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November 7, 2007 12:15pm by David Farrar

General Debate 07 November 2007

So who’s up for a holiday to Fiji then?

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Kimble

“restricts jobs to ensue competition and keep the plebs full of uncertainty and fearing for their security and future”

Ok nutjob, how do they do this? How do they stop people working for themselves when they cant even stop self-employed drug growers, DVD piraters, hitmen, etc.
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November 7, 2007 8:27pm
Kimble

hinamanu, if you aren’t taking the piss, take your pills before you start raving about 5 jew bankers.
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November 7, 2007 8:29pm
Robyn E. Kenealy

Kimble: Yes, what you’ve said about Julia Roberts makes complete sense. Do you know the star theorist Richard Dyer? He’s done some very similar writing. I am a big fan of his work.

Having said this though, re: single mothers et al, isn’t there a concept somewhere that happy, healthy children are benficial to society as whole? In this, I mean that a mother working inside the home IS valuble to society simply because children ARE society, or will be.

But this isn’t quite my point. More, I am interested in the idea that there is an ideological process by which some kinds of work are seen as more valuable than others, which restricts worth in a financial sense to those who are able to obtain that kind of work. A bit like hina said but less orchestrated – I’m talking about ideology as the measure of society rather than a dictate here, so you were correct to pull me up on talking about capitalism as if it were thinking and making decisions. What I am really talking about is the capitalist ideology. Your points about Julia Roberts fit this exactly – Julia is financially valuable simply because she is Julia, but none of us can be Julia too. Therefore she occupies a privilaged position that CANNOT be obtained by anyone else, no matter how hard they work.

And then there’s the free lunch: I don’t see it as costing, as taking, I see it as giving. When someone makes lunch for me, it doesn’t cost them, they give it to me. It adds to them.
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November 7, 2007 8:34pm
Kimble

This whole idea that capitalism is a mechanism by which humans can put a value on others is ridiculous.

I have met millionaires who arent worth a polite greeting. I have met pensioners who are worthy of all my respect.

You arent what you earn!
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November 7, 2007 8:36pm
Kimble

Just quickly.

“When someone makes lunch for me, it doesn’t cost them, they give it to me. It adds to them.”

It does cost them. It takes time that they could use to do other things. It burns energy that could be put to use doing something else. They may get more back through a good feeling, but that doesnt mean there wasnt a cost involved in the equation.
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November 7, 2007 8:39pm
roger nome

Kimble:

“Ok nutjob, how do they do this? How do they stop people working for themselves when they cant even stop self-employed drug growers, DVD piraters, hitmen, etc.”

When the reserve bank ups interest rates to curb inflation it makes it harder for new businesses to start up and existing businesses to expand their operations, as these things often involve loans. So in this way the reserve back, which could be interfered with if the government so wished, does restrict employment opportunities to some degree. Of course there is the argument that in the long term large levels of inflation would destroy business confidence and result in lower employment.

It really is interesting when you look at the big picture though. i.e. between 1945 and 1980 the predominance of keynsianist/nationalist economics brought the super rich’s share of National GPD down from 34% to 24% in Many of the big developed economies. i.e. Unionism bargained up wages, so the real product wage increased and profits decreased. Yet since economies have become globalised unions have lost their power and the super-rich’s share of wealth has gone back up to 1945 levels. Yet in france, where the unions are still strong the super-rich’s share of wealth remains at 1985 levels.

See page 16 of this link:

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/48/9/34483698.pdf –

The point of all this is that economies are easily manipulated by governments, so there’s no reason to believe that governments cant consciously choose to increase or decrease unemployment/employment levels.
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November 7, 2007 8:48pm
hinamanu

“The point of all this is that economies are easily manipulated by governments, so there’s no reason to believe that governments cant consciously choose to increase or decrease unemployment/employment levels.”

