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April 19, 2008 11:43am by David Farrar

Some cartoons don’t need comments

From Stuff.

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Tom Scott

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big bruv

If Tom Scott is turning against dear leader then you know it is all over.
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April 19, 2008 11:57am
tim barclay

Middle NZ is under a squeeze especially with food prices and petrol. And some of that could be placed at Labour’s door. A tax cut of $15-20, though I suspect there will be some upwards movement in family care as well, will not help them much as that sort of cut COULD have been easily afforded in 2000, 2002 and 2005. Multiply that by 8 and you will realise how much the Labour Party have cost families. I would wager it is about the size of the average person’s credit card debt. So people have BORROWED to make up for the meaness of the Labour Party regarding over-taxation.
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April 19, 2008 12:04pm
Murray

And this isn’t the first instance bb.

Helen, Tom Scott is taking you to the cleaners. Get a clue dumass. Back your bags now and avoid the November rush.
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April 19, 2008 12:17pm
He-Man

I wonder what Clark had to do with the F&P job losses?
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April 19, 2008 12:32pm
big bruv

He-Man

“I wonder what Clark had to do with the F&P job losses?”

About as much as she has to do with the great economic conditions the country had enjoyed over the last nine years, if she wants to take credit for the good things then she MUST be blamed for the bad.

Suck it up Klark, the job losses at F&P are down to you.
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April 19, 2008 12:44pm
roger nome

Why no comment DPF – Is it because you know that child poverty doubled under the National government that you worked for?

See the table on page 61 of the 2007 social report.

http://www.socialreport.msd.govt.nz/economic-standard-living/population-low-incomes.html

Where as a study has shown that the reduction in measured child poverty after full implementation [of working for families] is likely to be close to 70%

http://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/publications/msd/journal/issue22/22-pages19-54.doc
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April 19, 2008 12:47pm
big bruv

It’d going to be a long six months Roger if you feel you have to defend or try and deflect every attack on your corrupt govt.

You would be better to use that time getting used to the idea that Labour are finished, once the real story comes out you may well see the end of the Labour party as we know it.
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April 19, 2008 12:56pm
roger nome

“I wonder what Clark had to do with the F&P job losses?”

Maybe DPF wants tarrifs resurrected to protect NZ industry? Who knows.
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April 19, 2008 12:56pm
Murray

Fuck off dickhead, the blame the last national government for everything line has long reached its expiration date.
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April 19, 2008 12:59pm
roger nome

Ah, Murray, calm down won’t you? .
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April 19, 2008 1:05pm
Bok

Yep
Serious worries over at the Red Square. The paid lackeys have started popping up on weekends.
Overtime RN or just no more Wiki articles to fleece as research?
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April 19, 2008 1:16pm
roger nome

Oh dear – looks like there’s a flame war brewing – usually happens straight after I provide concrete evidence which reveals the true nature of the National Party. Too bad I guess.
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April 19, 2008 1:36pm
slightlyrighty

While not wanting to fall for the threadjack Roger, what good are the social policies of Labour if they do not take into account the economic reality of the situation?

What good is WFF if any gain is more than offset by rising food, fuel, electrical and accomodation charges? The average family of 4 with a mortgage now needs to find an extra $1000 per month. Where is that coming from?

What good are free or subsidised doctor visits if there is no doctor to go and visit? Many areas of NZ have an acute GP shotage with famililes waiting for months to get on a waiting list to wait more months to get on the books of a GP.

What good is 20 free hours if it doesn’t cover the costs of a child at an early childcare center, and remember that Childcare centers use utilities as well.

What good is an idealology that puts wage rises in place without regard to affordability, as opposed to increasing productivity first? I bet F&P workers in Mosgiel are happy about the new minimum wage eh Roger?

These are the chickens that are coming home to roost, the list of empty spaces grows.

Empty Wallets of middle New Zealand
Empty petrol tanks
Empty workplaces by closure or industrial actions
Empty cupboards and larders as the less well off struggle even more, while being overtaxed.
all because of empty promises by a government that has no idea of the consequences of their actions.

