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May 15, 2010 8:12am by David Farrar

General Debate 15 May 2010

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General Debate

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JiveKitty

“enshrine forever right of access even to the colonisers descendants”

They themselves are descendents of colonisers also.

I also find it ironic you argue for some form of atonement for occurrences far in the past as what, some kind of moral imperative that should be obeyed? If there is some moral imperative it should apply equally to descendants of all groups regardless as to how long ago it occurred and regardless of the scope and scale. If you feel that is ridiculous then you should be consistent.
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May 15, 2010 8:56pm
JiveKitty

Religions of peace: http://dalatheist.tumblr.com/post/599967033/is-a-religion-of-peace-right
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May 15, 2010 9:03pm
Jack5

Another new topic for a mo…

Great reading for anyone who has time. This piece on papers taken from the Soviet archives and held by refugees to the West is superb reading. It comes through Arts and Letters Daily, Denis Dutton’s great internet site. Highly, highly recommended to all.

Did Gorbachev laugh about the shooting down of the Korean airliner? It’s here.

http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_2_soviet-archives.html
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May 15, 2010 9:09pm
Shunda barunda

Speaking of kitty’s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG8ieVpDgfg&playnext_from=TL&videos=q_jynAQNdJA

Bloody hell!!!!!
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May 15, 2010 9:17pm
Luc Hansen

Steve, again, you are simply self serving with your definition. The term indigenous also includes first occupiers. We do not rank as indigenous in any internationally understood sense of the word. And we all have something like like 98% DNA in common with apes. But wallow in your delusions, by all means.

JiveKitty – unless you ascribe human status to the various species that inhabited NZ before humans arrived (yes, early Maori were humans also) Maori did not colonise the land, they discovered it. They have rights, recognised at international level, and international bodies are increasingly dominated by ex-colonies and indigenous and are increasingly asserting their rights.

Paul, I do know the area, I have strong connections there, I hunted there before I gave it up, and understand quite well the dynamics that have led to what you call extremist. It’s what generations of oppression and dispossession does to people. You should try it sometime.

And I call extremist the top cops that sent in a bunch of wound-up young cops looking for someone to shoot in that infamous raid that will remain forever a blight on our society. Do you not understand that your stance is extremist? Your conflation of Tuhoe with Islamic resistance to western occupiers is indicative of your world view – sophisticated, oppressive, unjust, selfish.
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May 15, 2010 9:26pm
Jack5

Lucy Hansen:

Re your 7pm post and your following posts:

First time I’ve read anyone on Kiwiblog quoting themselves and praising their own post.

But congratulations for bringing Tuhoe, Israel, and Hitler into the thread when it was discussing Muslims. You forgot about Torquemada, the Ku Klux Klan, Al Qaeda, Pol Pot, and the genocide of the Armenians. Under Godwins Law, when you bring up Hitler or Nazi-ism that’s supposed to be your last post on the matter.

Interestingly, Lucy, in one of your posts above in the thread you said:

…the tenth (ironic number, in this binary age)

Why is it ironic? Tenth in binary is just 1010, that is one-zero-one-zero, no “ten” about it.
And is it really a binary age? A lot of the code underlying our software is in hexadecimal. In “hex”, ten is just “A”.

What were you getting at Lucy?
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May 15, 2010 9:30pm
Hurf Durf

I’ve just had a great idea. We take every progressive/socialists/butthurt Labourite and the rest and stick them all on an island in the middle of the Indian Ocean.

And then we napalm the shit out of it.
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May 15, 2010 9:34pm
Leonidas

Maori did not colonise the land, they discovered it.

So the Mori-Ori are simply a figment of the imagination?
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May 15, 2010 9:36pm
Jack5

Lucy H:

Re your 9.26 – I wouldn’t waste too much time on the “indigenous” argument.

Now that the British National Party are on the “Indigenous” wagon, claiming rights as the indigenous people of the British Isles, Sharples and Co. at UN conferences may soon be rubbing shoulders with these neo-fascists.

The whole “indigenous” movement will then fade away.

As for our suggestion in an earlier post that the Israelis are European colonisers, do you include the darkish skinned Jews from North Africa and the black-skinned Israelis from Ethiopia in your generalisation? I think you will find that there are strong DNA Middle-Eastern links in the Israelis from Europe. Ironically, they and the Palestinian Arabs are likely to be very closely related in DNA. Now that’s irony!
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May 15, 2010 9:46pm
Jack5

If Ryan Sproull is having a last read before closing the door on Kiwiblog would he please give us his blog’s address?

And on it, Ryan, don’t forget to post the new surname you and your partner choose.

Happy blogging, Ryan!
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May 15, 2010 9:52pm
Pauleastbay

LUc

There were no wound up young cops, no one was shot, its not infamous

Much better if you just keep praising your own posts quoting your posts and stroking yourself generally. I fucked up twice tonight firstly watching the news and secondly reading any of your comments. Even the idiot with the full stop compulsion makes more sense than you most of the time

I am really trying not to finish this by suggesting you are a sad anti-semetic onanist, but WTF
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May 15, 2010 10:00pm
RKBee

Just got the email..

