General Debate 17 December 2014

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Keeping Stock

First!

It’s nice to get in early, before the normal suspects start to rant, rave and push their respective barrows.
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December 17, 2014 8:01am
duggledog

I really cannot understand this need to allow clearly dangerous, unhinged people out of prison or mental institutions to roam around unsupervised. Especially when said individual has form for disruption, anti social activity, violence, hatred etc etc.

Whoever is responsible when a catastrophe such as that in NSW, or the regular mayhem in NZ occurs, should at least address the general public to explain why they were put at risk.
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December 17, 2014 8:04am
Sofia

From yesterday, General Debate –

ANOTHER PUBLIC WATCHDOG – Cameron Slater?

The Boagan Who Wants To Steal Christmas
[Michelle Boag] is trying to get her mates Paula Bennett and Simon Bridges to NATIONALISE the Auckland Electricity Consumer Trust, the outfit that holds shares in trust for the people of Auckland and South Auckland and gives every family in Auckland and South Auckland a $335 Christmas dividend cheque each September.
… The plan is to give those Vector shares, worth about $2 billion, to Lyin’ Len Brown’s Council.  
– Cameron Slater
 http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/12/christmas-countdown-boagan-wants-steal-christmas-ten-dwarfs/#more-168097

and this morning –
Winston Peters, who would steal Cameron Slater’s news item –

Super City Grinches want our prize
… a group of people who want to get rid of the Auckland Energy Consumer Trust.
They want to take away from the people with Vector supply agreements in the old Auckland, Manukau and Papakura council areas an annual dividend that was worth $335 this year.
This may sound like chicken-feed to the well-heeled who now wish to dismantle the trust, but it means a great deal to the Aucklanders who receive it.

Around 80 per cent of the trust beneficiaries fall into the lowest two income tax rates. For many, this annual dividend payment is how they buy a new pair of shoes, pay their winter heating bill or buy Christmas gifts for their children or grandchildren …

If the Prime Minister is smart, he’ll keep well clear of this pile of acrid self-interest, especially when a online NBR poll showed an overwhelming 80 per cent of respondents viewed this proposal as “an outrageous act of expropriation”.
The question is this, will he?
– Winston Peters
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11374609

“If these people do get their way, they’ll steal $2.1 billion off present and future income beneficiaries over the next 60 years.
That means $2.1 billion will not flow into the community but will instead be given to those who didn’t build the asset in the first place.”

Most likely recipient – Pants Down Brown’s railway set?
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December 17, 2014 8:06am
Padriv Ustoev

I do not understand, gangs in New Zealand are criminals yes? The sell drugs, beat people up.
And then your communities and Police are very happy when the gangs do this?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/64225504/here-comes-the-christmas-gang

You’re such a laughable back water.
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December 17, 2014 8:09am
RF

duggledog. 8.04am.

Presume you are describing members of Labour, Greens, NZ First. Yes they are unhinged people.
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December 17, 2014 8:11am
Pete George

duggledog – one problem is that of many potentially dangerous people only a few take action. How many people do you think should be locked up or under constant supervision?

How many people do you think should be under surveillance when they get pissed? Drunken violence is a far more widespread problem than “unhinged people”.
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December 17, 2014 8:11am
duggledog

Pete: All of them. That’s what prisons and mental hospitals should be for.

You’re being obtuse, and amplifying my argument to fit into your narrative.

I am only wondering why psychos who preach hatred to their host nation, and who have serious convictions, are allowed to run around like our deceased man in Sydney. And those such as the Raurimu boy.
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December 17, 2014 8:15am
Tarquin North

I notice the Herald and damn near everyone else are going out of their way to describe the Sydney terrorist as a lone wolf. While this way well be true, I’m amazed they can jump to this conclusion so quickly. Then again I suppose they must know what they’re talking about, they seem to have no trouble debunking everything Mark Mitchell says about terrorists and he’s only got 10 years experience in the middle east.
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December 17, 2014 8:17am
EAD

@ Tarquin North,

It’d be quite funny if the matter wasn’t so funny.

I’m guessing ISIS is full of thousands of “lone wolfs”,

the Taliban that executed those school children? ……. 6 “lone wolves”.

Al Shabab that murdered all the people in the Mall? ……4 “lone wolves”.

Boko Haram and the School Girls – you guessed it “lone wolves”

Rape gangs in Rotheram – thousands of “lone wolves”.

Nothing in common for any of these “lone wolves”.

A bit like all of the “youths” that always riot in various inner cities around the Western World……

/sarc
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December 17, 2014 8:19am
Pete George

No I’m not duggledog. How much violence and murder involves connections to religion or politics compared to how much violence and murder involves connections to alcohol?
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December 17, 2014 8:21am
mikenmild

duggledog
You know the ‘Raurimu boy’ is out and living in the community now, don’t you?
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December 17, 2014 8:24am
Linvoice

duggledog
Not sure why you got a down tick for that comment..at 8.24…someone please explain?
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December 17, 2014 8:31am
IGM

The Muslim apologists are saturating print, air, and Tv. Thank goodness it will have no influence on what is thought of these murderous mongrels. Those that are supportive of them will be shat on just as those who have given them jobs and housing. They are not worth a blurt.
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December 17, 2014 8:31am
hj

Kenan Malik

“But the new Britain has created a new set of problems and anxieties. The transformation of Britain has taken place not so much because minorities have come to be treated as everyone else but more because, in a way, everyone else has come to be treated like minorities. In the postwar years immigrants were seen as different and therefore a threat to Britishness. Today difference has become the lingua franca of politics and, indeed, of Britishness itself.”
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December 17, 2014 8:32am
Simon

“I really cannot understand this need to allow clearly dangerous, unhinged people out of prison or mental institutions ”

This will help explain

http://annaraccoon.com/2014/12/16/fierce-pearce-and-the-fake-sheikh/
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December 17, 2014 8:39am
G152

So the religion of peace murdered more than 100 schoolkids and no doubt
next week their followers will try to exceed this barbaric act.
About time the world took these maniacs out.
Kid killing in the name of allah the pedo
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December 17, 2014 8:39am
waikatogirl

Good socialism, everyone has the same income whether earn’t or not, treated the same and gets to have their say.

