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December 7, 2007 11:23am by David Farrar

General Debate 7 December 2007

So another two years for Graham Henry …

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ghostwhowalks

Note for Moderators and DPF.
Could off thread comments be MOVED from topic threads to the previous days general debate.
Seems to be a gentler way to keep threads on topic and flame wars to yesterdays news
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December 7, 2007 11:33am
Wycroft

A bit bleary eyed this morning DPF? The image RB paints of you disappearing into the night clutching a Robert Muldoon Toby Jug is most amusing. I hope you took Sir Robert bar hopping.
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December 7, 2007 11:35am
Inventory2

Are you taking the piss ghost? You would be amongst the worst off-topic offenders!
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December 7, 2007 11:38am
Governance Notes

I understand Henry got in again by promising never to play France again.
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December 7, 2007 11:39am
Yeti

Graham Henry, as a pom I’m stoked! You’ll never win it now. Ha ha….!
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December 7, 2007 11:40am
vto

topicy topicy …

how revealing was that nasty wee man Cullen’s nasty “rich prick” comment to Key?

It simply proves that Cullen is a rich-hater.

He could have called him “white prick” or “exclusive brethren prick” or “black prick” or “bitch prick” or “young prick” or “old prick” or “no prick” …..

“Facsists in Helengrad,
Born to be bad,
Encourage the dope and put up the fags.

Get the bosses, and the bankers,
And especially all those fucking rich wankers.

…”

They are a nasty bunch with bad bones.
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December 7, 2007 11:41am
Nick C

NOOOO! WTF? Henry f*cked up the super 14 and the rugby world cup and he gets another chance? If I were John Michael I would be pretty pissed off right not.
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December 7, 2007 11:44am
Tauhei Notts

I am hoping that someone much more knowledgable than me will tell us who Robbie Deans pissed off in such a manner that Deans got rubbished.
I thought Deans was a certainty.
Deans knows as much about winning as Mallard knows about Thuggery.
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December 7, 2007 11:50am
Tina

Henry must be extraordinarily well “connected” .

Alternatively, the Board was completely involved in the “Henry method “of WC preparation and this is the old Kiwi weakness raising its ugly head……
They don’t mind being wrong just as long as they are not seen to be wrong.

This is their way of saying” we were just unlucky”.
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December 7, 2007 11:50am
ghostwhowalks

Whats the problem with henrys rotation policy
National used it throughout the 90s
English was Education then finally finance, Creech went from the wing to the scrum

BTW at least my slightly off topic threads are politics related
As above its easily done
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December 7, 2007 11:53am
BeShakey

Yes vto, here here. Down with the haters, particularly (to quote you) the ‘fags’.

Cullen was understandably frustrated about Key’s bringing his wife into the debate. National has complained pretty loudly when Labour has done this. The past couple of weeks are actually making me think Labour could get more seats than National at the election. I haven’t thought that for quite a while.
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December 7, 2007 11:54am
Craig Ranapia

I wonder if rugby pundits are as bad at saying ‘I got it wrong’ as their political brethren. 🙂

And as for GhostWhoLies – the compulsive thread-jacker – who’d have thunk s/he would have a sense of irony?
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December 7, 2007 11:54am
pdm

Henry reappointed – unbelievable.

The worst performing NZ world cup coach EVER!!!!
A failure with the Lions in Australia.

A man who obviously is not able to cope the pressure at the top of world rugby and they give him another go.

What hope is there.
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December 7, 2007 11:55am
Seamonkey Madness

I think this comment from Deans is fairly showing that Henry is moe than close to the coach selection panel:

Asked whether he’d try again when Henry’s two year term lapsed, Deans said: “If it was contestable, but I think the likelihood of that is pretty remote.”

Youch.
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December 7, 2007 11:57am
unaha-closp

Got a question EFB related: if the Dominion Post were not covering the DHB how could such problems be publicised in an election year?
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December 7, 2007 11:59am
pdm

Tauhei N – Deans is offside with Tew – they don’t talk.

Tina – 6 members of the same Board who reappointed him okayed his rotation policy and gave hime and the players everything that was asked for.

