General Debate 15 August 2009

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philu

why has john key cut sports funding to the poorest schools by 25%..?

..and increased funding to the richest schools..?

(they ‘changed the funding formula..eh..?

..and ..hey presto..!..done deed..!)

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/john-key-stcks-the-boot-into-the-poorest-schoolscuts-their-sports-funding-by-25and-gives-it-to-the-richest-schoolsholy-more-class-warfarebatman/

any doubts still this government is not engaged in class warfare..?

take from the have-nots..

and give to the haves..

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 15, 2009 8:09am
mickysavage

“any doubts still this government is not engaged in class warfare..?”

I agree with Phil

This is appalling. What is even worse is that it was spun that National were doing something to get more young people into sport.

This is only true if you leave out the poorer half of the population. Speaks volumes about their mindset.
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August 15, 2009 8:15am
Redbaiter

What happens in America eventually happens in NZ. The whole destructive paradigm of Progressivism came to NZ from the US, where it combined with the innate class war mentality of a legion of UK immigrants. This toxic political mix of extreme leftism (leaving aside the temporoary aberration of Douglas) has gradually driven NZ deeper and deeper and deeper into the dead sea of socialism.

Over the decades, our public institutions have gradually fallen into the hands of the socialists. Our education system, our bureaucracy, our electronic and print media are nowadays almost fully controlled by socialism’s high priests and their acolytes.

Nowadays, in New Zealand, there’s virtually no opposition to the socialist dreadnought. It sails across calm seas in balmy weather with its destination of totalitarian socialist Nirvana not far over the horizon. Its crew daily congratulate themselves on their successes. You can see them gloating and plotting on Public Address and other socialist meeting places. They sneer at the fore lock tugging yokels of National, who deep down in the engine room shovel coal into the boilers, and keep the socialist ship on course and at speed.

But over on the starboard side, there are signs of an approaching storm. The US citizens, those ungrateful wretches are becoming mutinous. Fed up with the corruption of the media and the spineless euneuchs who call themselves the Republican party, the man in the street is making a stand. Obama has been the catalyst for a long overdue rebellion. Contempt and anger now flows freely in American streets and townhalls. The revolution is underway.

As Progressivism came here from the US, so will this revolution come to NZ, and the same contempt and anger, driven by betrayal and powerlessness, will be seen in NZ streets. I’d say its five to ten years away, but for those who like myself seek its early arrrival, I say keep up the fight. Keep boring holes in the hull. The NZ ship of socialism will eventually founder and sink under the same flood of anger and contempt that is apparent in the US.

We, the would be mutineers and rebels, can take so much heart from what is happening in America.
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August 15, 2009 8:18am
expat

the three wise men emerge – ha ha ha!
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August 15, 2009 8:31am
starboard

When are National /Key /English / Bennett going to tackle the issue of dpb lifestylers ??
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August 15, 2009 8:35am
philu

“..Fed up with the corruption of the media and the spineless euneuchs who call themselves the Republican party, the man in the street is making a stand. Obama has been the catalyst for a long overdue rebellion. Contempt and anger now flows freely in American streets and townhalls. The revolution is underway..”

just before you rush off to sew up a flag..there..red..

the townhall screamers are the pawns of big pharma/big medicine..

..who have been whipped up by yr rightwing nutjob commentators..like glenn beck..?

(jon stewart on beck:..”the operation on his arse failed..he is still talking total shit”)

and the vast majority of those raving hysterics being filmed (doing redbaiter impersonations))..aren’t ‘revolutionary-locals’..

..an analysis of the sign-in sheets at those town hall events..has shown they are out-of-towners’..

..(a travelling cavalcade of frothing righties..whipped up by beck..

..shall we call them ‘the travelling pharma-pawns”..?..)

so..a ‘revolution’..?..betsy..?..

(..i don’t think so..eh..?..

..just put away that sewing kit..)

“..As Progressivism came here from the US, so will this revolution come to NZ, and the same contempt and anger, driven by betrayal and powerlessness, will be seen in NZ streets. I’d say its five to ten years away, but for those who like myself seek its early arrrival, I say keep up the fight..”

and this one..?

part of what you say could come about..

but it won’t be the rich white boys kicking against ‘progressivism’..eh..?

it’ll be the poor/disposessed created by decades of reaganism/thatcherism/douglasism/’the free market’..

and that ever-growing gulf between the haves.and the have nots.

do you really think there will be no eventual reaction..?

to all those decades of rightwing ‘action’..?

(and i include the last labour govt in that ‘decades of rightwing’..

..’cos..really..

in nine years..they did s.f.a. for the poor/disposessed..)

y’see red..the middle class can live with the poorest being fucked over..

..it’s when their lot are really hurting..

..that revolutions take place..

..so red..

when/if any revolution does come..

..you won’t be a revolutionary..

you will be an oppressor..

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 15, 2009 8:40am
Redbaiter

The former chief of Romania’s espionage service sees an American president fully invested in the lies he helped disseminate along with the KGB.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/a-u-s-president-raised-on-kgb-propaganda/

This is part three of a series.
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August 15, 2009 8:40am
billyborker

HEY RED!

