General Debate 15 January 2008

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vto

I would like to know what happenned re that story of the two japanese tourists (one guide) who died in the Ureweras just before xmas. Something funny with it .. it went like this;

first media report: two japanese people found burnt to death in ureweras hut in an apparent explosion. Debris found scattered in the surrounding bush. Gas thought to be the culprit.

Second report: Gas ruled out as cause of explosion as gas bottles found intact.

Third report: police still establishing cause of explosion and deaths.

Fourth and final report: Cause of fire said to be candles.

Now all of these reports were over about a 36hour period. Absolutely nothing has been reported since.

Question – how do candles explode and scatter debris through the surrounding bush?

What actually happenned here? I have a heavy niggle in my mind that something sinister went on.
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January 15, 2008 10:05am
redbus

When does Breakfast come back?
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January 15, 2008 10:05am
vto

I think happenned has only one ‘n’ in its plurality state
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January 15, 2008 10:06am
redbus

I doubt it was anything sinister. Though I’ll be very surprised if they did end the coverage of it with a candle – it doesn’t make sense.
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January 15, 2008 10:07am
ghostwhowalks

Where is John Key.

hes not at Omaha, not a peep out him over Hilarys death other than this
from his web site

Sir Edmund was a role model for all New Zealanders. His legendary story as both a humanitarian and adventurer has been, and will continue to be, inspirational to generations.
http://www.johnkey.co.nz/index.php?/archives/305-Sir-Edmund-Hillarys-death-mourned.html

Which is the same words as Stuff, TV3 , TVNZ, Southland Times etc.

Its the new Summer game , put away the monopoly, its time to play
Where is John Key
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January 15, 2008 10:15am
burt

ghostwhowalks

Perhaps as Key has a 15 point lead in the polls he sees no need to try and make political capital from this situation.

Ed Hillary – RIP.
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January 15, 2008 10:26am
Inventory2

GWW – you are an anal retentive of the highest (or lowest!) order. Most New Zealanders will not care where John Key is – it is the school holidays and parliamentary recess, and no-one will begrudge him, Helen Clark or any politician spending time wherever they want, and with their family. Get a life pal – you’ve been reading too many of Cullen’s “rich prick” diatribes.
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January 15, 2008 10:27am
David Farrar

I wonder if GWW is seeking professional treatment for his obsession. He should. Thanks to Labour he can see the doctor for less so he really has no excuse.
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January 15, 2008 10:36am
Lee C

GWW – what a leech, trying to attach yourself to Sir Ed’s memory so you can pretend to have some kind of moral high ground.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Wake us up when you have an interesting thought.
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January 15, 2008 10:36am
Nick C

I often read kiwiblogblog and I find it ammusing that they say left bloggers are banned from kiwiblog for ‘exposing Davids spin’. What a joke! GWW is just a thread jacking troll who deserves to be banned, and yet if he is the nuts at KBB will treat him as a martyr.
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January 15, 2008 10:43am
david c

Craig Cumming to open? Matt Sinclair to hold his place? These are the serious issues people…
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January 15, 2008 10:44am
ghostwhowalks

Sharkey Key , can have all the holidays he likes,( and he does believe me), but why keep it a secret that he doesnt prefer to spend his free time in NZ
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January 15, 2008 10:45am
Lee C

zzzzzzzzzz
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January 15, 2008 10:49am
Inventory2

Question of the Day – Is ghostwhowalks really the Green-Eyed Monster in disguise? Then again, just having returned from an overseas holiday myself, am I at risk of being on the receiving end of his vitriol?
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January 15, 2008 10:52am
Bevan

Sharkey Key , can have all the holidays he likes,( and he does believe me), but why keep it a secret that he doesnt prefer to spend his free time in NZ

Maybe he’s hiding from weirdo stalkers like yourself Ghostie.

BTW, how come no comment on Dear Leader not wanting to spend her vacation with the good people of New Zealand. Id expect that if you indignation is that great when the Leader of the Opposition dares goe overseas for a break, you must be ropable when the PM decides to decant these lovely shores…..
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January 15, 2008 10:55am
Lee C

It’s Robert Owen in disguise innit?
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January 15, 2008 10:58am
Yvette

3 Responses to “Only 16% attend all youth crime meetings”
145 Responses to “Six police officers for smacking complaint”
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January 15, 2008 11:05am
Frank.

“Former Prime Minister Mike Moore has launched a move to review New Zealand’s constitutional arrangements – including consideration of becoming a republic.’

At long last a common sense approach to rid us of our corrupt democracy.

