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January 19, 2008 10:46am by David Farrar

General Debate 19 January 2008

Yay a long weekend for Wellingtonians.

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reid

Who wants to talk about Iran and Bush’s ME trip?
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January 19, 2008 10:53am
reid

Starter for 10 how about this from Time?
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January 19, 2008 10:56am
John Dalley

He just can’t get that look of stupidity of his face.
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January 19, 2008 11:01am
reid

No he can’t can he? Some call him Smirky as in the Smirking Chimp. Even though he’s only the figurehead, he’s definitely a genuine idiot. Worst President ever.

Interesting how the world’s governments are now being so overt in its condemnation – almost unprecedented, but mostly directed at him personally I think.

The answer to the ME is pure and simple but the US continually refuses to apply sufficient pressure on Israel to address the Palestinian issue – the latest talks were just empty words. If the US withdrew all arms exports until Israel gave P what Bush himself said they needed – a contiguous viable state, maybe it might change. But it’s always just words, empty words.
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January 19, 2008 11:17am
reid

I wonder how many know that the Balfour declaration itself says:

November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty’s Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

“His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour
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January 19, 2008 11:26am
Tane

You guys see Tim Shadbolt’s been exposed receiving money for his anti-EFA campaign from Hollow Men the Talley brothers?

http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=967
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January 19, 2008 11:26am
reid

How about another topic then? The NH recount and Russia-US relations?
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January 19, 2008 11:55am
pdm

If Talley’s want to spend their money funding Tim’s campaign good on them.

After all it is their money.

They haven’t stolen it from taxpayers like Labour did in 2005 and no doubt will do to an even greater extent in 2007.
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January 19, 2008 11:56am
Chicken Little

Piss off link whore.

Self linking should be banned, as it is, its very bad net etiquette and shows a lack of respect for DPF.

Also………. Hollow Men, is that it?
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January 19, 2008 11:56am
pdm

Sorry 2008.
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January 19, 2008 11:56am
CharlotteM

And Tane have you seen that Labour has been exposed for putting a Labour party activist into Government House as Official Secretary???

http://wellingtonhive.blogspot.com
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January 19, 2008 11:57am
Adam Smith

BTW continuing in my pissed off frame of mind from another thread, can we all stop appearing to accept that the thesis advanced by that fantasist Nicky Hager, in his turgid tome the Hollow Men, is some sort of unquestionable holy writ, rather than a fanciful interpretation of stolen documents and supposed information from unknown sources.
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January 19, 2008 12:04pm
Lee C

Charlotte I liked the blog will link it to mine http://monkeyswithtypewriter.blogspot.com/

Adam Smith see Nicky Hager’s Diarys – ‘The Hollow greengrocer’ there also
http://monkeyswithtypewriter.blogspot.com/2008/01/nicky-hagers-diary-hollow-greengrocer.html

message ends
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January 19, 2008 12:14pm
Sushi Goblin

Ummm, isn’t Tane’s comment interesting.

Perhaps he would rather have the SIT campaign funded by Shadbolt’s ratepayers, in the same way that taxpayers have inadvertently ended up funding Labour. Private funding is bad, but public funding is GOOD!

I’m sure Shadbolt’s voters will retrospectively approve Shadbolt’s decision to seek private funding, which is better than the Labour Party retrospectively approving its own illegal rape of the taxpayer’s coffers.
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January 19, 2008 12:14pm
Barnsley Bill

Tane is missing the most important word in the article he uses to “prove” Shadbolts funders.
That word is PROBABLY. Another fabricated beat up by Tane and the axis of stupid.
What strange little lives they must lead where people spending their own money is wrong and not to be trusted. The only way to fund anything is via the public purse. Initiative and hard work are evil in the fevered imaginations of these numptys.
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January 19, 2008 12:22pm
RossK

Ron Paul slaps down the interviewer here, and makes a pretty witty insightful comment about schizophrenic american foreign policy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlacFmRGPgI
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January 19, 2008 12:22pm
Tane

You guys are hilarious. The part of the Hollow Men about Talleys (see chapter 15, pages 243-246) are documented evidence. There’s nothing to dispute about it. The Talleys offered National a million bucks and wanted to funnel it through a front organisation to get around electoral law. Now they’re funding a supposedly “independent” campaign to overturn our electoral laws, as Tim Shadbolt admitted himself in the press.

