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October 25, 2007 7:56am by David Farrar

General Debate 25 October 2007

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SPC

On house prices.

UK Average Cost: £210,578
Detached: £323,332
Semi-detached: £189,617
Terraced: £168,134
Flat: £196,505

It’s $354,000 in London

In USA the average sales price in September 2007 dropping 4.2% from a year earlier to $211,700 (£103,000).

That would mean houses in the USA are worth way less than in New Zealand – our average is about NZ$350,000 (our dollar buys 75 cents US) -even though they have higher incomes.

It would seem then that our currency os overvalued because of inflows of short term money after our higher interest rates and also the speculation on residential property because of the high domestic tax on interest income is resulting in rising domestic property values.

Yet nothing is done about this. Is this because the government and oppositiion are both too bigoted to listen? Or is this because, Nationa’s supporters include a lot of landlords and farmers don’t mind the high dollar as it helps push up the worth of their farm in foreign money (for when they retire)? Now what’s Labour’s excuse, do they have any?
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October 25, 2007 4:29pm
SPC

It’s 354,000 pounds in London.
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October 25, 2007 4:30pm
Brownie

Sams reasoning that we can’t afford to have the specialists there (despite another massive surplus) as well as his offhand comment that the patients will just have to travel from now on (despite the fact we live in an apparently First World country that has increased it’s spending on health by almost 4 billion over the last 7 years) are the points that I was contending with – not the taxes. If Sams reasoning is flawed IMHO, that leaves his whole point open to criticism. It should not be unreasonable to assume a certain level of care is maintained, especially one that recieved over $10b in public money last financial year.

You still haven’t given me a different/better system for judging performance other than public opinion and experience. I appreciate what you are saying re: 0 taxes, perfect transport etc. Sure, that would be great!

However I don’t think it is too much for us to expect a kid with cancer in Wellington to be able to be treated there. If the fact that the last specialist oncologist felt she had to leave due to stress and overwork, in the full knowledge that it would leave Capital Health without such a specialist, is not an indictment on a system that is unsatisfactory and under pressure, then there are real problems at the government and managerial levels in our health system.

SPC, are you saying that the many people out there who are dissatified with the current system are not reasonable? Are you saying that because a person may have experience of the system precludes them from commenting on the basis that any bad experience may colour their view? That is not democracy, SPC.
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October 25, 2007 4:37pm
SPC

If you want to construct a strawman to debate with brownie – debate with it. Just don’t expect me to.

And pleae note democracy itself only reflects the collective, not the subjective. No matter how many individuals have personal experiences of wanting another government elected – they remain stuck with the one the majority chose.
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October 25, 2007 4:40pm
barry

Fighterpillot – people who are left wing (actually probably more like socialist/collective leaning) to the extent of trying to run my life should be abused.
They are abusing me when they try to interfere. When they tell me that I am a criminal for smacking my kid, then I regard that as abuse.

Now – as for cutting taxes – no problem. Its like the local council – they could easily cut costs – by heaps. They could start by stopping all expenditure on anything other than sewerge, water (incluing waster water) planning and roads. There is really no basis for thinking that we HAVE TO HAVE a library, or sponsored orchestra, subsidised buses, mown parks, animal care, civil defence, gardens, theatres, environental health,organic centes, etc, etc, etc. Yes, theyre all very nice to have, but why should the rate payers be paying for a library when quite frankly they are redundant – I can find everything that I want on the internet. Absolutely not arguement for the ratepayer to support any sporting code or arts activity or similar.
Yes – I know they are all ver nice, but there is no basis to expect ALL rate payers to pay.
Here in Hamilton I have to pay in my rates for town buses that are organised by Environment waikato – and both city council and EW subsidze them. I’d need to get a bloody taxy across the country side to ever catch one.

Its this sort of action that needs to be taken to concentrate the ratepayers minds onto what they really want.