I see the wharfees at Lyttelton are on strike today. As well as demanding increased pay,etc they also want a say in how the port is run.

I forget, isn’t that why they get paid, so they can do as requested on the job?
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December 17, 2014 8:43am
Nookin

With all that is going on in the world, it is comforting to know that ODT has its priorities right. Headline news on the front page is the abduction of a couple of guinea pigs.

On another note, it is sad to see Edward John (Jack) Hazlett pass away.
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December 17, 2014 8:44am
All_on_Red

Tarquin North
Yep, look at what Tim Watkins at Pundit says. He twists it all to attack John Key
http://www.pundit.co.nz/content/tone-it-down-john-sydney-seige-words-seem-self-serving

In contrast to Andrew Bolt

“MAN Haron Monis couldn’t have done more to make the deaf hear that the terror he unleashed in Sydney was in the name of Islam.
As he walked into the Lindt coffee shop with his shotgun on Monday he wore a headband bearing the war cry: “We are ready to sacrifice for you, O Muhammad.”
The Iranian-born cleric had already fought for Islam by sending jeering letters to the families of Australian soldiers killed in Afghanistan.
On his Facebook page he’d posted jihadist porn and pledged his allegiance to the bloody caliphate of the Islamic State.
And in that coffee shop on Monday he conscripted his terrified hostages at gunpoint into his personal jihad.
He ordered some to hold up against the window a black Shahada flag announcing: “There is no god but Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.”
He made videos of three of them reciting his demands, which included ordering police to fetch him an Islamic State flag and have broadcast this explanation: “This is an attack on Australia by Islamic State.”
And then he killed two captives.
I don’t know how much more explicit Monis could have been.
And I don’t know how more wilfully deaf some people can be.”
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December 17, 2014 8:48am
Viking2

Keeping Stock (9,362 comments) says:
December 17th, 2014 at 8:01 am

First!

It’s nice to get in early, before the normal suspects start to rant, rave and push their respective barrows.
———————————————-

Ha “lol:
The difference being yours rather than theirs.
Perhaps we won’t mention the National Govt. and its poor record today!
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December 17, 2014 8:49am
mikenmild

waikatogirl
Maybe the wharfies just want some of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_democracy
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December 17, 2014 8:52am
Redbaiter

Detroit is the jewel in the Progressive crown. Watch what happens there for it will happen everywhere this destructive political force gains ascendancy.

DETROIT (WWJ/AP) – A published report says dozens of suspected killers, rapists and others who were arrested by Detroit police over the past four years have been released because of a backlog of unsigned warrants. Among the unsigned warrants at the Wayne County Prosecutor’s Office are 21 for murder, including one going back to 2010, according to a report in the Detroit News. The newspaper says there are 105 for sexual assault and 126 for child abuse.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/12/16/report-dozens-of-suspected-killers-rapists-released-in-detroit-due-to-warrant-backlog/
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December 17, 2014 8:55am
Viking2

duggledog (1,617 comments) says:
December 17th, 2014 at 8:15 am

Pete: All of them. That’s what prisons and mental hospitals should be for.

You’re being obtuse, and amplifying my argument to fit into your narrative.

I am only wondering why psychos who preach hatred to their host nation, and who have serious convictions, are allowed to run around like our deceased man in Sydney. And those such as the Raurimu boy.
————————————

Well you are a sick prick sometimes.
Stephen Anderson was a mentally ill person when he committed his crime. Its was not a premeditated and planned crime of a sane person.
With supervision and the right medicine he has been able to live at least a productive life until an arsewipe like yourself came along to undo all the work done by our mental heath people. These things can be done but the act cannot be undone.

One day it might be you with that boot on. Should we lock you up forever and throw away the key or would you like our system to bring some normality back to your life? And don’t say it can’t or won’t happen to you. You have no idea.
Please tell us all now so we can record your answer and pass it to the Mental Health people.
Shit for brain.

P.S. I don’t know said Steven Anderson nor have I had anything to do with him but I’m happy the Mental Health can do these things for people.
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December 17, 2014 8:59am
Blue Koru

Laila is off on a sponging tour – tell her what you really think!

Sugar daddy’s money has dried up, but Laila still craves the adulation and wants to convince herself she’s still relevant.
So she, a well off woman, is off on a sponging tour of the country. She’s not taking any money because that’s what evil capitalists use, and she wants to use yours rather than her own.

Here’s the website:
http://www.rethinkthesystem.org/

Here’s where you can offer to help, or make other relevant comments.
http://www.rethinkthesystem.org/#!host-offers/c20x9
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December 17, 2014 9:00am
Redbaiter

Poorly educated and ill trained Progressives posing as reporters and journalists but in reality working to advance their political faction have destroyed our news media. Now they’re getting what they’ve had coming for a long time.

Job cuts at the New York Times will exceed the stated goal of 100 newsroom positions eliminated, the Newspaper Guild of New York said yesterday in a memo to union members.