Let’s get the wheels turning.
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January 15, 2008 11:06am
Nick C

“Craig Cumming to open? Matt Sinclair to hold his place? These are the serious issues people…”

David c raises a great point people, personally I would sack Cumming for Jamie How, he has a good 1 day average and I think we need more continuity between the test and one day side. Also we should bring back Styris to replace either Fulton or Sinclair, whoever doesnt perform. If Taylor finds some form he should be given another chance in the test side as well.

Another issue is Shane Bond, do we pick him now that he is a rebel? I say no! Any player who puts a big cheque above commitment to his country doesnt deserve to be picked. If we let him have his cake and eat it other top players will not hesitate to join the rebel league.
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January 15, 2008 11:08am
Fost

I agree – te positions of Sinclair and Cummings are more important than some drivel about where a polition spent their holidays.

I disagreed with the decision to drop Styris and beleive he should be back for the England tour. Sinclair has had several chances already but can’t ‘keep it up’ under pressure (or as demonstrated recently, even without pressure).

Why the selectors go back to players that have been shown to fail in the past I dn’t know. Pick a team of who they think are the best players that year and stick with it.
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January 15, 2008 11:11am
david c

I suppose if I were to pick my best xi of who’s available now it’d be:
Bell
How
Fulton (reluctantly)
Fleming
Styris
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Adams
O’Brien
Martin

Bond shouldn’t be picked. I can understand why he’s done what he has but that means he shouldn’t be picked. The above can bowl England out..
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January 15, 2008 11:15am
unaha-closp

The Canadian interrogation of Erza Levant for possible wrongdoing in publishing the mo-toons has been posted on you-tube. The investigator concludes the interrogation by politely telling Mr Levant “You have the right to your opinion.” – guess that bodes well for Mr Levant.
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January 15, 2008 11:56am
Craig Ranapia

Anyone been reading anything interesting this holiday season? After reading Ghostie’s weird obsession with John Key, I’m tempted to dust off my copy of Richard Hofstadter’ ‘The Paranoid Style in American Politics’.

As for this weird outburst:

Sharkey Key , can have all the holidays he likes,( and he does believe me), but why keep it a secret that he doesnt prefer to spend his free time in NZ

Pretty sad considering that, by international standards, Kiwis are pretty keen on overseas travel, and according to the Tourism Ministry’s own forecasts that number will continue to increase (though at a slower rate than the last decade or so). [Source: http://www.tourismresearch.govt.nz/Analysis/Forecasts+and+Trends/2007+-+2013+Forecasts+Summary/Summary+Report.htm ] Any why shouldn’t they be?

Seriously, Ghostie, the only way in which you’re balanced is that you’re carrying a chip on both your shoulders.
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January 15, 2008 12:03pm
Craig Ranapia

Anyone been reading anything interesting this holiday season? After reading Ghostie’s weird obsession with John Key, I’m tempted to dust off my copy of Richard Hofstadter’ ‘The Paranoid Style in American Politics’.

As for this weird outburst:

Sharkey Key , can have all the holidays he likes,( and he does believe me), but why keep it a secret that he doesnt prefer to spend his free time in NZ

Pretty sad considering that, by international standards, Kiwis are pretty keen on overseas travel, and according to the Tourism Ministry’s own forecasts that number will continue to increase (though at a slower rate than the last decade or so). [Source: http://www.tourismresearch.govt.nz/Analysis/Forecasts+and+Trends/2007+-+2013+Forecasts+Summary/Summary+Report.htm ] Any why shouldn’t they be?

Seriously, Ghostie, the only way in which you’re balanced is that you’re carrying a chip on both your shoulders.
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January 15, 2008 12:03pm
calendar girl

GWW (10.15am):

If you want to trifle with the death of Sir Edmund Hillary for purely political purposes, at least have the decency to spell his surname correctly.
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January 15, 2008 12:05pm
Nick C

Also we shouldnt forget that we have the ODI’s before the test series. The only thing that really matters to me is how we perform in the tests, however the 5 ODI’s could serve as a good way to gauge the form of some key players. Here would be my ODI side:

How
McCullum
Fulton
Taylor
Sinclair
Styris
Oram
Vettori
Mills
Patel (or mason, depending on the pitch)
Martin

I believe Taylor deserves another go, and agree with David that Mills is more of a 1 day bowler then a test bowler. Adams I think isnt really a possibility as he has decleared that he has no loyalty to NZ cricket and would accept a contract to the rebel league (not that he will get one). Another interesting trivia is that VETTORI HAS WON 9 TOSSES IN A ROW! They should call him Daniel Vettoss.
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January 15, 2008 12:21pm
pdm

Some points on your first X!