Bellshakey – Cullens wife asks for all she gets by writing politically biased letters to newspapers under her maiden name – without disclosure.
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December 7, 2007 12:00pm
Buggerlugs

Graham Henry
Ruth Aitken
John Bracewell
No silverware

’nuff said.
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December 7, 2007 12:02pm
pdm

oops – hime should read him.
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December 7, 2007 12:02pm
Buggerlugs

Note for Moderators and DPF.
Could off thread comments be MOVED from topic threads to the previous days general debate.
Seems to be a gentler way to keep threads on topic and flame wars to yesterdays news

i) It’s not your blog
ii) You’re asking for a flame war by posting this shit
iii) fuck off
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December 7, 2007 12:03pm
Bevan

Whats the problem with henrys rotation policy
National used it throughout the 90s

Are you trying to say Labour has never had a reshuffle?
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December 7, 2007 12:07pm
vto

I call on Michael Cullen to resign and get a real job. Nasty piece of pu that he is
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December 7, 2007 12:07pm
BeShakey

Bellshakey – Cullens wife asks for all she gets by writing politically biased letters to newspapers under her maiden name – without disclosure.

So anyone with any ties to the Labour party should be required to disclose that? I’d be interested in knowing how her views are politically biased given they are her views. And of course, to the best of my knowledge she uses her maiden name because it is her name. You may not be aware but woman aren’t required to change it when they get married. Makes it hard to know who owns them though doesn’t it?
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December 7, 2007 12:08pm
vto

Go on Cullen. Leave us all alone and take your schoolboy wit and bad bones somewhere else.
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December 7, 2007 12:09pm
vto

pissd off cullen
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December 7, 2007 12:11pm
david

The change to a 2 year contract has yet to receive the analysis I believe it deserves.

Of course there is a danger that the “vacancy” will come up when all other potential contenders are mid-contract and thus not available. We shall see what we shall see about the application of the law of unintended consequences.
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December 7, 2007 12:11pm
Craig Ranapia

Cullen was understandably frustrated about Key’s bringing his wife into the debate.

Really? More like Cullen gets very frustrated when the rest of us won’t just accept he knows everything and just STFU.

Sorry, but was the passing reference to his wife factually inaccurate? A slur on her personal qualities as a wife or mother? An insinuation that she was exploiting her relationship with a Minister of the Crown for personal or professional advantage – an allegation Cullen had no problem with Mallard making against Mary English and Rosemary Bradford?

No?

Hey, Cullen could have been a grown-up (and the Leader of the House) and calmly raised a point of order if he was genuinely offended. Instead, he went off like a potty-mouth toddler, and (ironically enough) threatened ‘retaliation’ when it turned out a (very mild) dose of his own medicine wasn’t to his taste.

Perhaps he can chalk it all up to karmic debt repayment, ask Trev if there’s a spare chair at his anger management group and calm down. His own conduct, and stronger leadership, would do more to lower the temperate in the House than making vague threats of utu.

And a sidebar: Let’s do a flip-test here. During a heated debate, Gerry Brownlee takes exception to something Helen Clark says, and calls her a ‘commie cunt’ and a ‘twatrag, twatrag, twatrag’. Don’t think any sane person would even try to find any mitigating factor in an outburst like that. What’s the difference?
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December 7, 2007 12:11pm
David Farrar

I do not have the ability to move a comment from one thread to another sorry.
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December 7, 2007 12:12pm
cubit9f

Wasn’t Cullen’s missus participating in political activities in the Hawkes Bay?
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December 7, 2007 12:15pm
david

Be wobbly, If she jumps between names according to the circumstances thenit does make her vulnerable. But in reality the exchange was about who was backing candidates nominations in the electorate. For 2005 Cullen’s wife nominated one while Cullen himself has nominated someone who is challenging the incumbent.

If that is not a circumstance where some political mileage is available I don’t know what is. The left have been frothing at the mouth over much less significant things recently!
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December 7, 2007 12:16pm
Tina

“6 members of the same Board who reappointed him okayed his rotation policy and gave hime and the players everything that was asked for.”