According to the guild, the Times said yesterday it will lay off 21 union-represented employees starting as early as today, after 57 guild members and roughly 30 non-guild members accepted buyout applications. That amounts to more than the 100 newsroom positions the newspaper said it needed to eliminate as a cost-cutting measure on Oct. 1.

http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/media/2014/12/8558620/layoffs-begin-today-emthe-new-york-timesem/
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December 17, 2014 9:03am
Michael

An Irish joke.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/64215733/Irish-driver-up-the-creek-over-kayak-on-car
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December 17, 2014 9:04am
Redbaiter

This is what the left wing call progress-

In 1969, the average participation in the United States food stamps program stood at 2,878,000. In 2014, average participation grew to 46,536,000 showing an increase of 1516.96 percent.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/food-stamp-beneficiaries-exceed-46000000-37-straight-months

Similar figures exist in respect of NZ welfare programs. In fact all across the west and in every country where socialism/ progressivism has found a foot hold.
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December 17, 2014 9:07am
dime

red – they don’t call Obama the foodstamp president for nothing!

it seems that getting people to kick their addiction to government is on par with trying to kick meth!
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December 17, 2014 9:15am
Redbaiter

More multi-culturalist madness. Man in Oregon charges police with knife and is shot dead. Police now under fire for failing to warn the dead man in his native language, Spanish.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2014/12/should_oregon_police_issue_com.html#incart_most-comments
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December 17, 2014 9:15am
Redbaiter

it seems that getting people to kick their addiction to government is on par with trying to kick meth!

Yeah, with the same kind of odious degenerates selling the product in either case.
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December 17, 2014 9:17am
mikenmild

‘addiction to government’
Symptoms include voting.
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December 17, 2014 9:17am
OneTrack

Tarquin – “I notice the Herald and damn near everyone else are going out of their way to describe the Sydney terrorist as a lone wolf. While this may well be true, I’m amazed they can jump to this conclusion so quickly.

If he can’t be explained away as a “lone wolf”, then that would present a challenge to the lefties (Herald) ideology. Their ideology always wins, hence they jump through verbal hoops to protect it.
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December 17, 2014 9:19am
Pete George

In one of the least surprising poll results of the year Public Address has named their word of the year as #dirtypolitics. That reflects an obsession in a bubble.

‘Dirty Politics’ has certainly been prominent this year – in some circles. Most of the public see it differently, ‘dirty politics’ is synonymous with ‘politics’ and it has been for many more years than 2014.

“I can only suppose that a hacker has penetrated the special Google voting software,” said a near-comatose Brown. “I’ve asked Pete George to investigate.”

No investigation needed. When a blog shuts out alternative opinions it is likely to get a poll result like this. Russell banned me for debating dirty politics and challenging Nicky Hager’s perfect record of never being proven wrong (as claimed on Public Address).

Russell also took a swipe at DPF.

I mean, Jason Ede and Phil de Joux have new jobs, Judith Collins has a newspaper column, David Farrar has returned to his familiar role of providing an internet platform for scary racists and bigots – and confused, mendacious Taxpayers’ Union press releases are being pasted into newspaper stories again.

Farrar’s moderation policy of not censoring opinions does allow some fairly extreme views to be expressed.

Is that any dirtier than shutting out opinions you don’t agree with?

#dirty politics may be an appropriate word of the year for the New Zealand blogosphere, but using “Word of the Year” as a vehicle to continue a political campaign may be as self revealing as it is accusatory.
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December 17, 2014 9:22am
itstricky

but using “Word of the Year” as a vehicle to continue a political campaign may be as self revealing as it is accusatory.

DPF has started using #dirtypolitics himself, so I’m not really sure your “concerns” are valid.

Dirty Politics in Australia with the Australian Greens conducting a witch hunt against academics who have ever done work for the Institute of Public Affairs or the Centre for Independent Studies:
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December 17, 2014 9:25am
mikenmild

Ouch. Banned from commenting on Hard News, eh? Bet that doesn’t happen too often, although Brown does seem more active in participating in discussion threads than DPF.
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December 17, 2014 9:27am
BeaB

Yesterday on Jim Mora’s panel Tim Watkins said, to paraphrase, that people’s privacy should be protected but it was okay to hack into Whaleoil or Sony because he didn’t like them and Sony made too much money. The Panel all agreed.
In other words, to the Left your privacy is important only if you are one of them.
What an ominous sign of what a Labour Givernment might do.
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December 17, 2014 9:30am
mikenmild

‘World Cup’s not everything, says All Blacks coach Steve Hansen’
Sorry Steve, it’s the only thing.
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December 17, 2014 9:31am
Redbaiter

The sheep in Germany are starting to metamorphize into people at last.

Fifteen thousand people marched in the eastern German city of Dresden on Monday (15 December) in protest against “asylum cheaters” and the rising “Islamisation” of the West.

Marking a 50% rise in attendance since the demonstration last Monday, the founder of the Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamisation of the Occident (PEGIDA), Lutz Bachmann, addressed the protestors saying:

“The people are with us! Everywhere now, in every news rag, on every senseless talk show, they are debating, and the most important thing is: the politicians can no longer ignore us! We have shown by taking another ‘little stroll’, and by growing in numbers, that we’re on the right path, and that slowly, very slowly, something is beginning to change in this country.”

A marcher said “We don’t want a flood of asylum seekers, we don’t want Islamisation. We want to keep our country with our values. Is that so terrible? Does that make us Nazis? Is it a crime to be a patriot?”

