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November 27, 2007 6:57am by David Farrar

General Debate 27 November 2007

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BeShakey

I think people are being a bit unfair in dismissing Stanley’s arguments. I don’t necessarily agree with them, but they are interesting, and some of the comments on them have been unduly harsh.

For a good statement of the position advocated by Stanley read Peter Singer’s The Ethics of What We Eat. Singer is fairly radical, and lots of people find his views both extreme and (in some cases) offensive. Nonetheless he is very respected for putting together very intelligent arguments to support his views.

I think most people here disagree strongly with Stanleys views, but most of the comments ignore some of the key arguments such as that animals suffer through our treatment of them (not just the killing for food but the entire process) and therefore we should change our treatment of them if we can.
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November 27, 2007 4:08pm
dad4justice

stan , what time tomorrow ?
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November 27, 2007 4:08pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

BeShakey:

Battery hen farms are the classic drawcard for veganism. And here is one area where consumers can exercise freedom of choice; those who claim to care about animal rights can pay a little extra for free-range eggs.
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November 27, 2007 4:10pm
Stanley Climbfall

I don’t know what your perverted interest in Cup Chicks is, but as a lawyer, you should know better than most that R18 doesn’t apply in the case of banned publications.

Yes I do actually realise it’s illegal to distribute or cause others to view sex involving urine or excrement under the Broadcasting Act or something (a clause Lianne Dalziel added in after a public submission)… I’m generally just taking the piss most of the time when I debate with D4J and am not overtly concerned with breaking the law as I think the police have more serious matters to attend to than come after some internet joke blog post.
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November 27, 2007 4:13pm
Stanley Climbfall

(Despite the fact that it is not actually illegal to engage in it here in NZ – it’s just illegal to view it, which is quite an anomaly).
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November 27, 2007 4:14pm
dad4justice

stan – you are the one who should be worried about police .
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November 27, 2007 4:15pm
Buggerlugs

On another general debate topic, does anyone with a missing pet wish they had unfeasibly large breasts and were famous for being, ah, famous? http://www.stuff.co.nz/4289775a1860.html
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November 27, 2007 4:15pm
Buggerlugs

I meant to add ‘fer chrissakes’ to that last post…
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November 27, 2007 4:15pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Um, Stan, it’s actually covered by the Films Videos and Publications Classification Act 1993. See http://www.censorship.govt.nz/law.html for the legal low-down.
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November 27, 2007 4:17pm
dad4justice

I know where cricket is – he opened for the black cups last night ? Golden duck and cold showers all around !!
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November 27, 2007 4:17pm
Stanley Climbfall

Just did a quick search, it’s under the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act 1993 section 3 subsection 2. Publication is illegal but arguably I can post a link to it with a warning, it would be similar to say you posting a link to http://www.rotton.com but warning that it involves graphic violence.
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November 27, 2007 4:17pm
dad4justice

I will ring john brace notwell immediately in search of cricket , don’t worry dear .
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November 27, 2007 4:18pm
Buggerlugs

In her ‘purveyor of tat’ case it might be cold duck , and…oh never mind…
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November 27, 2007 4:19pm
Stanley Climbfall

OK to change the topic. Emma Agnew – is it just Christchurch or is the talk all over NZ?

Apparently she used to come to the Church I regularly go to and all the people there are quite sad about the situation. I actually think she’s probably dead by now and I really hope the person who allegedly met up with her buy her car comes forward.
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November 27, 2007 4:20pm
dad4justice

stan crawl back into the sewage pond !!!
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November 27, 2007 4:21pm
Seamonkey Madness

That’s a negative Stanley. D4J and I do not hang with each other. Nor do we have any commuication outside this blog.

My last post was supposed to be a witty barb against my future (here’s hoping…NOT) brother-in-law, not you.

I withdraw and apologise.

I was only letting off steam, but really it was pointless, as the neanderthal couldn’t even summon enough kinetic energy to read, let alone type.

My only excuse is I have a rather strong disdain for celery-munchers, and I’m sorry that you fall into that catergory. Well, that and your repugnant analogy in the first post. You have to admit that it got people talking though!
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November 27, 2007 4:24pm
dad4justice

Poor Emma looks a bit like Kirsty ? I hope they catch this mongrel dog and string the bastard up ! I hate to think it’s another cold case situation ? I have my fingers crossed , however things are never easy – eh LADS ?
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November 27, 2007 4:28pm
BeShakey

“Battery hen farms are the classic drawcard for veganism. And here is one area where consumers can exercise freedom of choice; those who claim to care about animal rights can pay a little extra for free-range eggs.”