Take for example, the EFA. A better illustration of unintended consequences you could not find.
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April 19, 2008 1:41pm
Bogusnews

Crap Roger.

I find it very hard believe ANYTHING that comes out of manipulated statistics. For example, HC is vigorously saying that to compensate for the rush of people leaving NZ we are bringing lots of “skilled migrants” back in. Technically she is right. Labour has changed the definition of a skilled migrant. Under National it was someone with 180 points (a UK trained doctor). Under Labour it has been reduced to 100 points (an indian engineer with a mail order diploma.)

So technically she is right, but any decent NZ’er knows she is at best being utterly deceptive.

I have become privy to a large amount of other information while completing consulting assignments for govt departments. My advice to NZ’ers is, BELIEVE NOTHING THIS GOVERNMENT (OR THEIR SPOKESPEOPLE) SAYS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, AND ONLY HALF WHAT THEY PUT IN WRITING.

It’s a bit similar to the BS police stats showing crime is way down (when for eg surveys show that over 60% of the rural community don’t even bother phoning them anymore).

All I can say is you’re a sad man Roger if you are sucked in so easily.
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April 19, 2008 1:53pm
He-Man

“BELIEVE NOTHING THIS GOVERNMENT (OR THEIR SPOKESPEOPLE) SAYS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, AND ONLY HALF WHAT THEY PUT IN WRITING.”

Haha exactly.
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April 19, 2008 2:01pm
slightlyrighty

“BELIEVE NOTHING THIS GOVERNMENT (OR THEIR SPOKESPEOPLE) SAYS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, AND ONLY HALF WHAT THEY PUT IN WRITING.”

and for gods sake, don’t listen to the singing
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April 19, 2008 2:09pm
roger nome

SR – I’m not interested in responding in any detail to your vacuous rhetoric. Redbaiter could provide a more substantive argument than that.

Bogus – Possibly made up anecdotal evidence isn’t going to cut it i’m afraid.
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April 19, 2008 2:29pm
Chicken Little

I feel sorry for your mum Roger.
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April 19, 2008 2:35pm
roger nome

Still trolling I see CL. Yawn…..
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April 19, 2008 2:40pm
Bogusnews

Roger,

Try talking to any manager in the immigration department. They will confirm it.
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April 19, 2008 2:41pm
Inventory2

roger nome – speaking of evidence – mine arrived by courier today

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2008/04/weekend-reading.html
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April 19, 2008 3:37pm
scrubone

Gosh, so National’s true agenda is to starve babies.

I’m so ashamed – I’m going to go to the next meeting of the party and tell everyone, and we’ll all resign our memberships in protest.

But then, maybe we should wait and see if Labour members resign first. After all, their agenda is to starve babies, empty factories, and run doctors out of town.

Hm, come to think of it, National turned around the economy when it starved babies. Labour’s doing so much more and it’s turning around the economy too. They’ve always got to go one step further I guess… though I’d say that turning the economy into crap from growth is a bit easier than turning it into growth from crap.
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April 19, 2008 3:57pm
PaulL

Roger:

Why no comment DPF – Is it because you know that child poverty doubled under the National government that you worked for?

Right, based on a study by the Ministry of Social Development. Do you have an independent study? I took a look at this study, and what it tells me is that the percentage of families earning less than 60% of the median income went up from around 10% in 1990 to a peak of 23% in 1994, then started dropping. The drop has continued at the same rate under National and under Labour. Comments being:
– since when was 60% of median income the definition of poverty? It’s a stupid definition.
– we also learn that households with children often earn less than 60% of the median (35% of them). Well, duh. A household with children often has only one income earner, what do we reckon that might do to household income?
– we learn that people get wealthier with age. There’s a turn up for the books – young people often earn less than 60% of the median income, older people earn more

You’re telling us nothing, and misrepresenting what this means.

