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March 24, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 24 March 2014

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General Debate

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MT_Tinman

From another thread – for obvious reasons.

mikenmild (7,963 comments) says:
March 24th, 2014 at 1:30 pm
Isn’t New Zealand already rated the freest country in the world?

Free money if you are too lazy to work.
Free food if you’re too busy boozing and getting high to buy some.
Free food for the kids if you’re too lazy to feed them.
Free education if you’re too stupid to improve yourself or your family.
Free accommodation once you’ve committed one too many crimes (usually in 3 (not free) figures).

Yes MM, I guess it is – unless you’re trying to run a business or be responsible for yourself.
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March 24, 2014 2:50pm
Manolo

Deeply incompetent, but an exceptional jet-setter: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/03/23/Exclusive-Study-Obama-Most-Well-Traveled-Expensive-President-In-History-Through-Five-Years
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March 24, 2014 2:52pm
Manolo

A good read about Sir Bob: http://www.getfrank.co.nz/editorial/features/the-actual-habits-sir-bobjones
Hat Tip: Lindsay Mitchell

The Dalai Lama swans around the world in 1st class cabins and $3000 per night hotel suites and is feted universally as a great leader. So far all he’s ever led is mindless wet westerners up the garden path who have lost all leave of their senses. What is his objective? To restore Tibet for a feudal theocracy with himself at the top as a “living God”. For this he’s acclaimed!

Mandela is similarly praised. Let’s be analytic. Jailed for life as a young man for plotting murder he eventually was released in his dotage and handed the Presidency on a plate. He served a single innocuous term. None of this amounts to accomplishment or leadership. It is simply romantic symbolism.

So too with troubled Maoridom. “Where are the Maori leaders?” is the cry. Well, we found out. Lying in hotel rooms masturbating over porn films at the taxpayers expense.

Maoris don’t need leaders if they’re to rise above the morass. Their answer lies with each of them as individuals.
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March 24, 2014 2:57pm
wreck1080

http://writehanded.wordpress.com/2014/03/13/fuck-winz-yes-i-said-it/

I get the impression that winz is dysfunctional to people with genuine need.

How on earth did anyone on this planet think it was a good idea to order all employees to stand and applaud whenever the ‘i got a job’ bell is rung? It is exactly something that might happen in an episode of “The office”.
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March 24, 2014 3:00pm
griffith

MT_Tinman (2,758 comments) says:

.griffith (271 comments) says:
March 24th, 2014 at 9:20 am

Ok ______ you will not examine my evidence

just spurt generality based on nothing except your personal world view.

You are now insisting that sans economic power the usa is somewhere near the top of western civilizations measurable factors that create a good society to live in.

Is the USA free?

http://www.heritage.org/index/

https://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php

http://www.freedomhouse.org/report-types/freedom-world#.Uy9BcM6uqSo

Note the 3 links to “free” measures
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March 24, 2014 3:10pm
MT_Tinman

Griff, whatever you’re on, give it up – it doesn’t work.
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March 24, 2014 3:22pm
griffith

Then personal attack.

Man that’s good debate .

Do you think I am right in saying The usa is not the most free country?
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March 24, 2014 3:31pm
Manolo

The comrades promise to pick ~~winners~~ losers:
http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8818960/labours-boasting-irks-act

Labour and the Greens are promising to help individual industries and then using their praise as evidence of how popular the policies are, the ACT party says.

The Greens recently promised cheap loans for solar panels and Labour has announced a policy favouring timber for buildings.
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March 24, 2014 3:33pm
stephieboy

manolo, this is not the same Matthew Boyle?,

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/41777_Breitbarts_Matthew_Boyle_Stalks_the_Presidents_Daughters_Incites_Racial_Hatred

Unsurprisingly ( after all its coming from you ) the guys a hate monger and utterly weird.
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March 24, 2014 3:36pm
MT_Tinman

Griff, I don’t care, simply because I have no need to care, I live in New Zealand not the USA.

Therefore i have not read your links and have no desire to debate it/them.

Manolo, thanks for the Bob Jones link. I have just started re-reading his Travelling, An Entertainment.