Errr…yeah pdm …that’s what I said…your additional point is…?
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December 7, 2007 12:22pm
vto

didn’t cullen, in his inaugural parliamentary speech, say something like…

“when I was at private school as a kid I took great delight in ripping off the rich farmers of hawkes bay and canterbury and I look forward to doing the same from my new position here”

?

I am quite sure he did.

A compilation of his comments along these lines would reveal ….
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December 7, 2007 12:24pm
BeShakey

I would say it deserves as much mileage as Bill English’s racist, homophobic son. How much mileage did Labour make of that?
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December 7, 2007 12:24pm
kehua

Sincere commiserations and sympathy to Mark Goshe on the sad loss of another family member.
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December 7, 2007 12:41pm
pdm

Apologies Tina – it was your use of alternatively after saying that he must be well connected that threw me off track.

We are both saying the same thing.
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December 7, 2007 12:42pm
bwakile

Just for the record vto

“I’m proud of the fact that my secondary education was not paid for by the taxpayers of New Zealand but by the farmers of Canterbury and Hawkes Bay [Cullen was given a scholarship place at Christ’s College]. I ripped them off for five years then, and I shall get stuck into them again in the next few years.”

The chip goes a long way back, the ungrateful little tosser.
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December 7, 2007 12:46pm
pdm

Bellshakey

If you are the spouse or partner of a person in a high profile position like Cullen is then I believe you should disclose your relationship when you write politically biased letters to newspapers.

Someone will know – will this be a equirement of the EFB? If it is it will be its one good point.

BTW as far as I am concerned the political beliefs are irrelevant it is a courtesy the public deserve.
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December 7, 2007 12:49pm
vto

perfect. Thanks Bwakile.

Cullen, you are small-minded, a rich-hater and oh so very nasty nasty nasty
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December 7, 2007 12:51pm
David Farrar

People miss the key point of the convention – spouses are left out of political debate, so long as they themselves are not in politics.

If Peter Davis writes a highly political letter to a newspaper, then he has made himself a legitimate issue in terms of that letter.

If an MP’s wife, who herself was an MP, is an active member of a political party and involved in selection battles, then that is a legitimate issue.

Being a MP’s spouse is not a get out of jail card. It is a “leave me alone” card if I am not involved in politics.
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December 7, 2007 12:53pm
krazykiwi

Cullen… are you reading this? What a sad, sad bastard you are mate. NZ will be vastly better off once you are out of our lives
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December 7, 2007 12:56pm
Rex Widerstrom

Whoop whoop! I’d urge everyone to scroll back up to the top of this thread and click the links Inventory 2 has provided.

I spent half my working life in media and have seen all sorts of suppression tactics used – from a simple “thou shalt not broadcast that or else” in the Muldoon years to a concerted campaign to economically damage a media outlet broadcasting embarrassing disclosures in the 90s.

The good, unbised journos (yes, there are some) are already outnumbered by the press secretaries, communications managers and other lackeys of politicians, government departments and business.

This government has honed to a fine art the tradition started by Muldoon of favouring those journos who agree with you and isolating those who don’t (including those who simply try to be fair), making it impossible for them to do their jobs.

And from the other direction they’re facing proprietors who won’t invest in investigative journalism because they can get just as good a return by sending Michael Laws to an island to catch hives with a model, filming the result, and calling it reality.

Not quite as bad as an EFB but right up there with it as a threat to open and accountable government.

So please, scroll back, click, and return. Or perhaps DPF might think it worthy of a stand-alone post?
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December 7, 2007 1:01pm
roger nome

bwakile, VTO –

He says things like that to rark idiots like you two up. Too easy.
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December 7, 2007 1:03pm
bwakile

He says things like that to rark idiots like you two up. Yeah right
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December 7, 2007 1:05pm
vto

i dont think so mrs nome

anyone else have any Cullen-isms that show his and this govt’s true nature?
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December 7, 2007 1:06pm
roger nome

“This government has honed to a fine art the tradition started by Muldoon of favouring those journos who agree with you and isolating those who don’t (including those who simply try to be fair), making it impossible for them to do their jobs.”