Have a read through the comments section of the link I posted for more. None of this is in dispute.
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January 19, 2008 12:47pm
ghostwhowalks

Adam Smith just ask Don Brash how much of HM is ‘holy writ’.

Remember Don, no longer leader of the NP, no longer an MP, no longer living in the family home.

Otherwise Brian Connell has a lot to aswer for
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January 19, 2008 12:49pm
cha

The bigoted past of Ron Paul

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=e2f15397-a3c7-4720-ac15-4532a7da84ca

Ron Paul on issues.

http://www.issues2000.org/TX/Ron_Paul.htm

Ron Paul Rejects Evolution

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2007/12/ron_paul_rejects_evolution.php

Ron Paul’s record in Congress

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/11/ron-pauls-record-in-congress.html
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January 19, 2008 12:56pm
Sushi Goblin

Tane, how is private funding for third party groups bad but raping the public coffers for Labour good? Will you answer this question here, or merely retrospectively answer the question on your own blog?

I see Ghostie is back…feeling caustic (or is it autistic) as per usual I see.
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January 19, 2008 12:58pm
Lee C

Tane – “Now they’re funding a supposedly “independent” campaign to overturn our electoral laws, as Tim Shadbolt admitted himself in the press.”

Do you really believe the crap you write, or are yo just as cynical a demogogue, as those you accuse?

Oh my God! Are they trying to ‘overturn our electoral laws’?!?

Call out the guards! Those bastards. Evidently the EFA did not go far enough as a deterrent!

Perhaps we need to start enforcing the EFA properly, as it it obvious that some people just will not take a hint, and butt out of the debate. Oh sorry, now it’s Law, the debate is over.

Wishful thinking comrade.

On the bright side, while the EFA is being increasingly enforced against ‘rich pricks’ the unions will be able to get on with their own multi-million-dollar parallel campaigning in favour of the Labour Party.

Oh and the Government will have loads of tax-dollars to access for it ‘pubic information’ television blitz over the coming year.

But look on the bright side, while these pesky types are trying to overthrow the law, at least we have a level playing field and are protected against the ‘Tyranny of the Majority’, eh?

Otherwise who knows what kinds of cash sums would hve been expended on rorting the democratic process?
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January 19, 2008 1:15pm
Tane

Wow, Lee, I’m amazed you seem to think the idea of secretive million dollar deals between political parties and big business is okay, and that you don’t see any significance in these same people backing a supposedly independent campaign against laws that would restrict that kind of behaviour. There are a class of people in this country who want to rort and buy our elections and they’re willing to spend big bucks to do it. That’s not very democratic.

And as an aside, unions have never run “multi-million dollar parallel campaigns”. In 2005 the “Waitemata Trust” (whoever they are) donated more to the Nats than all unions donated to Labour combined. Go have a look at http://www.elections.org.nz and see for yourself.

I guess there’s not much point engaging with you folk. The commenters at Kiwiblog seem happier to block their ears and refuse to accept documented fact than have to challenge their own side.
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January 19, 2008 1:43pm
RossK

Geez Cha,

So he is a christian who doesn’t accept the correctness of evolutionary theory and he doesn’t favour abortion. Oh and he doesn’t like the pre-emptive strike policy. Or the Fed printing money or the country running a deficit of 600billion a year. Yeah what a nut. And he thinks the rights of citizenship shouldn’t be extended to the children of illegal immigrants. Crazzy!
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January 19, 2008 1:45pm
Adam Smith

Well Tane is right on one point there is a class of people in this country who want to buy and rort our elections.

The Labour Party and it’s union cohorts.