I can and do recommend it.
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March 24, 2014 3:41pm
stephieboy

Braibatt’s Mathew Boyle was behind the scurrilous attempt to frame and smear Senator Bob Memedez accsuing him of having underage sex with Dominican Prostitutes,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/01/30/menendez-prostitution-allegations-manufactured-by-right-wing-blog/

They were found to be fabricated and without foundation demonstrating how far the far right will stoop and scrape the bottom of the barrel.
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March 24, 2014 3:57pm
Ryan Sproull

Same age as you .

The point when the collective. the state. decided we can remove your liberty or fruits of your effort.

sixteen usually?

So if you didn’t sign the social contract at age 16, what would have happened to you?
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March 24, 2014 4:13pm
ShawnLH

stephie,

“utter fatuous nonsense”

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz……………

Please wake me when your argument begins.

“.Re above and again like Ryan Sproull how are regulations like the above aforementioned “state oerced collectivism.”??”

Do you have a choice? No. Are they imposed by decree that I must obey or the State will initiate force against me? Yes.

To be forced is to be coerced. Obviously.

“Or the requirement that e.g imported vehicles must meet fundamental structural safety requirements”

You can pick any regulation you like, but that changes your argument from “it’s not force” to “it’s force but it’s good for you”. But that is just making the ends justify the means. Justice, to be just, must be as much about means as ends.

“You could go on and in this vein each one highlighting how fake and fraudulent the Liberatrran ideal is.”

No, clearly you couldn’t. All you did was create a strawman, pretended that it was libertarianism, attacked it with superficial one liners, and then claimed, without any evidence, that coercive regulations are good.

That’s not an argument. It’s masturbating in public.
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March 24, 2014 4:19pm
griffith

Jail
Or do you think that there is no social contract?

the two parts tp yhe contract are not equal on the individual level we can however tear the contract up revolution. You don’t give any alterative to the present system that will satisfy all needs not just a few.
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March 24, 2014 4:19pm
Ryan Sproull

Jail
Or do you think that there is no social contract?

I think that any contract signed at gunpoint is no contract at all.
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March 24, 2014 4:27pm
ShawnLH

The Rule of Law without the State.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSrf9j2pvmU
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March 24, 2014 4:29pm
griffith

Then opt out.

its your right 😆

Very few manage to fully opt out of the contract. I have tried it is not a viable lifestyle,.

It is alledged to be to your advantage to join in with society (so they tell me).
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March 24, 2014 4:33pm
Ryan Sproull

Then opt out.

its your right 😆

Very few manage to fully opt out of the contract. I have tried it is not a viable lifestyle,.

It is alledged to be to your advantage to join in with society (so they tell me).

Yes, I expect that it is roughly as easy to opt out of your social contract as it is to opt out of the contract a dictator has with his subjects.
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March 24, 2014 4:39pm
tom hunter

That’s not an argument. It’s masturbating in public.

That’s actually preferable to watching Stephie’s normal activity on KB – fellating Obama.
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March 24, 2014 4:39pm
griffith

You still other no constructive option. jeering down the social edifice is great except you need a replacement or its back to the law of the jungle.

The pinnacle of the punk movement was brixton

Utterly pointless squatters eating their own social position.
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March 24, 2014 4:47pm
Ryan Sproull

You still other no constructive option. jeering down the social edifice is great except you need a replacement or its back to the law of the jungle.

So start helping to come up with a replacement.

If I dictate a new system to be imposed on everyone without their participation and buy-in, I’m just as bad as your “join us or we’ll take you and lock you up” dictatorial social contract is.
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March 24, 2014 4:51pm
stephieboy

This reviewer from Amazon. com has got it right on David Friedman’s the Machinery of freedom Guide to Radical Capitalism

A silly, rightist utopia, January 27, 2000
By A Customer
This review is from: The Machinery of Freedom: Guide to a Radical Capitalism (Paperback)
A fully capitalistic society, in which money is the universal medium of interpersonal contact and all the public functions are replaced for market competition: that’s the silly utopia this book tell us. The arguments are simplistic, in both economic and philosophical senses. The problems are discarded with the “market-always-attains-the-best-equilibrium” mantra. The last part seems a tasteless parody of Stuart Mill’s On Liberty.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Machinery-Freedom-Radical-Capitalism/product-reviews/0812690699/ref=cm_cr_pr_btm_link_next_3?ie=UTF8&pageNumber=3&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
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March 24, 2014 4:51pm
ShawnLH

“You still other no constructive option. jeering down the social edifice is great except you need a replacement or its back to the law of the jungle.”

