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December 18, 2007 1:02pm by David Farrar

General Debate 18 December 2007

And on the 7th day of Christmas my true love gave to me an Electoral Finance Act.

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Ross Nixon

The bitch!
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December 18, 2007 1:04pm
Bevan

Um DPF, are you saying that Helen Clark is your true love?
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December 18, 2007 1:08pm
Lee C

Is the EFB the thin end of the wedge in the Labour party? I think so.
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December 18, 2007 1:09pm
Tane

The bitch!

And on the eighth day of Christmas Ross Nixon gave to me some good old fashioned Kiwiblog misogyny.
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December 18, 2007 1:10pm
Hoolian

Its so interesting though if you look at the behavour of long-term governments. National during the 1990s got a tad dillusional too. They all go senile in the end – like a political King Lear
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December 18, 2007 1:11pm
Hoolian

Tane – just a not of interest. Does anyone even visit the Standard? It always seems very empty. And never has robust debate or even vaguely insightful comments (don’t get me started on the posts), so how successful do you think it is? It seems a total flop to me.

Regardless, it must suck having DPF’s blog having continued high levels of traffic. A bit green with envy, are you?
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December 18, 2007 1:15pm
Bevan

The bitch!

And on the eighth day of Christmas Ross Nixon gave to me some good old fashioned Kiwiblog misogyny.

The countdown to Christmas decreases, it does not increase dumbarse.
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December 18, 2007 1:15pm
ManukauMum

Not THAT kind of act, dummies! DPF must mean that other type of act, although I’m not sure how you do it “Electoral Finance”-ly.
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December 18, 2007 1:15pm
Rachel Boyack

Um, the 12 days of Christmas actually happen AFTER Christmas Day. Everyone gets a “duh” on that one.
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December 18, 2007 1:17pm
Bevan

So Im the dumbarse then?
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December 18, 2007 1:18pm
Wycroft

A huge sack of prawns to the first Australian, or Kiwi living in Australia, anyone in fact, who takes out John Bracewell, thus removing this embarrassing nut job from the public eye.
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December 18, 2007 1:19pm
Castafiore

Tane,
Why don’t you accept the simple fact that this (EFB) is a sledgehammer to crack a walnut?
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December 18, 2007 1:19pm
hinamanu

“The bitch!”

Sticks and stones is the motto I think she would apply to herself at this time Ross.

But I seriously believe that if Labour wins the elections next year they will be secretly flabbergasted and mystified. I mean really shaking their heads and wondering how dense the electorate really is.

from here on in if they get in they can get away with anything.

They could make Tim Shadbolt look like a stirring cantankerous old dinosaur who needs strict taming and conforming. They could make hi, look totally alien to all thats decent, law abiding and appalling to the democratic process they’ve almost completely ushered away.

At the end of the day we’re just an obedient conformist society who wants to keep the status quo. There has been no status quo since 1984 and that was taken away by a Labour govt as well. 1989, they took the treason laws away and now we’re facing this sad predicament of losing our public and political voices.

What has to happen before we understand we are in a communist police state???
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December 18, 2007 1:19pm
democracymum

My ultimate Xmas Gift … and I am prepared to wait about 11 months for it

Election Night 2008

National 60% (John Key Prime Minister)
Labour 30% (The look on Helen’s face will be priceless)
Act (Rodney retaining his seat and taking a few extras back in with him)

Maori Party (Doing something about Maori crime and child abuse)

NZ First (Gone by Xmas)
Greens (Gone by Xmas)
United Future (Gone by Xmas)
Jim Anderton (Put out to pasture)
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December 18, 2007 1:25pm
Tane

Tane – just a not of interest. Does anyone even visit the Standard…

Hi Hoolian, yeah our traffic’s doing really well. By my reckoning we’d be easily the second or third most popular blog in the country and gaining. Not bad after just a few months.

We’ve also got some pretty good discussion threads going and they regularly go from 50 to 100+ comments. It’s slowed down a bit in the lead up to Xmas but I’m sure it’ll pick up again next year.