That is not very democratic.
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January 19, 2008 1:46pm
Adam Smith

BTW why is it that socialists always bleat about class?
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January 19, 2008 1:47pm
reid

Because they don’t understand how life works. For example,

“It is a socialist idea that making profits is a vice; I consider the real vice is making losses.” ~ Winston Churchill
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January 19, 2008 2:00pm
RossK

Churchill also said (speaking of one of his political ooponents) “He has all of the virtues I despise and none of the vices I admire”
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January 19, 2008 2:03pm
Camryn

Tane – Care to link to a quote where Tim claims his ‘campaign’ to be ‘independent’?

Also, it’s a pretty high standard of independence you’re suggesting. Can he not accept funding from anyone without being tied to other causes those donors support? If I donate multi-millions to both ACT and Greenpeace, does that mean that Greenpeace isn’t independent from ACT?

I know my argument contains a major false comparison, but all of yours do to so I thought it’d be OK.
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January 19, 2008 2:06pm
Mark

Tane, nice to see you still going on about a stolen election.

The theft of over $800,000 in taxpayers money was used by Labour to do just that.

Not to mention the $15 million used in advertiding WFF prior to the election plus about another $50 million.

Tane you don’t believe in free speech. Why don’t you come out and say it – you want a one-party state because you don’t believe in democracy or free speech.
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January 19, 2008 2:31pm
Lee C

I can absolutely see where you are coming from Tane, But as far as I can see the international Labour movement is a global corporation too, and when you talk about the influence of big business and rorting elections, I have to ask you of the two of us, which is more likely to receive his pay packet from a globalised interest this month. Moi, a humble self-employed retailer or vous – a union employee.

When you indicate the influence of vested interests, you only have to look into your own bank-account, mortgage payments groery bill and own livelihood to see who has the greater claim to being suceptible to blocking their ears.

Take yourself. As a union emloyee, how many hours a year do you estimate you expend during your own work hours promoting the Labour Party? Or blogging to attack National or its allies? Can those hours be accounted for? Someone is paying you for them aren’t they? If not, why not? Surely the basis of the Labour movement is tht your labour time and efforst should be renumerated? if so, why is it not counted against a political party’s election costs?

My theory is because if it were (and face it the CPU specifically asked for this kind of activity to be exempt from the EFA at Select Committee) – it would equate, on top of the printing, distribution and organisation of union promotion of Labour, as well as the open donations to a ‘multi-million dollar’ parallel campaign.
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January 19, 2008 2:32pm
Lee C

sorry not CPU – EPMU –

Another thing while I’m at it I note that the Canadian electoral reform on which aspects of the EFA were based also had restrictions on union involvement with political parties during elections, but they missed that bit out for the kiwi version, didn’t they?

AND Far from having my ears blocked – that is why I would dearly like to see a Royal Commission into Electoral reform to sort out the whole stinking mess on both sides – root and branch –

Don’t you agree that would be a great idea Tane? Or are you one of those who are ‘happier to block their ears and refuse to accept documented fact than have to challenge their own side.’ ?
‘
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January 19, 2008 2:42pm
Adam Smith

Lee C

I totally agree with you, that root and branch reform is required, resulting from a Royal Commission.
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January 19, 2008 2:50pm
David Baigent

Heh, Lee C. I think you are speaking for a rapidly increasing number of NZ people.
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January 19, 2008 3:00pm
Chicken Little

Tane – could you please provide a link to ‘documented evidence’ , that is, the source documents not Hagers take on them.

Thanks

CL
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January 19, 2008 3:11pm
roger nome

“I totally agree with you, that root and branch reform is required, resulting from a Royal Commission.”

You mean like the 1993 royal commission, which found the following?

28. Registered political parties should be required annually to disclose audited statements of income at electorate, regional and national levels. The required disclosures should state total funds received and the names and addresses of individual donors who over the course of the year have given money, goods or services valued, in total, in excess of $250 at electorate level or $2,500 at regional or national level. The amount of each disciosable donation should also be revealed, and all returns should be available for public inspection (para. 8.23). no more anon donations

30. Limits on candidate election expenditure should be retained and the Electoral Act should be amended so that election expenditure limitations are extended to include spending by or on behalf of political parties (para. 8.37).