I think you have seen too many mad max films. Your assuming that anarchy means no rule of law, or no authority of any kind. That’s not the case.
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March 24, 2014 4:52pm
Ryan Sproull

Stephie, I’d love to hear your own thoughts in your own words at some point.
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March 24, 2014 4:53pm
ShawnLH

He’s busy masturbating again. Very unseemly. 🙂
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March 24, 2014 4:55pm
griffith

😆

Not my focus at present…… Shhhhisssshhhh dont mention —-

NZ is best practise is many directions.

Strangely enough Blogs allow the possibility of ideas being expanded simply by the logic of argument.

It is as symptomatic of the connected paradigm shift.

As pamphleteers were to the mass-produced printed word.
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March 24, 2014 5:02pm
hj

Massey University humanities and social sciences research director Professor Paul Spoonley told the Herald Auckland’s multi-culturalism today was way beyond what experts believed likely a few years ago.

Asian communities, in particular, in New Zealand have almost doubled since 2001, when 6.6 per cent of the Kiwi population was Asian. The proportion in Auckland was 14.6 per cent.

………….
So when Winston talked about “tsunami” of migrants he wasn’t so wrong (although any negativity about immigration is wrong by default).
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March 24, 2014 5:06pm
nasska

Libertarianism taken to it’s extreme must result in a “Mad Max” type anarchy. This is why the NZ movement has folded….despite the best efforts of its proponents a small child could see that it wouldn’t work.

A “small” state confined to roles of justice & defence without coercive powers would only work should it be populated by perfect people. As few seem to fit this mould what is going to stop the cheats & shysters who prey on the community?

So far this is the part that no one seems to want to explain. What is going to keep the turkeys in line & working for the common good?

My guess is religion….please fill us in on the details.
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March 24, 2014 5:09pm
Ryan Sproull

Not my focus at present…… Shhhhisssshhhh dont mention —-

NZ is best practise is many directions.

Strangely enough Blogs allow the possibility of ideas being expanded simply by the logic of argument.

It is as symptomatic of the connected paradigm shift.

As pamphleteers were to the mass-produced printed word.

Are you writing poetry now?
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March 24, 2014 5:09pm
hj

Professor Spoonley is opposed to the idea that NZr is an ethnicity (on the cencus). Michael King (historian) asked how long it took Maori to forget where they were (politely asked to leave?) from so why not us who came on sailing ships?
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March 24, 2014 5:11pm
Ryan Sproull

Libertarianism taken to it’s extreme must result in a “Mad Max” type anarchy. This is why the NZ movement has folded….despite the best efforts of its proponents a small child could see that it wouldn’t work.

The Libertarianz Party were minarchists, not libertarians.

A “small” state confined to roles of justice & defence without coercive powers would only work should it be populated by perfect people. As few seem to fit this mould what is going to stop the cheats & shysters who prey on the community?

Again, that is minarchism. There’s no such thing as a “small state”. Every state’s claim to coercive authority over all of the people within a certain geographical area is total, and governments never stay small.
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March 24, 2014 5:12pm
srylands

I see The Standard is down.

http://thestandard.org.nz/

It is very calming.
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March 24, 2014 5:18pm
nasska

….” Every state’s claim to coercive authority over all of the people within a certain geographical area is total, and governments never stay small.”….

I actually agree with you on this Ryan. The cry for governments to “do something” will always be met by those in power who are happy to extend their reach & influence.