The protesters chanted, “we are the people,” a phrase heard over a quarter century back by East Germany pro-democracy protesters before the fall of the Berlin Wall.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/germany-15000-join-anti-islam-protest-dresden-1479659

Here in NZ they’re still good little baa baas.
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December 17, 2014 9:31am
Viking2

Days before Uber.

https://www.facebook.com/624647914290150/photos/ms.c.eJwzNzE0NDY3M7U0NjC3MDHUMwfxLQwtQHxzCwsAZToGXA~-~-.bps.a.739777399443867.1073741834.624647914290150/741137659307841/?type=1&theater
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December 17, 2014 9:32am
kowtow

michael

Irish joke. Yes he’s a thicko. It’s interesting though how his nationality seems to be rlevant to the story. It is still more than acceptable for the MSM to be racist when it is a white race involved .

I think it’s a sick joke seeing so many people obviously texting while driving.
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December 17, 2014 9:33am
Pete George

itstricky – DPF uses the term in a more general way, Brown et al have tried to depict ‘Dirty Politics’ as John Key bad, the left clean.

mikenmild – a number of core commenters on Hard News showed how soft they are, they didn’t like their ‘Nicky is God’ meme being challenged and Russell ensured an alternative view was shut out. The Public Address vote on Word of the year reflects a message controlled community view.
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December 17, 2014 9:34am
dime

“‘addiction to government’
Symptoms include voting.”

oh no, my statement has been torpedoed by milky! dang nam it!

Symptoms include – addiction to welfare, addiction to middle class welfare, addiction to “free” things the govt hands out..

but more confusing – the belief that only government can keep us safe with things like building consents. i mean with the almighty government looking after us and charging 50k a home for permission to build on our own land, things like leaky homes could never happen!

things like WOF’s – cause without that being a law, people wouldnt get their cars checked and we would all die 🙁

Dime could rant for hours. its just sad that people are so weak, that people have such little faith in others, that we think we need huge government.
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December 17, 2014 9:35am
dime

“‘World Cup’s not everything, says All Blacks coach Steve Hansen’
Sorry Steve, it’s the only thing.”

yeah, id expect that from you milky.
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December 17, 2014 9:36am
mikenmild

If the ABs don’t defend their title successfully, their wins over the last three years will seem relatively unimpressive. The World Cup is the ultimate prize, its shine casts everything else into shadow.
Next year, they have a chance at the ultimate – be the first team to defend the title successfully. It will be hard, but that’s what you have to aspire to if you want to be at the top.
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December 17, 2014 9:38am
mikenmild

Leaky homes, dime? Don’t you recall that was the consequence from deregulating the building industry in the 1990s?
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December 17, 2014 9:43am
kowtow

nookin

To be fair to the ODT thye real headline in the print version is “Australia changed forever”,taken from the LA Times.Page 3 also carries another related story.

Sadly the thrust is as already covered,lone wolf and it appears the gummint is to blame for its humanitarian intervenion in Iraq.

The point should be made though that why would an Iranian care about Iraq?

Answer; because so many Muslims identify,and are called to identify ,not with national issues but with Islamic issues. In Islam loyalty to the ummah or brotherhood ,established by Mohammed, takes primacy over all other issues. That is one of the factors that made Islam so succesful over the years. It goes beyond family ,tribal , local or national loyalties that are important to other groups and creates a new sense of identity ,a Muslim one.

Another reason it is incompatible with western values.
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December 17, 2014 9:43am
Redbaiter

Ted Cruz and Mike Smith stood firm against funding Obama’s treason while the rest of the Republican Party led by Speaker John Boehner folded in weakness and surrender. Now the RINOS in control want to run pathetic establishment clowns like Jeb Bush and or Mitt Romney for President. If they don’t watch it, a third party is likely to arise.

Mark Levin tells the Republican Party what traitors they are, and I have to wonder when NZ will awaken to the fact that the National Party is betraying NZ the same way the Republicans are betraying the US.

http://therightscoop.com/boom-ted-cruz-they-want-to-come-after-me-knock-yourself-out-my-concern-is-honoring-oath-of-office/
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December 17, 2014 9:44am
dime

“Leaky homes, dime? Don’t you recall that was the consequence from deregulating the building industry in the 1990s?”

so during that time, there were no building consents? at all? interesting..
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December 17, 2014 9:45am
Kimbo

@ milkenmild

If the ABs don’t defend their title successfully, their wins over the last three years will seem relatively unimpressive. The World Cup is the ultimate prize, its shine casts everything else into shadow.

Sadly, very true.

Did anyone in 1999 remember that John Hart had coached the first series-winning All Black team in South Africa three years before? Hell, we were so desperate to win over there we gutlessly sent three teams that excluded a portion of New Zealanders on the basis of their race, inspired national protest first over the “No Maori, No tour issue”, then over apartheid in general. An All Black tour was the subject of an Olympic boycott, and then when they were finally legally stymied, the need for a New Zealand rugby team to win in South Africa inspired an infamous rebel tour.

In 1996 when we won old All Blacks like Don Clarke, who had been there before and lost, wept in the stands, and great All Blacks back here in New Zealand like Bob Scott, Colin Meads and Bryan Williams finally slept the sleep of the avenged.