Same for government. here are half a dozen government departments that need to go. The public service can be cut back to what it was before 1999. Are you aware of how much its costing the IRD to administer Working for Families ??? its costing zillions. Just do what the germans do – cut taxes for families – you dont need a complicated system to run it. You get a tax rate based on number of children – its not taken from you and then given back when you apply for it later.

simple
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October 25, 2007 4:42pm
SPC

And when the “last” specialist resigned she did so with months of notice – there were already efforts to replace the earlier two.
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October 25, 2007 4:42pm
Brownie

big·ot·ed /ˈbɪgətɪd/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[big-uh-tid] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own.

Fair call on the getting over oneself. I’ll try as well. Perhaps bigoted was a little strong.
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October 25, 2007 4:45pm
SPC

barry identify an area without facilities provided by their council and I will show you an area whcih has low property values because of it. People move to areas with good community facilites etc.
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October 25, 2007 4:45pm
Brownie

And why have they not filled the vancancy when the Hon. Pete Hodgson is on record as having said that this country puts out 40% more qualified doctors than six years ago? Could it be that the funds are not there to pay them?
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October 25, 2007 4:49pm
FighterPilott

I just got that children can go south to CHC at the moment, but replacements are being sought – so it seems there is the money, but it’s a highly competitive market. If someone has just left, unless their income was allocated elsewhere then there will be funding for the position so it’s not about the money – it’s (a guess here) a specialist position and a difficult one to fill at that. There’s nothing offhanded in that! Here’s hoping the vacancies can be filled ASAP.

The problem with basing anything on perceptions is that it takes one bad case to wipe out the good work of hundreds. As an example, how many stories about the heroic things social workers do in NZ are told, as contrasted to the few horror stiores? And what is the common perception of CYF, yet when you look into it, the work they do is nothing short of heroic in many (if not most) cases.
As for a measure – operations, respnse times, percentage of finances on operational versus managerial spending, and so on – I guess that doesn’t sound good – it’s pretty much tuning people into numbers, but at the highest level, a Government or Minister can’t spend their time assessing each individual case – that’s simply micro-managing at it’s worst. They therefore must base it on other measures as mentioned (once again, those are guesses, but I don’t imagine everyone gets a survey with which the govt scores the Health system). It’s the DHBs and managerial staff at the hospital/clinic level that must take responsibility for individual cases – if the capital is a problem then every case will be unsatisfactory and these results will flow up to the higher levels. What I’m saying is that all we hear is the bad stories, and not the good – so we can’t know what the overall state of the Health system is, and we certainly can’t base it upon our personal experiences.
This problem in Wellington-it doesn’t mean the whole system is flawed.
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October 25, 2007 4:52pm
SPC

Most graduates are in Oz within a few years of graduating. We get a lot from the UK because they have been training more than they need.

The question is (how to keep more here and the answer is debt writeoff if they stay and debt writeoff if they come back) why our doctors who become specialists in Oz don’t want to come back – it’s not just a matter of higher pay in Oz but the problem of not wanting to work in a system where they are under work pressure because of a shortage of staff. Once we show a committment to retaining staff via debt writeoff maybe that will change.
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October 25, 2007 4:53pm
Brownie

Fuel to the fire.

Check it out, FP.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4250338a11.html
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October 25, 2007 4:54pm
SPC

Midland Health is more likely to find care from Kiwi doctors for them in Oz than Canterbury.
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October 25, 2007 4:58pm
FighterPilott

Yup Barry, you have pretty much summed it up. A ‘socialist/collective’ leaning person will say that these services are of benefit to society as a whole, and that it is the job of society as a whole to provide them.

You can pick any specific thing, and say it’s no use to you, but others will have a different view.

Say I install a septic tank at my house – so why am I paying rates for this seweage service you think is so important?? I can walk to work, so you can pay for your own roads too… You can see where this is going.

In short, everything you seem to not want to pay for is what most people will want, but perhaps wish they didn’t have to pay for – most people accept it. I don’t use many governmental services, but given my views, I don’t begrudge them being provided to those that need them. Tax me more, if it’s for a good cause!
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October 25, 2007 4:59pm
Brownie

I 100% agree with you (hey, this bi-partisan suit looks good!) however whats wrong with expected a certain service level to be maintined. Why do we always hear these stories of woe? Surely one needs to agree that we could do better.