Hey Rex – I tutored a media and politics paper not long ago. Suffice to say this practice has been noted in many countries. And I agree, it’s totally undemocratic, but how to mitigate it?
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December 7, 2007 1:06pm
gd

Craig Sadly whilst you and I and the other grown up people understand your point regarding reversing the situation the Socialists and their supporters cant get it. Like all morons they can dish it out but they cant take it.
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December 7, 2007 1:08pm
BeShakey

DPF – I don’t completely disagree with your description of the convention. My attempt (admittedly just off the top of my head) is that the family (so including, for instance, Bill English’s son) of MPs shouldn’t be brought into debate if they are acting independently of the MP, and the matter wouldn’t have been brough into the debate if it wasn’t for that relationship.

To apply that, Bill English’s son was presumably acting independently of English, and if it wasn’t for the relationship no one would have mentioned it. Ditto Anne Collins (and hell spouses disagreeing about a relatively minor political point shouldn’t be a point of attack for the opposition). And ditto Peter Davis. Of course, Davis was politically naive to send the letter, and you can see why it could easily be used by the opposition.

I’d also think it would be a good idea to err on the side of not mentioning family, particularly if you are a member of a party that had shown particular sensitivity on the issue (which I think was justified).

[DPF: Bill’s son is out of bounds because he is 14!!! If an MP’s adult spouse said what he said, that would be different]
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December 7, 2007 1:10pm
bwakile

Hey Rex – I tutored a media and politics paper not long ago.

Do they teach that at kindergarten these days?
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December 7, 2007 1:11pm
vto

hey roger nome – “how to mitigate it?”

How about legislating the questioning of politicians so that they have no control over who can ask them questions? Or something along those lines.
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December 7, 2007 1:12pm
BeShakey

Craig:

“An insinuation that she was exploiting her relationship with a Minister of the Crown for personal or professional advantage – an allegation Cullen had no problem with Mallard making against Mary English and Rosemary Bradford?”

See above, the fact that they were partners of the MPs shouldn’t exclude them from criticism. I don’t recall the details, but would expect that any other person exploiting a relationship with a Minister for gain would be subject to scrutiny.

“…calls her a ‘commie cunt’ and a ‘twatrag, twatrag, twatrag’”

For a start, I don’t think many people would think the actual comments made by Cullen were offensive. Putting that aside, I’m sure calling Gerry an obese paedophile could be justification for an outburst. The point would be that, although not endorsing what was said, the debate is about the acceptability of the actions that provoked the response. If someone made that comment about Gerry (a politician I dislike) and he punched them, I would be justified in saying that his actions were wrong, but that wouldn’t also stop me from being able to say the person making the accusations was also wrong.
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December 7, 2007 1:17pm
Rex Widerstrom

It’s a tricky one I agree roger. But time was when the Gallery was composed of seasoned old sods who’d done rounds where similar tactics were tried – the police round being one that springs immediately to mind.

So they were at least awake to the tricks, and had (unless they’d succumbed to the dubious charms of free access to the (unlicensed) police bar) been forced to work out ways around it. Things like finding disgruntled and ambitious juniors and carefully cultivating them as sources; setting one source against another to wheedle info out of both, and so on.

And they had some principles and, dare I say it, testicles (even – in fact most particularly – the women). So if one of their number was picked on or excluded the very least they would do is report it. If it was particularly bad they might even contrive to do as much as they could to blackball the offending pollie, though the media owners and even sometimes the editors would never permit a complete news blackout just in case an opposing publication broke ranks and thus got a scoop.

So in answer to your question as to how to mitigate it: first, stop putting people into the Gallery fresh out of journalism school, or almost that green. To get some perspective on a government that’s been in office for nine years you need to have been reporting for at least 12; and expose the favouritism that goes on amongst pollies and certain of your peers.

And we, as readers / viewers / listeners need to become much more discerning consumers of media. This can be (partly) achieved by engaging consumers with producers in a public forum but to be effective it’d need to be linked to a robust media column / program in traditional media.

Russell Brown does an excellent job but his show is too broad-ranging and a little too highbrow to work the way I envisage. I’m thinking more “Crossfire” or at the very least “Media Watch” (ABC Australia) but with some element of debate. It needs to be the media critique equivalent of “Celebrity Treasure Island” (*shudder*) so as to engage the greatest number of people and slowly teach them to become educated consumers of media.

