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August 4, 2006 1:28pm by David Farrar

Middle East Analogy

G-Man has an analogy for the current Middle East situation, expressed as a bar fight.

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sonic

Given Israel’s military power (bought and paid for by the worlds last superpower) this is the stupidest, dumbest parable I’ve ever heard.

Poor little Israel with it’s fleets of F16’s, it’s Merkava tanks and it’s nuclear weapons against the civilian population of South Lebanon.

A better analogy might be that Israel thinks someone in bar is looking at them in a funny way and proceeds to slaughter everyone inside, burn down the entire town the bar is located in and then ask for sympathy.
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August 4, 2006 2:08pm
Red

it’s pretty much spot on except rather than “clipping” Lebanon, Israel drives a knife straight through her “southern” regions, the tip of the knife barley touches Hezbollah… Then Israel blames Lebanon for getting in the way even though she had no where else to go and wasn’t able to stand up to her extremely violent cousin Hezbollah

(sorry for the cross post got the wrong post, strange)
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August 4, 2006 2:15pm
anonny a nonny non

I’d say it more likely went like this……

Hamas and Hizbollah are drinking with their brothers Gaza Lebanon and the west bank.

As per usual around 5pm Israel wanders in acting like he owns the place. His mate the bouncer, US greets him with a firm handshake.

Israel being a big guy wanders over to the brothers, like most nights, and demands Gaza and West Bank buy him a drink. They both protest a little but after a clip round the ears, cough up for a round while US smirks in the corner and the rest of the staff turn their heads away.

Hizbollah and HAmas began to get really pissed off with the fact that this was what happened almost every night and decided to confront Israel.

Hamas and Hizbollah aproach Israel in a fit of rage, although not very well directed and Israel easily fights them off. They both run back towards their brothers and cower in the corner. Israel highly pissed off begins to complain to the staff while the brothers hide in the corner and try to get the attention of the staff.

The staff genrally try to stay out of the way not wanting to get involved. Suddenly US throws a M16 to Israel and turns his back.

Israel opens fire shooting at everything in the direction of the brothers.

He finishes the clip and turns to the brothers now writhing on the floor in pain and says “Don’t forget, this is my bar!” He finishes his beer orders a shot and says to the bar tender “put it on their tab”
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August 4, 2006 2:18pm
llew

OK – because I really AM ignorant (I’ll get over it by monday though) can someone tell me why it is that those of a right leaning political persuasion seem to support anything Israel do, while those of a left leaning political persuasion condemn them?
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August 4, 2006 2:19pm
llew

So who do the bartender & staff represent?
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August 4, 2006 2:22pm
nonny

Staff are the security council.

Dunno, my first go at writing anything like that….. Plenty to iron out 😛
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August 4, 2006 2:25pm
llew

Can we work in underage drinkers?
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August 4, 2006 2:31pm
llew

And wasn’t the guy in a gunshop with his knife? Not a bar? Silly analogy.
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August 4, 2006 2:35pm
brian_smaller

Lebabnon may be the battlefield but this war is Israel (6.2 million people of whom about 1.2 million are Arabs of various religions) against the entire Arab world supplemented by 70 million Iranians and who knows how many other tens of millions of Indonesians, Khazaks etc etc. Syria alone has a standing army of over half a million men. Israel is heavily outnumbered in men and materials to the tune of something like 40-50 to 1.
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August 4, 2006 2:45pm
anonny

Well maybe they should try and be nicer then instead of pissing people off!
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August 4, 2006 2:47pm
anonny

Well maybe they should try and be nicer then instead of pissing people off!

Israel has Nukes BTW

and a much more modernised army that most.

Oh yeah and their the Yanks best mates
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August 4, 2006 2:49pm
sonic

Really Brian?

Out of interest how many of those arab “hordes” you seem so interested in reside in countries that are allies of the USA?

How many arab armies are fighting against the IDF again?
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August 4, 2006 2:49pm
stephen

“why it is that those of a right leaning political persuasion seem to support anything Israel do, while those of a left leaning political persuasion condemn them?”

My guess is that lefties have a soft spot for the underdog, while righties applaud order. Then there are wider political reasons.

Seen in a Marxist light, Israel is the last gasp of 19th century nationalism and colonisation — poor old Jews got to the nation-state party last, lucky old New Zealand stuck it to the natives before it became unacceptable. So the lefties are against it.

Israel is mostly democratic, friendly to the West and of course non-Muslim. So the righties are for it.

Since I’m a Jewish lefty I just sit and cry, mostly. Hezbollah are evil bastards who deserve to be obliterated; Israel are far too careless in the obliteration process and basically their own worst enemy. A plague on everyone’s house. Now excuse me while I get more tissues.
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August 4, 2006 2:49pm
gman

You can always ignore everything that follwos whenever you read the phrase:” Seen in a Marxist light…”

I want to stress here–I want hizbollah out as much for the sake of Lebanon as Israel.
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August 4, 2006 2:53pm
annonny

Just thought I’d mention I’m not a fan of anyone that likews to start or engage in Bar fights.

Killing anyone is fucked up, but I can understand why hezbolah get support.
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August 4, 2006 2:53pm
Danyl Mclauchlan

I want to stress here–I want hizbollah out as much for the sake of Lebanon as Israel.

Well then it’s a pity that when this war ends Hizbollah is going to be running Lebanon.

“The real battle is after the end of this war. We will have to settle score with the Lebanese politicians. We also have the best security and intelligence apparatus in this country, and we can reach any of those people who are speaking against us now. Let’s finish with the Israelis and then we will settle scores later.”

– Hezbollah Commander Sayed Ali, 29/07/06.
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August 4, 2006 3:05pm
Red

I can’t speak for other on the left but broadly speaking I think…

Hezbollah are a bunch of thugs, thugs attract disaffected youth who have nothing left to lose, you have nothing left to lose if someone blows up your home and family…

Israel, a bad idea in 1948 to just draw the map how the allies wanted, can’t change that now Israel has a right to exist

Palestinians got shafted in 1948, they deserve a home land to.

Just because terrorist groups use human shields doesn’t make it ok to blow up those human shields…ever…

Israel have an army who are trained to fight and die if necessary, it is far better to sacrifice the lives of soldiers on your side than the lives of children who stand in front of the people you really want to kill… that means go house to house to find the rockets and take the inevitable causalities, you will find more sympathy from the local populace

This conflict will stop when one generation stops teach the next to hate. Giving kids guns or allowing them to sign artillery shells will ensure they will die too.
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August 4, 2006 3:09pm
Murray

Oh thats so cute sonic.