Not being a vegan myself it’s bit awkward to respond to that, but I think a vegan (and of course its not just vegans who oppose battery farms) would argue that market choice isn’t a morally acceptable vehicle to address what is, according to their view, effectively torture. Just as we don’t think it should be a freedom of choice issue about buying or not buying goods made using slave labour, or where people are harmed either deliberately or through negligence, neither should we accept a market solution in this case. Particularly when it is fairly easy (and relatively cheap based on prices) to fix this.
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November 27, 2007 4:32pm
Stanley Climbfall

Thanks Seamonkey, I’m sorry for being unkind to you too.

Just in… Actually about an hour ago but I only just saw it – a Christchurch man has been arrested in connection to the murder of Emma Agnew. No details yet really besides the fact that the police stormed his apartment complex.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10478649
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November 27, 2007 4:33pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Did anyone else see this:

“Older women join Kenya’s sex tourists”
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4288692a34.html

We live in interesting times.
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November 27, 2007 4:35pm
david

Stanley’s biggest failing is that he is proposing that a WHOLE SHITLOAD of animals would never see the light of day, let alone gambol on the hills or paerticipate in the joys of both eating grass and having sex because – there would be no animals on farms. How dare you Stanley impose such a lack of existence on so many.
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November 27, 2007 4:35pm
david

BTW Stanley, have you ever seen a sheep or a goat or a horse die of old age? It is a horrible, horrible thing to behold, I honestly don’t see how you can’t have thought this through to its logical conclusion.

Consider also that if we were evolved to be vegetarian we would have rumens and totally different teeth.
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November 27, 2007 4:40pm
Stanley Climbfall

PLEASE READ before commenting david, you’ve shown nothing but your prejudice and ignorance when making a reply on a topic which obviously you had an answer ready for without even looking at the other side of the argument.

# Stanley Climbfall Says:
November 27th, 2007 at 2:07 pm

Considering how the vast majority of farm animals are currently raised in modern industrialized agriculture, these animals would have been far better off never having been born. The best moment in these animals lives is when they finally die, because only then does their suffering finally end.

However, if the animals are raised and slaughtered humanely, some would say that it is better for the animals to have experienced life for a brief time before slaughter, rather than never have been born at all. My response to this is the following.

Once an individual is born, we have the same obligation to act ethically toward them as we do towards everyone else. This is not changed by the fact that the individual would have never been born in the first place without our intervention. This is the reason that child abuse is immoral. Even though the child would have never existed without his parents, this does not give his parents the right to physically abuse him.

If we hypothetically lived in a cannibalistic society which bred and raised a race of humans for food, then we would be correct in condemning this practice, even though without it, these humans would have never existed in the first place.

In spite of all this reasoning, some people insist that by refraining from eating meat, I am guilty of depriving farm animals the chance to be born and experience life. One way to respond to this is to point out the inherent inefficiency of using farm land to grow crops for livestock, instead of growing crops consumed directly by humans. If everyone ate a vegetarian diet, then a much larger human population could be sustained with the available resources.

Therefore, if I am “guilty” of depriving farm animals the chance to be born, then people who eat meat are “guilty” of depriving human beings the chance to be born and experience life.
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November 27, 2007 4:48pm
dad4justice

Look stan – go eat your pink poodle and red rabbit !!
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November 27, 2007 4:50pm
Stanley Climbfall

Note also BeShaky’s sensible post:

I think most people here disagree strongly with Stanleys views, but most of the comments ignore some of the key arguments such as that animals suffer through our treatment of them (not just the killing for food but the entire process) and therefore we should change our treatment of them if we can.
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November 27, 2007 4:51pm
hinamanu

“Well Stan, I notice your comments and ask were you involved in an incident recently that occurred in the Occidental Hotel – Latimer Square Christchurch ? Curfew ??”

Cacofinix, you pathetic Doe Doe nutbar

How do you know so much about all this. first hand knowledge??

You know not to go too close to the Sq. Men are waiting for you.
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November 27, 2007 4:51pm
Buggerlugs

“Listed-healthcare and beauty product retailer Life Pharmacy is among a number of New Zealand businesses that expect the KiwiSaver scheme to hurt employers in the long term…”

Tutae, Sam & Co – feeling the knife twist yet? It’s not too late to go and live in North Korea before we take over next year, y’know…Winston can probably even jack you up a job in the secret police tell-tale tit division.
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November 27, 2007 4:54pm
hinamanu

“Older women join Kenya’s sex tourists”

so what.

I really mean that

so what

??????????????
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November 27, 2007 4:56pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Buggerlugs:

Got a link?
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November 27, 2007 4:56pm
dad4justice

“You know not to go too close to the Sq. Men are waiting for you.”