Shawn however, is always banging on about anarchism. What he usually fails to mention is that it involves dismantling democracy & relying on a beneficial monarchy, much the way Britain was organised before the Industrial Revolution. He is of course quite mad but I’d like him to fill in some of the details of his dream & everyone else’s nightmare.
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March 24, 2014 5:22pm
ShawnLH

“This is why the NZ movement has folded”

The movement hasn’t folded, one party has. I never voted for them. The Libz from the start was a Randian club and a boutique party at best. I never had any sense they were serious about getting into parliament. I suspect many other libertarians felt the same way and ignored them.

Not to mention, they were anti-monarchist. Not something I have ever voted for.
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March 24, 2014 5:23pm
Ryan Sproull

Shawn however, is always banging on about anarchism. What he usually fails to mention is that it involves dismantling democracy & relying on a beneficial monarchy, much the way Britain was organised before the Industrial Revolution.

How do you figure that?
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March 24, 2014 5:26pm
nasska

He wrote quite a detailed comment on it a year or so back under his previous pseudonym. I kept a copy but I think it disappeared when I fried the HD on my previous computer.

I’ll see if I can locate the original.
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March 24, 2014 5:30pm
ShawnLH

Mine actually involves localizing democracy in preference to big state/big money “democracy” and relying on a limited constitutional monarchy that upholds the non-aggression principle.
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March 24, 2014 5:36pm
ShawnLH

I’ve commented on anarcho-monarchism quite a bit recently. I can’t see how that’s “failing to mention”.
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March 24, 2014 5:38pm
Ryan Sproull

Yowza. That’s a new one to me. I’ll have to learn about it.
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March 24, 2014 5:42pm
Reid

Limited terms of reference in a really really critical enquiry. Where have we heard that before?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587120/BBC-probe-Savile-wont-truth-says-child-abuse-expert-gave-evidence-inquiry.html

And for those who think Saville was a lone predator, educate yourself. He was a procurer for the highest levels of UK politics and aristocracy. Like I said, educate yourself.
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March 24, 2014 6:04pm
Bob R

***So when Winston talked about “tsunami” of migrants he wasn’t so wrong (although any negativity about immigration is wrong by default).***

@ hj,

Very true, unless you are talking about Israel or a non-white country, in which case it is simply respecting the right of the majority to protect their culture.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/may/24/tibet.china
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March 24, 2014 6:07pm
tom hunter

Today’s Calvin and Hobbes seems very appropriate for the main themes of today’s GD – “So pitching this junk would make me some kind of terrorist, huh?”
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March 24, 2014 6:17pm
griffith

We aint having.

atheist / godwhack
science /wingnut
authoritarian / pwogressive

so its a start tom.
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March 24, 2014 6:22pm
hj

http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-diverse-auckland-are-we-there-yet/?p=308507#post308507
@Bob R Tibet
Waikato University will love that
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March 24, 2014 6:25pm
nasska

Ryan S

The copy of the comment I’m trying to access has gone for good but here’s a shorter version on the same theme.

Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:
May 2nd, 2012 at 4:24 pm

….”Traditionalist conservatism, also known as “traditional conservatism,” “traditionalism,” “Burkean conservatism”, “classical conservatism” and (in the United Kingdom and Canada), “Toryism”, describes a political philosophy emphasizing the need for the principles of natural law and transcendent moral order, tradition, hierarchy, the organic unity of the nation, agrarianism, classicism and high culture, patriotism, localism and regionalism.

High Toryism is a term used in Britain, Canada and elsewhere to refer to a traditionalist conservatism which is in line with the Toryism originating in the 17th century. It tends to be at odds with the modern emphasis of the Conservative Party in these countries. High Toryism has been described as neo-feudalist in its preference for monarchy and for a ruling class over democratisation and universal suffrage.”…..

Ref: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/05/general_debate_02_may_2012.html
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March 24, 2014 7:14pm
Steve (North Shore)

Whoes it gonna be?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y45cp4qb2ctq42l/baconandeggs.jpg
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March 24, 2014 7:19pm
griffith

Lee 001

😆
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March 24, 2014 7:20pm
UglyTruth

Makes sense when you consider what the neocons were involved with.
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March 24, 2014 7:22pm
stephieboy

Ryan Sproull (6,410 comments) says:
March 24th, 2014 at 4:53 pm
Stephie, I’d love to hear your own thoughts in your own words at some point.