Bullseye.
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November 7, 2007 8:55pm
thehawkreturns

Our pollies and DPF are wrong on Bananarama. I simply cannot find a single work colleague from Fiji (I have spoken to eight) who does not believe that Frankie did the right thing in chucking out an illegitimate regime and taking over.
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November 7, 2007 8:55pm
Robyn E. Kenealy

You’re right about the lunch, Kimble. But so am I. This is fundemtally what I believe – that the intrinsic structure of capitalism is One-ness. In that, we are taught to believe there is one right answer, and we are taught to argue and make our point. But we could argue all day and we would still both be right – so instead, we must change our thinking to both/and rather than either/or. Lunch does cost. But lunch is also gift, and therefore free.

Secondly, I don’t believe any individual decisions are made when capitalism places value – I’m looking back over our discussion and am becoming aware that I haven’t been very clear, in the sense that I am talking about Capitalist Ideology, not induvidual people making decisions about who or what is valuable. Capitalism, as a system, rewards certain kinds of work above others, therefore it introduces the idea that one thing is more valuable than another, whether or not this translates to your or my actual belief in the value of that thing or person. I believe this idea is also intrinsic to capitalism. So perhaps I am wrong in saying One-ness. Perhaps I should say that Capitalism = Two-ness, swapping for position always, retaining the notion that one is right. Would you agree with this?

And eventually this does come to expression through individuals. You’ve used the words “free riders” today, and they are meaningful and emotional, I think. Just like the words “fat cat.” All of this indicates to be the living binary.

My question is: What is Thirdness? What is made from both/and?
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November 7, 2007 9:26pm
Robyn E. Kenealy

Reading the things you write, Dad, is a bit like watching a trainwreck. You’re so freaking angry! And you keep making threats! But the worst thing is that people egg you on and they encourage you to do that and it sucks. We shouldn’t do that.

In that light, personally I’m sorry that the first time we met I wrote bullshit bravado back to you instead of being honest and telling you how the way you write affects me. I don’t like it, and it indicates to me a real, deep anger at something that is far more serious than politics could ever be.

If that apology is in any way meaningful to you, then I’m glad.
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November 7, 2007 9:54pm
Robyn E. Kenealy

I have to go now, but wanted to say goodnight and thanks to all the people who’ve been swapping ideas with me, esp. Kimble. I think I have learned a bit.

So – night.

ps: Roger, stop it. It’s beneath you.
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November 7, 2007 10:07pm
roger nome

Robyn:

I honestly believe that you’re too nice for this place. Which isn’t to say that I don’t enjoy having you here, it’s very refreshing – just that this place has many people whose only aim in coming here is to spread their own misery. Unfortunately that’s the truth of it.

oh and by the way, if D4J has to be a part of kiwiblog and ruin everyone else’s experience I don’t see why he should get off scott free – understand, i’ve had over a year’s experience with him – he abuses people whether they abuse him first or not, it really makes no difference.
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November 7, 2007 10:13pm
Kimble

“There is no such thing as a free lunch” is not an ideological statement. IT, quite frankly, is stating an unavoidable fact. Choices must be made. If we had unlimited resources, and that includes unlimited time, we wouldn’t have to make choices. But we don’t so we do.

It is trite to talk about some fantastical “and/also” world where everything is possible, but in reality we live in a world where “either/or” decisions must be made.

The decision between two options requires people to decide which is the one they think is right for them. Two people can afford one only CD each, they must decide between two band they like. Person A like band Z more so his decision is that purchasing Band Z’s CD is right. Person B likes Band Y’s music more the the right decision for him is that CD.

Same decision, two different decisions on what is right.

What capitalism does is it allows Person A to listen to CDZ for a while, and Person B to listen to CDY for a while and then swap CD’s so they can both enjoy both bands. They are both better off because they can trade.

“Capitalism, as a system, rewards certain kinds of work above others”

No, it doesnt. Capitalism does not reward anyone.

The term “free rider” is not an emotive one. It describes a certain economic situation.

You have to get away from this idea that money is some sort of unnatural thing. Currency is just a medium of exchange.

“Having said this though, re: single mothers et al, isn’t there a concept somewhere that happy, healthy children are beneficial to society as whole? In this, I mean that a mother working inside the home IS valuable to society simply because children ARE society, or will be.”