Found the birthcert yet?

GB Trudeau, world’s second best political cartoonist, has.

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20090810

And the one today is a hummer!
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August 15, 2009 8:46am
Redbaiter

The left hate Glenn Beck. He shines truth and light on the corrupt socialist power bloc.

If you don’t have Sky, or any other way to watch Fox News, you won’t have heard of him. His show though is enjoying phenomenal success.

Naturally, the left are afraid and desperately want to shut him down. They are attempting to organise a consumer boycott of Beck’s advertisers.

Good to see a counter group. People are now organising in support of Beck. Another sign that no longer do the left have things going all their own way in the US.

http://www.defendglenn.com/
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August 15, 2009 8:53am
billyborker

Oh No, people actually using the power of the free market? Shock HORROR! Geebus Red, better organise (or is it organize?) a law to prevent consumers making choices about the products they buy.
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August 15, 2009 8:56am
Redbaiter

Great article that attacks in plain and simple language the attempts by the Obama camp and its media acolytes to ridicule and marginalize those who believe Obama needs to show the documentation and records that he himself demanded of John McCain and George Bush.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/you_might_be_a_birther_if.html

Nothing has so far so starkly demonstrated the widespread political corruption of the American media and the popular culture than the issue of Obama’s refuals to provide the details of his actual birth, and his determination to keep his long form birth certificate from public view at any cost.
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August 15, 2009 9:02am
joe90

Dear ColorOfChange.org member,

More and more, right-wing talk show hosts are bringing race-based fear mongering into the mainstream, but FOX’s Glenn Beck just took it to another level. On Tuesday, Beck said:

This president has exposed himself as a guy over and over and over again who has a deep-seated hatred for white people… this guy is, I believe, a racist.

It’s part of a larger argument Beck has been making: that President Obama is using the White House to serve the needs of Black communities at White people’s expense. This kind of talk stirs up fear, hate, and it can lead to violence.

Together we can stop Glenn Beck. Starting today we’re calling Beck’s advertisers, asking them if they want to be associated with this kind of racist hate and fear-mongering. When they see tens of thousands of people signing on behind that question, we believe they’ll move their advertising dollars elsewhere, damaging the viability of his show and possibly putting him out of business.
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August 15, 2009 9:04am
Cerium

Sounds smart, don’t just throw a hissy fit over losing an election, try and start a revolution. There are already signs popular sentiment is the extremists have overplayed their hand.

And here? There is more likely to be a popular revolution from the natives than there is from the hard righties. There is no popular support. The majority of people in the middle are happy enough with how our government is going at the moment.

Even Labour who have a sizable core of support can’t make any (good) impression against National at the moment – because most of the middlies are not concerned over most of what is going on.
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August 15, 2009 9:05am
billyborker

And the longer Obama keeps this going, the longer the looniy fringe of the GOP keep lapping it up, the harder it will be for the GOP to reinvent itself as a party with, you know, policies.
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August 15, 2009 9:06am
billyborker

“[Obama] is someone who sees America as imperfect enough to pal around with terrorists who targeted their own country.”
— text sent to Sarah Palin by McCain staff during ’08 election

“Yes yes yes. Pls let me say this!!!”
— Palin’s e-mailed response

“It was awesome.”
— Palin, in another e-mail after delivering the lines
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August 15, 2009 9:07am
Redbaiter

“Nothing has so far so starkly demonstrated the widespread political corruption of the American media”

Well, nothing until they started similar attacks on the Town Hall protestors that is. The American Mainstream Media are totally controlled by Soros/ Obama and therefore totally corrupt.

The good part is they’re (the mainstream media and popular television culture) at last dying.

People realise nowadays they have been betrayed by the media.

The public now brings the news themselves, via the internet and hand held video cameras, and the leftist propagandists and liars and cowards in the mainstream media find themselves more impotent every day.
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August 15, 2009 9:09am
Cerium

Red, if you want to make any headway with your revolution you may need to come up with some real issues that most people won’t laugh off as ridiculous. Or are you just trying to find enough loony tunes to stir up?
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August 15, 2009 9:11am
billyborker

Ann Coulter on Orly Taitz “A nutjob”.

Guess we can see where reddie fits on the line now, eh? Even the biggest blonde bimbo of the hard right won’t have anything to do with Red’s best mates.
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August 15, 2009 9:11am
Banana Llama

Unemployment is still to low for any armed uprising to kick off, best keep the powder dry Red.
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August 15, 2009 9:15am
billyborker

People realise nowadays they have been betrayed by the media.

And the biggest betrayer of the people? FOX!

Why do loony tunes like Red rant and rave against the MSM and yet sing the praises of Fox, the M’est of the MSM? Has Red seen how much of the MSM Rupert controls? Nutbar fruitloop whakjob. if I may channel d4j for a minute.
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August 15, 2009 9:16am
Cerium

Banana is right, revolution usually only happens from a deepseated discontent with a large proportion of the population. Hardly likely to see people revolting over the smacking referendum. They may be revolted, but not revolting.
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August 15, 2009 9:17am
billyborker

Banana Llama (490) Vote: 0 0 Says:

August 15th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Unemployment is still to low for any armed uprising to kick off, best keep the powder dry Red.