40. Direct State funding of registered political parties and independent candidates should be introduced along the lines outlined in paras. 8.163 to 8.166, and administered by way of a sliding scale based on voter support in electorates contested. Chapter 9 : Administration of the System and Miscellaneous Matters

http://www.elections.org.nz/royal-commission-recommendations-list.html

Not bad ideas hey?
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January 19, 2008 3:14pm
roger nome

CL – they’re probably quotes anyway, not “Hager’s take on them”.
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January 19, 2008 3:17pm
roger nome

” But as far as I can see the international Labour movement is a global corporation too”

Wouldn’t go that far LeeC – for instance, there’s massive difference in philosphy between the Continental European Unions and the NZ Union movement. Though you can be forgiven for not knowing this.

“When you indicate the influence of vested interests, you only have to look into your own bank-account….

Yeah Tane, show us that million dollar check you signed off from your personal bank account, aimed at policy getting concessions that will fatten your wallet by many more millions 😉
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January 19, 2008 3:24pm
roger nome

sorry should have been cheque…
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January 19, 2008 3:30pm
roger nome

BTW LeeC – Union density hasn’t actually increased at all since National left power – still only 20% of people in paid employment belong to a union. So it’s debatable as to whether a change in government would alter this situation – i.e. it wouldn’t mean much in terms of the bank balances of unions.

There’s a good reason for this. Unlike their European counterparts, the NZCTU looks to achieve its goals through lobbying the government for worker friendly policy concessions rather than collective bargaining.
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January 19, 2008 3:37pm
Frank.

What is the state of World economy?

Is it a case of Nero fiddling while Rome burns?

The Chairman of the Federal Reserve forecast a break in the DOW and the DOW dropped 300 points quickly.

Gold price has been rising steadily, and is likely to go even higher. This does not bode well for the equity market’s share prices?

With rising food prices, consumer demand will fall. Will the average general equity investor seek refuge in cash which would cause a further decline in the equity market?
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January 19, 2008 3:39pm
Tane

Hey Roger, yeah Lee’s obsession with me is quite a laugh. You’d think he’d want to actually gather some facts before she started guessing my place of employment and what I spend my working hours doing, but hey, each to their own.

His comments about the international Labour movement being a global corporation are similarly odd.

Camryn:

Tane – Care to link to a quote where Tim claims his ‘campaign’ to be ‘independent’?

Is the fact he went to the effort to set up a front group called “Friends of SIT” enough for you?

http://www.friendsofsit.co.nz/

Adam Smith:

I>The Labour Party and it’s union cohorts. That is not very democratic.

I’m not sure what you’re on about here because you’ve chosen to make your point through innuendo rather than evidence. I gather you’re unaware union membership is voluntary, that only some unions are affiliated to or donate to the Labour Party and that all of this is subject to each union’s democratic processes? Oh, and they declare all campaign donations publicly too – check out http://www.elections.org.nz. Sounds pretty democratic to me. Far more so than, say, the Waitemate Trust. Who exactly are they, Adam?

why is it that socialists always bleat about class?

Probably because it exists and it affects people’s lives, but that wasn’t the sense I was using it in my comment.

—

Righto, that’s that sorted. I’m off to enjoy the rest of the sun.
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January 19, 2008 4:16pm
Tane

“before she started” should read “before he started”. Oops. No offence intended Lee, but I’m constantly getting your gender confused.

Anyway, about that sun…
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January 19, 2008 4:17pm
reid

I don’t believe we have even seen the beginning of the worst Frank.

What interests me is the geopolitical opportunities that are opening up for those who have massive USD holdings, esp China and Japan.

Note that China has offered a S10 bn injection fund to US banks. This is just the start of a buy up of US assets for pennies.

If the US does anything unpalatable to China, such as bomb Iran, then China may be tempted to sell wholesale its almost trillion USD holdings, crashing the dollar.
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January 19, 2008 4:21pm
cha

RossK, Paul is backed by and accepting donations from these people.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/david-duke-speaks-ron-paul-450956.html
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January 19, 2008 4:27pm
reid

bzzt – wrong cha.