If we put the question “do you think the health system is better today than 7 years ago” out to the blogging community – even to the wider public, what do you think the results would be?

If the system is not taking adequate care of those that we value the most – our children – then that is a crying shame for a country that used to pride itself on its health service.
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October 25, 2007 5:01pm
barry

SPC – are you finding house prices a bit high of late? want to know a way to get them down?

Those areas where they want these services will set up their own voluntary system – just like we are seeing with gated communities. There is a new area in Chch where they dont want buses and they are taking the council on over it.

Rates are getting crazy. My wife has an inherited batch on the coast around Awakino. It is used for about 5 weeks every year. Floor size is about 15 square metres. Own septic tank. No library, no parks, no street lights, in fact bugger all.

Annual rates $2200. We are going to get the water disconnected and put a tank in. Then we will look at a self contained electrical system (probably batteries with an inverter – fixed power charges are several hundred each year)
Rates – over $2200 pa.

We could stay at the bloddy hilton for a couple of weeks for the money it costs
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October 25, 2007 5:07pm
Rex Widerstrom

Apropos of nothing that has gone before on this thread…

What the hell is it with Labo(u)r governments and the police?! It used to be that it was right wing governments who used the willing coppers as tools to smash (sometimes literally) unions etc.

Now we’ve come full circle and left wing governments tickle the bellies of mewling corrupt police forces with laws like those just introduced in NSW that will allow the police to spy on citizens for five days without any form of warrant. And when they do get a warrant it’ll last 90 days instead of the present 21.

Perhaps the most chilling part of this is the comment of NSW’s Attorney General:

Yesterday the Attorney-General, John Hatzistergos, referred to the use of isotopes.

“Apparently, with the technology now, you can have isotopes sprayed on the person of someone and, under this legislation, you’re able to have that authorised for tracking purposes,” Mr Hatzistergos said.

No, this isn’t some Tom Cruise movie. This is just across the ditch from NZ. Anyone want to take a wager on how long it will be before Labour in NZ try the same sort of thing?

The scary thing is, I wouldn’t take a wager against National (or any other party in power) resisting the temptation. Less likely, perhaps, but by no means impossible.
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October 25, 2007 5:09pm
SPC

barry

Everyone has their own way of increasing the value of their property.

For most it’s having community services, for some it’s not having buses because this keeps the “other people out and their children in”, for some it’s locating it by a beach.

The only problem with ones property doubling in value in 3 years is the rates bill that follows. I’ll have to live with it.
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October 25, 2007 5:17pm
tim barclay

Fighterpilot it was put forward as a reason Mallard is under so much stress. Mallard could have least made a statement saying he is not using that as an excuse for his behavior. As I said using the death of close relatives is a coward’s way out, Mallard could have cleared that up but has not.
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October 25, 2007 5:22pm
SPC

So he is a coward if he mentions it AND a coward if he does not?

The reality of the matter. is he is not sure why he went off, and probably is unable to say whether it played any part in why he did. If he was not wanting to make excuses for what he did, the most reasonable thing to do, is not to mention it.
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October 25, 2007 5:28pm
Lee C

‘Good on yer Tau, the truth will come out about that bastard – Don’
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October 25, 2007 6:05pm
milo

What amazes me is that the Prime Minister is still trying to suggest that Tau Henare is somehow also at fault ! Weird.

And the speaker says she can’t do anything because it it outside her jurisdiction. But I thought her jurisdiction was all of the grounds of parliament ?

And will the priveleges committee do anything, or will it just confirm that it is a toothless tool of the government of the day ?
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October 25, 2007 6:28pm
hinamanu

“The only problem with ones property doubling in value in 3 years is the rates bill that follows. I’ll have to live with it.”

Never being a property owner I’m a little vague abouyt this, but are you saying when your property value goes up your rates go up ??
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October 25, 2007 6:47pm
side show bob

You have got it in one hinamanu.