Fuck off hinamanu you coward lump of dog shit !!
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November 27, 2007 4:58pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Hinamanu:

Have you read the article? Some selective quotes:

One type of sex tourist attracted the other,” said one manager at a shorefront bar on Mombasa’s Bamburi beach.

“Old white guys have always come for the younger girls and boys, preying on their poverty. . . But these old women followed. . . they never push the legal age limits, they seem happy just doing what is sneered at in their countries.”

Experts say some thrive on the social status and financial power that comes from taking much poorer, younger lovers.

“This is what is sold to tourists by tourism companies – a kind of return to a colonial past, where white women are served, serviced, and pampered by black minions,” said Nottinghan University’s Davidson.

I just thought it’s interesting that sex tourism has been taken to a whole new level.
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November 27, 2007 5:00pm
Julian

Stan I don’t know that they suffer that much at all. Meat is tough if the animal is experiencing stress before it’s killed. If you knew how the process worked you would know this – hence my suspicion that you’re making most of your claims up.

Animals lead pretty good lives on farms then they’re shipped to the works where they’re killed humanely and painlessly, unaware of what’s about to happen to them.
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November 27, 2007 5:01pm
hinamanu

Japanese women travel to Thailand for the services of well endowed balck men

No one says a thing.

White women travel to Africa for the same, every ones talking about it.

If these countries had oil the US would be condemning it all.
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November 27, 2007 5:01pm
dad4justice

“If these countries had oil the US would be condemning it all.”

What psych ward are you in hinumoo ?
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November 27, 2007 5:03pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Hinamanu:

I think that sex tourism debates have focused on paedophiles – clearly illegal sex. But, speaking more generally, you’d have to wonder why a person travels to another country looking for sex. It’s just my opinion, but if they can’t get enough of it in their home country, what with internet dating sites and all, then there’s probably something wrong with them.
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November 27, 2007 5:05pm
hinamanu

“hinumoo”

cacofinix,,

I’m surprised you connect me wif your favourite animal.

Did you know there’s a whole country dedicated to these bovines.

Yes,, it s true !!!

India.

Go there, stay there.

Make all your fantasies come true.

Don’t forget the free milk. Titties everywhere.
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November 27, 2007 5:09pm
david

Well lets put it like this Stan, you can’t have learnt much, during your internship, about capturing attention or presenting a concise and logical argument. To be honest, I have better things to do than to wade through screeds to find your argument.

Question, did the dried crickets I crunched on in North Korea as a bar snack, or the stingray whose partially decomposed wings I was fed, or the sea cucumber served in a Chinese Restaurant scream in paid while they were despatched and should I feel guilty for having consumed them? Have you ever tried to teach your pet crocodile to eat grass?, your python to eat vegetables?, your owl to exist on non-protein food sources?

Cheerio
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November 27, 2007 5:10pm
Buggerlugs

POC – just shooting off to torture some unionists with the collected audiobooks of Keith Locke, but you’ll find the story on the Herald website under Business. Toodles…
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November 27, 2007 5:15pm
hinamanu

Peak Oil Conspiracy,,

No.

Its the narrow minded excuses of anglo saxon socities and their hang ups
and why we have to conform to whats normal according to oppresive white politicians.

These dicks are why anarchy is promoted.

Intolerance and opposition to anything different.

I’m 47. I know a woman two decades older than me I can be seen with.

If I tried to be seen with a female two decades younger I would be treated close to a pedofile.

Society is oppresive and not worth conforming to.
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November 27, 2007 5:16pm
dad4justice

“If I tried to be seen with a female two decades younger I would be treated close to a pedofile.”

Look hinumoo nutbar , give the nurse a buzz and tell her to ask the doc to up your meds urgently and you’re clearly delusional .
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November 27, 2007 5:20pm
hinamanu

No delusion,

I know because hypocrites already talked about me being in the company of a 22 y o.

I’m med free and drug free

and in this blog, insult free. (except from a demented insulting machochist
craving the most imaginative insults to his dishonoured and personality chal;lenged character. and with htat, I just figured out I have been feeding him all this time. what a sad and woeful individual he is.)you can’t say that .
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November 27, 2007 5:31pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

D4J:

What’s this about an “Islamic dad4justice imposter”?
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November 27, 2007 5:40pm
dad4justice

I rest my case .
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November 27, 2007 5:40pm
dad4justice

POC – the Muslims are getting angry with me !!
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November 27, 2007 5:42pm
PhilBest

Oh come ON Hinamanu, there’s NO COMPARISON between society’s attitudes to a 47-year-old shacked up with a 27-year-old, and its attitudes to a 21-year-old with an 11-year-old. The latter IS, SHOULD BE, AND ALWAYS SHOULD BE, a CRIME.