D’oh.
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January 19, 2008 4:56pm
Chicken Little

So, nothing then Tane?

Bit rich for you to be calling Lee out for not gathering facts when your whole beat up is not actually based on any provable facts, only Hagers innuendo.

Really you would think Hager would have widely distributed the documents by now unless………..he’s made some very shakey connections.

Have you actually met any of the mythical people that have seen them?

I’m not saying things didn’t happen but your habit of quoting Hager as fact is not backed up by anything and leaves the same sort of taste as when you back yourself up by linking to your own post on The Standard.
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January 19, 2008 4:59pm
Owen McShane

On a lighter note, (and fishing for a tane-wha) the Indian cricket team should have had a better lawyer.
My defense against the charge of racial abuse would have been “Monkey? Monkey” What Monkey? I said no such thing. I told Simmons he was a manque, – someone he aspires to be, but isn’t. How can this be racial prejudice, unless one is prejudiced against the French and their language.
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January 19, 2008 5:13pm
cha

I may be cherry picking but to me this is the money quote.

What they reveal are decades worth of obsession with conspiracies, sympathy for the right-wing militia movement, and deeply held bigotry against blacks, Jews, and gays. In short, they suggest that Ron Paul is not the plain-speaking antiwar activist his supporters believe they are backing — but rather a member in good standing of some of the oldest and ugliest traditions in American politics.

http://bidinotto.journalspace.com/?entryid=656
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January 19, 2008 5:20pm
reid

The official MSM guide to attacking Ron Paul Excerpts:

We in the mainstream media all know that Ron Paul cannot win the presidency because of his extremist views. Given this fact, it is important we don’t allow him the same media coverage as our preferred candidates. It is true that we must give him some coverage, but it is also true that we must adhere to the ‘Mass Media Ron Paul Rule’ when giving him coverage during this campaign season.

Generally, the ‘MassMedia Ron Paul Rule’ can be summed up in two words:

Marginalize him.

Here are some wonderful tactics to utilize when applying the Mass Media Ron Paul Rule:

Continually label him as a long shot candidate.

Attack his supporters. Ron Paul has a stellar personal record… His political
record is also exemplary… Because of this, attacking him on his record is a daunting task. The best method to marginalize him is to attack his supporters. This can be accomplished by calling his supporters names like ‘kooky’, ‘crazy’, ‘conspiracy nutjobs’, ‘paultards’, and the like. This is classic ‘guilt by association’ and works well on the apathetic electorate.

Call him ‘Libertarian’ as much as possible.

Continually ask him if he’s planning on running as a third party candidate.

Focus on his campaign strategy rather than his message. Ron Paul’s message of freedom, prosperity, and peace should be overshadowed by talk of his successful grassroots campaign. The more we focus on how he raises money and the types of supporters he has, the less time he has to talk about his message that is sure to resonate with most Americans. We must make all attempts to block or cloud that message. If it were to get out, it could spell doom for our chosen candidates….
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January 19, 2008 5:40pm
cha

BTW reid, if you’re going to cite this bloke I’m assuming the TFH is on.
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January 19, 2008 5:42pm
Adolf Fiinkensein

The poor demented denizens of the left have nowhere else to go. All the leftist bloggers have cut off comments, so they come here to infest Kiwiblog which for just one day, without comments, was readable.
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January 19, 2008 5:45pm
reid

TFH cha?
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January 19, 2008 5:51pm
Adam Smith

Roger Nome

I do not resile from my earlier comment. I am in favour of reform, but believe that we need a new Royal Commission.

Re anonymous donations I am not in favour of these.

I do not favour state funding either.

I think that the limits per candidate and party need adjusting to reflect today’s costs. Thereafter I favour adjustment based on CPI.

I believe that the prior Royal Commission, the EFA and MMP all require us to have a comprehensive review involving all parties and with input from the public at large not just ‘the ususal suspects’
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January 19, 2008 5:53pm
Adam Smith

Tane

Not all unions are affiliated to the Labour Party, but I doubt if they encourage their members to vote National.