Anything else I can help you with?
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December 18, 2007 1:25pm
Hoolian

No, Tane. That pretty much answers my question. Though I’m not sure how you would quantify that you are the second or third most popular blog. Do you reguarly compare stats with other blogs, or is that from your own discernment?

Overall, its good that the Left have a standard (excuse the pun) blog that is so blatantly left-wing. I don’t agree with most (or anything) you would say but its always healthy to have discussions oversuch a diverse political spectrum. And I mean that.
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December 18, 2007 1:36pm
Nick C

“It’s slowed down a bit in the lead up to Xmas”

Perhaps because you are telling your readers to have a secular “xmas” and to make all their “xmas” desisions based on what is good for the enviroment.
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December 18, 2007 1:38pm
Johnboy

“we’d be easily the second or third most popular blog in the country and gaining.”

You should be the biggest blog by year end there will be a lot of unemployed lefties after the election with plenty of time on their hands for navel gazing!
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December 18, 2007 1:40pm
Sam

An earnest letter sent to Metiria this morning (no reply yet)…

>>Kia Ora Metiria,

I am taking the unusual (for me at least) step of writing to a Member of Parliament because I feel sufficiently strong enough about an issue, and am perturbed at how it is being ‘fielded’.

Firstly, I have a question to put to you as the co-drafter of “Protecting freedom of speech and fairer elections”. In the ‘Amendments negotiated by Greens’ section, you state the following:

>>Amendments to protect freedom of speech
1. Alter the definition of election advertising to protect issues advertising
This means that individuals and groups will be free to campaign on the issues that are important to them, regardless of whether one or more parties is also campaigning on the same issue. The Greens come from a campaigning background and we were determined to protect the right of groups to continue to campaign. For example, Greenpeace can continue to campaign against whaling, even though it is a campaign the Green Party has a profile on.
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December 18, 2007 1:43pm
kaykaybee

tane, second or third most popular blog?

I’d love to see official stats, reads like a second-rate “Wolverhampton hammer and sickle”to me.
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December 18, 2007 1:43pm
Sam

cont…

I have been through and through this Bill looking for such an exemption for issues based advocacy, and have drawn a blank. All I keep coming back to is the broad vagueness of Section 5(1)(ii), which seems to specifically include issues based advocacy. If the intention for exemption is there, it is not clearly recorded in the Bill. I would be extremely happy if you could point to where the exemption takes effect – in the Bill (just saying it is so is not good enough for me).

Secondly, I am a member of a small organisation that had intended to promote policies of sustainable urban development next year, to coincide with election year focus on affordable housing. Our stance was sharply critical of Key’s suggestion to relax the RMA to specifically promote the freeing up of land for residential development. This places us squarely within the gambit of EFB 5(1)(ii), and with uncertainties, the extra compliance, etc, we no longer feel confident of running such a campaign. Nice work on the freedom of speech front.

Lastly, the manner in which you are trying to discredit the opposition to this Bill is ill-conceived, inaccurate, and likely to cost you some support. I have always voted ‘on the left’ (and Green on at least one occasion). The legislation is appallingly drafted, and while I don’t pay heed to the suggestions that this is wilfully so, I am embarrassed that our executive would even consider passing this into law. I would vote National (for the first time ever) to ensure this is repealed.

The issue is not simply one of left versus right; it goes across the political spectrum, so your one dimensional attack on its opponents simply does you no credit at all. By trying to discredit the opposition as raving, big money, right wing lunatics, you are insulting many of your own potential supporters. You should be able to gauge from my email address that I work in a predominantly left wing institution, and the feeling amongst my colleagues is similar. This is not an issue of big money buying up elections anymore, but on the restrictions (I’ll avoid the hyperbole of a ‘direct attack’) on free speech (if it were a left/right issue, I would have thought that the left would share these views).

Anyway, I don’t expect to be able to change your mind on the merits of this Bill (especially at this late stage), but if you at least ‘listen’ to the breadth of the opposition to this Bill, then you might understand how inappropriately you have dealt with this issue.

I would very much appreciate a response on the question that I posed in the first point of this message, as it may impact on the proposed campaign for sustainable urban development (as mentioned above).

Thanks very much for your time.