There are now many places in NZ with older type houses on the coast. These were built by mostly now retired people as holiday homes. But sadly a lot of elderly are been forced out by huge rate increases as seaside property is a hot saler at the moment. Many local councils treat these people as no more then cash cows as the land is now worth heaps. As I’m a dairy farmer I can tell you that our local council is rubbing their hands and counting on a windfall of extra cash this year as dairy land is highly sort after due to a higher payout. So when the Liarbore government says no tax increases, please don’t ever ever believe the bastards.
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October 25, 2007 7:20pm
hinamanu

‘You have got it in one hinamanu. ‘

By all accounts then, if Kiwis can’t afford rates because of the ironic rising value of their properties, don’t you think it is fair to see foreigners buying up what Kiwi’s can’t afford.

Aren’t the projections from that scenario just obvious.

In fact, very, very frightening.
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October 25, 2007 7:30pm
side show bob

Whether I think it is fair or not doesn’t really matter hinamanu , I don’t make the rules, this government does. You are quite correct about the projections being obvious it’s happening now. I quess many of us are doomed to be second class citizens in our own country. Their are no easy answers but councils have to be regined in as some are looking at rates increases over 10% a per year, year after year and this government is more then happy to stand by and let it happen.
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October 25, 2007 7:55pm
hinamanu

when a council forbade grannies from sharing home baking at their weekly meetings and no one said any thing what are we to expect but more
facism.
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October 25, 2007 8:00pm
side show bob

I guess it boils down to how much the people will take. Until ordinary kiwis finally tell officials, whether local or national, to go fuck themselves, things will only get worst. Kiwis must one day find the courage to challenge the government not to meakly bend over and take it up the arse.
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October 25, 2007 8:22pm
hinamanu

Guess we see the govts real agenda of legalising homosexuality

politicians are anal.

On that note, can’t believe I didn’t get a bollocking for my anti political gay bashing on here,,

though I did say I got nothing against social gays

But if I was a political gay I wouldn’t have liked my horrible, terrible,
uncouth comments one little bit,,

no I wouldn’t.
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October 25, 2007 8:29pm
ZenTiger

Rates don’t necessarily go up when your house value goes up. They will effectively increase only if your house/land value increases faster than the average values in your immediate area. This is because all of the re-valuations are conducted by the Council about the same time, and rates benchmarked against them.

However, a real issue for pensioners is that the increase in rates every year can be above inflation, and their property values increase generally as the areas they live in become more valuable.

Pensioners are often asset rich, but cash poor. Suddenly, they need to sell their house to afford the rates…
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October 25, 2007 8:32pm
hinamanu

“Pensioners are often asset rich, but cash poor. Suddenly, they need to sell their house to afford the rates…”

… to buy a house in an affordable area until that too becomes a valuable area, and so the vicious cycle constricts like a python,,

Heyy,, it happened to Ponsonby, maybe even Fairfield, and the sad thugs won’t have their own street to lord over any more,,

Sounds like a social lesson there,,,,,,
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October 25, 2007 8:38pm
krazykiwi

Kiwis must one day find the courage to challenge the government not to meakly bend over and take it up the arse.

SSB.. you’re blessed with such a delicate turn of phrase !
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October 25, 2007 8:42pm
krazykiwi

Bary said:

you dont need a complicated system to run it. You get a tax rate based on number of children – its not taken from you and then given back when you apply for it later.

ah but barry, “s/he who has the gold makes the rules”. by ensuring maximum sums of money are siphoned out of NZers pockets the Govt is positioned to dish it out where THEY need it most. It has nothing to do with actual need at all. But it has everything to do with maintaining their grip on POWER – that lovely word that politicians of all colours go to sleep chanting quietly.
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October 25, 2007 8:57pm
SPC

hinamanu and zen tiger

If my valuation goes up 100% and that of the area is averaging 50-66% depending on the type of property – my rates will go up. I thought of objecting, but … na … .

One just has to see it as not real wealth – because one still must live somewhere.

It’s not that tough on the oldies – they can easily borrow against their house and or downsize into a town house etc.
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October 25, 2007 9:46pm
SPC

That said I do favour ending GST on rates (and power and food so people can more easily afford the necessities). Put up GST on the discretionary stuff to 20% to cover the cost of this.
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October 25, 2007 9:48pm
hinamanu

“Put up GST on the discretionary stuff to 20% to cover the cost of this.”