Why not fuck off to Afula Hospital where the staff – a mix of Jewish, Muslim and Christian Israelis) have spent a few days moving all the patients (also a mix of religions because they treat everyone)to lower floors because Hezbollah are targeting the hospital.

The hospital also has an air raid bunker (which is full) and chemical weapons protection systems. No hospital north of the border has such systems. I’m sure you’ll be able to give us your own very special explaination of why the Lebanese don’t need such systems and the Israelis do.

Anyway drop by and share your little story with them. I’m sure they’ll find it a real hoot.

There’s some nice picutres here of it with the smoke of 5 terrorist rockets surounding it. http://www.ou.org/news/article/6370/

You must be so prund to be such a vocal suppporter of these people.

Don’t forget your flack jacket.

It’s amazing how much crap some people will tolerate. The Jews put up with anti-Semites in Christchurch, David lets you post here. Very much the same thing.
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August 4, 2006 3:10pm
neil morrison

Commander Ali is a bit chilling. One hopes it’s just bluster but Hezbollah’s long standing aim of destroying Lebanon’s democracy , as well as Israel, is one reason not to see this just in terms of Israel vs Hezbollah.
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August 4, 2006 3:18pm
annony

UMMMMMMMMMMMM……..

Sorry, but just because Hezbolah are targeting a hospatal the IDF can blow up a house and kill whole families, as well as target Ambulances? Oh yeah, and the UN, oh yeah and use chemical weapons???

IDF are butchers plain and simple.
Hezbolah are butchers Plain and simple.

IDF have more powerfull weapons and have killed more people…… PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!!

And stop calling people who debate the situation Anti – Semites. Its stupid, and untrue.

Everyone needs to pull their heads out of their asses as well as the asses of their leaders and get this shit stopped!
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August 4, 2006 3:21pm
ross

“Having had enough of all this, Israel calmy stands up, rolls up his sleaves, pulls out a knife and invites Hizbollah to step outside, so as not to risk any of the other patrons getting hurt”.

Hizbollah asks Israel, which is supping on a Tui, how many civilians it has killed in Lebanon. Don’t ask such trivial questions, Israel replies, just get me another beer or else I’ll rape your wife and burn down your village. Would you like to negotiate, asks Hizbollah? Sure, replies Israel, you’d prefer if I raped your village and burnt your wife?
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August 4, 2006 3:22pm
bob

The only thing PLAIN AND SIMPLE about this are the people who like to tell us that the IDF and Hizbollah are the same thing.

Want to hear something plain and simple?

— Israel wants peace and wants to be left alone.
— Hizbollah wants to destroy Israel.

And if you want to turn around and say “Well, Israel wants to destroy Hizbollah” then you are being disingeneous. Of course they do. Because of point #2

Does anyone believe that Hizbollah wants peace and wants to be left alone.

Yeah right.

Also you should learn the difference between “blow up” and “target”

Hizbollah targets civillians and sometimes blows them up. They are just not that good at targetting. If they were then there would be more dead Israelly civilians than Lebanese ones.

Israel targets Hizbollah and sometimes blows up civilians. That’s war mate. Ugly stuff.

And *if* they target ambulances and the UN then it’s because Hizbollah is hiding behind those things. Seen the pics of the UN and Hiz flags flying right next to each other ? Seen the pics of Hiz using ambulances to transport weapons? And anyway *most* of the time it hits ambulances or the UN it’s because of error. If Hizbollah gets lucky hits a hospital then it’s done so on purpose and is happy.

Compare the reactions in Israel when it kills innocent civilians (inquiries, sorrow) with Hizbollah when it kills innocent civilians (cheering).

The same? I don’t think so.
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August 4, 2006 3:58pm
mikeybill

Bring back the Ottoman Empire.

Nationalism is the great curse of the 19th/20th centuries, and the absurd idea that every ethnicity deserves its own special piece of land, is what really lies behind this long-running set of atrocities.
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August 4, 2006 4:00pm
annony

Nope…..

The IDF targets Civilians and wants to have war.
The IDF has no problem with killing civilians.

Israel Has stolen, yes STOLEN palistinian land.

Untill you these facts are addressed then you cannont move foward.

How many children killed in GAza by IDF snipers, how many investigations? How many people bought to justice for it?

Neither side is in a position to take the Moral high ground
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August 4, 2006 4:10pm
ross

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/ap-report.html
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August 4, 2006 4:14pm
Gerrit

Stephen said – “Since I’m a Jewish lefty I just sit and cry, mostly. Hezbollah are evil bastards who deserve to be obliterated; Israel are far too careless in the obliteration process and basically their own worst enemy.”

Has a ring of “The Final Solution” to it does it not? Another Holocaust in the making?

Pictures of the wall going up around Gaza reminds me of similar images of the WW2 Warsaw Ghetto.

The Middle East situation is to complex for me to offer answers to what to do. However similarities (but in reverse) with the Jewish situation in WW2 are noticeable. Not to mention Blitzkreig warfare methods currently being employed.

As a possible answer why not pour (pardon the pun) money into water desalination plants and get irregating the Sinai Desert. Move the Palestinians into the region (Egypt accepting compensation of course) That way they will get a viable home state. Dont know what to do with the Lebanese problem.
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August 4, 2006 4:14pm
annony

The only way their will be peace is if Israel wants it.

Israel has to work towards peace, otherwise the extreemist groups will grow stronger, and Israel will continue to marginalise and radicalise the Arab world.
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August 4, 2006 4:23pm
stephen

“Hezbollah are evil bastards who deserve to be obliterated.” … “Has a ring of “The Final Solution” to it does it not?”

Gerrit, if you think that refers to anything other than the Hezbollah militia as a fighting force, please be corrected. I have no problem with Shiites or any other kind of Muslim or Arabs. You are deliberately misconstruing me.

If there weren’t any suicide bombers, there wouldn’t be a wall. As you know. If you are reminded of the Warsaw ghetto this can only be because you don’t know much about either situation.
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August 4, 2006 4:37pm
stephen

Apropos: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/print.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10394242
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August 4, 2006 4:39pm
annonny

The thing you must remember is reagardless of weither their IDF or Hezbolah they are still humans and do not deserve to die.

The IDF are conscripted.
When civilians see their country being invaded by a force that has already confiscated land from palistine, it makes you want to fight them. Having your Husbands Wives Fathers Mothers Brothers Sisters Children and friends blown up makes you want to fight as well.
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August 4, 2006 4:42pm
Gerrit

Good to know I dont know much about either situation Stephen.

Wall dividing people so you dont have to associate with them. Yeah I can see similarities.