And yet three years later it counted for nothing…
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December 17, 2014 9:47am
Redbaiter

Peter George-

I am sure Russell Brown would have a different story as to why you were banned from Hard News. I doubt it was merely for dissent. You’ve been banned from other forums and always claim that as the reason, but in fact its because your debating style, like Shawn Herles’, depends upon constantly misrepresenting what others say and or believe. You can only go so far with that kind of BS until people get utterly pissed off.
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December 17, 2014 9:48am
dime

kimbo – so youre saying straight after a loss at a world cup, what we did 3 years earlier didnt mean much? lol no shit.

however, we look back at 96 now with pride and happiness. most of us do anyway. it doesnt come with an *

*3 years later the same team (with a bunch of different players) lost a world cup.

in 2040 when we look back at the current team, it will be – they went on a world record run of winning test matches, equalling the previous total set by SA and the all blacks etc once again, there wont be an *

*but they lost the next world cup so lets not give a fuck.
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December 17, 2014 9:51am
mikenmild

dime
Didn’t you know we had some private consenting authorities in the 1990s? I think they all went bust just like the shonky developers. The councils were left holding the baby of a regulatory disaster. Funny how it is always the people’s representatives that have to clean up the mess.
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December 17, 2014 9:53am
dime

“Didn’t you know we had some private consenting authorities in the 1990s? I think they all went bust just like the shonky developers. The councils were left holding the baby of a regulatory disaster. Funny how it is always the people’s representatives that have to clean up the mess.”

so it was all the fault of “some” .. and the answer is.. wait for it.. more government? lol

give me strength
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December 17, 2014 9:55am
Pete George

@Redbaiter “but in fact its because your debating style depends upon constantly misrepresenting what others say and or believe”

Very funny.

There’s no facts in that claim, only irony.
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December 17, 2014 9:59am
Redbaiter

So what does Russell Brown claim as the reason for banning you?
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December 17, 2014 10:01am
Kimbo

@ dime

*3 years later the same team (with a bunch of different players) lost a world cup.

in 2040 when we look back at the current team, it will be – they went on a world record run of winning test matches, equalling the previous total set by SA and the all blacks etc once again, there wont be an *

In 2011 I had the pleasure of attending a function where the great Phillipe Sella in the week before the Rugby World Cup final spoke about the difference between France and New Zealand when it comes to rugby.

(BTW – was there ever a better centre than Sella? I’d credit BJ Robertson, Mike Gibson, Danie Gerber, and Tim Horan as his equals, but better?)

Anyway, Sella spelled out the difference:

“In France we remember our wins. In New Zealand you remember your losses”

The day that changes we become just another rugby nation…
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December 17, 2014 10:03am
Pete George

You’ll have to ask him.
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December 17, 2014 10:03am
Manolo

Come on, Redbaiter. The ineffable P.G. is never wrong and always speaks the truth when comes to the prevalent rape culture in NZ, the greatness of Peter Dunne, the delights of sitting on the fence, and any subject under the sun.

Not in vain he is known as the Oracle of Dunedin.
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December 17, 2014 10:05am
mikenmild

dime
Just pointing out the ‘government’ problem with the leaky homes might not be all that you imagine. And yes, re-regulating the industry has proved to be successful.
It’s been a very expensive lesson for ratepayers, taxpayers and individual homeowners.
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December 17, 2014 10:05am
mikenmild

What were the most memorable NZ matches between 1988 and 2010? I’d wager that the final loss in 1995, the semi-final losses in 1991, 1999 and 2003, and the quarter-final loss in 2007 rank right up there with the biggest of AB wins.
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December 17, 2014 10:08am
Redbaiter

Not in vain he is known as the Oracle of Dunedin.

Yep, and he knows why Russell Brown banned him too.

Significant that he won’t repeat it here.
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December 17, 2014 10:08am
Pete George

A world cup (in any sport) is quite different to year to year fixtures and results.

The winner of a world cup is the team that was good enough to win plus managed the tournament successfully. And it can swing on one single action or decision, for example a missed forward pass can be a decisive factor.

Like in other sports there are two quite separate measures – a once in four year winner of a tournament, and a ranking that measures results over a much longer period.
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December 17, 2014 10:09am
jcuk

IMO NZ had a responsible system of government with regard to building houses but due to pressure from the industry this was relaxed to a wishey washey system with no clear rules. I built my first house in 1967-8 when I knw little or nothing about building by simply following the rules set out in the building code …. thirty years later I built my second remembering those rules becuase otherwise I wouldn’t have known what to do.

The leaky building saga was caused by the freedom to experiment and build houses unsuitable to our climate with unproven materials by unskilled workers … instead of people who had gone through a proper training routine and knew more than just their own specialised function.
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December 17, 2014 10:13am
Kimbo

@ Pete George

A world cup (in any sport) is quite different to year to year fixtures and results.

The winner of a world cup is the team that was good enough to win plus managed the tournament successfully. And it can swing on one single action or decision, for example a missed forward pass can be a decisive factor.

Like in other sports there are two quite separate measures – a once in four year winner of a tournament, and a ranking that measures results over a much longer period.

Yes. The “best team in the world” doesn’t necessarily win a World Cup, be it at rugby, football or cricket. They are just the team that won a one-off tournament (albeit that everyone has been building towards for four years).

However, what would most followers of the sport take if they had the choice: –

Universally recognised as the best team in the world such as the Dutch football team in the 1970s, the South African ODI cricket for the last 20-odd years, or the All Blacks for the last 27 years except for maybe 1991-94 and 1998-2003? (and even then their record in those “bad” years would be considered satisfactory in any other rugby country).

Or World Cup champions?

For most it is a no-brainer. You want the big prize. Anyone really care about world rankings, or player and coaches of the year?! Thin gruel if you don’t win the piece of tin that matters…
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December 17, 2014 10:19am
Nookin

Kowtow
To be fair, you are quite correct.