1. Agreed re How – he and Bell look streets ahead of anyone else.
2. Re Sinclair – he has a test average over 40 with the bulk of his runs scorec when batting at 3. He has had no continuity of selection when compared to Marshall, Styrus, Fulton, Cumming and others they have tried. As I recall he was dropped after scoring over 70 against (I think Australia) last year.
3. I would like to see Mason ahead of Mills, O’Brien and Gillespie – he does more with the ball than any of them.
4. Forget Adams – a proven failure at international level.

Test team to play England:

How
Bell
Sinclair
Fleming
Styrus or Taylor
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Mason
Patel/Gillespie – again depending on pitch
Martin

Those players should make up the squad subject to injury. Unfortunately I don’t think we will see Bond play another test – a shame really as he really had something.
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January 15, 2008 1:19pm
pdm

On a different not – Whale Oil are you aware that your website is not allowing Internet Exporer to open your website. Microsoft say the problem is at your end.
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January 15, 2008 1:22pm
pdm

oops – scored not scorec in first post re Sinclair.
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January 15, 2008 1:23pm
freethinker

Interesting article on the BBC website that has application in NZ on bank charges for unauthorised overdrafts – http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7178766.stm
We should be looking at the principle that recovering more than costs is tantamount to a fine, often for just forgetting – so a10% surcharge on rates or utilities bill would appear to be in the same arena. An alternative would be a level playing field, so failure to get your resource consent on time = 10% penalty and so on. Of course government could help in the fairness stakes by applying the principle to IRD late payments and interest, after all if 28 days or whatever is sufficient for Joe public to do your bidding why is a Govt dept/local authority/Utilies supplier treated so differently. There is even an argument for such to be treated less generously given the resources at their disposal against Joe Public, or again perhaps the more humane application of discretion would produce a greater beneficial effect on human relations.
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January 15, 2008 1:30pm
Nick C

“2. Re Sinclair – he has a test average over 40 with the bulk of his runs scorec when batting at 3.”

True, but Taylor, Fleming and Fulton have also scored the bulk of their runs at 3 so you have to make a choice.

“3. I would like to see Mason ahead of Mills, O’Brien and Gillespie”

Interesting. Its true he swings the ball well. Mills wouldnt be in my test side as he doesnt take enough wickets. But I would still put O’Brien ahead of Mason in the test side. I watched him bowl at the Basin on Saturday and he was really troubling the Batsmen when he got the line right.

Bell is not really in contention for the one day side. Another option possibly worth trying is to only pick two fast bowlers (plus Oram) and Vettori, replacing the third fast bowler with Styris who would be our 5th bowling option. Although it may limit our bowling options it would add depth to the batting line up. Something we need at the moment as we seem incapable of putting togeather a big partnership.
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January 15, 2008 2:01pm
PaulL

Should we have demerit points for blatant off-topic trolling – by GWW in particular. Obviously not on this thread, given that it is a discussion thread. DPF, in introducing the discussion threads, did say that he would tighten up on the off-topic crap in the other threads, and push people towards the daily discussion thread. I’d like to see that enforced.
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January 15, 2008 2:06pm
pdm

Nick C

I was only talking about the test side and you are right re Fleming at 3 – I think he and Sinclairs records there are pretty similar. I doubt Taylor has batted 3 in a test.

Sinclairs ability to make big scores is undoubted I am sure all he needs is some certainty of selection like some of the lesser lights who have received it.

Agreed re Mills to me he is just `a trundler with some outswing’. Hopefully we have some young guys coming through – we just need to keep them away from the Academy to stop them breaking down.
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January 15, 2008 2:08pm
Bodycount

I would be interested in hearing any comments on this:

Dilemma for Republican candidates in the US Presidential election.

A recent Wall Street Journal poll found 60% of Republican voters think free trade is bad for America.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7048568.stm

Thanks,
Bodycount
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January 15, 2008 2:10pm
PaulL

Bodycount: it has always been the way in pretty much all democratic countries. The general population tend to believe that free trade is bad – that somehow it is a zero sum game and that they will end up worse off. All reputable economists believe that free trade makes both sides better off.

Of course, there is also the ongoing bugbear of democracy – something with diffuse benefits and targeted downsides will be strong opposed, something with targeted benefits and diffuse downsides will generally be supported. Free trade makes everyone in the country a little better off, and a small number of people a lot worse off because their jobs turn out to not be economic. Overall the economy is better off, and usually over time those displaced are better off. However, at a point in time the vote winning behaviour is to provide some sort of protection for the impacted people, despite all experts saying that it is the wrong thing to do.