And Stanley Climbfall et al, do you really MEAN to be indirectly pushing for the pardoning of Graeme Capill? Or is it OK by you if we only lock up Christian fundamentalist hypocrites for paedophilia?
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November 27, 2007 5:43pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Hinamanu:

I don’t think you can always promote anarchy as a tonic for living in an oppresive society.

If you’re 47 and in relationship with a 60-something year-old, then that’s none of my business.

If you’re 47 and in a relationship with a 20-something year-old, then I wouldn’t be among those equating you to a paedophile. But I might be asking questions about whether she’s thought things through properly, as her life goals (at that stage of her life) are probably very different to yours (at this stage of your life).

This is a moral relativist argument, so I’m not claiming to have a better argument than yours, but hopefully you can now see where I was coming from.
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November 27, 2007 5:50pm
hinamanu

“Oh come ON Hinamanu, there’s NO COMPARISON between society’s attitudes to a 47-year-old shacked up with a 27-year-old.”

True.

I said i was criticised by being with a 22 yo.

If you notice US programmes, no one is fully sexual till around the 25 y o mark. The white house has everyone over there terrified.

I noticed the US had imprisoned a film maker for filming two 17 y o’s kissing. That is truly twisted.
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November 27, 2007 5:51pm
Andrew W

POC, How often do you hear of couples (of the same age) one wants lots of kids the other wants few or none. Similar age is no guarantee of similar life goals, different ages no guarantee of different life goals.

Let people run their own lives, why should you be asking questions (unless it’s your 20 something daughter)?
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November 27, 2007 5:56pm
hinamanu

“If you’re 47 and in a relationship with a 20-something year-old, then I wouldn’t be among those equating you to a paedophile. But I might be asking questions about whether she’s thought things through properly, as her life goals (at that stage of her life) are probably very different to yours (at this stage of your life).”

Agreed. Nothing in common what so ever.

I feel sorry for men who feel they need young girls to make them happy.
The communication problems would be shocking.

I do beleive once most people are over 25, they’ve pretty much figured themselves out.

I would have no problems being involved with a 28 y o. thinking about 30 by then anyway.
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November 27, 2007 5:56pm
dad4justice

How many calves you got Miss Hinumoo ?
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November 27, 2007 5:59pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

AndrewW:

The libertarian philosophy presupposes one thing: informed decision-making.

Now in the (hypothetical) case of a young, say, 18 year-old who shacks up with a 50-plus year-old, are you seriously telling me that she’s already made an informed decision not to have kids, to settle down with her chosen life partner, etc?
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November 27, 2007 6:02pm
Andrew W

“I feel sorry for men who feel they need young girls to make them happy.”

That’s a shallow perception hin, could it possibly be that the relationship should be seen as being between 2 people, 2 individuals, rather than between a 40 something and a 20 something?

Don’t feel sorry for them, they may well be happier than you.
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November 27, 2007 6:02pm
hinamanu

“How many calves you got”

You’ve already spoken of your preference for cows cacofinix.

stick to them.

My kids and how many I have will never be your affair.
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November 27, 2007 6:04pm
Andrew W

informed decision-making is not guaranteed no matter what the age, if the relationship doesn’t work, either party, or both parties can be the loser.
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November 27, 2007 6:05pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

AndrewW:

True, life experience comes with age, but age doesn’t necessarily correlate to informed decision-making. But surely you’d agree that (at least on the law of averages, allowing for the occasional exception) an 18-year-old woman is much less equipped to make significant decisions about her future than her 28-year-old future self? If the 28-year-old gets into a bad relationship, they can (hopefully) put it down to experience and move on.
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November 27, 2007 6:09pm
hinamanu

“I feel sorry for men who feel they need young girls to make them happy.”

That’s a shallow perception hin,”

No,,

I’m talkin bout men (middle age crisis) who don’t understand a happy communication with some one who’s closer to understanding them.

To know any one of any age understands you is real communication.

Unfortunately, the generation gap is a real thing.

But most young people will listen to an adult who has shown their ears are open as well.
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November 27, 2007 6:09pm
dad4justice

I have read some rubbish on this blog but hinamoo – you take the cake ? What a fruit cake . Is your real name Phillip John Mason ?
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November 27, 2007 6:16pm
Andrew W

POC, personally Im inclined to agree that relationships between older guys and under 20s probably wont work out, but I suspect its more likely to be the guy who gets burnt, the young are more resilient, 18 year olds have shorter relationships and more break-ups, at least thats the impression I’ve always had.

hin, I’ve met plenty of 50 year old children and plenty of 20 year old adults.
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November 27, 2007 6:20pm
Buggerlugs

I’m talkin bout men (middle age crisis) who don’t understand a happy communication with some one who’s closer to understanding them.

