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May 30, 2006 11:17am by David Farrar

New Helengrad definition

Unpatriotic
adj : showing lack of loyalty to the Labour Party

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burt

She is almost correct. Labour policy is what defines NZ at the moment. The one country in the world that has a major suplus, no tax cuts and the Govt working as hard as it can to get all people on welfare.
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May 30, 2006 11:33am
Graham Miller

Quoting from the referenced article:

*****
Labour’s response has been to brand Dr Brash as unpatriotic in the hope voters will be turned off by what it says is his constant “bagging” of New Zealand. Miss Clark suggested yesterday Dr Brash’s speech indicated Labour’s tactic was working.

“I’m simply interested he felt he had to make the speech. He’s very much on the record as basically praising other places as places to live rather than their own country and I don’t think that goes down too well.”
*****

I’m extremely interested Helen Clark felt she had to comment on the speech. She’s very much on the record as wanting to lift New Zealand’s place on the OECD economic ladder and I don’t think her closed mind (to alternative policy prescriptions) goes down too well.

Well that was a nice diversion. Let’s get back to the programme, folks – this is a red-pen flourish of spin over substance. There’s a difference between comparing New Zealand as a place to live (relative to other countries) and providing alternative policy prescriptions for a better New Zealand (again relative to other countries). Helen Clark would be delighted if a gullible public (made up of the likes of JohnD) could confuse the two concepts. Whatever happened to open policy debate?
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May 30, 2006 11:47am
Redbaiter

I’m annoyed that Don Brash faction even bothers to respond to the cheap predictable attacks from the Klark camp. Don’t Don or his advisers have a clue?? They should be proactive not reactive. Nobody with any idea of strategy would waste time dreaming up responses to the lame attacks of the Red China sycophant Helen Klark and her media acolytes.
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May 30, 2006 11:52am
Fred

Is patriotism loyalty to the current government, or loyalty to the country?

What is an un-patriotic act? If you are totally committed to your country, and its betterment can you do anything that is un-patriotic?

For the first, then patriotism is loyalty to your country, not its ruler. For the second I am unsure.

Any thoughts?
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May 30, 2006 12:02pm
err..

“lame attacks… Helen Klark”

What, and insisting on mis-spelling somebody’s name just because you don’t like them isn’t lame? All this Klark, Liar-bour and so forth just reads like a primary-school slanging match. I think you need to clean the snot out of your own bad teenage mustache before getting to work on Helen’s.
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May 30, 2006 12:08pm
Danyl Mclauchlan

And all of a sudden this debate is about Don Brash’s patriotism and not Cullens refusal to cut taxes. Funny that.
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May 30, 2006 12:08pm
Craig Ranapia

Redbaiter:

Oh, don’t you have a bridge to hide under until three billy-goats gruff come along? I think we can take it as read that nobody can ever attain your Olympian standards of ideological purity, or match your Stygian depths of racid boobery. You’d just piss on Brash no matter what he did – and seldom have anything constructive, insightful or even amusingly cranky to say – so why bother?
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May 30, 2006 12:19pm
Redbaiter

Yes exactly DM. Once again, the Nats allow themselves to be manipulated by Klark and her media acolytes rather than keeping her on the defensive. National seems clueless naive and amateurish against the might of the Klark propaganda machine. Whilst Brash could be excused for this, the war cabinet at National cannot. Any General with an idea would be keeping the fire on and not so readily going on the defensive.
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May 30, 2006 12:19pm
Craig Ranapia

Bloody hell, Redbaiter, listening to you offer strategic advice is akin to watching Custer impersonate Von Clausewitz. You really don’t have a clue…

OTOH, I’m beginning to think the chap who speculated that you’re a lefty troll with way too much time on your hands is onto something. IN that case, more fool me for feeding you.
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May 30, 2006 12:27pm
tim barclay