The juxtaposition was truly noticeable, however.
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December 17, 2014 10:22am
wikiriwhis business

Food for thought people….If the TPPA is allowed,instances of cancer etc will rise substantially.Due to deregulation and laxed control of our laws to suit corporate greed

Have you watched Robyn O’Brien’s Tedx talk?

It’s about how food can impact our reality in ways that we never considered. And this is a MUST SEE for mums.

And for those of you who don’t know what ‪#‎GMOs‬ are, Robyn is a really really good person to learn from.

‪#‎labelGMOs‬ ‪#‎organic‬ ‪#‎righttoknow‬ ‪#‎stopdarkact‬ ‪#‎getthefacts‬
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December 17, 2014 10:23am
hj

This explains Labour elite

Changes in attitudes towards immigrant groups that have occurred over
the past several decades are, however, rather more complex than simply
multiculturalism versus assimilation into the dominant Anglo culture
(Hage, 1995). At the core of this complexity is an important class consider-
ation. Dixson (1999: 33) argues that Anglo society in European Australia,
from its late 18th-century beginnings until the mid-20th-century or so, was
dominated by the lower-middle (working) and middle classes. But with the
onset of global economic restructuring from the mid-1970s and the decline
of the manufacturing sector, there has been a shift away from the lower-
middle and middle-class basis of Anglo dominance in favour of a new
managerial-professional class based on the new knowledge economy. These
constitute part of what Hage (1995: 44) refers to as ‘cosmo-multiculturalists’:
people like Keating, who acted to undermine the traditional class base of
the Anglo privilege position, only, perhaps without realizing it in Keating’s
case, to replace it with another. Thus Hage (1995: 63) argues that the cosmo-
multiculturalism of the new class replaces, but continues, the Eurocentric
form of the earlier Australo-British working and middle class, except that it
has been changed by migration in a post-White Australia society, and increasingly turns to Asia as the UK moves ever deeper into the European
Community.
As Betts argues, a deep divide has emerged:

between professionally-educated internationalists and cosmopolitans (people who are attracted to the wider world of ‘overseas’ . . .) and the much larger numbers of lower-class parochials who value the [pre-existing] character of their national home . . . (1999: 3)

So, while the ‘parochials’ among the working- and middle-class Anglos have
experienced ‘decline of control’, there has been a shift to a new privileged
Anglo group (Hage, 1995: 62). This was accompanied by a change from
an assimilationist perspective to that of the newly dominant cosmo-
multiculturalists, where Anglo privilege is no longer central, does not aim
to control the immigrant presence, yet creates an opening within the
dominant imaginary in which non-Anglo Australians can be included.
Nevertheless, the new cosmo-multiculturalist class is in practice more
cosmopolitan than multicultural, having little involvement with, or concern
for, dominantly working-class immigrant groups and remaining culturally
inclined to Australo-British hegemony.

http://www.uws.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/29645/A23.pdf

and a lot of those professionals would be working for the local visa factory?
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December 17, 2014 10:25am
Pete George

Yes of course everyone wants to win the big prize, the ultimate bragging right. But being dominant in between is worth aspiring to as well.

It’s good to see that Sevens has become very competitive with any of quite a few teams capable of winning any tournament. It will be a tough contest at the Olympics, which for Sevens has become the ultimate prize.
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December 17, 2014 10:26am
Nookin

mikenmild

You have an overwhelming obligation to attend all rallies convened by or on behalf of the crusading pimpernel from Auckland and to report to your fellow bloggers on the second coming. I truly trust that the public service will be closing all operations in order to enable you to attend.
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December 17, 2014 10:27am
Odakyu-sen

Oh great.

It’s gray, windy and rainy here in Auckland, and the conversation turns to “leaky buildings.”

So, on lighter note, how is everyone going to spend Christmas day? Is anyone going to put on a BBQ?

How are you going to avoid putting on too many kgs this year? (I have to remember to keep away from roast pork crackling.)

I hope my wife will make a Japanese Christmas cake again this year Ref: http://www.punipunijapan.com/japanese-christmas-cakes/
(These are totally different from the British heavy fruitcake variety.)
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December 17, 2014 10:27am
James Stephenson

How are you going to avoid putting on too many kgs this year?

Defining “too many” in a sensible fashion, say >10kgs. That should cover it.
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December 17, 2014 10:30am
Kimbo

@ milkenmild

What were the most memorable NZ matches between 1988 and 2010? I’d wager that the final loss in 1995, the semi-final losses in 1991, 1999 and 2003, and the quarter-final loss in 2007 rank right up there with the biggest of AB wins.

Yep.

To even it up I’d also rank the following:

3rd test vs Aussie in Sydney, 1988. An utterly complete and perfect performance.

Semi-final vs England at Cape Town in 1995. rguably the most important game of rugby ever played. Rupert Murdoch sees Jonah storm over the top of Mike Catt, and says, “I’ve got to have that guyQ” and professional rugby is born

Win over Wallabies at the old Athletic Park 1996. Another utterly dominant and perfect game in appalling conditions.

Win over Springboks in Cape Town, 1996. We were down 6-18 with 20 minutes to go, and had not scored a try against the Boks in nearly 4 test matches. No All Black team had ever come back against the Boks in such a situation. Yet we came storming back like the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. Sweetest moment was when Mehrtens threw a double cut-out pass that found Cullen coming into the line perfectly, who flicked it to Glenn Osborne coming off his wing on the angle for a converted try under the bar to take the lead 19-18. At that moment we destroyed South Africa’s traditional mastery over us, and we have never relinquished it. Final score was 29-18

Two weeks later the series win in Pretoria. Mopping up after Cape Town.