Regards,
‘Sam’
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December 18, 2007 1:43pm
Johnboy

After the election victory when National forms the new Gov on its own I would like to see a binding referendum on MMP. If the liars party can gerrymander electoral law its only fair that National should let the people have a say in how the country should be run.
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December 18, 2007 1:44pm
first time caller

When I visited the standard there was no meantion of the latest polls…funny that
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December 18, 2007 1:49pm
hinamanu

democracymum,,

Your post and predictions are the stuff of dreams, and good dreams.

I wish there was a place to save posts cause I would save this post.

Its an utter pleasure to purvey. In fact to put it in a better light,

A glowing verbal portrait. I am moved to bliss.
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December 18, 2007 1:53pm
democracymum

thanks hinamanu and Merry Christmas
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December 18, 2007 1:55pm
vto

I did a wee couple of posts last night along these lines, which are a prediction for the new year;

if this EFB gets passed today then I suspect that voting intentions will become like rapid-set cement and solidify against the helengrad facsists. It will do this for a large portion of the more political thinking peoples, which are often swinging type voters (who have been labour swingers (horrid horrid thought) in recent elections).
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December 18, 2007 2:04pm
gd

Frist time caller They are still trying to figure out which excuse to use. Pity them in the New Year when the results are even worse with the Nats up over 55 points Socialists under 35 point snad the minors all under the 5 point barrier.

Apart from the Maori Party its goingt o be a 2 horse race with one horse (Socialists) pulling up lame in the last furlong
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December 18, 2007 2:05pm
Adam Smith

More on Clare Curran, the David Parker communication specialist, this from TVNZ Latest News:

” Curran contracted by ODHB
Dec 18, 2007 7:44 AM

Further details are emerging about ministry communication work undertaken by Labour Party member Clare Curran.

She is already the centre of an official investigation as to how she was hired by the Ministry for the Environment for contract communications work in 2006.

That contract work wasn’t tendered for and there is focus on how she got the job and whether it was influenced by Climate Change Minister David Parker.

Now the Otago District Health Board has confirmed it contracted Curran for a number of communications projects worth over a quarter of a million dollars between 2004 and August of this year.

The DHB says none of the contracts was subjected to a tender process”

$250,000 not subject to tender . Just what was the nature of this work?
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December 18, 2007 2:07pm
baxter

The Winston First Executive have postponed deciding who to donate our tax money to until after the New Year. Strange Coincidence the EFB will also be law from that date.
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December 18, 2007 2:12pm
Pascal

Tane, you guys should do what DPF does and put up a monthly blog stats summary. Out of curiosity, do you only count political blogs to claim your top two or top three spot or do you count all of them?
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December 18, 2007 2:15pm
Johnboy

Great stuff in the house Key got the better of Clark who could only resort to the EB excuse and her poodle jumped in to save her by biting Key on the ankle which was the higest part he could reach.
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December 18, 2007 2:15pm
infused

hahaha Winston is attacking National of the GST… when they are donating stolen money to charity.
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December 18, 2007 2:15pm
helmet

tane said “yeah our traffic’s doing really well. By my reckoning we’d be easily the second or third most popular blog in the country and gaining. Not bad after just a few months.”

..and this schmuck has the temerity to accuse DPF of vanity posts?
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December 18, 2007 2:17pm
Adam Smith

EDEN PARK Upgrade

Can someone explain to more how spending $240 million plus say $25 million on transport infrastructure, plus tens of millions elsewhere on rugby stadia for once off additional revenues, REVENUES, not profits is justified. I could understand it if there was ongoing benefit which yielded over a 10 year period say $200 million a year in surplus, ie revenue minus cost, so that there was say a tax take on the surplus of say $600 million plus the GST on the revenues. But on the numbers stated the investment does not seem justifiable.

THe IRB takes the great majority of the direct revenue, so the NZRU is going to make a loss we are told. I have seen comments that say investment in the WRC is strategic. In my experience this is what people say when seeking to justify projects that do not stack up on rational criteria for investment and they cannot quantify the intangibles.

NZRU and the Government landed us with this, and I suspect Govt bought in on the basis of ‘bread and circuses’ assuming the ABs would win in France.

