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September 28, 2008 8:05pm
getstaffed

One possibility is procedural justice: that the required number of MPs would vote against the party line (ie last-ditch attempt to change the voting outcome). The second, more disturbing scenario, is vengeful justice: that having a record of individual votes would allow the New Zealand First dirt machine to run a targeted smear campaign.

If this really is the domain of possible scenarios, then I’d back the second. I can’t see any way they would have risked having a ‘I’ve-just-discovered-my-spine’ Labour MP vote to censure Winston.
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September 28, 2008 8:13pm
Lindsay Addie

Bailey Junior Kurariki is in the shit again. Are they actually trying to reform this littel f**ker?

Throw him back in the slammer and leave him there.
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September 28, 2008 8:22pm
getstaffed

From Stuff:

After the 1996 talks Wayne Peters disappeared from the national stage, but continued his involvement in business and law in Whangarei. He is a director of at least 15 companies, including Aotearoa Fisheries, the largest Maori-owned fisheries company, and is on the governing board of the NZ Law Society. Like his brother, he is a keen racing man, owning and racing horses with Maungatapere breeder Terry Archer

So Wayne Peters has interests in fishing and racing. Odd coincidence, but helpful that his brother Winston should have been able to take large donations from players in these industries and oversee favouarble legislative consideration.
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September 28, 2008 8:27pm
PaulL

Nomestradamus – another option is that Brown wanted to vote in favour – starting the getting rid of Peters? Now that would have been interesting.
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September 28, 2008 9:45pm
Craig Ranapia

Yawn.. tell it to your buddy Spondre.

Why don’t you? Oh, that’s right — you didn’t take the hint, and got your arse banned after you decided to go trolling where you weren’t welcome. Go cry around someone who gives a fuck, loser.

While the spectator in me would like to see an 8 party debate, to do it true justice it would need to be an event of telethon proportions and I for one do not have the time to subject myself to that.

Well, slightlyrightly, you can watch what you like. And Key and Clark are perfectly free to decline to participate in any debate they like for whatever reasons they like — but I still wish TVNZ and Three would grow a pair and tell these two that they don’t actually get to dictate news and current affairs coverage. One or the other of them will end up as Prime Minister, but someone should write them a reality check and suggest they’re going to need at least one other party to do it. (Sorry, no matter how much I’d like it to be so, I don’t believe National is going to be in a position to govern alone.) And perhaps us dumb peasants should get to decide whether the minor parties are relevant or not?

Could you imaging a TV Debate with Winston at the moment?

Not on a full stomach, but that’s not the point. He’s currently the leader of party currently represented in Parliament, and which is contesting the general election.
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September 28, 2008 10:08pm
Redbaiter

“Why don’t you? Oh, that’s right — you didn’t take the hint, and got your arse banned after you decided to go trolling where you weren’t welcome. Go cry around someone who gives a fuck, loser.”

Well, just goes to show don’t it? The big protector of minority rights gets into bed with an ignorant thug like Spondre because he shuts down people that Cwaigy doesn’t “approve” of. Like Trotter and Hooten, Mr. Ranapia endorses the behaviour of this clueless jack booted drone at the same time as he describes himself as a “liberal”. Its why I have nothing but contempt for such as you Cwaigy, and why I call you pseudo liberals. You’re not liberals. You are rigid authoritarians who jealously guard the microphone of opinion and seek to snatch it from the grasp of anybody who might say something you don’t agree with. Liberals.. pffft- you are fakes, frauds and charlatans.

Here’s the news Cwaigy. I wouldn’t subject my posts to the approval of a thug like Spondre. That you do so willingly, and so enthusiastically subscribe to the morally corrupt ideas that underpin that blog, (such as among other things, the publication of the IP addresses of users) is only more evidence of your craven supplication to the sick socialist concept of cultural totalitarianism.
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September 28, 2008 10:20pm
Christopher

I find myself in agreement with Redbaiter.

The blogs “produced” by Spondre are bullshit – any comments he doesn’t like are deleted.

Posting someone’s IP address is also very, very uncool.

Redbaiter, why don’t you just post through a proxy?
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September 28, 2008 10:36pm
Redbaiter

“Redbaiter, why don’t you just post through a proxy?”

I could, but as I have said above, I would prefer not to support such an insipid and hypocritical enterprise. Trotter and Hooten have made a big mistake aligning themselves with such an irredeemable idiot. Nobody with any sense would do so.
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September 28, 2008 10:42pm
Craig Ranapia

Batier:

Far be it from me to get in the way of your martyr trip, but I’ve consistently said nobody’s right to free speech obliges anyone else to give them a platform. DPF puts up with your shit, that’s his call. Bryan Spondre doesn’t, that’s his. Get over yourself, drama queen.
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September 29, 2008 7:03am
Redbaiter

“DPF puts up with your shit, that’s his call. Bryan Spondre doesn’t, that’s his.”

Not the issue yellow back, and you know it.
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September 29, 2008 5:03pm

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