Ryan Sproull, Ok in a nutshell as mentioned the Libertarian vision is an ideal that assumes we all share common goals , ideals and interests. But that is utopian . My self interest is not necessarily the same as yours and it is fatuous to suggest otherwise and that the mechanism of a purely free market can resolve this when these are in conflict.

Your libertarianism recognizes few legitimate constraints on the power to act, regardless of the impact on the lives of others .Libertarianism is a concept of freedom/ Liberty lthat is a inglorious attempt to rationalize and justify greed
No activity is so completely private as never to obstruct the lives of others in any way. Some peoples freedom must at times to be curtailed , to secure the freedom of others . Put it in another way , your freedom to use your fist ends where my nose begins. This a freedom worthy to defend. Our actions are not atomized and do not happen in a vacuum or in isolation from others. This explains the need for basic regulations and legal restraints where actions by corporates or individuals interfere with other peoples freedoms and rights.Your freedom ends when it intrudes and takes away my property right to light , obstructs my view or my right to peace and quiet. Libertarians regard these rights as tyranny and oppressive which, of course, is ludicrous.They refuse to see and recognize that the freedom for the pike to swallow and eat at will is death to the minnows . In other words other peoples unrestrained freedom to act can and does intrude on others . Thus a Coal Power station needs some form of regulation to prevent it from polluting and adversely affecting the health of those living by it. Also another big mistake Libertarians make is that its only the state that intrudes on our liberties . Corporates and banks can and do so. as well . individuals do also too . The bald and incorrect assumption is that there is a level playing field where my self interest and bargaining strength is the same as yours . That doesn’t exist in the real world. Its a fantasy . Commonsense actually.!
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March 24, 2014 7:29pm
griffith

When you have repeated reference to a better system yet neither pundits have posted detail on this system or its precedent is says mt waffles.
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March 24, 2014 7:35pm
wiseowl

So apart from the religion,dotcom,homosexuality how about poor ratepayers.

The Hastings District Council is reported as wanting to put $5m of ratepayers money into a hotel for the CBD.
The Mayor a Mr Yule who is also head of Local Government NZ , want to get the feel of the community about this investment.

When is someone in Government going to change the LGA so that councils really have to stick to their knitting and stop trying to become the economy.
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March 24, 2014 7:38pm
nasska

The entire system of traditionalist conservatism is an autocrat’s wet dream Griff.
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March 24, 2014 7:40pm
cha

Miracle boy.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/09/general_debate_26_september_2011.html#comment-881692
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March 24, 2014 7:51pm
nasska

When I first visited central Auckland I thought the streets were paved with gold.

Turns out it was just sunlight reflecting off the pools of piss.
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March 24, 2014 8:00pm
Johnboy

When I first came to Wainui nasska I thought the streets were paved with chocolate.

It didn’t take me long to realise that Wainuiomartians never pick up their Pitbulls shit! 🙂
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March 24, 2014 8:06pm
gravedodger

@wiseowl 7 38.
Great Idea Lawrence just put up a prospectus, call for investment then on that outcome build your fucking memorial or fuck off back to your dirt farm and leave the funds of the long suffering Hastings District ratepayers for core business.
Building a hotel aint one of them.
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March 24, 2014 8:14pm
Steve (North Shore)

Nasska, come to the Shore.
CBD is full of people that want your money, and we just don’t give a shit about those on the other side
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March 24, 2014 8:33pm
Ben Dover

before we see another flag design

and it is overdue (been all of 2 days)

Can we see the democratic mandate from the people and what it represents?
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March 24, 2014 9:14pm
publicwatchdog

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11224933

‘Key cracks joke after China trip’ – but was he joking?

“You can now convert New Zealand dollars into renminbi, if you are of such a mind to do so. So, life after politics, I might go back to the foreign exchange markets and smack around the renminbi. Maybe not.”

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

How do we know that NZ Prime Minister John Key doesn’t still dabble in foreign exchange markets?

In my considered opinion, the opportunities for ‘insider trading’ must be potentially enormous if you’re the Prime Minister …..?