The US has not been the leader that it was in free trade for some time. The real impact of this is that the poor people in third world countries will not be able to have jobs, because the rich world (particularly US, Europe and Japan) would rather hold up wages for their populations. The downsides for the poor in Africa and Asia are much larger than the upside for the unskilled in the US and Europe, but of course the poor in Africa and Asia don’t get to vote in US and European elections. And it is much easier to support aging rock stars who fly around the world pontificating about poverty than it is to accept that sometimes the price of someone in the third world having a meaningful job is that someone in your own country needs to be displaced.
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January 15, 2008 2:35pm
ghostwhowalks

Dont you love all the self appointed blog traffic cops.
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January 15, 2008 2:45pm
PaulL

Anybody in particular in mind GWW? What did your last comment add to the discussion? (Actually, what do any of your comments add to the discussion?)
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January 15, 2008 2:50pm
Redbaiter

Anybody seen that stupid new commie site that’s some kind of offshoot from The SubStandard? They’ve got a section entitled bad people who vote National (or some such infantile tripe). Mass murderers? Totalitarians? Fraudsters? Nope- none of these. What’s the big crime these Nat supporters have been guilty of?

Political Incorrectness.

Shows you the true thinking behind this weak commie scam (PC) is to control thought and speech.

The pathetic lefties at this site attempt to name and shame people who contravene the rules they are trying to enforce. They want to intimidate others into complying.

Political correctness is a barbaric evil that needs to be strenuously resisted by anyone who values freedom of expression. I would spit on this barbaric half educated Stalinist riff raff if I thought they were worth my saliva.
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January 15, 2008 3:38pm
Rex Widerstrom

redbus asks:

When does Breakfast come back?

I don’t know about you, but mine tends to come back any time I switch on the TV in the morning and see some second rate load of drivel masquerading as a news show.
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January 15, 2008 3:41pm
big bruv

I see that Cindy Kiro is back from her holiday, the question is this….

Is there a more useless person working in our government departments?

If so they would have to be mind numbingly stupid.
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January 15, 2008 4:13pm
pdm

GWW – lsten to NewstalkZB at 5.15. John Key is being interviewed and if you are really really lucky he may tell you where he has been over the last few weeks.

Your lust will then be satiated.
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January 15, 2008 4:51pm
pdm

Oops – that should be listen
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January 15, 2008 4:54pm
vto

So nobody seems to have anything to add to my question re the japanese people who died in the ureweras before xmas (first post).

At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy nutter – would it have had anything to do with those arrested under the terrorist laws late last year? It is feasible.

All I know is that candles do not explode and spray debris through the surrounding bush. As was reported.

So shoot me down as a conspiracy nutter. (and where was the plane debris at the pentagon on 9/11?)
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January 15, 2008 5:22pm
vto

I have a genuine curiousity. Perhaps I should phone the pc plods involved.
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January 15, 2008 5:22pm
pdm

Bad luck GWW – she didn’t ask he didn’t say.

Looks like you will have to wait until his article in tomorrows NZ Herald.

What if he doesn’t say anything then.

Your lust will be all consuming.
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January 15, 2008 5:34pm
Steve

An unconfirmed source reports John Key is in Disneyland. He is studying Mickey Mouse. He wants to make sure Mickey Mouse is real and in USA, not hiding in NZ and using a ghost name …..
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January 15, 2008 5:58pm
Bodycount

PaulL: thanks for sharing your thoughts.

For most, beliefs tend to stem from life experiences. What I found interesting was many Americans – including US business owners – now say that free trade is actually making them poorer.

There is no denying that free trade creates wealth. However, the prosperity is not being shared; the effects are starting to come through –and now America seems to be experiencing a revival of protectionism.

Due to outsourcing, the employment opportunities and earnings of a large number of skilled professionals are now under threat.

If the polls continue to show that a big majority of Republican voters think that free trade is bad for the country, it will be a very brave politician who does not tailor his position accordingly.

Therefore, almost all of the candidates vying to be the Democratic Party’s Presidential nominee next year have adopted stances that flatly contradict the current President’s fondness for free trade deals.

However, thus far in the Republican campaign, trade concerns have only been coming from the long shots.

“It has always been the way in pretty much all democratic countries.”