There is no debate about Don Brash’s patriotism. Indeed Brash is worried that unless something is done to address the problems over tax rates then this country will have a major problem with its young and educated.
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May 30, 2006 1:21pm
darren

Indeed Tim
Don Brash could have had a cushy retirement living off directorships and the like, based on his worldwide wealth of experience.
Instead, he accepted a major paycut to concentrate on saving New Zealand. Indeed, Don Brash also saved the National Party.
He is also a fifth generation New Zealander- ngati pakeha, you might say.
As for Michael Cullen? He’s just a Pom and a failed academic. Cullen wasn’t born here so we really should not expect lectures on patriotism from him.
Liarbour is showing its true colours in going for the man and not the message. They are spinning and lying their way out of trouble. There again, we know Dear Leader is just an old spinster.
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May 30, 2006 1:51pm
darren

Indeed Tim
Don Brash could have had a cushy retirement living off directorships and the like, based on his worldwide wealth of experience.
Instead, he accepted a major paycut to concentrate on saving New Zealand. Indeed, Don Brash also saved the National Party.
He is also a fifth generation New Zealander- ngati pakeha, you might say.
As for Michael Cullen? He’s just a Pom and a failed academic. Cullen wasn’t born here so we really should not expect lectures on patriotism from him.
Liarbour is showing its true colours in going for the man and not the message. They are spinning and lying their way out of trouble. There again, we know Dear Leader is just an old spinster.
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May 30, 2006 1:54pm
K1

I don’t care much about the whole patriotic issue, (I mean, really, aren’t there real issues to debate? And I don’t mean “mainstream NZ” either) but the Don seems to be cocking up the PR here again. Did anyone hear his call to Leighton Smith on Newstalk ZB this morning? Completely unconvincing, “hyuk, hyuk, am I on the air?” like some first time caller, meandered through what points he was trying to make, and then they were such obvious messages you could almost hear the handlers holding up the flash cards… even Leighton was giving him advice on dealing with the issue. He does not create the impression of being in control, let alone driving some new agenda – more like confused and defensive. Irrespective of party loyalties, there must surely be general recognition that he’s just not up to it. If National want off the opposition benches, it’s going to have to get some leadership.
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May 30, 2006 1:59pm
Ed Snack

Rebaiter may indulge in over the top language, but I think he has pointed out a major problem for National. Why does Don Brash, and National for that matter, so readily allow Labour to start defining the debate terms ? I don’t see why Don had to go and make a speech about patriotism, whimpish stuff indeed.

National need to stay on the attack. Patriotism is in the eye of the beholder, and there is more than enough to accuse Labour of with regard to being unpatriotic. It may or may not be more effective, but at least it allows National to continue to frame the debate. I have long been a DB supporter in general, but I am beginning to wonder who he has advising him. Then again, they are only starting to get down to Labour’s level, but that is a bad sign.
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May 30, 2006 2:17pm
iiq374

Unfortunatly as long as the parliamentary left continues to be dominated by life long Politicians and Academics, while the right continues to be dominated by workers converting to politics you will continue to see this happening.

National’s main problem for quite some time is that it does not have the calibre of “politician” of Labour – so comes off politically inept. Of course this is also one of its main strengths.

For those who go to contest this also have a look at the main recent embarrasments in the Labour party – generally those who have worked in the “real world” then moved to politics. And despite having the real insight and motiviation to attack issues end up being sidelined because of “political” gaffes.
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May 30, 2006 2:32pm
Craig Ranapia

Ed;

Frankly, I think if Redbaiter has his way National would need a fireman’s ladder to find a sewer. That’s not where we need to go, and while it’s great fun bitching and whinging from the ideologically pure sidelines does anyone have any construtive ideas that are going to play in the real word? Bonus point for a contribution from a non-Labour party hack willing to make a comment over a real name. Quickly before the crickets start up…
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May 30, 2006 2:44pm
baxter