Remember this?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10894454

“Bright started with a lecture about how Key does deals like the Sky City convention centre – “your deals over dinner, deals over the phone – that might be customary practice in how you do things as a foreign exchange dealer or the head of derivatives for Merrill Lynch but that is no way to run a country”.

On the spy bill, she wanted him to open up all his trust accounts, bank accounts, Swiss bank accounts, tax havens. “Nothing to hide, nothing to fear, come on Prime Minister; you show me yours and I’ll show you mine.”

Key looked like he really wanted to engage: “Okay Penny, thanks very much. Your time has expired.”

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Nothing to hide – nothing to fear?

Penny Bright

‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’

http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz
http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com
http://www.occupyauckland vsaucklandcouncil appeal.org.nz
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March 24, 2014 9:19pm
Ben Dover

HA HA HA

the jokes on you NZ
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March 24, 2014 9:50pm
OneTrack

Ben – “Can we see the democratic mandate from the people and what it represents?”

Key has proposed a referendum during the next electoral term. If he wins the upcoming election, he will have his democratic mandate to proceed with that referendum.
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March 24, 2014 10:01pm
Don the Kiwi

Are you there Griffith?
Just thought you might find this interesting.

In testimony to the U.S. Senate in February, 2014, Dr. Patrick Moore, ecologist and cofounder of Greenpeace, made two significant points on climate change:

Firstly: “When modern life evolved over 500 million years ago, CO2 was more than 10 times higher than today, yet life flourished.”

Secondly: “Humans are a tropical species. We evolved at the equator in a climate where freezing weather did not exist. The only reasons we can survive these cold climates are fire, clothing, and housing.”

Ice ages extinguish most life. Even a slight reduction in surface temperature would turn the northern grain fields of Canada, China, Russia, and Europe into frigid deserts. And millions of humans and animals would starve.

We are fortunate to live in a natural warm interlude after the recurring ice ages of the Pleistocene Era. The modern warming has evaporated moisture and discharged carbon dioxide from the oceans. This increase in atmospheric plant nutrients has increased crop yields and caused widespread greening of the planet that can be detected by satellite. These benefits for the biosphere are ignored by climate alarmists.

Cold eras are remembered for bitter storms, starvation, migrations and wars. The next natural climate change is likely to see the ice returning.

Everyone except penguins and polar bears should “Welcome the Warmth” – Cold is the Killer.
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March 24, 2014 10:03pm
Ben Dover

Key has proposed a referendum during the next electoral term. If he wins the upcoming election, he will have his democratic mandate to proceed with that referendum.

KEY HAS NO MANDATE TO CHANGE THE FLAG

WHAT IS IT – EXPLAIN IT

EXPLAIN THE REASONS

YOU SEEM TO KNOW ?

WHAT IS YOUR NEW COUNTRY GOING TO STAND FOR?

IS HE GOING TO DECLARE A REPUBLIC?

DO YOU HAVE A CONSTITUTION?

WITH OUT THE REASONS FIRST COMING FROM THE NZ PEOPLE

AND NOT HIM HE

HAS NO MANDATE _ AND NEITHER DO YOU

HE IS CREATING ONE

DOCTORING ONE

MANICURING ONE

HE HAS NO MANDATE AND NEITHER DO YOU

IT IS A BIG LIE TO PRETEND TO CREATE A TRUTH

DONE BY HIM AND A FEW PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT HIM

AND YOU ARE TOO THICK TO FIGURE IT OUT

YOU GET THE LEADERS AND THE CRAP SYMBOLS YOU DESERVE

CHANGE YOUR COUNTRY NAME TO

JOHNSTOWN

YOU HAVE A WHACKY CULT NOT A DEMOCRACY

[DPF: Stop shouting – 20 demerits]
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March 24, 2014 10:23pm
Ben Dover

The Kiwi Symbol comes from Boot Polish developed in Melbourne

take the kiwi off and keep the boot polish

You are all just BOOT LICKERS to foreign interests

Boot lickers and Rubber stampers
<

With out at least some constitutional reform
this campaign is B U L L S H 8 t

What the country is meant to stand for comes first

THE SYMBOLS that represent that come AFTER
that is determined and agreed by ALL NZers
from all parties
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March 24, 2014 10:29pm
griffith

Don
http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/02/27/who-is-patrick-moore-a-look-at-the-former-green/198266

patrick Moore is not a founding member any thing but his own company
he is a paid oil company lobbyist.