GST is obsolete and the first party that says so wins,,, everything!
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October 25, 2007 9:54pm
SPC

I want crims to pay 20% GST on their wide screen TV’s etc.
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October 25, 2007 10:05pm
SPC

And of course all those who do cash jobs – but who are not real crims because they only streal of IRD and leave the tax burden higher on others.
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October 25, 2007 10:07pm
SPC

“steal off us”
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October 25, 2007 10:08pm
krazykiwi

rex, re isotopes sprayed OMG that is very scary!! Coming soon to a free society near you: sprayed trackable isotopes, streetside retinal scanners, networked CCTV facial recognitian systems. perhaps it’ll install cameras in my house now… avoid the legislated rush.
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October 25, 2007 10:14pm
hinamanu

“I want crims to pay 20% GST on their wide screen TV’s etc.”

govt is scrapping wide screens as inefficient power guzzlers so that argument is obsolete.

So is GST
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October 25, 2007 10:14pm
SPC

Or crims and those not declaring their income (cash jobs) buying new cars etc GST free (the only tax on the income they now pay). It should be 20%.
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October 25, 2007 10:18pm
Buggerlugs

Shit. So all those flat screen TVs in the prisons will be surplus to requirements. Does Corrections purchasing department have a TradeMe alias?
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October 25, 2007 10:57pm
hinamanu

TUI AD to hunters

Ducks can’t defend themselves,, yeah right.
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October 25, 2007 11:56pm
Pascal

SPC: barry identify an area without facilities provided by their council and I will show you an area whcih has low property values because of it. People move to areas with good community facilites etc.

Up Mountain View drive in the Waitakeres? That whole area pays for a large number of council services when they do not even have streetlights. And yet property values are fairly decent.
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October 26, 2007 9:26am
Pascal

How amusing.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10472220

Cullen seems to be hinting that tax cuts within the election year’s budget will not be inflationary.

And National turns around and … oh it’s just too funny. Roll on the Election Year Lolly Scramble as Labour purchases their second election in a row!
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October 26, 2007 10:03am
krazykiwi

Cullen seems to be hinting that tax cuts within the election year’s budget will not be inflationary.

Time to dig out the 100’s of quotes where he vehemently claimed otherwise.
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October 26, 2007 10:08am
hinamanu

“The insinuation that African governments are more corrupt simply because they are black sickens me, in addition to the insinuation that government run by anyone but blacks would be more corrupt than government run by caucasians.”

On the face of this argument I understand your rascist concerns, but,
consider Sth Africa and Zimbabwe. Both nations trasferred to black control and horrendously managed.

Naturally, Zimbabwe is simply scrap metal.

In Sth Africa’s case white politicians needed to be retained to organise business and oversee procedures. Whites understand economics which is a reality to any thriving nation.

For some strange reason though that simply is not the case here

Go figure.
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October 26, 2007 8:43pm
SPC

Now it’s National warning everyone of the consequences of tax cuts (rising interest rates and an overvalued dollar).

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10472220

National’s finance spokesman Bill English said huge growth in government spending had created significant inflationary pressure, which Dr Cullen was denying.

He said Dr Cullen’s stance appeared to be laying the ground for an “election year lolly scramble” that would further fuel inflation.

National was heeding Dr Bollard’s warning, but Mr English would not commit the party to a fiscally neutral spending programme.

Now English is the new Cullen. The burdens of being the one in waiting to be the new Mr Responsible. The host who says when, just as the party is warming up.

He’s right and the answer lies in cutting tax levels on all interest income (either by allowing deduction of CPI OR by establishing a low flat rate of tax on interest income at say 20%) and turning tax cuts into dividends and transferring them into long term savings accounts – with NO tax on interest income. The money becomes ours, it grows and it’s not inflationary in the short term.
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October 26, 2007 11:41pm
stan

Man dies from being tasered:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071025.wtaser1026/BNStory/National/home
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October 27, 2007 10:08pm

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