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October 18, 2006 11:10am by David Farrar

From a artistic reader!

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Mark

One of the above is a ruthless dictator who suppresses freedom of speech and rigs elections. The other is Robert Mugabe.
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October 18, 2006 11:33am
Darren

Anyone seen Emerson’s cartoon in the Herald today?
The pig with its snout in the trough looks suspiciously like Dear Leader.
It has that distinctive hairstyle.
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October 18, 2006 11:34am
sonic

Must remember this thread next time one of you moans about Bush being compared to Hitler.
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October 18, 2006 11:46am
Faust

That’s not going to get you re-elected.
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October 18, 2006 11:49am
Ed Snack

Ah Sonic, so you think Robert Mugabe is comparable to Hitler ? Careful the Race Relations office doesn’t hear you suggest that.
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October 18, 2006 12:07pm
sonic

No Ed I do not, nasty little dictator certainly but no Hitler.
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October 18, 2006 12:11pm
ross

“Must remember this thread next time one of you moans about Bush being compared to Hitler”.

Come on, Sonic, if you carry on like that, you’ll simply confirm what is already suspected by many on the Right, that the Left doesn’t have a sense of humour. If National can make Gerry Brownlee spokesperson for Maori Affairs, it proves what a wonderful sense of humour the Tories have.
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October 18, 2006 12:12pm
MikeE

Just got mentioned in parliament
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October 18, 2006 12:13pm
Kent

@ Mark: Helen Clark “rigs elections”

That’s a big call.
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October 18, 2006 1:01pm
David C

I just wish that the definitive article was AN. I just hate grammatical muck ups.

Oh and I think this blog is populated by rednecks.

That is all.
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October 18, 2006 1:06pm
Will

David C, I wish you knew the difference between indefinite (a/an) and definite articles (the).

I just hate semantic muck ups.
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October 18, 2006 1:14pm
burt

There are a few chaps giving out Bananas in Parliament grounds (today is now banana republic day, thanks Helen!). I gave them a donation to help them with their up comming sedition charges.
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October 18, 2006 1:20pm
lyndon

FYI, the banana people are the liberatarianz
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October 18, 2006 2:09pm
TomS

And so on it goes, as the David “just call me Joseph Goebbels” Farrar whips up his brownshirts for another round of red hating hysteria.

Honestly Farrar, grow up!
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October 18, 2006 2:11pm
David Farrar

Oh daer poor little TomS is upset. Tell mw Tom – if this was a National Govt ramming retrospective legislation through the House under urgency, which personally protects a National PM from a lawsuit – would you be so supportive about it?
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October 18, 2006 2:28pm
sonic

Oh Hypotheticals, my favourite game!

Mind If I join in?

Lets imagine a secret communist group had been secretly funding pamphlets attacking the National party and using their brainwashed kids to engage in push polling during an election.

Furthermore it turns out that, after denying it at first, that Helen Clark had met with these evil communists to discuss their campain, as had a number of other Labour MPs.

Then it gets revealed that this group had hired private detectives to follow around Don Brash’s wife to see if she was having a gay affair.

Question, would David and his chums still be defending their “rights”?
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October 18, 2006 2:43pm
David Farrar

Sonic – I have loudly and publicly slammed the Brethren for their use of private detectives, have publicly pressued National to cease all further communications with them because of that and condemned their behaviour.

Unlike you, I try to be consistent.
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October 18, 2006 2:49pm
sonic

Nicely done David, your post sounds good until we notice that it only refers to the Private eye part, not the pamphlets or push polling.
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October 18, 2006 3:18pm
David Farrar

The push polling is an unproven allegation. I can say with some certainity that the EB were not involved in polling at a national level. Maybe someone locally got anthusiastic.

As for the pamphlets I have for over a year been critical of the fact the EB were secretive about it. I have said many times they should have annoucned what they were doing.
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October 18, 2006 3:31pm
sonic

Ah well ancient history now..

much like the pledge card.
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October 18, 2006 3:33pm
Colonel Redl

Faust = DPF
Mephistopheles = Sonic

Now this is getting good.
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October 18, 2006 3:42pm
Paul Marsden

…much like Labour, Sonic.
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October 18, 2006 3:43pm
baxter

Hypothetical Sonic?…Most of your day-dreaming has indeed occurred. The Commies being the teachers and other trade-union fellow travellors.
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October 18, 2006 4:00pm
candida

I am not sure who would feel more offended by being compared to the other – Mugabe or Helen
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October 18, 2006 4:09pm
sonic

So all teachers are “commies” then Baxter.

Tell me how are things back in 1951, all well?
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October 18, 2006 4:25pm
phillip john

testing
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October 18, 2006 4:29pm
phillip john

hey baxter why dont you read this?

Howells, J. (2002) “ The Political Ideologies of New Zealand Trade Union Officers: the Demise of the Far Left?” New Zealand Journal of Industrial Relations. 27(2)pp.233-243. Dunedin FIRRE (NZ).

It find that nobody in the trade union movement identify as far left any more- it’s about 50% centre left and 50% centre as I remember.
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October 18, 2006 4:31pm
phillip john

David:

if this was a National Govt ramming retrospective legislation through the House under urgency, which personally protects a National PM from a lawsuit – would you be so supportive about it?