Ryan has Sproulled the ell out of aar… @ 4:03 pm
Hell!.. want miss him taking his followers with him down the left side of highway one..
Christians have a habit of been born again..
Lets hope and pray Ryan is born again on the right side of highway one or at least the middle and returns back to save another day..

Your intellect and knowledge will be missed.. Ryan.

Haluha.. Ryan.. Haluha.
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May 15, 2010 10:01pm
JiveKitty

“JiveKitty – unless you ascribe human status to the various species that inhabited NZ before humans arrived (yes, early Maori were humans also) Maori did not colonise the land, they discovered it. They have rights, recognised at international level, and international bodies are increasingly dominated by ex-colonies and indigenous and are increasingly asserting their rights.”

So Maoris are full-blooded now? Like I said, descendents of colonisers too.

Rights are a construct conferred by society. What’s your point? It doesn’t mean the reason/s they have been conferred are particularly close to objective truth inasmuch as it can be known. With highly political and politicised organisations such as the UN – to whom I assume you are referring – there even seems to be a tendency to prefer the subjective narrative over the facts more likely to be close to the objective.

You also failed to address my point re: moral imperative of atonement.

If you prefer imperatives imposed by contractual obligations – in particular the Treaty of Waitangi – you also run into obvious problems there primarily in that if you are going to treat it as a contract you must limit it to the parties it pertained to and there must be clear knowledge of the obligations it gives, which in truth, nobody has. You also don’t have distinct parties separate from each other, but that’s probably not an insurmountable problem.
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May 15, 2010 10:02pm
Luc Hansen

Leonardis, Moriori are a Maori sub-tribe who landed on the Chathams at some stage during the Polynesian migration and developed in isolation for hundreds of years. You should read Michael King’s book on the Moriori and get enlightened.

Jack5 – there you go again, spouting nonsense. The original Zionists were the Ashkenazi jews from Europe who have almost no more genetic relation to the Middle East than I do. They were/are just European colonisers, pure and simple.

Kim Hill makes me wonder what her angle on this is when I hear her consistently parading the Holocaust as justification for the dispossession of the then 500,000 odd Palestinians. There is a serious disconnect of logic in her reasoning.

And sure, non-European Jews have always lived in the land and also arrived after the Zionists, but they are a minority in Israel, and a minority that is largely marginalised in that society – check out their ethnicity-based socio-economic stats sometime.

By the way, for the purposes of Kiwiblog, 1010 is close enough to 10 to make my point of historical continuity. Split Enz were wrong – if you take their words at face value.

Paul – carry on believing what you want to believe, the world is moving past your white supremacist views. I stand by my view that it was lucky no-one was killed by the cops that day. The excuse was flimsy, the execution was extremely violent. I’ve listened to the stories and I remain disgusted by the behaviour of our cops.

And it’s so easy, isn’t it, to throw the anti-Semitic jibe. Do you know that Semite is a language group, not an ethnicity? Do you know that Arabs are Semites?

Neither am I anti-Jew. I am not religious, but everyone has a right to their religion of choice. I am against Zionism, but even that issue is passe in the face of facts on the ground. I am against the casual murder and imprisonment without charges or trial that characterises Israel’s racist polices and actions against Palestinians. The fact that Israel’s actions are not only condoned, but encouraged by the West reflects badly on us as humans.

But then, racist, European colonisers have always had to be dragged into philosophical modernity anyway – always the laggard.

JiveKitty – United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Read the text. Stop living in the colonialist mindset. And you clearly misunderstand the true significance of the treaty, which was a concession by Maori for we Europeans to come and live with them and which we then abused in a clear breach of trust. Your view is not only restrictive in a self-serving sense, but also one not subscribed to by successive governments in recent times.
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May 15, 2010 11:31pm
krazykiwi

dispossession of the then 500,000 odd Palestinians

Yawn. Tenement farmers who had their leases terminated and the land sold from beneath them by their Arab ‘brothers’. But don’t believe this, because it might lessen the hatred and malice that drips from every one of your comments. You clearly enjoy those attributes being part of your personal brand.

Another thing that pisses me off is the notion, advanced by bleeding-heart, liberal idiots, that someone with fractional Maori blood is somehow entitled to apartheid-like treatment here. My father’s family arrived in NZ in 1840, my mother’s family in 1852 and all but two my forebears were born and raised in our country. Yes, our country. Yet I regard myself as no more entitled to special treatment than is someone who was grated their citizenship yesterday

I’m proud of my heritage, and of the opportunities that are available to all NZer. I’m disappointed that some choose not to take up these opportunities, but I won’t be made to feel guilty for that.

Luc Hansen, and other prompters of the guilt industry are the ones responsible for holding Maori back. They say “You can’t move forward, because the white man has oppressed you. Wait there and we’ll help you out”.. yet their brand of help is nothing but a ticket to wallowing self-pity and dependence. Luc Hansen, it is you and your ilk who are oppressing the Maori people.
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May 16, 2010 12:20am
Banana Llama

There is a word for collective punishment based on heritage.
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May 16, 2010 12:42am
TimG_Oz

And sure, non-European Jews have always lived in the land and also arrived after the Zionists, but they are a minority in Israel, and a minority that is largely marginalised in that society – check out their ethnicity-based socio-economic stats sometime.