It like trying to teach little kids critical thinking on the web except the wingnuts are adults…Maybe
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March 24, 2014 10:37pm
wreck1080

this whole thing about some AB’s abusing sleeping pills.

The whole thing seems a bit blown up to me. It is not exactly the activity you’d expect sports people to enjoy, given that sleeping pills probably do not exactly enhance performance!!!!!

It is a puzzling story and I have no real opinion other than why is it even in the news!!!
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March 24, 2014 11:23pm
Ben Dover

WHO OWNS THE FORESHORE?
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March 24, 2014 11:30pm
igm

When the hell is something going to be done about this obese German criminal? He is flouting our laws on twitter, interfering in our political system, even making public his intention of deposing our current elected government. This is no effen joke, and those that support him are as treasonous as he. This slug must be put out to pasture so he can face his criminal charges, hopefully ending up in a US pen as gang member’s bitch.
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March 25, 2014 4:13am
Manolo

Progressive is the key word here: http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/03/24/vatican-chief-justice-obamas-policies-have-become-progressively-more-hostile-toward-christian-civilization/
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March 25, 2014 6:17am
igm

When is “Tojo” Cunliffe coming clean on his wish to disestablish the RSA movement . . . seems MSM are in agreement with this disgusting policy as they are giving it a wide berth. Don’t forget his taxing Lotto, taxing the hell out of racing, already on slender margins, increasing ACC levies on registration, especially motorcycles, so as to fund their policies of waste; that is for starters..
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March 25, 2014 6:39am
ShawnLH

Stephieboy

“Ok in a nutshell as mentioned the Libertarian vision is an ideal that assumes we all share common goals , ideals and interests. But that is utopian .”

This suggests you know nothing at all about Libertarianism. Because real libertarianism assumes the opposite, that we all have radicaly different and subjective goals and ideals. You keep starting off your arguments with blatant falsehoods. This suggests you don’t know the subject your debating on, at all.

“My self interest is not necessarily the same as yours and it is fatuous to suggest otherwise and that the mechanism of a purely free market can resolve this when these are in conflict.”

No, it is fatuous to suggests that the State can. You own point defeats you. The fact, which is accepted by libertarians, that everyone’s self interest is different, means it is fatuous to suggest that a large bureaucratic State can possibly deal with with millions of radically different individuals.

“Your libertarianism recognizes few legitimate constraints on the power to act”

It recognizes the only restraints that are just. That it is wrong to initiate force and fraud against others and thus laws against force and fraud are just. Laws which, on the other hand, allow force and fraud, are not just.

“Libertarianism is a concept of freedom/ Liberty lthat is a inglorious attempt to rationalize and justify greed”

No, it is an attempt to justify peace and freedom. Social democracy is just an attempt to justify thuggery, brute force, oppression, theft and bullying your neighbor because you stephie think your so much wiser and better than him that you can use the state to steal from him and force him to behave how you want. That is both greed and tyranny, and greed and tyranny is what you advocate.
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March 25, 2014 9:01am
ShawnLH

Naaska,

The post you talking about, and have one part of, was an explanation of traditionalist conservatism. It did not deal with anarcho-monarchism at the time.
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March 25, 2014 9:04am
griffith

Lee 001 😆

and you would of course be one of your libertarian Monarchistic theocracy’s benevolent hereditary dictators.

Sorry Muppet your words are mighty fine. Your concepts and your clarity of thought are not.

You are not a libertarian or an anarchist you are simply…. MAD.
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March 25, 2014 9:14am
ShawnLH

“and you would of course be one of your libertarian Monarchistic theocracy’s benevolent hereditary dictators.”

Is the Queen a dictator? No. An exclusively constitutional limited monarchy does not dictate.

You need to try thinking for yourself, and just thinking in general.