Quite frankly the Americas Cup appears on these numbers to be the better public sector investment, with a longer term spin-off for the marine sector amongst others.

Whilst I rarely agree with much of what John Banks says, I do here, as why should Auckland ratepayers foot the bill for a white elephant, especially as no other council in the Region will stump up, whilst expecting to reap benefit from the event.
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December 18, 2007 2:19pm
helmet

Ironically, Tane the idiot also can’t see that without Kiwiblog, his crap blog would be doing much much worse. It would be… even crapper.
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December 18, 2007 2:19pm
Tane

It’s just an unscientific estimate based on comments, discussion on other blogs and our growing traffic. We’re not going to do monthly blog stats as I don’t think that really matters, I was just responding to a question from Hoolian.

Oh and First Time Caller, regarding your comment:

<i>When I visited the standard there was no meantion of the latest polls…funny that</i>

You probably should have looked harder. It’s the post titled “Polls”:
http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?cat=4

[Alexa (and yes it is not perfect but it is only freely available service) has The Standard as the 1,412nd most read site by NZers. That’s actually pretty good for a relatively new site, and is above many blogs. WhaleOil however is ranked 322nd]
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December 18, 2007 2:30pm
Adam Smith

SO stats do not matter – they do not matter. Ah, so evidence is no longer relevant. SO we are expected to take Tane and his chums on faith, thus in this as in so much else no evidence will be presented.
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December 18, 2007 2:34pm
Grant McKenna

Hoolian said that National got a tad delusional in the 1990s as well, suggesting that all politicians in power “go senile in the end – like a political King Lear”.

Politicians should be changed often, just as one’s baby’s nappies should be changed often, and for the same reason.

Ah well…
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December 18, 2007 2:39pm
Tane

Um, Adam, you’ll notice I used the words “By my reckoning…” rather than “The fact is…” or something similar. But hey, make a big deal out of nothing if you need something to stoke your two minutes of hate.

If you do want to look at some stats why not go check out the work The Standard and Blogblog have done on the minimum wage?

http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=883

http://kiwiblogblog.wordpress.com/2007/12/18/super-sizing-the-minimum-wage/
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December 18, 2007 2:42pm
Hoolian

Grant McKenna – I would agree with your statement that politicians should be changed often. What happens, despite good intentions, is that they become so unattached from ‘normal’, everyday life that all they have is to run on their political and personal ambitions – i.e. they stay in power as long as they can and do nothing but propagate their own personal beliefs onto other people, with no regard as to whether or not it’s good for NZ.
So change is good – good for the party, good for the country and definitely good for democracy.
An electoral loss is probably the best thing Labour can hope for. It will not revitalise itself otherwise.

And Labour should be careful. If they sink too much further in the polls they run the risk of becoming a ‘minor’ party as Clark cheerfully acclaimed National was following the 2002 election.
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December 18, 2007 2:59pm
Julian

Another email doing the rounds today:

http://www.spareroom.co.nz/2007/12/18/gourmet-food-store-lets-rip-at-client-via-email/
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December 18, 2007 3:02pm
Hoolian

Tane – “If you do want to look at some stats why not go check out the work The Standard and Blogblog have done on the minimum wage?”

But this isn’t stats about the popularity of your blog, or even its traffic. Its stats on something completely irrelevent. I think if you’re going to claim “easily second or third” most popular blog, you should at least have some stats to back it up. Its an outrageous and effortlessly discredited assertion otherwise.

Or is there something you don’t want to face?
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December 18, 2007 3:03pm
Julian

Tane noone reads that rubbish you guys write at the standard. The only visits you’ll get are people going there once, realising it is a complete waste of time, and not going back.

There’s a reason why Kiwiblog gets so much traffic.
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December 18, 2007 3:07pm
virtualmark

Anyone else read the article on page A3 of today’s DomPost about how much each mayoral candidate spent on their election campaigning earlier this year?

Yep, money buys elections. That’s why Helene Ritchie is the new Mayor of Wellington.

Hang on. What the ???!! Maybe money can’t buy votes after all … so can someone remind me why the Brethren are such a threat to democracy?