Where as a study has shown that the reduction in measured child poverty after full implementation [of working for families] is likely to be close to 70%

Key word was likely. The study was done before WFF, and looks like it was part of the justification for WFF. Excuse me if I am a little cynical about it. How about we wait for a study that shows the actual result.
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April 19, 2008 4:07pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

PaulL:

You’re [Phillip John/Roger Nome] telling us nothing, and misrepresenting what this means.

You’ve forgotten your comment (about a fortnight ago) about giving up on debating Phillip John/Roger Nome, as he invariably distorts and misrepresents his “statistics” and “evidence” beyond recognition? 🙂
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April 19, 2008 4:53pm
slightlyrighty

Roger.

I asked you several valid questions. You seem content not to argue the points raised, but only to respond with a generalised statement deriding the questions.

Obviously you have been watching Labour Cabinet ministers at question-time.

But to quantify some issues.

A family of 4, 2 adults and 2 kids under 12, on an income of 50000 per year, would get an extra $140 per week.

Lets for the sake of arguement, assume that this family had a mortgage on an average house some 5 years ago, (say 280000, which is what you would pay for a house in say Lower Hutt at that time, assuming a 10% deposit and an interest rate of 6%) they would be paying $371 per week.

At current mortgage interest rates, they would be paying $503 instead of $371.

Power is going up by 8%, assuming $200 per month(and that is bloody low for most households) Thats another $16

Petrol has gone up by how much in the last 5 years? 50% from $1.35 to $2.00 per liter? from $60 to $90 per week?

Food has gone up by at least 10%. Theres another $20 per week.

Thats $200 added expenses per week

The government gives you 140 per week.

Also the Royal New Zealand College of GP’s has highlighted not only a shortage of GPs, but a looming crisis with 72% of GPs between 41 and 60, with not enough GP’s coming through to replace them when they hang up the stethoscope. They have been alerting the Govt to this fact for some time if this press release from NZ first is anything to go by.

http://www.nzfirst.org.nz/content/display_item.php?t=0&i=2140

Roger. These are real concerns affecting real New Zealanders.

Talk to the kiwi’s who are going through Mortgagee Sales. Talk to parents who can’t get their kids seen to by a gp. Talk to the kiwi’s who are paying through the nose for dairy products (I know you are a vegan, so you may not realise how much we are paying for domestically produced product).

This is not vacuous rhetoric. This is happening in NZ now. To dismiss these questions as rhetoric is exactly why Labour should lose the election in November.
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April 19, 2008 4:58pm
1984

“I wonder what Clark had to do with the F&P job losses?”

I’m sure it wouldn’t be hard to come up with a list of legislation/regulation over the period of the Labour Government that have made it incrementaly harder to keep a plant going in NZ. I mean off the top of my head there’s a week extra annual leave for the work force, and the change to public holiday entitlements.

He-Man and Roger could counter with things they have done to make it easier for a manufacturer to operate it. Tane could also chip with the EPMU’s wins over the same period.

Increments add up I’m afraid.
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April 19, 2008 5:33pm
JSF2008

havnt read any posts on this subject, but dear helen,Mrs davis, is one STUPID EDUCATED WOMAN.Think your time is up, retire dumby, with some respect.or posbible dignity,go to the UN
Remember helens new BEST friend COMMUNIST CHINA, MASS KILLERS IN THE PAST but helens best friend is keeping MUGABE in power so expect BLUE TRACK SUIT WEARING CHINESE coming in to keep the bitch in power, with a ship full of guns etc like in South Africa, but at least the watersiders union there has balls unlike our unions LIARPARTY SUPPORTERS to stop these arms getting to helen if it ever happense but they have stopped arms getting through to mugabe, so he cannot slaughter ,and slaughter, if only a workers union would question the never worked university activists that have NEVER SWEATED, but are stuffing our country UP, LIARBOR the toady lairbor lap dog.party KILLING OUR COUNTRY 1000 workers this week GONE , whats the tally next week i spit on liarbor and her name , and am proud of it,
remember you posters you cannot buy cheap shit countifet chinese rubbish if you are on the dole if your jobs have gone to china india, or some other slave asian hell hole ,
ps any grammar mistakes ,i dont give a shit ,remember CAVEAT EMPTOR, read and thats it
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April 19, 2008 5:37pm
reid