Ah, But what do I know.

Having been bought up in a place where large white crosses mark excecution sites I have a vague feeling about these things. There was a saying during the war “Gebogen Maar Niet Gebroken” Bent But Never Broken.

If there is one thing I do know is that people cannot be repressed for ever (though 30 years is a long time) and that eventually the Isreal will need to be much more pre-emptive in settling the Palestinian problem. You cannot forever just shunt the Palestinians behind a wall and deny them a living by totally controlling their infastructure.
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August 4, 2006 4:56pm
reid

I think people who view this conflict in terms of left-right traditional divisions have nothing between the ears.

As some people have said above, right and wrong have no boundaries, and there’s a clear division here: Israel is wrong all the way.

Israel knows it too, most of her leaders and citizens aren’t stupid, except for Olmert, who has to be the biggest idiot ever to hold the office of PM.

What strikes me is that this is and always was going to be bad for Israel, no matter what the outcome. There is no upside in any calculation. That’s why Olmert is an idiot. At least Sharon, butcher though he was, cared about Israel enough not to do anything that would harm her.

There are now indications that China’s about to become involved, and Hizbollah’s about to launch a serious retaliation against Tel Aviv, using weapons that will be sourced not from Iran but from China. Watch how bad it’s going to become.
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August 4, 2006 8:13pm
reid

Must read analogy from Xymphora, damn he’s good:

“Watching the Democrats spin the Israeli massacre of the Lebanese people is like watching a spectator to an altercation between a 200-pound man and a six-year-old girl. The man keeps knocking the girl down, but she gamely gets up, only to be knocked down again. Gradually, as she struggles more and more to get up, it becomes apparent that he is killing her. Nevertheless, the spectator, Mr. Democrat, claims to be completely oblivious to what is going on, as witness his series of comments:

* She must have done something to provoke him;
* Look, she held up her arm to defend herself, it’s obviously a fair fight;
* These issues are too complicated for any outside observer to understand;
* We have to let them work out their own problems (although the man is using American brass knuckles supplied with the approval of Mr. Democrat);
* There are thousands of years of conflict behind this, and we have no role to play;
* It all comes down to ‘He said, she said’; who knows who is right and who is wrong?

Of course, the analogy is faulty, as we would have to add that the 200-pound man’s brother, Mr. Israel Lobby, is standing beside Mr. Democrat handing him one hundred dollar bills, and whispering, “You won’t get any more unless you support the man”.

Whole post
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August 4, 2006 8:37pm
stephen

reid, I think you’re right about Olmert. Olmert has been suckered into enabling Hezbollah to become the pre-eminent force in Lebanon, while doing great damage to Israel strategically.

The problem is that politically, the Israeli goverment believes it can’t do nothing.

As long as we’re spinning crap analogies, imagine this:

North of Meremere is another country. Every day, an armed force based in Manukau City fires rockets at what it can reach of the upper North Island, sometimes hitting as far as Hamilton. There aren’t many casualties, but only because the civil defense system is working as it is supposed to. Helen Clark orders a bombardment of Auckland, which is dotted with cells of that armed force. It kills many many people. Some people call for that bombardment to stop, but meanwhile the rockets continue.

Now, how easy would it be to unilaterally stop and sell it to the NZ public, while people die in the Waikato every other day? Pretty damn hard, I reckon. It would take a better leader than Olmert is for sure.

I don’t think most New Zealanders understand either the geographical or politcal pressures on the parties here.
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August 4, 2006 9:23pm
spoffmoffat

“How many children killed in Gaza by IDF snipers”
Here are a few figures:
121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 763 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear.01_html
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19062

The vastly disproportionate number of civilian casualties in this conflict (121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 763 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000) caused me to take a closer look. The evidence of the Israeli and Palestinian Human Rights organisations (www.btselm.org, http://www.pchrgaza.org) tipped my sympathies against the Israelis. A look at the map of the settlements and fence on the West Bank clinched it (mideastweb.org/thefence.htm). Statements like this have had an influence on my thinking.

“after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine”-David Ben Gurion 1938, :

“The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel [the land of Israel] will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever.- Menachim Begin 1948,

“When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” -Raphael Eitan (Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces, quoted in the New York Times, 14 April 1983)

“Take the American declaration of Independence. It contains no mention of territorial limits. We are not obliged to fix the limits of the State.” -Moshe Dayan (quoted in the Jerusalem Post, 08/10/1967)

I ask you to consider. If Indonesia had already had the North Island of New Zealand given to them by the ruling Imperial power of the day, had instituted a terror campaign to send all the kiwis to the South Island, killed 763 kiwi kids and made the above statements, would you lob a rocket or two?

If you want proximate causes please don’t attribute complex motives to the resistance groups. They are battling ethnic cleansing. Any of us would do the same.

“Everyone talks like it’s complex and difficult to understand. That’s a cop-out for not wanting to accept reality. It’s just a classic ethnic conflict about who owns this piece of land. It’s as simple as that.”
— Niel McDonald, CBC News Jerusalem Bureau Chief

Re proximate causes. A few statistics from http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ lend perspective

121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 763 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000
1,084 Israelis and 4,126 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.
7,633 Israelis and 30,563 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.
The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO’s.
Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 9,599 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.
0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000.
60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements.

I leave you to draw your own conclusions. If anyone would like to learn some quite interesting facts about this conflict I suggest
http://www.btselm.org
http://www.pchrgaza.org
If anyone is interested in a cogent and readable history try
http://www.bidstrup.com/zionism.htm
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August 5, 2006 1:07am
spoffmoffat

My apologies for the somewhat scrambled nature of the above. I inadvertantly posted my whole work paper on the subject. The facts remain however. Personally I was shocked as I delved deeper into this conflict. As one who stood and cheered the Israeli victory in the Six Day War the change of heart was dramatic.
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August 5, 2006 1:15am
Gerrit

Stephen said

“I don’t think most New Zealanders understand either the geographical or politcal pressures on the parties here.”

No we dont but what distance does do is let us get a neutral perspective. The way Isreal is going is not sustainable. It is self destructing. Isreal’s survival is totally at the mercy of the USA. If that goes (and who will bet long term it will last) Isreal is finished.

What are Isreal’s long term objectives to stand on its own two feet in the Middle East?

I suggest that it’s first objective is to settle the Palestinian Home Land issue. Building walls around Gaza and the West Bank is not going to solve the problem. Hence my anology of the Warsaw Ghetto.

Isreal is run my military commanders who can only win short term battles. What it needs is leaders who can promote a feasible strategic End Game where it’s long term survival alongside its neighbours and in the International Community is assured.
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August 5, 2006 7:08am
Southern Raider

How about this from the perspective of someone who lived in Lebanon during the civil war.