Perhaps we could pitch something? Call it “Roger and Me”? 😉
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December 7, 2007 1:20pm
Andrew W

The media are getting sick of attempts by government to undemocratically influence them, and are now biting back, remember how much of the media turned on Muldoon when they realised he was going down? and Helen’s not as scary as Muldoon.
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December 7, 2007 1:22pm
ghostwhowalks

Rex , do you think the journos dont take nationals press releases and make ONE phone call before putting the story under their own byline.

Its quite funny when you can go to scoop and read the unvarnished press realease- which are all ways written to copy and paste anyway.

Its a bit harder to rewrite Government Pr since they dont really have any thing sexy to say.
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December 7, 2007 1:22pm
pdm

DPF said `being an MPs spouse…………………..etc’.

Well said and exactly the point I was trying to make about Anne Collins.
When she writes letters to editors under that name most people do not know she is Cullens wife.

I say she should disclose that!!!
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December 7, 2007 1:26pm
Rex Widerstrom

Uh yes GWW, since leaving journalism I’ve seen the stuff I’ve written – even down to the analysis – as a paid political flak republished verbatim. The only time it even slightly surprises me is when some lazy shit puts their own byline on it without even the phone call.

But do you think they only do it with National’s? Government press releases may not be as “sexy” but some journalists get all damp and breathless about being rung up by the high and mighty for a friendly chat. I well remember one then-TV, went-on-to-radio journo saying “we” were doing this and that, meaning Labour – a result of a very cosy relationship cleverly developed by the PM with this particular individual.

Not blaming the PM in the least – I encourage all my political clients to try the same tactics. But a part of me breathes a sigh of relief when when it doesn’t work. It’s just the sighs are becoming less and less frequent.

But getting back to Inventory 2’s point, it’s going OTT to create a goverment “cultural” bureau designed to stick its snout into our supposedly free media.
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December 7, 2007 1:30pm
roger nome

“How about legislating the questioning of politicians so that they have no control over who can ask them questions? Or something along those lines.”

You mean, for instance, regular press conferences (say once a week) where as many media outlets as is practical are represented? Still doesn’t stop pollies giving fob-off answers to “little creeps”, and juicy bones to pet jurnos.
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December 7, 2007 1:30pm
Rex Widerstrom

Sheet this is scary… I’m nodding in agreement with every single word roger’s saying today 😉
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December 7, 2007 1:33pm
Mike S

Henry is a loser, and when it comes to the crunch, so are the ABs . Overpaid pretty show-ponies, who can’t perform.
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December 7, 2007 1:37pm
Craig Ranapia

BeShakey wrote:

For a start, I don’t think many people would think the actual comments made by Cullen were offensive. Putting that aside, I’m sure calling Gerry an obese paedophile could be justification for an outburst.

OK… I kinda get your rather convoluted point, but I can think of a few people who’d disagree strongly enough to give Cullen a good Mallard in the parking lot of he carried on like that down the local.

And I don’t really fall for the counterargument either – if Helen Clark called Brownlee a fat kiddie-fucker, that is clearly unparliamentary and if the Speaker is too deaf and dozy to immediately rule it out of order then it should be addressed through a point of order. Not getting into a XXX-rated throwdown across the chamber. And if he did, I sure hope he would no longer be in a senior leadership role in the Parliamentary National Party.

Sorry, but surely there’s got to be some lines drawn without having the Speaker slap you over the wrist first – and screeching vulgar obscenities across the House should be one of them, no matter how stressed out or upset you are?

I’d also make one final point – I don’t think we’re talking about an isolated outburst, but just the latest example of a pattern of behaviour that (IMO) is not only damaging to the reputation of Parliament. I don’t think its OTT, to say that this is the kind of crap that is makes folks disengaged from, and cynical about politicians and the political process.

Recently, I read a fascinating book about the rivalry between Disraeli and Gladstone. They didn’t like each other on any level – and it showed in the House. But at least their verbal jousting contained the sharpness inside a layer of adult intellect, wit and civility.
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December 7, 2007 1:46pm
Inventory2

Rex – thanks for stimulating a bit of discussion about my post. Like you, I hope that DPF might devote a stand-alone thread to it, as the implications of what the government is proposing are frightening.