You mean like Stan trying to talk to Jesus?
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November 27, 2007 6:27pm
Andrew W

Hey hin, there was a study recently that pointed the the reason for men having so called middle age crises as being the age of their wifes, men with older wives had MAC when they themselves were young, men with younger wifes had MAC when they themselves were older.
So the way to avoid a MAC is to always have a young wife, simple really.
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November 27, 2007 6:33pm
Steve

Stanley Climbfall
At 1.54 you insulted my pet rock. My friend is not happy. I am thinking of going the the Human Rights Commission to see if my Pet Rock has any rights.
How dare you say my friend does not exhibit any behavior which would indicate that they possess consciousness?
You are advertising space, back into the woodwork sunshine, see you after the next FULL MOON.
Regards, Steve Thomas (what is your real nameStanley)
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November 27, 2007 6:37pm
john

having read these posts , and knowing im a bit of a loose cannon with my mouth , SHIT there are a few posters who take the cake TONIGHT . but continue posters , but take your pills when you finish, John
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November 27, 2007 7:42pm
Nick C

Stanley: I have an answer to your question. Rights to not derive from the ability to feel pain. We gain our rights from our responcbility to respect other peoples rights. We gain our rights from our responcibility to be held accountable for our actions in a court of law. We gain our rights from our ability to make judgements based on morals and, most importantly tell right from wrong.

Animals can do none of these things. They act only on instinct and have no consideration for others or their rights. Because of this it would be silly to give people rights, as all rights derive from responcibilities.
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November 27, 2007 7:46pm
Nick C

Last paragraph should read: “silly to give animals rights”
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November 27, 2007 7:47pm
Yvette

Still why is a whale considered more valuable than, say, a rabbit?
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November 27, 2007 9:04pm
Nick C

Yvette: Given that nethier has rights we must consider what other value they might have. Morally speaking they are equals (although opinions are often influenced by emotion). Whales are a valueable resourse, and killing them off would have an unknown effect on the marine ecosystem, which we depend on for food. On the other hand rabbits are pests to the enviroment in New Zealand, so we are even encouraged kill them at our leisure.
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November 27, 2007 9:22pm
Steve

Totaly agree with Nick.
Stan is from a different place. He has no responsabilty or morals.
Lot of time here today Stan, day off or just don’t work for a living?
Cup of tea? Sav Blanc, or just water?
OMG I know, move to Australia Stan and leave us normal people in peace.
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November 27, 2007 9:23pm
Steve

yeah Nick, fucken BANG!!
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November 27, 2007 9:25pm
Lee C

http://www.national.org.nz/ambitious.aspx
check out the vid
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November 27, 2007 10:40pm
Lee C

Just been to the Very Double Standard. They are crazy about John Key there! I think they have about four posts just about him, going on. He really has annoyed them for some reason.
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November 27, 2007 11:01pm
libertyscott

“The libertarian philosophy presupposes one thing: informed decision-making.”

No it doesn’t, it presupposes adults generally know best how to run their lives, and that other adults generally don’t and the state generally does not, as none of the above have the right incentives to make good choices and not make bad ones. Many religions believe the opposite, as do most utopian grand visions of humanity that worship sacrifice.
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November 27, 2007 11:22pm
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Um, LibertyScott, spot the difference between “informed decision-making” and “adults generally know best how to run their lives”?
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November 27, 2007 11:54pm
Rex Widerstrom

side show bob suggests:

…if you can’t tell the difference bewteen a nice medium rare steak and some pussy…

There’s a joke about about a very bad restaurant and the lack of strays nearby in there somewhere…

I’m ridiculously kind to animals (I’ll throw snails into the long grass near the creek rather than step on them) but I love a good steak. My denying myself that nice marbled piece of Scotch fillet isn’t, alas, going to result in the poor thing gambolling around in the field again.

It’s called hypocrisy, Stanley. It’s like telling the significant other her/his bum doesn’t look huge in their favourite outfit while calculating the possible revenue from renting it out as a billboard.

Vegetarianism for reasons of animal rights is rather like unilateral disarmament. It’s only going to work if everyone agrees to do it at once. More’s the pity. But meanwhile, the cheeseburger’s not only already deceased but is perfectly cooked, sso you’ll have to excuse me…
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November 28, 2007 3:20am

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