This was a speech delivered to Duke University.

Brigitte Gabriel
Brigitte Gabriel is an expert on the Middle East conflict and lectures nationally and internationally on the subject. She’s the former news anchor of World News for Middle East television and the founder of AmericanCongressforTruth.com

Remarks of Brigitte Gabriel, delivered at the Duke University Counter Terrorism Speak-Out:

“I’m proud and honoured to stand here today, as a Lebanese speaking for Israel , the only democracy in the Middle East . As someone who was raised in an Arabic country, I want to give you a glimpse into the heart of the Arabic world.

I was raised in Lebanon , where I was taught that the Jews were evil, Israel was the devil, and the only time we will have peace in the Middle East is when we kill all the Jews and drive them into the sea.

When the Moslems and Palestinians declared Jihad on the Christians in 1975, they started massacring the Christians, city after city. I ended up living in a bomb shelter underground from age 10 to 17, without electricity, eating grass to live, and crawling under sniper bullets to a spring to get water.

It was Israel who came to help the Christians in Lebanon . My mother was wounded by a Moslem’s shell, and was taken into an Israeli hospital for treatment. When we entered the emergency room, I was shocked at what I saw. There were hundreds of people wounded, Moslems, Palestinians, Christians, Lebanese, and Israeli soldiers lying on the floor. The doctors treated everyone according to their injury. They treated my mother before they treated the Israeli soldier lying next to her. They didn’t see religion, they didn’t see political affiliation, they saw people in need and they helped.

>For the first time in my life I experienced a human quality that I know my culture would not have shown to their enemy. I experienced the values of the Israelis, who were able to love their enemy in their most trying moments. I spent 22 days at that hospital. Those days changed my life and the way I believe information, the way I listen to the radio or to television. I realized I was sold a fabricated lie by my government, about the Jews and Israel , that was so far from reality. I knew for fact that, if I was a Jew standing in an Arab hospital, I would be lynched and thrown over to the grounds, as shouts of joy of Allah Akbar, God is great, would echo through the hospital and the surrounding streets.

I became friends with the families of the Israeli wounded soldiers: one in particular Rina, her only child was wounded in his eyes.

One day I was visiting with her, and the Israeli army band came to play national songs to lift the spirits of the wounded soldiers. As they surrounded his bed playing a song about Jerusalem , Rina and I started crying. I felt out of place and started waking out of the room, and this
mother holds my hand and pulls me back in without even looking at me.
She holds me crying and says: “it is not your fault”. We just stood there crying, holding each other’s hands.

What a contrast between her, a mother looking at her deformed 19 year old only child, and still able to love me the enemy, and between a Moslem mother who sends her son to blow himself up to smithereens just to kill a few Jews or Christians.

The difference between the Arabic world and Israel is a difference in values and character. It’s barbarism verses civilization. It’s democracy verses dictatorship. It’s goodness verses evil.

Once upon a time, there was a special place in the lowest depths of hell for anyone who would intentionally murder a child. Now, the intentional murder of Israeli children is legitimized as Palestinian “armed struggle”.

However, once such behaviour is legitimized against Israel, it is legitimized every where in the world, constrained by nothing more than the subjective belief of people who would wrap themselves in dynamite and nails for the purpose of killing children in the name of god.

Because the Palestinians have been encouraged to believe that murdering innocent Israeli civilians is a legitimate tactic for advancing their cause, the whole world now suffers from a plague of terrorism, from Nairobi to New York , from Moscow to Madrid , from Bali to Beslan.

They blame suicide bombing on “desperation of occupation”. Let me tell you the truth. The first major terror bombing committed by Arabs against the Jewish state occurred ten weeks before Israel even became independent.

On Sunday morning, February 22, 1948 , in anticipation of Israel ‘s independence, a triple truck bomb was detonated by Arab terrorists on Ben Yehuda Street , in what was then the Jewish section of Jerusalem . Fifty-four people were killed, and hundreds were wounded. Thus, it is obvious that Arab terrorism is caused not by the “desperation” of “occupation”, but by the VERY THOUGHT of a Jewish state.

So many times in history in the last 100 years, citizens have stood by and done nothing, allowing evil to prevail. As America stood up against and defeated communism, now it is time to stand up against the terror of religious bigotry and intolerance. It’s time to all stand up, and support and defend the state of Israel , which is the front line of the war against terrorism.”

And annonny and the rest of you terrorist supporting lefties if you want any credibility when organising “peace rallies” don’t invite Keith Locke. It just turns the whole event into a communist party propaganda speech.
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August 5, 2006 11:50am
spoffmoffat

Unfortunately distance has ensured that we have not gained a neutral perspective. Our news media has followed the U.S./Israeli line slavishly since before I was born in 1948. It is only now that we have the internet that the facts of Israel’s policy are emerging.
That our elected representatives remain so ignorant in this information age is a scandal.

One glance at the map of the West Bank settlements (mideastweb.org/thefence.htm) reveals the Israeli purpose.

“The Israeli governments have implemented a consistent and systematic policy intended to encourage Jewish citizens to migrate to the West Bank. One of the tools used to this end is to grant financial benefits and incentives to citizens” – http://www.btselm.org (Israeli Human Rights organisation.)

Does it not seem a little odd that Israel provides cash incentives to encourage Israelis to settle in Palestinian territory. What ever could they be up to? Why have they demolished 4,170 Palestinian homes since September 29, 2000 while building 60 or so Israeli settlements? Did you imagine that the settlements were confined to the border region? Look at the map.

Did Britain bomb Belfast to subdue the IRA?
Did Spain Bomb the Basque regions?
They did not because any fool knows it would only serve to prolong the conflict.

The conclusion is inescapable. Israel has an agenda. Keep the Palestinian and Hezbollah rockets coming so that soft brained politicians in the West will continue their condemnation of the “fanatics” and the uninformed continue to make statements like “Israel wants peace and wants to be left alone. Hizbollah wants to destroy Israel.”
Meanwhile the land grab goes on. Not satisfied with clearing 350 Palestinian villages during the creation of the Sate of Israel, they want it all. Including Lebanon.

“When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” -Raphael Eitan (Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces, quoted in the New York Times, 14 April 1983)
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August 5, 2006 12:44pm
spoffmoffat

Incidently, the Knesset passed this in 2005

“According to the new Civil Torts (Liability of the State) Law, some three and a half million Palestinians who live under Israeli military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are considered “residents of a conflict zone”. As such, they are denied the right to claim compensation for death, injury, or damage to property inflicted on them by Israeli forces.”