Or are the Greens worried that the Brethren were actually right???
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December 18, 2007 3:08pm
Bevan

[Alexa (and yes it is not perfect but it is only freely available service) has The Standard as the 1,412nd most read site by NZers. That’s actually pretty good for a relatively new site, and is above many blogs. WhaleOil however is ranked 322nd]

Ouch, that must hurt.
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December 18, 2007 3:09pm
Johnboy

Hoolian Says:

“An electoral loss is probably the best thing Labour can hope for. It will not revitalise itself otherwise.”

How can labour revitalise if that means replacing its collection of pol sci lecturers, failed teachers and union bagmen with another lot of the same?
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December 18, 2007 3:14pm
vto

it gives me the heebee jeebees everytime I see the types who occupy labours ranks. academics, teachers, unionists.

Don’t get me wrong – they have their place. But they should stick to it.
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December 18, 2007 3:19pm
infused

Keys speech was spot on.
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December 18, 2007 3:32pm
democracymum

Great Speech John!

I notice that Helen is so threatened by John Key that she has left the chamber
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December 18, 2007 3:40pm
Brownie

Breaking News! Mallard Guilty on Lesser Charge!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4328696a10.html

He pleaded guilty to the Lesser Charge of Fighting in a public place, convicted and fined $500 to be given to Charity.

This whole thing was a bore to start with. I actually (choke) feel a bit sorry for him.
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December 18, 2007 3:51pm
Johnboy

Maybe he will give it to Starship!!
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December 18, 2007 3:52pm
ghostwhowalks

About 200,000 workers on the lowest pay rates are to get a wage rise of up to $30 a week, after the Government agreed to lift the adult minimum wage to $12 an hour.

Welcome to the real world. This is what will get votes not the mad yappings of the NP and ACT terriers
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December 18, 2007 4:20pm
Adam Smith

Hone Harawirs is now making a strong speech on EFB and setting out a principled view from a position other than the right.

Calls it decadent and depraved legislation
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December 18, 2007 4:30pm
AucklandChap

Peter Dunne speaking now… he has just announced they are NOT supporting the bill??
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December 18, 2007 4:36pm
Adam Smith

Dunne now seeking to justify himself, refers to court of public opinion,he is using this to withdraw UF support for bill, thus he seeks to keep himself in baubles, refers to support for Labour only for balance of term.

Quote: “Blind adherence to leading the country is arrogance……….”

Rat has jumped ship to all intents and purposes, to save himself – what a tosser!
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December 18, 2007 4:36pm
Wycroft

Sounds like he’s just been reading some Hunter Thompson, decadent and depraved the EFB certainly is, but it’s not Hone’s poetry.
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December 18, 2007 4:40pm
Johnboy

ghostwhowalks Says:

“About 200,000 workers on the lowest pay rates are to get a wage rise of up to $30 a week, after the Government agreed to lift the adult minimum wage to $12 an hour.”

If they save it for a year ghost they will have enough to go to OZ where they can triple their wage after the years of success there under Johnny Howard.
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December 18, 2007 5:47pm
krazykiwi

Say, has anyone else noticed a bit of taxpayer cash being splashed around in the last 4-5days

2x maori ‘settlements’ (wellington and waikato river)

1x Stadium (still think this is an excuse to have wads of taxpayer cash floating around an ‘undefined’ contract scope – I do hope none of it appears as now-legislated anon donations to the Labour party)

1x Minimum wage increase

Now nothing on their own perhaps … but these in rapid succession just prior to the EFB lurching violently onto our statute books, and in advance of next years tax-cuts which just might benefit folks who don’t support Labour. Hmmmm ….
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December 18, 2007 10:39pm
Tane

Minimum wage increase has nothing to do with taxpayer cash.

Maori settlements are done under the Treaty and are supported by both major parties.

Stadium some of us may have issues with but it’s a valid government activity with wide public support.

As for the EFB conspiracy… tin. foil. hat.
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December 19, 2007 1:53am
Pascal

No tin foil hat, Tane. Smart politics. Don’t always try to hide what Labour does by throwing glib phrases around. It only makes you look dumb.
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December 19, 2007 4:34am

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