Sure, both the government and opposition are adept at getting their “spin” on given issues. However for the government to create a ministry “to more effectively serve the interests of public broadcasting and New Zealand’s transition to digital broadcasting” leaves the door open for the government to cement the advantage it has voted itself in terms of taxpayer-funded advertising with a far more compliant state-funded media.

The other aspect I blogged about also troubled me – a leak of confidential information from either the Environment Ministry or the SSC (or from within the Beehive) to TVNZ, to enable them to do a puff-piece for Mallard – and who’s the Minister of Broadcasting now? Mallard! ‘Nuff said?
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December 7, 2007 1:51pm
david

Time was when the “Minister’s Press Secretary” was a merry band of 1 or 2. Now we have whole rugby teams of communicators clogging up the corridors of power. my point?

Firstly, it is a hell of a lot easier to arrange a deniable leak when the culprit can hide in the crowd. (a bit like swimming in shark infested waters – never do it alone, the bigger the crowd the safer you are purely from a statistical standpoint.)

But also it is frightening that what were reactive spokespersons and drafters of media releases are now strategy teams giving the whole media relations thing a total proactive life of its own. I don’t see the media applying the same level of intellectual or financial horsepower to their side of the exchange so the media have (by default) abrogated their ability to be analytical or informed commentators.
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December 7, 2007 2:08pm
Tina

And of course “the fix is in”.

Those cunning Aussies want Robbie as next Wallaby coach….

And they made it so.
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December 7, 2007 2:08pm
david

Tina, the All Blacks WRC coach will be appointed in 2009, who do you think will be available?

I suspect you could choose between me and D4J although I can’t speak for him!
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December 7, 2007 2:11pm
Rex Widerstrom

Craig:

a pattern of behaviour that (IMO) is not only damaging to the reputation of Parliament… makes folks disengaged from, and cynical about politicians and the political process.

Not just your opinion Craig but I suspect mine and many other people’s. I know I sound curmudgeonly when I say it never used to be this bad even 10 years ago but a look at Hansard will show that it didn’t. Cullen was one whose debating style I used to admire, but lately it’s nothing but bile and hatred. And don’t try and tell me, as some tried to spin on another thread, that he’s doing it to get a rise… that’s what he used to do, with some wit and considerable style. But not any more.

Recently, I read a fascinating book about the rivalry between Disraeli and Gladstone…

Ahh, now there’s Parliamentary debate as it should and could be – topical, witty without resorting to abuse, and meaningful in the sense that sufficiently powerful oratory could actually change people’s minds rather than going right over their heads till they bob up to say “seven in favour”.

I’ve read a book or two on Disraeli (it was actually Winston who put me onto him – he’s an admirer of the former’s style of repartee) but not one specifically on the rivalry between the two. Title, author, ISBN please 🙂

Inventory 2: Thank you for the heads up. Typically, the media seem not to see the implications of this as I can barely find it reported anywhere. And it’s actually got me thinking about some TV show ideas… watch this space.
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December 7, 2007 2:15pm
Tina

Henry will sweep all before him, as per usual ABs 2 years out, then he gets reappointed AB WC coach…how can they not? His win/loss will be superb.

The Aussies then have a rather motivated Robbie vs Henry in the WC final…….and the final part of their mega plan has clicked into place.

Another slow motion train wreck.
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December 7, 2007 2:25pm
Brownie

You are right Rex. Winston is an admirer of Disraeli’s style. Unfortunately he doesn’t seem to be able to duplicate it either in the House or out (i.e. his regular personal attacks to defend the current goverment – the source and supply of his baubles – or his vituperative ragings at the media).
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December 7, 2007 2:30pm
BeShakey

Craig: I don’t think we disagree as much as it may seem. I agree that Cullen’s comments were wrong (I actually meant to say they weren’t as offiensive as those in your example, not that they weren’t offensive at all), or that the issue could have been handled through a point of order. My point was that this outburst was provoked, and some of the criticism should be directed at John Key for bringing an MPs wife into the debate.