The law does not apply to Israelis.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engMDE150422005?open&of=eng-isr
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August 5, 2006 1:15pm
spoffmoffat

Southern Raider.
There are personal histories as heartrending as Ms Gabriel’s on each side of this conflict. I deplore every death, every atrocity committed by either side. Her piece is, however, a narrow view based on a personal history. The facts remain.
121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 763 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.
Ms Gabriel is a child who survived. The daughter of a high Government official she has enjoyed a successful media career.
I know of no equivalent figure who speaks for the Palestinian victims. This is not surprising given the domination of the media by interests sympathetic to the Israeli cause. If I did, however, I would not post it.
Trading personal accounts of human misery will advance the debate no further. For my part I prefer to concentrate on facts.
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August 5, 2006 2:08pm
Southern Raider

Spoffmoffat have you ever lived in the Middle East? You “prefer to concentrate on the facts” but where do you get these facts from?

I don’t think the media is sympathetic to the Israeli cause either. Just look at the Herald and other NZ media outlets who sit squarely on the left side of the spectrum.

The other day it was highlighted that Israel was planning to launch a push to towards the Latani River, but failed to mention that over 150 Hez rockets had landed in Israel in a 90 minute period with no discrimation at all for who or what they hit.

What happened to the beat up on Israel for apparently firing a rocket a Gaza strip beach killing a Palestian family. Some claim it was actually an upexploded shell from years ago or a Hamas planted trap to stop Israelis coming down the cost. This makes front pages and incriminates Israel before any official investigation has been held. When the truth does finally appear there is silence as clearing Israel of a “war crime” or “attack on innocents” is not sensationalist enough to sell papers.
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August 5, 2006 2:27pm
spoffmoffat

Southern Raider.
Many of my facts are gleaned from the Israeli Human Rights site http://www.btselm.org
I try to include sources with all my posts. (see above) Have you checked them out?
I was pleased to see the editorial in the Herald the day before yesterday.
Please give me your source for the “unexploded bomb” story. I would like to check that out.
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August 5, 2006 2:54pm
TheProphet

spinmoffat – A question –

Should Israel collect up 642 Israeli children , take them to a open area of ground and cut their throats? Just to even up the death count of course.

If not then you could maybe stop using that stat as some kind of score card.

Any ideas how many children died in central Africa today? Me thinks it may well be more than the entire 6 year child count that you are quoting. In one day.If you are that concerned go and shout out about them.

This is a war.As far as I can see Hezbollah has goaded Israel into the actions that they have taken. People die in wars. 50 million in WWII. How many of those do you think were actual combatants?

FACT
Humans have wars.We have since before recorded history. It is part of our condition. There is nothing anyone can do about it. I find it laughable that people think we can live without war.

Allah protect us.
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August 5, 2006 3:04pm
spoffmoffat

Southern Raider.
This is a list of Human rights violations (by both sides) taken from the official site of the Israeli Human Rights Organisation. The full articles can be viewed at
http://www.btselem.org/English/OTA/

July 24 High Court errs in denying petition against separation barrier around Ariel

The High Court accepted without challenge all the state’s arguments, though they were refuted in court. In doing so, the High Court granted, once again, a cloak of legality to Israel ‘s improper policy.

July 11 Appeal to Israeli High Court: Stop the harm to the civilian population in Gaza

On July 11, 2006, six human rights groups petitioned the Israeli High Court demanding that the crossings in Gaza be opened to allow for the steady and regular supply of fuel, food, medicine, and equipment, including spare parts needed to operate generators.

July 9 Two years after the ICJ ruling: Most of the Barrier route still inside West Bank

Two years ago the International Court of Justice, ruled that building the barrier inside the West Bank violates international law. Since then, changes were made in the route, but around 80% of it is still located within the West Bank.

July 3 Revocation of residency of Hamas members from Jerusalem is illegal

Following revocation of their residency status, the four officials will have their identity cards taken from them and will be forbidden entry to Jerusalem . The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits the occupying power from forcibly transferring civilians from their homes.

July 3 Supersonic booms: Prohibited collective punishment

The Israeli Air Force is intentionally causing supersonic booms over Gaza in order to harass the population. This means, which is particularly harming children, is a form of collective punishment, outlawed by international humanitarian law.

June 29 B’Tselem severely condemns execution of Eliahu Asheri

Abduction and execution violates law and morality. The willful killing of civilians is a war crime under international humanitarian law, and is unjustified whatever the circumstances.

June 28 Israel tightens siege on Sheikh Sa’ed

Since an Israeli court cancelled construction of the Separation Barrier between Sheikh Sa’ad and Jerusalem, Border Police harassment of the villlage has intensified.

June 28 B’Tselem to Defense Minister: Don’t damage civilian facilities in Gaza

Israel has the right to all legal measures to free the abducted soldier, however, it must refrain from using measures which contravene International Humanitarian Law.

June 27 Organizations: Safeguard the life and health of the abducted soldier

All groups holding the wounded soldier must adhere to the Geneva Convention which decrees responsibility to protect wounded and sick members of the armed forces.

June 22 Israeli Air Force Attack in Gaza – Grave Suspicion of War Crime

On 21 June 2006 The Israeli Air Force fired missiles again into a residential neighborhood in the Gaza Strip. The missile fire, which hit a home in Khan Yunis, killed a 35 year old woman, Fatmeh Ahmad, and her brother Zachariya Ahmad, 48, and injured 11 others.

June 21 The economic crisis aggravates the water shortage in the Occupied Territories

Residents of the West Bank suffer from a water shortage all year long. The shortage is particularly felt in the summer, and this year will likely be worse because of the economic crisis in the area.

June 19 B’Tselem welcomes Defense Minister’s order to reexamine Barrier’s route

B’Tselem today wrote to the Minister of Defense, Amir Peretz, and commended him, on his decision to reexamine, in light of a High Court of Justice decision, the route of the separation barrier.

June 15 Missile-fire in Gaza: Grave suspicion of war crime

The Israeli airforce fired missiles into a residential area in northern Gaza city. The missiles killed 11 Palestinians, ten of them civilian passersby. Two children were among those killed.

June 15 Ruling on Zufin Barrier requires re-examination of other Barrier petitions

In a judgment handed down on 15 June in a petition filed by HaMoked, the Israeli High Court ordered the IDF to dismantle the eastern portion of the Separation Barrier around the Zufin settlement.

June 15 Israeli Human Rights Organizations: End Killing of Civilians

Israeli human rights organizations demanded that the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defense take immediate action to end the killing of Palestinian civilians in the Occupied Territories.