Well, while it wasn’t protecting anyone in National the Employment Contracts Act in 1991 was rammed through using similar tactics – i.e. “During the parliamentary debate about the employment contacts bill, National was “unable” to make the bill available to opposition MP’s for them to read” (Danin 1998: 23).

Conceived and ratified within a closed system, the ECA was an elitist piece of legislation that lacked popular mandate. Of those responding to a survey carried out on the eve of the passing of the legislation 46 per cent opposed the Act, 29 per cent supported it and 24 per cent were unsure (Cregan, C. et al 1996: 761).
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October 18, 2006 4:40pm
Andrew Bannister

The Commies being the teachers and other trade-union fellow travellors.(sic)

I am pretty sure those with right-wing tendencies are free to become teachers. I wonder why they don’t?
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October 18, 2006 4:50pm
sonic

They scare the kids with their ranting and raving about “Helen KKKlark”?
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October 18, 2006 5:03pm
exocet

Actually mindless unthinking robots that are programmed to defend dear leader are scarier.
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October 18, 2006 5:08pm
David Farrar

PJ – the ECB was referred to a select committee, and the public had the opportunity to make submissions on it – which many of them did.
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October 18, 2006 5:11pm
phillip john

“PJ – the ECB was referred to a select committee, and the public had the opportunity to make submissions on it – which many of them did.”

Yes David, over the christmas hollidays as I recall(when parliament wasn’t sitting). The ECA Bill was introduced to the House on December the 19th 1990 just before parliament’s Christmas holiday break, and became law on the 15th of May 1991.

A January 1991 CTU poll found that the public had little awareness or understanding of the ECA. One month before it was introduced, the Employment Contracts Bill still wasn’t available for interested parties to read (Danin, 1997: 96). As such any resistance to the ECA had to be mounted against an invisible enemy.
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October 18, 2006 5:30pm
David Farrar

So it was passed over a period of five months and you compare it to a bill passed in 24 hours.

Your other comparison is the ECB was not available 30 days before it was introduced while this bill was not available to the public even 30 minutes before it was introduced.

You have helped shown the gulf between the two scenarios.
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October 18, 2006 6:17pm
phillip john

Fair call David. I still think that 30 days isn’t long enough to allow full consideration of a piece of legislation as complex as the ECA was, certainly not time to get a decent protest movement together – but this was no doubt National’s intention. I also pointed out that the bill was un-popular with the public, though that didn’t stop it.

At least with MMP if a bill is going to be rammed through it has to get the ascent of more than a couple of cabinet ministers in a minority government (i.e. Bolger and Birch ).

Both of our scenarios show up the short-falls of our style of unicameral government. One legislative layer makes it too easy for an elite clique to hold too much power. This criticism was made by Geoff Palmer’s book unbridled power in 1979 and still we continue with it. A change is overdue I reckon.
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October 18, 2006 6:43pm
Sinner

@ Mark: Helen Clark “rigs elections”

That’s a big call.

Indeed it is a big call: and this call has been made by the chief electoral office, the auditor general (several times), the solicitor-general, the Wellington CID (even though higher-ups stopped prosecution), Margaret Pope, Mike Moore…

The ECB – which was really a rather mild, compromised reform to a highly socialist practce – was at the time seen as best practice worldwide! These days even the horrible old version of the ECB would be seen as a quaint, overregulated, cetralised, union-entrenching mess.

Thankfully Don has promosed to fix this as one of the first things he does – and frankly if this, the election finding, maorimander, corruption inquiry – not to mention school and hospital choice, beneficiary responsibility, student load changes are all introduced in the first 24 hours of Parliamentary time and pushed through under urgency

then that would be an excellent outcome for NZ
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October 18, 2006 7:59pm
Rumpole

PJ

Not very often I can agree with you so 24hours cannot be enough time to consider such controversial unconstitutional legislation that has little or no precedent. This will bite Labour and probably even hopefully keep them off the treasury benches for a decade whilst new blood with integrity replace the current collection of total scumbags. Whilst the precedent is set for a National administration to reverse this legislation and perhaps add sufficient teeth to bankrupt the cabinet and party I doubt Don Brash would stoop this low.
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October 18, 2006 10:19pm
Rumpole

PJ

Not very often I can agree with you so 24hours cannot be enough time to consider such controversial unconstitutional legislation that has little or no precedent. This will bite Labour and probably even hopefully keep them off the treasury benches for a decade whilst new blood with integrity replace the current collection of total scumbags. Whilst the precedent is set for a National administration to reverse this legislation and perhaps add sufficient teeth to bankrupt the cabinet and party I doubt Don Brash would stoop this low.
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October 18, 2006 10:21pm
pdq

Actually that poster is about right. Once again we see litigation defeated by slight of hand. Labour are a bunch of corrupt, thieving and dishonest assholes.
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October 18, 2006 11:41pm
moe

Just one thing Phillip John:

“A January 1991 CTU poll found that the public had little awareness or understanding of the ECA.”

A CTU poll????? You really think the Council Of Trade Unions would find otherwise? Way to pick an unbiased source.
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October 19, 2006 8:48am

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