I have to wonder how voluntary membership in unionised workplaces really is.

The publication of accounts etc does not of itself mean anything.

They may publish details of donations to Labour.

However, several unions ran campaigns of their own last time on various issues and it was quite clear these tended to promote labour this skirting the finance provisions.

Therefore, for the avoidance of doubt I suggest a wholesale review and a clarification in simple language of exactly what is and is not appropriate.

I really do not buy into your fantasy of a bunch of right wing ‘rich pricks’ seeking to bend the country into their image. That viewpoint is as silly as assuming all unionists and Labour activists wish to impose a Soviet style collective regime.
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January 19, 2008 5:59pm
Adam Smith

A different topic, the reposrt in theMSM about the UN seeking a ‘please explain’ response re the “terror raids”

This is somewhat rich when UN members on the relevant committee are less than free and open. I do not recall such letters being sent to Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe etc
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January 19, 2008 6:02pm
Captain Crab

Or Syria and their involvement in supporting Hezbollah in Lebenon.
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January 19, 2008 6:11pm
reid

Or Israel and their incursions into Gaza.
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January 19, 2008 6:13pm
Lee C

I am flattered tath Tane thinks I have an obsession with him. In the absence of any attempt by him to disclose whoo he is or what he does for a living,i can only assume.
He claims to be ‘active in the labour movement’ and ‘just a dude who thought it would be fun to start a blog (The VDS)’ so fine.

The points the the nome raised are all fine by me. if we are to have transparrency and not a pissing contest about electoral reform. like I said ‘root and branch’. I personally have no problem with the democratic tradition of consultation and debate. In fact it is what will save us from the nutters of all political persuasions.

But the EFA as it was formulated drafted and enacted – a crock of shit.

We need to clear the decks and start again on this.

Re the remarks about the international labour movement yes i agree about philosophical diffrences that exist again fine. But the same philospohical differences were never raised in any discussion or criticism of say brash when he visited American right wingers. Again, this issue should not be a pissing contest, it should be treated with the seriouslness it merits. So far it has been a travesty.
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January 19, 2008 6:28pm
Lee C

ps http://monkeyswithtypewriter.blogspot.com/2008/01/royal-commission-on-elctoral-reform.html
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January 19, 2008 6:31pm
reid

Taking up the point, Adam, I wonder how influential is the indigenous people’s lobby in the UN or possibly whether because its probably small and parochial, and therefore quite easy to influence, that that may be the reason behind it?
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January 19, 2008 6:33pm
Lee C

well so much for seriousness… but all the same.
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January 19, 2008 6:54pm
reid

Adolf, “The poor demented denizens of the left have nowhere else to go. All the leftist bloggers have cut off comments, so they come here to infest Kiwiblog which for just one day, without comments, was readable.”

Personally, I think the success of blogs is not because the host is erudite, but because it gives one a chance to argue points with others of many colours. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, but often you learn. The more people the blog attracts, the better the competition.
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January 19, 2008 7:10pm
Tane

The poor demented denizens of the left have nowhere else to go. All the leftist bloggers have cut off comments

Adolf: It’s pretty desperate if you have to resort to making things up. The Standard, Kiwiblogblog, sproutandbean, Newzblog and Public Address all allow comments, just to name a few.

The only left blog I can think of that doesn’t allow comments is No Right Turn, which turned them off because the owner couldn’t be bothered dealing with the abuse he got from the right.
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January 19, 2008 7:43pm
Steve

Seeing as this is General Debate,
How long will it be before Nz gets over the nuke issue?
We need electricity now and in the future.
Simple answer, Nuclear Power. The fuel is just across the ditch, Australia.
Burn coal? more hydro? lots of wind turbines? Tidal generators?
Common sense is not that common anymore.
It is 2008 not 1970’s technology.
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January 19, 2008 8:46pm
Tauhei Notts

Owen McShane 5.13 p.m.
It is that sort of humour that makes this blog better than the main stream media ever will be.
Keep up the good work.
Lovely.
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January 19, 2008 9:22pm
reid

Steve: “How long will it be before Nz gets over the nuke issue?”