June 13 Israeli fire kills civilians in Gaza

Israel’s missile and artillery fire at targets in the Gaza Strip is taking a heavy toll in deaths and injuries of Palestinian civilians who take no part in the fighting.

June 13 Qassam rocket-fire at Israeli civilians

Deliberate attacks on civilians are both immoral and illegal. The willful killing of civilians is classified as a grave breach in the Fourth Geneva Convention and as a war crime that is unjustifiable under any circumstances.

June 10 Israeli Human Rights Organizations: End the killing of Civilians

Human rights organizations wrote to the Prime Minister and the minister of defense, calling on them to end the killing of civilians. During the weekend, seven family members were killed in Gaza.

June 1 Extra-judicial execution is a war crime

On 30 May, Palestinian militants executed two Palestinians in the Balata refugee camp, Nablus District. B’Tselem severely condemns the execution, which is defined as a war crime. The taking of life on grounds of a suspicion against the person is a violation of basic principles of law and morality.”

May 30 Illegal to revoke residency of members of Hamas from Jerusalem

The Interior Minister, Roni Bar-On, sent letters to a minister in the Palestinian Authority and to three legislators in the Palestinian Legislative Council, all members of Hamas, informing them that if they do not resign their positions within thirty days, he will revoke their permanent-resident status.

May 29 New video: Soldiers shot to death mother of five, in her living room

From January 2004 to the time of this incident, Israeli security forces have killed 157 persons in actions to arrest wanted persons in the West Bank. At least 35 of the fatalities were civilians who were not wanted.

May 22 Call for investigation into killing of civilians in targeted killing in Gaza

The circumstances of the incident raise the grave suspicion that the attack was disproportionate. Attacks of this kind are defined as a war crime.

May 14 High Court approves racist amendment to Nationality Law

The amendment severely infringes the right to family life, separates couples, and detaches parents from their children.

May 14 Crisis in medical services in the territories

The cessation of the transfer of tax moneys and financial assistance to the Palestinian Authority by Israel and the donor states has created a severe shortage of medicines and medical equipment and goods in hospitals in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

May 9 Border Police officer beats Palestinian at checkpoint, injuring him

The youth arrived at the police station to file a complaint, but ended up being detained by the police on a counter complaint filed by the officer.

May 1 Apologies aren’t enough – the IDF must investigate the death in Tulkarm

The circumstances under which ‘Itaf Zalat was killed in Tulkarem raise the grave suspicion that Israeli security forces acted as if they were conducting an assassination rather than an arrest operation.

Apr. 30 The government approved re-routing of the Separation Barrier

Even in its new, amended, route, the barrier in the Ariel-Kdumim area will severely infringe upon the human rights of thousands of Palestinians who live nearby, only to allow for the annexation of 15 Jewish settlements as well as huge swaths of land for their future expansion.

Apr. 30 Reinstating cancelled barrier “through the back door”

A 41km-long concrete barricade Israel is building in the suthern Hebron hills, will further isolate over 3,000 Palestinians living in 18 cave-villages southeast of Route 317, who are dependent for basic supplies and services on the town of Yatta .

Apr. 26 Israel obligated to respect rights of Gaza residents

Israel continues to assert decisive control over many aspects of life in Gaza, and therefore bears the legal obligation to respect the rights of Gaza residents.

Apr. 24 Firing Qassam rockets on civilians

Thirteen civilians, five of them minors, were killed by Qassam rockets that Palestinians fired into Israel and at Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip. The Palestinian Authority has the duty to prevent attacks against Israeli civilians.

Apr. 24 Revocation of residency of Palestinian parliament members is illegal

East Jerusalem is an integral part of the Occupied Territories , so its Palestinian residents are protected by the Fourth Geneva Convention, which prohibits the occupying power from forcibly transferring civilians from their homes.

Apr. 17 Nine people killed in Tel-Aviv bombing

Attacks aimed at civilians undermine all rules of morality and law.

Apr. 16 Petition to the high court: Reducing “safety zone” in shelling of Gaza strip is manifestly illegal order

Israeli and Palestinian human rights organizations petitioned the High Court, demanding that the army revoke the order that reduces the safety zone of shells fired into the Gaza Strip to only 100 meters from civilians.

Apr. 10 Israel bears legal responsibility for the death of a girl in Gaza

The harm to the Ghiben house, the death of Hadil and the injury to the rest of the household are the direct result of the reduction of the “safety zone” and Israel’s policy to fire into residential areas

Apr. 5 B’Tselem to the IDF: Make open-fire regulations public

The request follows publication of an IDF report that verifies human rights organizations’ repeated claims that the regulations are unclear.

Apr. 4 Police officers assault boys in Jerusalem

On March 12, 2006, plain-clothed police officers assaulted two children, ages 15 and 11, who were on their way home in the neighborhood of Abu Tor in East Jerusalem . The officers beat the two boys and took the older one to a police station where they abused him severely. The family has filed a complaint.

Apr. 4 Video testimony: police officers severely beat and abuse a detainee

Police officers took Iyad Shamasneh to a police station in which he was severely beaten and abused. Eventually he was released with no legal action taken against him.

March 31 Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians near Kedumim

B’Tselem strongly condemns the suicide bombing near the gas station at the entrance to the settlement of Kedumim in the northern West Bank, in which 4 Israeli civilians were killed. Attacks aimed at civilians undermine all rules of morality and law. Specifically, the intentional killing of civilians is considered a “grave breach” of international humanitarian law and a war crime.

March 20 Israeli appeals court voids section of the Separation Barrier in Jerusalem

The Tel-Aviv Magistrate’s Court held that the planned route of the barrier, which cuts off the Sheikh Sa’ed neighborhood from the rest of its village, causes disproportionate harm to the daily lives of the residents.

March 19 Soldiers disrupt work in factory near Jenin

Israeli soldiers repeatedly go onto the land of a charcoal plant in Y’abed, Jenin District. The soldiers enter the plant and order the owner and his workers to leave and go home. The army’s actions have led to severe losses for the owners from the loss of wood that burned completely while they kept away from the plant.

March 16 Parading of naked prisoners in Jericho violated International Law

B’Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights – Israel, wrote today to the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG), to demand that the military police investigate the violation of the dignity of the detainees in the IDF’s operation in Jericho.

March 7 Targeted Killing in Gaza: Grave Suspicion of a War Crime

Three bystanders were killed in an israeli air force attack in Gaza, all of them minors. B’Tselem requested the Judge Advocate General to order a Military Police investigation into the attack, which may be a war crime.