And I disagree with the idea that anyone with a tie to an MP or party should have to declare it anytime they say anything. I don’t think they should hide it but just that they shouldn’t be required to preface every comment with a disclaimer (and unlike some here that applies equally to people who are expressing views I disagree with). I suspect that the people with an issue simply disagree with her view.
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December 7, 2007 2:32pm
BeShakey

Sorry, I also meant to say that I agree with you that the conduct in the house has deteriorated (IMO mainly due to Labour, the Nats, and NZF). I have no idea what can really be done about this though.
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December 7, 2007 2:34pm
pdm

Bellshaey said – `I disagree that anyone with a tie to an MP or party should have to declare anytime they say anything.’

I agree with that.

But when they take a position on a current matter eg as Peter Davis recently did, then they should do so.

In fairness to Anne Collins I haven’t seen much from her lately but she used to regularly have letters published in the DomPost and HB Today which took a strong position on current political issues which should have had disclosure.
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December 7, 2007 2:56pm
John Ansell

Hopefully Deans will still want the All Blacks World Cup job so he only agrees to a two year term with the Wallabies.

The next two years of Tri-Nations/Bledisloe Cup head-to-heads can function as a series of All Blacks coaching trials.

The winner will get the World Cup job – assuming he’s mastered the art of getting his team to go for three points when trailing by two at the death.

Hopefully the money could be found to match what the ARU are said to be offering Deans.
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December 7, 2007 3:30pm
Lee C

I suggest electoral reform desigend to create a level playing field, after the initial setting up of a ROyal Commission.

Not the EFB, which is hardly a reform, more a legal entrenching of one kind of rorting at the expense of another, so I agree; two worngs do not make a right.

Why is it a massive can of worms to estimate how much labour time went into an activity then count it against the election spend of the party it is in support of??

Union members don’t work at their jobs for free do they? they all have a hourly rate, it’s written down on thier pay packets in black and white. If I give one hour of my work time to electioneering while in work time, then It should be accounted for. Pure and simple.

If you are suggesting that the unions should be exempt from public scrutiny, while the activities of ‘big business’ should not. It would be as easy to argue the original EFB should not have happened on the basis it is too big a ‘can of worms’.

I’m self-employed for example. Every time I blog, I am robbing myself of my own labour time. I have to accept that. So if I were employed by a union, to write press releases, for example, and spent x hours a week blogging in favour of the Labour Party, how is this anything other than a rort of my employers’ cash and time,, my union members subs and trust, and of the electoral processes need for transparency?

The ‘free’ time given is not ‘free’ at all. It’s just a political version of tax evasion.
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December 7, 2007 3:34pm
Craig Ranapia

Your wish is my command Mr. Widerstrom.

The Lion and the Unicorn Gladstone vs. Disraeli by Richard Aldous. The edition I had, UK paperback, was published by Pimlico ISBN-13: 978-1844133123 (Don’t ask why I take notes of such things…)

BeShakey:

Fair enough, the nice thing about kicking around your differences around in a reasonable manner is you can find out when they’re not that wide, or don’t really exist at all. 🙂
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December 7, 2007 3:48pm
hinamanu

The reasons Henry got his job back are manifold.

His track record is impeccable.

His AB support is universal.

His public popularity is unquestioned. (no, I haven’t forgotten Buck. He questioned the Rugby Union and those faceless nobodies don’t tolerate that)

Which brings me to why Graham Henry was re-selected.

How is it going to look if the Union ditches everyone for a loss.
No ones going to want the job. They wouldn’t have any future security, the union would become dis trusted and a highly suspect organisation and completely lose face. In the end heads would roll.

The union had to give them-selves a reality check and come back down to earth. They can play with players lives, there are thousands of athletes to pick and choose from, but at the end of the day the spotlight odf the press turns on the suits. They hate being option free, but I would suggest, esp after the tardy way they treated Buck, they just could not afford the same kind of controversy.

There fore I applaud Henry’s reinstatement. I hope he takes the AB’s through another WC. To be fair to the union, he stands on his own merits, but unfortunately, politics is a reality here.