Try this from the Mises Institute:

A Libertarian Case for Monarchy; https://mises.org/daily/5415/A-Libertarian-Case-for-Monarchy
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March 25, 2014 9:36am
griffith

freedom does not and will not come from having a un elected ruler. NZ is a republic for all intents not a monarchy.
realty says your system is just a way for smaller groups to weld power not a change in society that would give any one benefit except those with the power.. Reliant on the integrity of those who wear the crown with no process to ensure integrity or removal of rulers who don’t except revolution..

A step back to the dark ages of religion and hereditary leadership not a step into the light of the enlightenment.
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March 25, 2014 9:51am
ShawnLH

“freedom does not and will not come from having a un elected ruler”

A constitutional monarchy does not rule. It merely acts as a symbolic/legal guardian of the constitution.

Freedom does not and cannot come from any system of majoritarian social democracy,

“not a step into the light of the enlightenment.”

There is no light there, only hubris and a long train of horrific tyranny and genocide. The French Terror, the mass starvation and murder of Communism, the threat of nuclear annihilation and the degradation of the environment all flow from the so-called “enlightenment”.
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March 25, 2014 9:56am
stephieboy

Shawn L H,
“No, it is an attempt to justify peace and freedom. Social democracy is just an attempt to justify thuggery, brute force, oppression, theft and bullying your neighbor because you stephie think your so much wiser and better than him that you can use the state to steal from him and force him to behave how you want. That is both greed and tyranny, and greed and tyranny is what you advocate.”

It’s worthless debating with an obvious dogmatic ideologue like you.No different to a Marxist or Creationist .In a social democracy such as ours can you identify and document specific ways in which the actions of the state is personally tyrannizing , oppressing or”stealing” from you .?
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March 25, 2014 10:07am
ShawnLH

“It’s worthless debating with an obvious dogmatic ideologue like you.”

Lost the debate then? 🙂

“In a social democracy such as ours can you identify and document specific ways in which the actions of the state is personally tyrannizing , oppressing or”stealing” from you .”

Easily. My property is stolen through compulsory taxation. My right to freedom of association is violated through various “human rights” laws. My right to trade my labour and property is violated through trade restrictions. My ability to save and create wealth is violated through government fiat currency. My freedom is oppressed through an ever growing list of laws and regulations that create constant moral hazard. My right to work on, add value to and dispose of my land is oppressed through a myriad of local body regulations. That’s just a short list. There are many other examples.
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March 25, 2014 10:16am
Ben Dover

NZ is a republic for all intents not a monarchy.

B U L L S H I T

You don’t know the meaning of the word your little twerp
who is your president

Where is your constitution

You are all so busy trying to create a symbol that represents your never ending BULL SH*T

You have confused yourselves
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March 26, 2014 12:13am
Ben Dover

Where is JOHN KEYS

new constitution or bill of rights?

or is this just another BULLSH8t

let’s all feel good exercise so we can end up with something as Dumb
as the

The FLAG OF MAORI Fascism

YOU HAVE ALL ACCEPTED that pile of Crap
with out a whimper

Hung from the Harbour Bridge

Doesn’t one Family up North own the copyright to that ABSOLUTE JOKE

Where was the REFERENDUM on THAT NZ

DID YOU GET TO VOTE ON THAT

DEMOCRACY – SURE IT IS

THEY HAVE ALREADY CHANGED YOUR NATIONAL SYMBOLS

with out CONSULTATION

It is A BIG BAD ON GOING JOKE

CHRIST and you think you are going to
GET IT RIGHT THIS TIME

How about an Image of John Key with Golf Clubs

That will be GOOD FOR INVESTMENT

Because lets’ face it that is what the
NEW FLAG EXERCISE is about

Preparing NZ FOR SALE

Down the DUNNY
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March 26, 2014 12:23am
griffith

I seee aaa fuuutuuree timmme

BEN DOVER

When King Charles the Alt med wingnut will rule our land.

WHAT SAYS you.

bendy over and let king Charles tug your forelock?

Where OH WISE one of the frequent capitals is your precious inbreed aristocracy going then?
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March 26, 2014 12:34am

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