March 2 Israel plans to imprison five Palestinian villages near Jerusalem in an enclave

Israel plans to run a barrier around five Palestinian villages northwest of Jerusalem , and imprison them in an enclave that will separate them from East Jerusalem and neighboring Palestinian villages.

Feb. 28 Israeli soldiers beat Palestinan youths at a checkpoint, February 2006

On the night of 9 February 2005, ‘Alaa al-Ma’iwi and ‘Alaa Hilkawi were driving home. At the al-Fawar checkpoint, soldiers claimed that the two had weapons and demanded that they hand them over. The soldiers beat them severely and threatened them.

Feb. 28 Suspicion that Israel has classified areas near Gaza perimeter fence as “killing zones”

Since the disengagement from the Gaza Strip was completed, in September 2005, IDF soldiers have killed nine unarmed Palestinian civilians who were in the area of the Gaza perimeter fence. Five minors, including an eight-year old child, were among the nine persons killed.

Feb. 21 Report by B’Tselem and Bimkom: Under the Guise of Security

At a press conference on 21 Feb.2006, B’Tselem and Bimkom are discussing a new report dealing with the route of the separation barrier. The report shows that the route was based on considerations relating to settlement expansion and control of land, and not on security reasons, as the government has continuously claimed.

Feb. 20 New video – Lethal Ambiguity

A new video by B’Tselem features Israeli combat soldiers talking about the IDF’s rules of engagement for using lethal force. The video shows that the orders given to soldiers are vague, and generate a culture of excessive force and little accountability for the many civilian deaths that result.

Feb. 13 Israel has effectively annexed the Jordan Valley

Israel imposes severe restrictions on the movement of Palestinians in the Jordan Valley, which in effect annexes it to Israel. B’Tselem field reserach indicates that, as a rule, the army forbids the entry of Palestinians to the Jordan Valley , and only allows entry of those Palestinians listed as residents of this area.

Feb. 7 IDF soldiers beat 17-year-old at a surprise checkpoint, January 2006

Jihad Harzala, 17, was on his way to visit his big brother when soldiers ordered him to get out of the taxi, beat him severely, and used their cellular phone to document the beating. B’Tselem wrote to the Central Command’s legal advisor and demanded that the incident be investigated.

Feb. 5 Ramla police beat and abused a Palestinian who refuses to collaborate

Iyad Shamasneh was arrested in Nov. 2005. He was taken to Ramla prison, where, according to his testimony, police officers beat and sexually assaulated him.

Feb. 2 B’Tselem: Investigate Excessive Force in ‘Amona Demolitions

B’Tselem wrote to Israel ‘s Attorney Generalasking him to order an investigation into the excessive force used by the Israel Police during the dismantling of the permanent houses in the Amona settlement.

Jan. 30 Video testimony: They separated me from my land

The farmland of ‘Abd a-Latif ‘Odeh, of D’aba Village, lies adjacent to his home. The separation barrier was built between his home and his parcel of farmland. To get from one to the other, he and his family have to travel 22 kilometers, which they do by donkey-drawn cart. Sometimes, when they get to the crossing gate, soldiers do not let their cart pass.

Jan. 26 B’Tselem: Hamas must renounce war crimes

B’Tselem calls on Hamas to renounce the policy of suicide bombings, and refrain from all deliberate attacks on civilians, in both Israel and the Occupied Territories .

Jan. 24 New B’Tselem Campaign: Change the Route of the Separation Barrier

B’Tselem launches a public campaign to alter the route of the separation barrier.

Jan. 19 Video testimony: Destruction of an olive grove, apparently by settlers

This video depicts Muntaha Najar, a 55-year-old woman, upon discovering that her family’s olive grove, which contained decades-old trees, had been destroyed.

Jan. 18 Border Police attak Red Crescent paramedics

Border Police prevent Red Crescent from taking child to East Jerusalem for cancer treatment, assault ambulance crew, ‘Anata Checkpoint, December 2005

Jan. 5 B’Tselem’s intervention stops GSS abuse of Palestinian family

The General Security Service repeatedly ordered a Palestinian family to appear at its offices, held them for hours at a time, and maltreated them. In late November, B’Tselem wrote to the Civil Administration’s demanding that the abuse end. B’Tselem did not receive a response to its demand. However, the family reported that the maltreatment had ceased.
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August 5, 2006 3:08pm
Southern Raider

So you can copy and past. Go straight to the finish line and collect your NCEA.

You failed to answer my question about whether you have lived in the Middle East or know anyone that has?

Quoting states from a human rights group isn’t actually producing facts. They come from a certain point of view and will pick up on every little thing Israel does, but never speak out against Hamas, Hisbollah, Syria etc.

I put human rights groups up their with civil libertians. A lot of hot air and not much use to the planet.

Try looking at jpost.com for another point of view. I’m not saying it’s the right one, but at least its a point of view from the Israeli side that isn’t manipulated by the left.
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August 5, 2006 3:40pm
spoffmoffat

The Prophet.
The relevance of the first part of your post escapes me. You must elucidate.
I address your statement
“As far as I can see Hezbollah has goaded Israel into the actions that they have taken.”

Here is an excerpt from an article written by Tanya Reinhart who is Professor Emeritus of linguistics and media studies at Tel Aviv University and a frequent op-ed writer for the Israeli evening paper ‘Yediot Aharonot’.

“In the six years since Israel withdrew, there have been frequent border incidents between Hezbollah and the Israeli army, and cease-fire violations of the type committed now by Hezbollah have occurred before, initiated by either side, and more frequently by Israel. None of the previous incidents resulted in Katyusha shelling of the north of Israel, which has enjoyed full calm since Israel’s withdrawal. It was possible for Israel to handle this incident as all its predecessors, with at most a local retaliation, or a prisoner exchange, or even better, with an attempt to solve this border dispute once and for all. Instead, Israel opted for a global war. As Peretz put it: “The goal is for this incident to end with Hezbollah so badly beaten that not a man in it does not regret having launched this incident [sic].”[7]

The Israeli government knew right from the start that launching its offensive would expose the north of Israel to heavy Katyusha rockets attacks. This was openly discussed at this first government’s meeting on Wednesday: “Hezbollah is likely to respond to the Israeli attacks with massive rocket launches at Israel, and in that case, the IDF might move ground forces into Lebanon”.[8] One cannot avoid the conclusion that for the Israeli army and government, endangering the lives of residents of northern Israel was a price worth paying in order to justify the planned ground offensive”

The article may be read in full here:
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_684.shtml
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August 5, 2006 3:43pm
Gerrit

Why is it a requirement to have lived in the Middle East in order to have a valid opinion on the Israeli – Palestinian situation?