There’s a great article by Michael Bassett who dissects Liarbore’s hollow policies. Very interesting reading. One quote:

In 1990 at the very last Labour caucus that I attended, when everyone was moping over our well-deserved trouncing, Helen Clark, then Deputy Leader, told the assembled Labour MPs something that I wrote down carefully at the time. She said she would be – and I quote from my caucus notes – “as vicious, nasty and opportunist as anyone” in the fight to return Labour to the Treasury benches. Those remarks were a forewarning. The only religious belief most modern Labourites seem to hold is their divine right to govern, to impose their views on others.
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April 19, 2008 5:44pm
jafapete

Ah, more from that bitter old mysogynist, voice-from-the-dark-ages, Bassett. All seems soooo yesterday.

But, I wonder who HC had in mind when she said, “as anyone”?
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April 19, 2008 5:51pm
reid

Ah, an ad homina response that ignores the issues completely jafapete.

I’m shocked.
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April 19, 2008 6:10pm
Inventory2

jafapete:

“The voyage from political innocence to corruption does not happen overnight. It follows evolutionary steps. Helen Clark’s public journey to the dark side began in her very first week in power. You may think that you know about the dismissal of Police Commissioner Peter Doone, but what Helen Clark did behind the scenes to Doone has never been fully documented, until now, and it sets the tone for her entire administration.”

Absolute Power – the Helen Clark Years – page 17

Right now, from where I am sitting (and reading), it is Helen Clark who is yesterday’s woman.
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April 19, 2008 6:13pm
bwakile

Keep up the good work Inventory2
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April 19, 2008 6:18pm
JSF2008

Love tv 3 news ,tonight helens best friend the commie chinese have sent 77 tons of arms to keep a nasty old fart in power mugabe,, one of helens old best friends, the thousands of bullets and the missiles have been greased with the sweat of TIBETIANS, what will the death of our countries jobs do to keep our lying pm in power, no functioning country no need for a liarbor pm , i know a visit by the chinese navy, and a bunch of 18 hundred blue track suit wearing chinese enforcers replaced every three years with more enforcers , to keep us loving china(NEVER)
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April 19, 2008 6:19pm
Inventory2

Cheers bwakile – there’ll be an update on Keeping Stock later tonight when I’ve digested a bit more
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April 19, 2008 6:26pm
dad4justice

Will all the empty NZ factories be storage facilities for Chinese made ammunition?
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April 19, 2008 6:28pm
philu

what ‘issues’ reid..?

the dyspeptic burblings of bassett..?

getouttahere..!

basset and the other dyspeptic one..dug-luss..would make a good set of book-ends..

but that’s about it..

and one thing is for certain..

their respective mewlings should be studiously ignored..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 19, 2008 6:39pm
bwakile

Thats right Philu
two men with integrity
No place for them in Hulun and Jeanette’s bananatopia
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April 19, 2008 6:43pm
philu

what exactly is a ‘bananatopia’..?

and where can i buy one..?

sounds yummy..!

phil9whoar.co.nz)
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April 19, 2008 6:54pm
dad4justice

“bananatopia” is in your bong philu. Sounds scummy.
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April 19, 2008 6:55pm
emmess

>>Right, based on a study by the Ministry of Social Development. Do you have an independent study? I took a look at this study, and what it tells me is that the percentage of families earning less than 60% of the median income went up from around 10% in 1990 to a peak of 23% in 1994, then started dropping. The drop has continued at the same rate under National and under Labour.