Win over Wallabies in Sydney 2000. The one we jumped out to a 21-0 lead after 6 minutes, yet were behind at half time, then again in the last minute until Jonah sealed the deal.

The 2nd test against the Lions at Wellington in 2005. Dan Carter sublime.

The semi-final win over the Wallabies at 2011 World Cup

The win over South Africa at Ellis Park in 2013 – and our loss there this year too. Two of the best games of rugby you will ever see, and a testament to what is possible when coaches and players decide they are going to play, rather than try and cheat at the breakdown.
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December 17, 2014 10:36am
dime

“And yes, re-regulating the industry has proved to be successful.
It’s been a very expensive lesson for ratepayers, taxpayers and individual homeowners.”

and therein lies the problem. addicted to government. “something went wrong, the govt and council needs to bail me out” urgh
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December 17, 2014 10:50am
dime

PG – saw this pop up in my twitter feed and thought of you (not taking the piss).

I haven’t had a chance to listen to it yet but this guy usually makes some solid points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9s5H-RNjxY
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December 17, 2014 10:51am
Ashley Schaeffer

Odakyu-sen (836 comments) says:
December 17th, 2014 at 10:27 am
How are you going to avoid putting on too many kgs this year?

I’m not. I’m going to embrace them like old friends.
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December 17, 2014 10:55am
mikenmild

dime
What went wrong was the government removing the previous building regulations. Havoc followed.
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December 17, 2014 11:03am
Mark

Two dairy farmers (husband and wife) have been fined 20,000 each for not wearing helmets while riding quad bikes. They had been warned on numerous occasions it seems so a prosecution was appropriate it seems. But the fine is completely disproportionate. Lets see a truck driver not wearing his seat belt – fine $150, a repeat drunk driver max fine $6,000, and a farmer not wearing a helmet on his quad bike on his own farm $20,000. Something appears out of proportion here
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December 17, 2014 11:05am
dime

“dime
What went wrong was the government removing the previous building regulations. Havoc followed.”

ah ok. so the government changed rules on how they govern.. they didnt get rid of all government involvement?

so govt can get it wrong, we admit it gets really costly but they get to have chance after chance.. but if the private sector gets something wrong, thats them fucked forever and we can never try again.. even though they have a lot more to lose when they get it wrong.. eg no free money.
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December 17, 2014 11:13am
Redbaiter

Something appears out of proportion here

Yep, and this over the top statist BS will be supported by many on here, while you will find them elsewhere saying harsh penalties are not a deterrent to crime.

You see this is not really about not wearing a helmet.

Its about quashing rebellion.

The farmers dared to openly oppose and rebel against govt policy. IOW, they committed a thought crime. Its that thought crime that earned them the $20,000 fine.

The message is sent out with the idea of reminding all potential rebels- do not dare to think differently, or govt will come after you.

And of course they do not mean just helmets. They mean everything.
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December 17, 2014 11:21am
oldpark

Phil Goff found guilty ” AGAIN ” his punishment ,nothing. everyone knows he is a manifest serial liar. He is so bent when he dies he wont be buried, he will be screwed into the ground. His whole life has been a lie, his punishment when found out, he is from the left of politics ,running concurrently with the union infested Labour Party and NZs Main Stream Media,whose persistent track records are to lie, lie lie. Goff is in that category,what an indictment.
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December 17, 2014 11:21am
Pete George

Russell Brown has just posted:

Truth is, I finally had to ban Pete on account of him being a tendentious windbag apparently immune to reason.

As I said, he didn’t like me contesting Hard Talk ‘reason’ and providing proof against claims made there that Nicky Hager had never been proven wrong in any of his books.
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December 17, 2014 11:27am
Redbaiter

Ok PG, so “tendentious windbag” doesn’t specifically mean you misrepresented the views of others but it doesn’t exclude it either.
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December 17, 2014 11:34am
Ashley Schaeffer

Mark (1,502 comments) says:
December 17th, 2014 at 11:05 am
Two dairy farmers (husband and wife) have been fined 20,000 each for not wearing helmets while riding quad bikes. They had been warned on numerous occasions it seems so a prosecution was appropriate it seems. But the fine is completely disproportionate. Lets see a truck driver not wearing his seat belt – fine $150, a repeat drunk driver max fine $6,000, and a farmer not wearing a helmet on his quad bike on his own farm $20,000. Something appears out of proportion here

Wow, that’s disgusting really. What a sad joke Judge Tony Zohrab is. What sad joke WorkSafe is. Big Government in action.
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December 17, 2014 11:43am
Pete George

No Redbaiter, I was providing arguments and facts that disproved claims that misrepresented reality.
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December 17, 2014 11:45am
Kimbo

No Redbaiter, I was providing arguments and facts that disproved claims that misrepresented reality.

As we all like to fool ourselves we do.

With the notable exception of dime, who has the priceless capacity not to take himself or his posts too seriously.

it’s his blog, Pete – he can kick you off if he likes. And more to the point, who enters into “dialogue” with a propagandist (and a rather arrogant one at that) like Russell Brown expecting troublesome things like facts that will contradict his views will be welcomed, let alone acknowledged?
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December 17, 2014 11:53am
Shawn Herles

As I said, he didn’t like me contesting Hard Talk ‘reason’ and providing proof against claims made there that Nicky Hager had never been proven wrong in any of his books.

Good for you Pete. So basically you were banned for challenging the Left’s narrative about Hager. Not surprised, Russell Brown has always struck me as the kind of Leftist to whom free speech means you have to agree and never challenge.