OK lets check the stats:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ethnic_divisions

Whoops! Sephardi are the majority! If you remove the Russian migration from the 1990s from the Askenazi stats, that’s pretty big majority.

Still… Luc hasn’t been there and doesn’t know shit, so we should go easy on him…..
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May 16, 2010 1:23am
adrianb

Luc,

I’m intrigued that, by your definition, many of the Maori tribes could never count as indigenous, having displaced earlier occupiers of the land. All the stories of Tainui, for example, describe the conquest, killing, and eating of the original tangata whenua. You must surely be aware that even Maori historians like Ranganui Walker describe the period of Polynesian settlement as being in waves, and taking place over several hundred years.

So, here’s my question to you. If a Maori tribe like Tainui comes and attains its lands via conquest, and then more by conquest (north towards the Hauraki), how on earth do you describe them as “indigenous’?? Because if you include the those that gained by war or extermination into your definition, then you need include a whole lot of peoples, including, I would imagine, the current inhabitants of Tasmania. In the Chathams, would you accord indigenous status to the descendents of ngati mutunga and ngati tama, who killed some 19/20ths of the occupying Mori Ori and assumed control of these lands. And, if not, why not?

Your rhetoric here – I won’t yet call it debate – appears to me to be romantic, poorly considered, and altogether incoherent. Could you please outline for us what constitutes indigeneity (and what does not) in your moral theory? I would be most interested.
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May 16, 2010 1:25am
Jack5

Lucy Hansen, proclaiming he doesn’t hate Jews, at 11.31, posted:

…the Ashkenazi jews from Europe who have almost no more genetic relation to the Middle East than I do….

Note Lucy doesn’t give Jews a capital “J”.

His ad hominem argument (“there you go again, spouting nonsense”) and repeated proclamations he isn’t opposed to Jews – only to Zionists – ring hollow.

Consider these quotes from Wikipedia and judge for yourself whether Lucy is bigoted:

…An Ashkenazi Jew is one whose ancestry can be traced to the Jews of Central and Eastern Europe. For roughly a thousand years, the Ashkenazim were a reproductively isolated population in Europe, despite living in many countries, with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, including other Jews. Human geneticists have identified genetic variations that have high frequencies among Ashkenazi Jews, but not in the general European population. This is true for patrilineal markers (Y-chromosome haplotypes) as well as for matrilineal markers (mitochondrial haplotypes)…

And…

…A study by Michael Seldin, a geneticist at the University of California Davis School of Medicine, found Ashkenazi Jews to be a clear, relatively homogenous genetic subgroup. Strikingly, regardless of the place of origin, Ashkenazi Jews can be grouped in the same genetic cohort — that is, regardless of whether an Ashkenazi Jew’s ancestors came from Poland, Russia, Hungary, Lithuania, or any other place with a historical Jewish population, they belong to the same ethnic group. The research demonstrates the endogamy of the Jewish population in Europe ..

And Lucy, 1010 binary is 10 decimal, not “close enough to 10”.
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May 16, 2010 1:27am
TimG_Oz

Haha good info Jack5…

Luc doesn’t know a thing about these “Jews” that he puts down… he just has shown his complete ignorance. That and that embarassing gaff on the demographics of Israel…..

What a clueless dickhead!
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May 16, 2010 1:38am
Manolo

“It’s quite worrying to see the degree of Muslim bashing on this site.”

Worrying? The Islamo-fascists are savages that must be exposed.
Any appeasement of the kind you indulge in will only encourage these intolerant, violent criminals.
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May 16, 2010 6:25am
Kris K

I have to take issue with Shunda on his following comment where he accuses me of the following:

Shunda barunda [GD May 15th, 2010 at 8:20 pm],

“Hey Kris, is that like the only good nigger is a dead nigger or the only good Injun is a dead ‘un?”

Kris, I am afraid he has a point.

Shunda was referring to an earlier comment by Luc who quoted me – of course Luc quoted just one sentence without the benefit of the context of my complete comment. I expect this from Luc, but I expect better from Shunda. Here’s Luc’s comment:

Luc Hansen [GD May 15th, 2010 at 7:37 pm],

Says the oh-so Christian Kris K: to be honest, Ryan, the only Muslim I would truly trust is one who has become a genuine Christian convert.

Hey Kris, is that like the only good nigger is a dead nigger or the only good Injun is a dead ‘un?

You would have fitted in with Hitler so well…

So apparently Shunda agrees with Luc in his assertion that my statement regarding me not trusting Muslims IS THE SAME AS someone stating, “the only good nigger is a dead nigger”.

Unbelievable!
I may not trust a twice convicted pedophile with my kids either, but that doesn’t imply I wish him dead. Nor can my not trusting anyone, Muslim or otherwise, be reasonably compared to, by implication, my wishing death on any ethnic group.

Why do some people around here specialise in making aspersions and character assasinations, rather than address the content of what others may say?

Once again, unbelievable! – and I do expect better from you, Shunda; epecially as a professed Christain.
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May 16, 2010 12:00pm

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