That’s right
It’s simple to reduce relative “poverty” when you tax the fuck out of the middle income earners and constantly pay more and more to the bludgers
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April 19, 2008 6:57pm
reid

Gee phil, I would have thought you’d be more on to it than you appear. For example, try disproving the following, with something other than ad homina and ellipses:

for the first few years of this Labour Government our growth rate continued at above the OECD average. There was excited talk of rising up the OECD rankings. But the discipline required was a bit like when David Lange needed to cut down on food after his stomach stapling: he didn’t and soon put on weight again. Our advantage disappeared, and instead we dropped behind the OECD average, despite record commodity prices. As that occurred, leading Labour politicians did what an uninformed public usually expects of governments – they stepped up their level of economic intervention and centralized decision making that should always be left nearer the people. This increased the cost of doing business. Predictably economic growth slowed further. Productivity growth now stands at one third of what it was in the decade before this Labour Government came to office. Cullen recently said that he was in politics “to make sure that working people get their fair share of New Zealand’s success”. The cake if you like – doesn’t appear to me to be growing as fast as it was or should be, thanks in large measure to the policies he and his colleagues have adopted.

and

Controlling the parameters of political debate is something that this government excels at. Helen Clark spends a prodigious amount of time managing public opinion. Her principal acolytes are young, mostly female journalists. Deep down, they regard her as a kindly aunt or big sister, and they happily cooperate, especially when any government critic can be dismissed as politically incorrect. Ministers get away with turning the discourse into playing the man, not the ball. A recent example: when Murray McCully embarked on a footling line against Kordia’s involvement with cell-phone towers in Myanmar, Helen Clark dismissed it by abusing McCully. Another issue: the emigration of skills that has reached serious proportions, is often dismissed as the exit of anti-Labour voters, and therefore a matter of no consequence, or even cause for celebration. Jim Anderton’s early promise to entice them all home has been long forgotten.

and

This is a very oppressive government. Peter Fraser fought for freedom of the press, believing always that the interests of workers would be best served by full and free debate. Modern Labour operates in another space. It uses sycophants to confine debate to areas where Labour is more comfortable. Everything else gets ridiculed. Imprisoning ideas is Labour’s cardinal rule, and they have been extremely successful at it. The Electoral Finance Act is just the latest installment.
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April 19, 2008 6:57pm
philu

‘integrity’..yeti ‘n grit..

heh..!

‘two men..yeti ‘n grit..’

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 19, 2008 6:59pm
bwakile

Philu
Like always, you will have to go down to WINZ and get someone elses money to buy a slice .
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April 19, 2008 6:59pm
philu

‘and’ ..what..?

anyway..this is all dancing on the head of a pin/deckchair arranging..

(and as the bishop said to the actress..’you ain’t seen nothing yet!’..)

this whole ‘downturn’ business is only in the first phase..

‘acolytes’..’sycophants’..blah-blah..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 19, 2008 7:06pm
reid

Go ahead and lookup the productivity growth stats and argue those phil, just a suggestion.
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April 19, 2008 7:08pm
philu

“..It’s simple to reduce relative “poverty” when you tax the fuck out of the middle income earners ..”

emmess..going for the big lie..eh..?

the ‘middle income earners’ have been the big winners from working for families..

and business has just had a three cent tax cut..

and you..are ‘full of it’..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 19, 2008 7:14pm
getstaffed

midle income earners big winners from working for families..

That’s hilarious. “Big winners”. Priceless !!
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April 19, 2008 7:21pm
PaulL

slightlyrighty, you won’t get engagement from Roger on this. Your arguments are all about absolute poverty – everyone in NZ is getting poorer because of inflation and stagnant wages. Roger is interested in relative poverty, so long as everyone gets pulled down to the same level as the poor, it reduces relative poverty. As to how much purchasing power we actually have, that appears to be irrelevant. Hence the problem with the left.
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April 19, 2008 7:23pm
getstaffed

PaulL, agree. Relativism is the water in the pot, and we are the frog. Somehow we need to develop a national pschye that applaudes risk, effort and achievement while also preventing exploitation of the genuinely needy. we will never have equally distributed wealth (which is the lie that the left claim as their objective) but we MUST reverse our slide into global irrelevance. while our current leadership focuses on retaining power at all costs the water will get hotter and our lot will worsen
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April 19, 2008 7:35pm
jafapete

“…we will never have equally distributed wealth (which is the lie that the left claim as their objective)…”

Gosh, I learn something new on KB everyday. Been involved in left politics for decades, and don’t recall that objective even being whispered about in secret. Do you have a source for that, or is it just another inane/insane article of belief for the kiwiblog right?