Southern Raider and spoffmoffat posts exemplify exactly why the conflict continues.

Petty point scoring and no solutions.
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August 5, 2006 4:00pm
spoffmoffat

Southern Raider.
The answer to both questions is yes though I fail to see the relevance.
Did it escape your notice that the list of violations and war crimes I posted is from the Israeli Human Rights group. The Palestinian equivalent can be found here if you prefer:
http://www.pchrgaza.org
I am sorry you hold that view of Human Rights organisations. One can only assume that your human rights have never been violated.
I read the Jerusalem Post.
Right and left have very little to do with this conflict. Israel invented the Kibbutz. I once held office in the New Zealand (Bob Jones)Party.
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August 5, 2006 4:05pm
spoffmoffat

Thank you Gerrit. I agree.
Solutions will only be arrived at when those of us in the West become informed. If I have inspired even one person to investigate the evidence I feel I will have contributed to a solution.
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August 5, 2006 4:12pm
mikeybill

The question of what are the limits of tolerance is a central one for any liberal (in its true, not mindless American perjorative sense).

I cannot support Hizbullah, because their ontological position is one based in an anti-science, anti-rational, anti-human set of principles. The same applies to Hamas. The same applies to the Saudi government, and the Iranian one. All their basic beliefs are inimical to mine.

Israel, by contrast, allows dissent, does not force women into veils or cut the hands off thieves or stone women caught in adultery or kill homosexuals. Israel is not perfect, but it is far less imperfect by my standards than any of its neighbours.

And yes, I have lived and travelled in the Middle East.
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August 5, 2006 4:51pm
spoffmoffat

Good point mikeybill. However, the fact that Israel protects the human rights of it’s own does not mitigate their violation of those of it’s neighbours. Neither does it excuse the ethnic cleansing of, not only it’s own lands but those it covets.
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August 5, 2006 5:02pm
Spoffmoffat

Southern Raider
I am anxious to follow up on your statement that the killing of the family on the beach in Gaza was a beat up. Have you got a reference for me?
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August 5, 2006 5:36pm
Spoffmoffat

The most recent news I can get on the Gaza Beach episode is from Human Rights Watch.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/20/israb13595.htm
Contrary to reports in the American press, they still maintain their original thesis and call for independent analysis
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August 5, 2006 7:08pm
geniusNZ

I’d remain agnostic on this one…

Wikipedia has a good article (which was probably last edited by an israeli*)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_beach_blast

Overall –
1) The Israelis basically accuse the Palestinians of a conspiracy involving planting various evidence (which they clearly do indeed do from time to time).

2) The Palestinians and HRW imply a conspiracy involving various parties.

3) “happy middle” – there was an explosion (of Israeli or Palestinian weaponry) in the vicinity of some unexploded 155mm shell.

If I have to put them against each other I have to say (1) is the least likely… I get the impression the Israeli investigation isn’t being totally upfront.

* Jpost has not being charitable HRW’s position (Lucy Mair or Marc Garlasco) and it takes it as fact.
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August 5, 2006 10:01pm
reid

Genius your position reminds me of the analogy from xymphora:

* It all comes down to ‘He said, she said’; who knows who is right and who is wrong?

(see my previous post above)

Those who were responsible bear a heavy burden.
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August 5, 2006 11:00pm
geniusNZ

Reid,

I’m inclined not to pull a “Terry Lane”.

I don’t think you should go into debating individual issues trying to achieve some sort of global objective. Otherwise you will end up associating “israel being found ‘guilty'” with “peace on earth” or somthing silly like that and will be blinded to the evidence.

Afterwards, if you want to make a case about the evil of jews or that China should take on israel or whatever, you can look at the totality of the evidence.
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August 6, 2006 10:07am
Spoffmoffat

Geniusnz.
Greetings.
I feel that the Israeli unexploded ordnance argument is spurious. What are they saying? It wasn’t our fault because we fired that shell yesterday??
In the light of the reasons given for invading Lebanon (they are firing at us) how can this be a defence?
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August 6, 2006 11:12am
Spoffmoffat

Reid.
Followed your link to Ynetnews and performed an interesting experiment. Under an article proclaiming that Israeli deaths are not reported in the foreign press I posted an innocent question. I asked to be directed to the page on their website that gave the civilian casualties in Lebanon. When I hit the post button a banner told me my post would be published pending approval. So far it has not been published. Let’s wait and see shall we?
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August 6, 2006 2:14pm
Spoffmoffat

Here’s the Ynetnews url:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286880,00.html
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August 6, 2006 3:36pm
geniusNZ

Spoffmoffat,

Depends on what you are trying to prove. I’m not sure what it is…

I guess israel ‘wins’ where deaths have a large “accident” or “other side stupidity” or “other side evil” component and ‘anti-israelis’ win where it is low in these areas.

I guess the shell on the beach gives us a little of 1 and 2 and some 3 if a terrorist helped to set it off. Maybe enough maybe not enough.

Regardless, it isn’t all that likely as it stands there.
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August 6, 2006 4:06pm
Spoffmoffat

GeniusNZ.
Just trying to ascertain whether Ynetnews is a reliable source of information. My current opinion is that if they write a lead article complaining about lack of balance in the world reportage of Israeli deaths yet in the whole paper there is no mention of Lebanese casualties they are full of the stuff you don’t want to step in.
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August 6, 2006 4:22pm
yahr cutxigjo

bxpe xrpm kombt kudi cqpkyf ytpocj kmytu
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Hompaddock
Much ado about cussing…
Point of Order
A guide to making a submission on the Treaty Principles Bill
The Standard
Justice in Brazil
No Right Turn
"Seymour is only doing openly what M?ori nationalists and their Pakeha allies have been doing, quietly for the past 50 years."
Not PC
The transgender agenda sunk Kamala
Bob McCoskrie's McBlog
SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT
No Punches Pulled (Bob Jones)
What does “reciprocity” mean in New Zealand laws?
Croaking Cassandra
Media Link: “A View from Afar” on the US elections.
Kiwipolitico
This will not end well
Offsetting Behaviour
Top 14 Predictions for Round 10
Stats Chat
Tory Whanau may have to sell Wellington mayoralty to make ends meet
The Civilian
The Accidental Engagement
Imperator Fish
Legal Beagle: Election '23: The Special Votes
Public Address
Making this movie might have been a mistake
Liam Hehir
Why I am retiring from political blogging
Kiwi FireWalker
Angie Warren-Clark: Meet the Newbies
Dan Moskovitz

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