I predict, till the end of time. I don’t understand the objection myself, and never have. The policy hasn’t got rid of a single nuclear weapon, ever. And yet people persist. I can’t fathom it.

How long before the US lets us back into the fold?
Never, until we get rid of our nuclear stance. Thanks John Key, for putting power before principle.
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January 19, 2008 10:34pm
jocko

Owen McShane….
Brilliant!
I hope it’s attributed to you when/if the Indians pick up this defence!!
As they bask in their win they’ve been alerted to this unfinished business.
An admirable counterpoint to ‘bastard’ being considered a term of endearment to many Australians!
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January 19, 2008 11:24pm
milo

Tane –

“turned them off because he couldn’t be bothered dealing with the abuse he got from the right”

you mean the owner couldn’t be bothered defending his egregious opinions. Funnily enough, we see an example on exactly this issue, with his trumpeting that Shadbolt’s proposed action would be illegal under the old law. He is completely wrong, as the old law only had a three month regulated period. So his claim is a piece of deceitful apologia for an oppressive bill that massively extends previous regulations and sanctions.

Of course, he might claim accidental misinterpretation, or good faith, or some such. But he extends no such courtesy for his opponents. Anyone he doesn’t like is inevitably labelled a “right winger”, as if this alone is enough to condemn them. It’s breathtaking prejudice, fed by self-importance and an increasing paranoia.
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January 20, 2008 12:19am
Pascal

Tane: The commenters at Kiwiblog seem happier to block their ears and refuse to accept documented fact than have to challenge their own side.

So are you finally admitting that Labour stole the last election by illegally and knowingly overspending and that they they retrospectively changed the law to allow this?

No?

See Tane, you are the one blocking your ears and refusing to accept documented fact rather than actually challenging your own side.
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January 20, 2008 11:06am
Owen McShane

I would love the Indians to pick up on the mangue defense but I have no idea how to get the idea in front of them – attributed or not.
Maybe a knowledgeable and well connected cricket fan can pass it on.
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January 20, 2008 12:33pm
jocko

Owen
I’ve done it for you…right to the highest appropriate level.
Properly attributed of course!!
I can send you the email if you wish (but need yours)
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January 20, 2008 12:54pm
Manolo

I suggest a small tweak to democracy: the allocation of votes on the basis of annual income.

Imagine the horde of bludgers wich will continue getting one vote. Sonic, Tane and Sleep will also get one; while NPOG, GWW and Pilott may get two votes (I’m feeling generous today). Any of the sensible fellow center-right bloggers here would easily outnumber all the above, even combined.

With the tongue firmly in my cheek I reckon the idea deserves serious consideration.

Aye or nay?
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January 20, 2008 1:09pm
Pascal

Tane, you were willing to accuse everyone posting here of being unable to face the facts. I would like to see you answer as to why you consider it acceptable for the New Zealand Labour party to illegally steal an election.
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January 20, 2008 1:28pm
RossK

It is certainly a discussion point Manolo. I suggest an alternative – the allocation of votes based on hours worked.
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January 20, 2008 1:43pm
jocko

Manolo…..or, net wealth?
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January 20, 2008 2:14pm
Grant Michael McKenna

Manolo, were you perhaps thinking of votes on the basis of tax paid; each dollar paid is a vote?

Two rich pricks= fifty workers

And then the rich pricks and the workers fight because the workers are unhappy, the workers revolt succeeds and the rich pricks are killed. The nation has nobody left able to run a business, and collapses in ruins.

I come from Africa; I have no desire to replicate the disasters here- stick with nose counting; one person one vote.

Perhaps a second house, with a tax based vote, or a set of MPs elected by unions and another elected by businesses [every 10% of GDP= 1 “Senator”; every 10% of the workforce in a union= 1 “senator”]. At the moment NZ unions focus on “lobbying” because workers won’t join them- make them get members.
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January 20, 2008 6:50pm

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