I understand that when Liabour made a desperate move with backdated legislation to make Harry Duynhoven a Kiwi after he had elected to be a dutchman, the real reason for the panic was that Cullen had elected to be a pom instead of a New Zealander, and thus he also would have been ineligible for Parliament.
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May 30, 2006 2:56pm
side show bob

National needs a new coach. The Dear Leader and her arse lickers are quite obviously playing the man and not the ball. Don is playing into her hands, he should ignore the cow.
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May 30, 2006 3:14pm
Bearhunter

Darren has a go at Michael Cullen, while – hilariously – then going on to accuse Labour of ad hominem attacks. Dismissing Cullen as “just a Pom” is not an argument, Darren, it’s a disparaging remark. And rememebr that this country you overflow with patriotism for was FOUNDED in its current form by mere Poms. And no, I am not a Pom, although I am one of those terrible, sneaky, unskilled immigrants coming over here to take your men’s jobs and women….
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May 30, 2006 3:43pm
southern raider

Cullen shows his patriotism by stating that Treasury figures show that it is a range of workers moving to Ausy and we are getting higher skilled immigrants to replace them.

Isn’t it the kiwi builders and sparkies we need, not chemistry doctorates driving taxis.

It is good to see Labour is happy to let all the kiwis move to Ausy as long as they are replaced by other immigrants. At what stage do we consider changing the name of our country?

They also seem to spew forth trendy phrases like knowledge economy and then do the complete opposite. You have a world beating company like Rakon who wants to increase the number of kiwis employed and definitely fits into the definition of a “knowledge economy” company and comrade Helen wants to shift them out. Rakon could approach Singapore and they would have everything laid out on a plate for them including a very low or nill company tax rate.
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May 30, 2006 4:34pm
Adam Smith

Typical of the North Koreanisation of New Zealand.

The government’s every action – from the theft of private property to the Orwellian Newspeak to the legal ‘great escapes’ to the media control to the branding as ‘unpatriotic’ anyone who points out the obvious… just smacks of the Great Leader.

How does that Bob Dylan song go “… patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings…”

“Society in every state is a blessing,
but Government, even in its best state,
is but a necessary evil;
in its worst state, an intolerable one.”
— Thomas Paine
(1737-1809)
1776
Source: Common Sense, February 14, 1776
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May 30, 2006 4:41pm
lyndon

No, no, redbaiter – cough – has a point.

A week after we find Labour was taking advice on not letting National define the terms and scope of the debate (advice the NEEDED), here’s Don buying into the patriotism argument.

I’m not sure how much choice he had, and I guess he’s made a fair fist of emphasising what he actually meant. I still feel like there’s a mistake in there somewhere. Might have been the pre-publicity.

There you go, ‘baiter. Lyndon agrees with you.
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May 30, 2006 4:48pm
Redbaiter

National have lost three elections in a row, and with a record like that, I don’t see how anyone could expect them not to attract criticism. The essence of the issue is that National needs an objective (other than winning the election), and to convince the electorate of the worth of that objective. Indications are that the present hierarchy still can’t agree on a common political goal and are too lame to articulate it even if they could agree. Time for fresh blood in the war room. The old guard of politically confused wet Hollywood liberals and blue rinse tea drinkers should step aside. Their record to date in failing to even come up with a counter strategy to the socialist’s propaganda offensive says they have to.

(As for the self appointed self important gate keepers to to this forum with nothing to add other than their shallow and bigoted adjudications on the worth of other poster’s messages… drop dead. Especially when you’re apparently so bereft of ideas yourself you have to beg them off others)
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May 30, 2006 4:52pm
Darren