I would like to see ghim on the union himself one day. he would make the decision making process a lot more respected.
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December 7, 2007 3:50pm
barry

NZRFU = fuckwits
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December 7, 2007 3:57pm
hinamanu

Hmm,

I see my post wasn’t all wrong
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December 7, 2007 4:00pm
Tina

Nice thought John, but the Aussies led by O’Neil will never fall for an NZ “coach off” at their expense.

Robbie will be tied up tight if he gets the gig.

They’ll want it so he either stays with the Wallabies or watches the WC on TV.
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December 7, 2007 4:13pm
baxter

I think Cullen despises himself for being rich, and that causes him to be so vindictively bitter. With expenses he has been drawing the best part of half a million a year for the past eight years plus six under Lange, and he has an ingrained guilt complex which he can’t rationalise over it.
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December 7, 2007 5:00pm
bwakile

baxter
He could also be like that other rich prick, Bill Gates, and give it away.
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December 7, 2007 6:01pm
bwakile

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10481018
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December 7, 2007 6:02pm
Mike S

Disraeli was a genius. Gladstone less so, but both were brilliant politicians.

but looking back through the records of Westminster is not really a good guide to now – different world.
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December 7, 2007 6:48pm
hinamanu

i) It’s not your blog
ii) You’re asking for a flame war by posting this shit
iii) fuck off

Hear, Hear.
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December 7, 2007 7:46pm
PaulL

I’m hoping that the NZ situation will go the Australian way. Tired govt getting increasingly desperate, and passing laws that they should have the political nous to stay well clear of. New govt comes in, the old guard in the old party basically all resign. So I expect to see National come in, and most of the Labour front bench resign because they cannot face being in opposition, and knowing that they’ll probably be retired before they get back into power anyway.

Tone of parliament raises amazingly – the new govt busy learning the ropes and all excited at the potential, the new, young leaders of the opposition all excited because somebody suddenly cares what they think. Also, the new opposition will be busy distancing themselves from the past, so will be going out of their way to not be obstructive and doctrinaire.

It can happen, the question is whether it will.
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December 7, 2007 7:59pm
heathcote

Cullen must be using the Labour Party handbook on insults – I’m sure it is well thumbed through by now. I recall Helen Clark using the same invective, I think directed at Bill English some years ago, after (reasonable) comments about Peter Davis. But the joke of it was she referred to (English) as a ‘scumball’ and ‘sleazebag’. She couldn’t even get that right.

Cullen is a vicious and unremitting creep, who really nailed his colours to the mast this week. His hatred of economic freedom and prosperity makes him unfit to be finance minister. The cost to the country during his tenure has been enormous. Go
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December 7, 2007 8:26pm
Craig Ranapia

but looking back through the records of Westminster is not really a good guide to now – different world.

Well, Mike S., I’d like to think that no matter how much the world changes there’s always going to be a place for genuine wit, intelligence, basic maturity and the idea that politics doesn’t have to be a race to the lowest sewer you can find.

As I said, Disraeli and Gladstone hated each other with a vehemence and longevity that wasn’t entirely sane; and they certainly weren’t over-scrupulous about playing very hardball politics to achieve their agendas. But I’m still looking for an occasion where they were reduced to screeching obscenities across the floor of the Commons like meth-addled chimps.
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December 7, 2007 8:39pm
Buggerlugs

Or an occasion where they were unable to read something aloud without phonetically spelling out half the words and slowly reading the others like a six year old reading a three line poem…like Sue Bradford/Dave Hereora/Lesley Soper every time she asks a QOA…
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December 7, 2007 10:05pm
hinamanu

like Sue Bradford/

after she has told the camera man to keep the camera at neck level

she has a real paranoid fixation about her chest

Unlike Sandra Lee who was never seen on tv again after exposing her cleavage in an interview. They do say Jim Anderton is an over bearing bully. But he’s for the turf as well.
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December 7, 2007 10:15pm
Tina

Nothing to see here chaps….

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22888557-2722,00.html
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December 8, 2007 11:09am
Craig Ranapia

Tina:

Sorry, who gives a shit? Don’t get me wrong – long life and happiness to both Deans and Henry, but I can’t really pretend to care about who coaches the All Backs or the Wallabies.
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December 8, 2007 3:34pm

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