The payment that mothers get for not raising monstrous children who will steal, rape and murder other people, is that other people will raise children that wont steal, rape and murder other people. Demanding anything more than this, such as income, is extortion.

And Roger, it is no surprise that you agree with that loony tune Hinamanu.
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November 7, 2007 10:14pm
milo

Go away Roger Nome. You are deliberately attacking somebody in their most vulnerable area for sport. It is a despicable action.
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November 7, 2007 10:20pm
dad4justice

That’s very rich coming from a Mason shoe tapper dad.
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November 7, 2007 10:22pm
krazykiwi

Robyn, handle wise counsel from roger nome like you would nuclear waste
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November 7, 2007 10:26pm
Robyn E. Kenealy

What a beautiful answer! I was just shutting down my machine, but I owe that a reply, Kimble.

First thing: Do you find “reward” a loaded word? If you do, I won’t use it.

Second thing: What about buying no CD at all? What about downloading the CD? What about learning guiatr instead? I like your analogy though. It is very clear.

I believe that ‘free lunch’ IS an ideological statement, because it is about perception, in the sense that use, as in the use of money, resources or time is percieved as “cost” rather than “doing.” What I mean is this: what else would you be doing other than making that person lunch? How is the decision made that time spent is cost? Isn’t doing things with your time simply living? Because it is percieved as “instead of something else,” it would confirm my thoughts about one-ness + two-ness.
So would what you wrote about the CD.
So basically, we are in agreement.

I appreciate that this may sound full on and crazy to you, but all cliches are, essientially, is packaged ideology. Ideology is, according to Richard Dyer, ”the set of ideas and representations in which people collectively make sense of the world and the society in which they live.” What is “there is no such thing as a free lunch” but an example of this?

To someone who had no concept of our society, they might read it this way: People here view the things they do as work, which requires cost. All things here are an exchange of possessions.

Goodnight, though, and thank you for being patient with me.
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November 7, 2007 10:32pm
Robyn E. Kenealy

And krazykiwi, how is what you just wrote any better? I usually fuind roger’s contributions excellent.
Let’s keep it clean, people.
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November 7, 2007 10:33pm
krazykiwi

ah robyn, so new and so many e-personalities for you to scope out. it’s fun! welcome 🙂
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November 7, 2007 10:34pm
roger nome

Hey Kimble – I was just thinking you might reading this anarcho-feminist sci-fi book as a way of exploring some of the ideas that I think Robyn’s talking about. Basically it describes a libertarian socialist epistemology – and it’s a bloody good read to boot.

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/science_fiction/dispossessed.html
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November 7, 2007 10:53pm
Ex Kiwiforces

Well folks it looks like the bloody drongos in power have cocked up again in defence procurement this time with the Airforce’s new light helicopters.
From what i seen from Janes Defence Navy edition today at work and it appears the little birds won’t be land on the ships in rough sea’s except when its clam, don’t have a folding rotor head , the Airforce wanted 8 but are getting 5 and the tender is ass about face again like the last helicopter buy

Quoted from Jane’s Navy International

“At this stage it is unclear whether the aircraft will be equipped with a folding rotor head to allow shipboard stowage. It is understood, however, from industry sources that they will not feature a deck lock, which would limit the usefulness of the A109s to the Royal New Zealand Navy (RNZN) as the latter might wish to substitute them occasionally for its Seasprite helicopters or operate them from offshore patrol vessels.”

“Industry sources have expressed surprise that only five A109s are to be purchased by the RNZAF. Given the original stated requirement for eight aircraft, some in the industry feel that even if five helicopters can provide the number of hours required, with such a diverse range of duties the air force may find itself ‘short of tail numbers’ to fulfil all demands.”
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November 8, 2007 12:17am
neontiger

And you would be a model New Zealander wouldn’t you Mr D4J.
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November 8, 2007 1:11am
Kimble

“First thing: Do you find “reward” a loaded word? If you do, I won’t use it.”