Bearhunter, you have a point
I was been personal by attacking Michael Cullen.
And it was most unbecoming of me.
I was just highlighting Liarbour’s methods by doing what they do.
My, how they set an example to us all.
As a Yorkshireman, It was also unfair of me to dismiss Cullen as a POM and I note that New Zealand was built on the efforts of its British ancestors.
But back to the issue at hand.
Liarbour plays a kind of race card that somehow means that if you attack what this government does, you are somehow unpatriotic.
All Brash did was point out that Cullen’s budget offers nothing to the country and will widen living standards beteen Australia and New Zealand.
Yet Liarbour attack Brash’s patriotism rather than selling the positives of their budget, assuming there are some.
I still love New Zealand as a great country. But it could be so much better. Alas, under this government it increasingly won’t be.
The reasons for my planned departure were covered on this blog about two weeks ago and Sage linked to them as well.
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May 30, 2006 5:07pm
Elsan Shoop

Using words like “Helengrad” is demeaning to the discusssion. It’s like the pisswinkles that insist on writing Clark with a “K”, I guess because they believe it looks more “kommunist”.

How about we lam into Helen Clark on policies and performance and get away from all this third-grade name-calling?

Or do you really wnmat to reduce NZ political commentary to the likes of
Peter unDunne?
Donald Trash?
Rodney Snide-come-Dancing?
Winston Petomane ? *
and any other playground sneers we can think about.

This is the language of the disasters that are nz.politics /nz.general in Usenet.

Unworthy.

cc

* Le Petomane was the French music hall artist that could sort of play tunes by blowing them out his ass.
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May 30, 2006 6:22pm
toby1845

I must say that I find it hilarious that any member of a party that gave us such well-known draft dodgers as Peter Fraser, Norman Kirk, et al should have the gall to accuse anyone of being unpatriotic. How many current Labour MPs have undertaken military service at home or abroad? (Then again, how many have ever created a job with their own money?)

Then again, Brash was foolish to respond in the way that he did. He would have been better to point out the hypocrisy of Duynhoven’s situation, as well as Cullen’s.
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May 30, 2006 6:26pm
Craig Ranapia

Redbaiter:

LOL… Don’t be such a sooky bitch – or are you another one of these sad losers who can’t take the smallest taste of their own medicine. I’ve had better bitch-slapdowns from children.

ll explain to you why Don Brash, flawed as he is, is always going to be a better man and more of a leader than you’ll ever be.

He’s willing to stand up and be counted for something. All you can do sit in the corner and anonymously shit on everyone and everything else – and when you’re challenged to stand up and tell us all what you’d do differently? Well, I guess that would require using your brain instead of your spleen so it’s back to your tired SOB. Have you ever considered that yout endless stream of shrill vindictive crap does more harm to the right than Don Brash ever could? Sorry, but most of us don’t live in your state of ideological purity and respond better to argument than childish invective .

Don’t get me wrong – you’re perfectly entitled to keep making a fool of yourself here as long as DPF allows you to. I certainly don’t think National or Don Brash is beyond criticism – just that you’re not worth listening to. You don’t like being called on your crap – that’s your problem, not mine.
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May 30, 2006 6:51pm
Kimble

“Winston Petomane”

I hope that sticks.

All that is just a pisstake on the left insistence on spelling Bush dollar signs, or America with 3 k’s.
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May 30, 2006 7:23pm
mick

Miss Clark portrays the standard socialist mind-set. She confuses the government with the country, and the will of the people with the will of the ruling party. When opposition to herself or her policy rears its unwelcome head, she responds according to type. Hermann Goering once stated that there was no incentive for the peasant or farmer to ever agree to go to war, as the most they could hope to gain was to go back to their pigs in one piece. They had to be supplied with a reason and the most compelling and easiest one was that anyone who did not agree was “unpatriotic and an enemy of Germany”

Nobody is being asked to go to war here, but there are enough people who see other countries as providing a better reward for their labours. They don’t dislike NZ, they do dislike it’s government.

What is being said is..

Helen, Michael, Phil, Trevor, Labour…get stuffed!