Oh, and I have never known you to misrepresent anyone.
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December 17, 2014 11:56am
Kimbo

Oh, and I have never known you to misrepresent anyone.

Yeah, I’ll grant you that about Pete.

Although he can obfuscate and rationalise with the best of them.

Sorry to have a go at you, Pete, but you did rather make yourself and your blogging record the subject of “general debate”.
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December 17, 2014 11:59am
Rachael Membery

dime (10,194 comments) says:

December 17th, 2014 at 10:51 am

Thanks for that, very interesting.
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December 17, 2014 12:02pm
Redbaiter

Oh, and I have never known you to misrepresent anyone.

As if you’ve ever shown the slightest awareness of that irritating and deceptive habit.
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December 17, 2014 12:06pm
Redbaiter

Gee, GD was operating well today.
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December 17, 2014 12:07pm
wikiriwhis business

Congratulations to Finance Minister Bill English who is on the brink of making modern political history by running the most consecutive deficits – surpassing Robert Muldoon and Roger Douglas!

Thanks to their strong economic management, National is on track for a record seventh consecutive deficit, and $49 billion of new debt!

http://bit.ly/1zjkohZ
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December 17, 2014 12:12pm
Pete George

Kimbo – I know it’s Russell’s blog and he can do what he likes on it.

And I can do what I like pointing the irony of him dissing DPF for allowing extreme comments on Kiwiblog (aka free speech) while won’t tolerate debate against his views on ‘dirty politics’ (an irony that seems to escape him).

There’s plenty that can be criticised here but it is one blog that stands above most others when it comes to allowing and even debating field.

It’s pretty gutless talking tough on your own blog while blocking people from holding you to account. Russell isn’t as prominent with that as Slater and Prentice but he’s in the same camp.
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December 17, 2014 12:17pm
dime

“And I can do what I like pointing the irony of him dissing DPF for allowing extreme comments on Kiwiblog (aka free speech) while won’t tolerate debate against his views on ‘dirty politics’ (an irony that seems to escape him).”

im please you make this point.. for the 700th time. riveting stuff.
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December 17, 2014 12:21pm
Kimbo

@ Pete George

And I can do what I like pointing the irony of him dissing DPF for allowing extreme comments on Kiwiblog (aka free speech) while won’t tolerate debate against his views on ‘dirty politics’ (an irony that seems to escape him).

There’s plenty that can be criticised here but it is one blog that stands above most others when it comes to allowing and even debating field.

It’s pretty gutless talking tough on your own blog while blocking people from holding you to account. Russell isn’t as prominent with that as Slater and Prentice but he’s in the same camp.

Yet for some reason, as with Imperator Fish, it always seems to be you who is blocked. Does that at least open up the possibility that at least part the problem could be you? Not a pleasant thought to contemplate, I know, but just throwing it out there. Especially as many of us no doubt in your opinion are part of the “There’s plenty that can be criticised here…”. Maybe Russell Brown is not the only one blind to “the irony”.

Still such is the lot of those who seek to “hold to account” others, especially in the mad free-fall feral world of blogging. Still, at least you and Penny get free rein to try and hold us all to account here.

How’s it going, by the way? And do you get a sheriff’s badge?
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December 17, 2014 12:26pm
RRM

More rag head cowards… 130-odd kids shot dead in school in Pakistan:

http://www.news.com.au/world/taliban-storm-school-in-pakistan-in-revenge-attack/story-fndir2ev-1227158815682
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December 17, 2014 12:30pm
Pete George

I know I piss people off. Some of that (probably quite a bit) is I am deemed to be of a particular political leaning and despised for that regardless of what I might say.

I know I’m not always concise or accurate. I also sometimes stir a bit (aka fomenting happy mischief).

But from my fairly extensive experience on a wide range of blogs is the two things that annoy people more than anything are arguing with facts, and not reacting to provocation.

When Russell banned me it followed a familiar pattern, I challenged claims and when counter challenged I provided examples to back up my argument. Presumably having no counter to facts they diverted to personal attack. I held my ground so the troops started to suggest I be turfed out. When I kept arguing calmly I was banned.

But that’s not the important point. It’s not just me who is blocked. There’s been many here saying they have been blocked from Whale Oil (including me). There’s been many who say they have been blocked from The Standard. There’s many who have said they’ve been blocked from The Daily Blog.

I think it’s pretty said that blogs purporting to support political debate – and that includes most of the major blogs – don’t just not tolerate different opinions they suppress views they don’t like.

The ultimate example was Red Alert where even Labour Party members were banned. And Clare Curran took action within Labour against an ex Labour candidate for his comments at The Standard.

Kiwiblog cops a lot of criticism for comments, but at least it’s an open forum.

The others don’t seem to have enough confidence in their own arguments to allow un-manipulated debate.

I think that’s a sad way to participate in what should be robust democratic forums.
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December 17, 2014 12:43pm
Shawn Herles

Well said Pete.
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December 17, 2014 12:45pm
stigie

“Gee, GD was operating well today”.

Yea Reddy, until you came along with your 9.48 comment. Thats enough to start a war. Just sayin!~

Go on Reddy, go ahead and abuse the shit out of me. We will wait !!
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December 17, 2014 12:47pm
Keeping Stock

Actually “tendentious windbag” could apply to any number of DPF’s clientele, myself included. “Tendentious” would have been a far more appropriate Word of the Year, given that “Dirty Politics” has become the ultimate in wind-baggery.
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December 17, 2014 12:48pm
Shawn Herles

From Fons Vitae – Huston Smith – Saints & States of Consciousness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sAHMQcVt9s
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December 17, 2014 12:53pm

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