So, do you think we will see this becoming an election issue here?
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January 15, 2008 6:18pm
PaulL

Bodycount: I don’t see it as an election issue here other than on the fringe (usual suspects – the greens and NZF). The problem is that if you are connected enough to be in parliament, you are presumably also connected enough to read a little economics. And the facts are pretty obvious. If we are prepared to do things about global warming on the basis that “the science is settled” then we sure as hell should be doing something about getting more free trade, because the science on that has definitely been settled for 40 years or so. (Note, that isn’t a comment on global warming – don’t want to go off into that debate – just suggesting that all the parties seem to say they’ll do something about it, and comparatively there is a lot more certainty that free trade is good than there is certainty that global warming is happening).

On outsourcing, I know there is a big beat up about it in the US. From my own perspective (working for a large multinational in the IT game, who has a very large presence in India) jobs are not being lost in the US. We have grown our employment base in US (albeit at a slow rate) at the same time we have doubled or tripled our presence in India. And another key point is that we pay something like 60-70% of a US salary to hire someone with the same skills in India – and our pay level in India is growing 8%+ per annum. Our employment in the US won’t drop, most of our competitors are the same. In 5 or 10 years we’ll be paying the same (or potentially more) in India than we are currently in the US. It is basically a beat up by the media that makes the middle classes jittery, but has little basis in fact.

As to whether the prosperity is being shared…well, I see a lot of Americans driving Hondas and Toyotas. If they weren’t they’d still be driving some shitty GM or Ford product. They clearly thought they were better off with the Honda or Toyota, else they wouldn’t have bought it. And there can be little doubt that the existence of the Japanese competition has driving up the quality of the American products – some of their models are starting to win quality awards against the Japanese. Sometimes it is about how you measure the benefits of free trade – all those Americans are better off by the amount their Toyota was cheaper than a Ford, and also by the amount their Toyota is better than a Ford. Many measures of benefit miss that qualitative dimension, but free trade usually also means an increase in quality.

I think we globally go through periods of worrying about free trade, I personally think that we may stagnate for a while, but I doubt that the existing agreements will go backwards to a great extent. The fatigue that has currently set in will pass, and in 5 or 10 years it will move forward again.
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January 15, 2008 8:44pm
Mr Bestertester

Shit ,you poor buggers seem to have a group of potential killers loose up there in Auckland.Using baseball bats on ladies is very extreme, fuck you lot keep these (men?????) in your city , ps the cops might catch them when they are finished with those child smacking dads , ps tv said they are dark , an action baseball bashing group, utu maybe???
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January 15, 2008 8:56pm
vto

yep besterfestering, vile. on P methinks
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January 15, 2008 9:04pm
Mr Bestertester

no vto, export dry, keep safe??
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January 15, 2008 9:10pm
Chuck Bird

I noticed on a couple of blogs that Russell Brown has published Whale Oil’s home address. I think I recall the DPF mentioned that one of Russell’s children had some sort of a health problem and suggested a collection of some sort. I forget the exact details. I wonder if this is likely to happen in future.

Some time ago there was a meeting of blogger in Auckland. By the time I got there it was mainly those from the Left. I spent an hour or two socializing over a few drinks even with Sonic. Just because two people have different political leanings that is not an excuse to basically threaten then. Would RB be happy for his contact details be put on a website?

For someone to put another bloggers family at risk because they are from the opposite end of the political spectrum is despicable. I think RB used such an adjective towards me. He was not however prepared to discuss issues – some journalist.

I hope any left wing bloggers with any integrity will condemn Russell Brown for the hypocrite he is.
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January 15, 2008 10:53pm
Ryan Sproull

Chuck,

Yeah, those drinks were fun. We should do them again.
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January 15, 2008 11:02pm
Chicken Little

Which Blogs Chuck?
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January 15, 2008 11:31pm
Chuck Bird

Chicken Little, it was mentived on NZ Conservative and Whale Oil and of course Russell Brown on blog posted by himself.

Ryan, It would be great if there was another bloggers night in Auckland. Most bloggers regardless of chronological age are mature of enough to share a drink despite differences in political view points.

However, people such as RB do such things as publish another’s address it makes that more difficult. Many of us who use our real names can be traced through voter’s poll and the phone book. However, that does not excuse publishing other blogger’s details. I hope when RB returns he is prepared to attempt to justify his actions.

I would be interested in your view on this as well as other bloggers from the left. I know i would condemn this sort of behaviour from who ever.

I would hope that DPF and other blog owners would consider banning RB and anyone else who publishes contact details of other bloggers.
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January 16, 2008 9:40am
baxter

VTO…I have no idea what the Japs were doing in the Ureweras. Could they possibly be collectors in the market for priceless war medals.
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January 16, 2008 2:05pm

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