Brash has merely pointed this out.
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May 30, 2006 7:52pm
Redbaiter

These pathetic socialist robots that come on here and write screeds directing other posters as to how they should frame their comments without contributing one iota to the issue under discussion are so symbolic of the Stalinist rot that pervades this country. So unaware of how times have changed (thanks to the Internet) and haplessly still wanting to fight on terms the left have specified. Unconsciously bound by the politically correct chains the socialists forged for them in the seventies and determined to continue losing the way they’ve been losing for so long. Like the National Party, they still don’t understand the reason why NZ has fallen so completely into the thrall of a cheap bunch of sandal wearing commies, and that is that the left have gradually woven their politics into NZ’s culture. Snap out of it losers. Time to pick the threads undone.
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May 30, 2006 7:55pm
Ben Wilson

Craig, that’s not really you, now, is it? Got the blues?
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May 30, 2006 8:09pm
Paul W

Ben Wilson leave the man alone, Craig’s doing a wonderful job of taking out the trash… if there was a little keypad symbol for applause, I’d use it.
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May 30, 2006 9:06pm
burt

Darren the right leaning journo set to depart these shores. Don’t blame you Darren, must have been a lonely place for you to work. Sad to see you go, you contribution a few weeks back was wicked. Best of luck in AUS.
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May 30, 2006 9:07pm
mavxp

“Of course the people don’t want war. But after all, it’s the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.”

— Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

hmmm, attacking someone for lack of patriotism, when they dont agree with your policies. Not such a new technique it appears.
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May 31, 2006 12:01am
err...

“hmmm, attacking someone for lack of patriotism, when they dont agree with your policies. Not such a new technique it appears.”

No, it’s been the standard routine for any criticism of Bush since around 2001. I thought the right was big on that stuff? Or is that just when it has some power? It’s opposed the rest of the time?

As for Helen, playing the patriotism card in New Zealand seems kind of silly. Is she trying to win Winston some votes next time or something?
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May 31, 2006 6:36am
Craig Ranapia

Mavxp:

I’m tempted to invoke Godwin’s Law, because it’s a pretty standard political tactic to trot out the jingo as a weapon of mass distraction when you’re losing the argument. You don’t have to look any further than that Winston Peters or his political mentor and role model Rob Muldoon. Despite Redbaiter et. al.’s conniptions, it seems to me that Don Brash’s response was the right one – temperate, measured, and based on facts and figures rather than smears and sneers. You just can’t let that kind of sleaze go unanswered, but it’s equally wrong to go into OTT rhetorical meltdown. It might deliver a quick media fix, bur IMO it also turns off more people than it attracts.

Ben:
Down? Nah, I’m just having a violent allergic reaction to piss and vinegar flavoured wing-nuts (both the left- and the right-wing variety).
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May 31, 2006 6:44am
Bearhunter

Toby 1845 asks how many Labour MPs have fought for their country. Well perhaps he could tell me how many National MPs have served in Ngati Taumatenga? Colonel Brash? Brigadier Brownlee? And what the hell is this crap about draft-dodgers? There is no draft in NZ and whether there was in the past is irrelevant to the topic.
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May 31, 2006 8:52am
Ben Wilson

Craig, that’s why I leave all flavours of wingnut on the shelf. Consumer choice.
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May 31, 2006 9:21am
Ross Miller

I find this all somewhat sad …. to be bagged for stating the obivious. Well, half my family decided Aust was a better bet and, as highly trained professionals, that loss is Austs gain. And Labour’s dismissal of this as somehow ‘normal’ and of no consequence demonstrates a head-in-the-sand attitude that really worries.

What have we. A great country doing its level best to achieve second class status, led by a Party bereft of ideas save one … we know better than you.

For Bearhunter. Off the top of my head, three at least … Chris Auchinole; Richard Worth and Wayne Mapp.
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May 31, 2006 9:43am
Bearhunter

Ah, fair enough then consider me standing corrected. Still not sure what the hell army service has to do with runningthe country though. Unless you’re planning a coup.
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May 31, 2006 2:01pm
David

David, I’m surprised you dont list “Just Left” under Canadian Blogs
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May 31, 2006 2:43pm

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