Not a loaded word. Capitalism doesnt value anything either. People do that, not the process. People value things differently, capitalism is about the freedom to do just that.

“Second thing: What about buying no CD at all?”

Exactly, what about it? What about all those other options? You can buy the CD or not buy the CD, but you cant do both. How do you decide which to do?

“How is the decision made that time spent is cost?”

Look at the word you used there. How is it that time SPENT is a cost? Spent?

“There is no such thing as a free lunch” merely points out the existence of opportunity cost. Or more accurately, its purpose is to lead you to that discovery.

Time spent doing one thing is time not spent doing another. The cost of doing one thing is the other thing foregone.

“Isn’t doing things with your time simply living?” But HOW do you spend your life? Making choices is part of life. If you want A and B, and you can have A and B, you will have A and B. But what if you can only have A or B?

The concept of Opportunity Cost doesn’t prescribe a solution, it merely illustrates the problem. Opportunity cost is a universal truth. Perception has nothing to do with it. Either you perceive the truth of the concept, or you are misinterpreting it.

Try and think of a single example involving a choice, that does not have an opportunity cost.

Robyn it seems you are getting stuck on certain words. Money. Cost. Free rider. You attach negative connotations to all these words.
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November 8, 2007 2:06am
Thrash Cardiom

Sometimes I wonder if those who are fully immersed in the “There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch” are those who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
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November 8, 2007 5:19am
dad4justice

I went to have a lunch with roger nome and I found out he was a few sandwich’s short of a picnic .
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November 8, 2007 6:28am
Pascal

Robyn it seems you are getting stuck on certain words. Money. Cost. Free rider. You attach negative connotations to all these words.

That is it indeed, Kimble. Robyn, you do seem to be attaching a negative connotation to those terms when they are simply objects of measurement and not meaningful beyond that.

In a simpler sense.

You could choose to make that lunch. However, by taking the time to make that lunch you have chosen not to spend that time playing with kids at the orphanage or helping out at a rest home or doing volunteer work in a hospital.

Choosing one over the other does not denigrate or devalue either, but everything we do turns out to be a choice amongst multitudes of options. By forgoing the opportunity to do all those other things at that moment we are losing the chance to complete them, thus it becomes a cost to us. Even if it is not in a material or financial sense.
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November 8, 2007 7:02am
llew

No ttrue. It is as I said, an expression of agreement with your own damn sentiments you moron. You said you wouldn’t homeschool (your kids one has to assume) because you considered yourself incompetent, and I merely agreed with that opinion. Totally different circumstances to an unprovoked attack from someone who hitherto had had nothing to say on the issue under discussion you silly spiteful desperate little boy. Are you a teacher?

Just a little bemused you used my firstname Russell.

Doesn’t matter though, right back at ya.
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November 8, 2007 8:11am
llew

Hey Redbaiter – seeing as I’m a moron, please explain how you comprehended this:

My problem with home schooling would be that it would very much depend on the competence of the person doing the schooling.

Actually, that’s my problem with school schooling too

as this:

You said you wouldn’t homeschool (your kids one has to assume) because you considered yourself incompetent,

That on purpose, to have a dig? Or genuine incomprehension?
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November 8, 2007 8:18am
Lance

I vote that this has been the worst thread-jacked, off topic, personally abusive, derisive, divisive and screw up thread ever.
Lots of bandwidth noise.

As far a Fiji goes (remember the actual topic anyone?). I would rather go to Raro. Much nicer and no low calibre men with high calibre rifles.
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November 8, 2007 10:13am
llew

As far a Fiji goes (remember the actual topic anyone?)

Yes. General Debate 07 November – remember?
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November 8, 2007 10:18am
Kimble

“Sometimes I wonder if those who are fully immersed in the “There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch” are those who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.”

Anti-economist twaddle.
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November 8, 2007 2:44pm
Thrash Cardiom

Bollocks. Making and giving the lunch to someone may be of more value to me than the cost. They get a free lunch and I get that value thus negating the cost.
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November 8, 2007 4:12pm

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