If your definition of “left” is the same as the Marxist-Leninist People’s Liberation Party, then you’re probably right about that, because they don’t see the NZLP as left, and they probably do have equal distribution as an objective. Is that what you mean?

Reid: “Ah, an ad homina response that ignores the issues completely jafapete.”

Not quite completely, Reid, as I did pose the question about who HC had in mind of matching in viciousness. Something tells me that she may have been referring to the right.

Otherwise, fair cop. (BTW, may I point out that it’s “ad hominum” unless you’re trying to make a subtle point there.)
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April 19, 2008 7:51pm
philu

gee !..getstuffed..

it didn’t take you long to flash your idjit-gene..did it..?

seen many ‘reds under your bed’ lately..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 19, 2008 7:57pm
Inventory2

No phil – you are the one on mind-altering substances
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April 19, 2008 8:22pm
Michaels

The only problem with this cartoon is clark never ever uses John Key’s name.
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April 19, 2008 8:24pm
philu

inv 2..heh..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 19, 2008 8:28pm
calendar girl

“(BTW, may I point out that it’s “ad hominum” unless you’re trying to make a subtle point there.)”

jafapete, if you’re trying to show how super-smart you are by commenting on somebody else’s alleged language mistake, at least try and get it right yourself. The term is “ad hominem”.
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April 19, 2008 8:41pm
Inventory2

For anyone that’s interested, there’s a mini-review of “Absolute Power” here

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2008/04/absolute-power-first-impressions.html
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April 19, 2008 9:31pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Inventory2:

Am I right that its public release is on Monday? Have you received an advance copy? Not that there’s necessarily anything wrong with that – just curious.
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April 19, 2008 9:34pm
Inventory2

POC – I pre-ordered direct from Wishart’s company – courier dropped it off this morning. I’m guessing the pre-orders were dispatched yesterday. On sale to the public on Monday, but as Wishart said, possibly not on Tuesday!
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April 19, 2008 9:40pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Inventory2

A week is a long time in politics – but a day is a long time under the EFA 🙂
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April 19, 2008 9:44pm
Inventory2

You’re not wrong there POC – and it hasn’t been a vintage week for Labour. I guess they could always try and get Absolute Power declared illegal by the Electoral Commission!
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April 19, 2008 9:47pm
reid

jafapete says, in response to a post on a Bassett article:

originally…

Ah, more from that bitter old mysogynist, voice-from-the-dark-ages, Bassett. All seems soooo yesterday.

But, I wonder who HC had in mind when she said, “as anyone”?

and later…

Reid: “Ah, an ad homina response that ignores the issues completely jafapete.”

Not quite completely, Reid, as I did pose the question about who HC had in mind of matching in viciousness. Something tells me that she may have been referring to the right.

Otherwise, fair cop. (BTW, may I point out that it’s “ad hominum” unless you’re trying to make a subtle point there.)

Yeh I apologise for ignoring the last bit of your remark jafapete. I didn’t realise there was a deeper meaning and was assuming that it was simply the usual lefty dissembling. But do you have someone in mind, or are you referring to the amorphous VRWC that lefties have blamed for mankind’s evil since Marx hit the headlines?
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April 19, 2008 9:56pm
reid

BTW phil, how’s that analysis of the productivity growth stats coming along?

Smirk.
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April 19, 2008 10:02pm
Inventory2

reid – there’s only one kind of growth that philu is interested in the productivity of!!
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April 19, 2008 10:05pm
Chicken Little

Nose hairs?
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April 20, 2008 7:28pm

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