But to do that, he’d have to stop foaming at the mouth. 🙂
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August 15, 2009 9:18am
Bob

In a another vicious unprovoked attack a man was stabbed in the head seven times in a Burger King restaurant in Hamilton. The attacker was described as Maori or Polynesian. How many times after robberies and serious assaults are we told police are looking for a Maori or Polynesian? It seems two or three times for every description of a European. The majority of children killed or harmed are Maori. The number in jail is all out of proportion. Considering the proportion of Maori in the general population it would seem in negative statistics they are up to ten times worse than Europeans. Who makes up the majority of gangs?

When I hear we are at the top of negative statistics compared with European countries I get annoyed knowing Maori are largely putting us there. As a European I would like all such statistics to be separated into Maori/Polynesian and the rest of us. Then perhaps we Europeans will compare more favourably with the rest of the world.
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August 15, 2009 9:24am
Redbaiter

All that is needed is the catalyst. In the US, it is Obama. In NZ, the catalyst is still to become apparent.

My old Grannie takes frequent bus trips, and I sometimes deliver her to the depot. I frequently observed at the depot, a loud mouthed old leftist hag who often attempted to generate public ridicule of George Bush. Most were intimidated, but I spoke out and on the odd occasion I travelled with my Grannie, I confronted the woman on her lies and propaganda.

At first the other travellers only expressed their support to me in secret, but after a few trips, they openly confronted the woman who had previously intimidated them so. She became a figure of ridicule herself and has now shut up and ceased her propaganda.

Just keep speaking out against the lies and propaganda shouted by the left. Eventually the Potemkin village they have built in NZ will collapse like the hollow disgusting fraud it really is.
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August 15, 2009 9:25am
radvad

“the townhall screamers are the pawns of big pharma/big medicine..”

Oh yeah. From Powerline:

We noted here that the drug companies intend to spend $150 million–more than the McCain campaign’s entire television advertising budget–on ads supporting Obamacare. Today on CNN, Wolf Blitzer asked Linda Douglass whether the ad campaign was part of the deal that the drug companies struck with the Obama administration:

BLITZER: Did the White House make a secret deal with PhRMA, the pharmaceutical lobby here in Washington, that would limit how much cost reductions they would have going forward over the next 10 years?
DOUGLASS: Here is what — what happened. The White House, the pharmaceutical industry, the Senate Finance Committee agreed that the pharmaceutical industry would contribute $80 billion over 10 years — a very, very substantial sum of money that would lower the high cost of prescription drugs for seniors, who are paying exorbitant costs for prescription drugs. That was a crucial piece of this deal, as well as other steps that they would take to lower costs.

It’s an $80 billion agreement. That’s what the White House, the Senate Finance Committee and PhRMA have agreed to. And the final details are being worked out with the — with the Senate Finance Committee.

BLITZER: Did PhRMA, in exchange, make a promise of $150 million to pay for advertising to help the president’s plan go forward?

DOUGLASS: What — what you have, Wolf, is this deal that is $80 billion. And we are very pleased, obviously, that — that the pharmaceutical industry agrees with us, that there’s an urgent need for comprehensive health insurance reform that’s going to protect Americans from unfair rules, from rising costs. They agree with that. They’ve agreed with it from the beginning. That’s why they came to us and we worked out this agreement with the pharmaceutical industry. And they’re supporting health reform legislation. And that is good for the country.

BLITZER: So is part of the deal that they would support this legislation, go forward with $150 million in advertising?

DOUGLASS: You know, Wolf, part of the agreement here is that we’re all going to work together to bring comprehensive health reform. I mean, clearly, the pharmaceutical industry said we are going to support comprehensive health reform. And that’s what they’re doing.

I guess that’s a yes. This is beyond Astroturf; this is a veritable Jurassic Park of fake foliage.
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August 15, 2009 9:26am
joe90

Beck’s increasing lunacy is having an effect — major advertisers are deserting his show.

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — In what is shaping up to be one of the more effective boycott campaigns in years, advertisers are abandoning the “Glenn Beck” show on Fox News following the host’s incendiary comments that President Barack Obama is a “racist” and has a “deep-seated hatred for white people.”
Among the advertisers to pull spots from the popular cable talk show are Geico, owned by Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway (BRK .A 101,550, -600.00, -0.59%) (BRK .B 3,329, -26.13, -0.78%) ; Procter & Gamble (PG 51.93, -0.37, -0.71%) ; Sargento Cheese; and Progressive Insurance (PGR 16.26, -0.17, -1.04%) , according to the companies and Color of Change, one group that is organizing a campaign against the program.
Beck, who made the remarks during another Fox News program late last month, is among the network’s biggest draws, pulling in an average of about 2 million viewers. (Fox News is a unit of News Corp. (NWS 12.61, -0.40, -3.08%) , which also owns MarketWatch, the publisher of this report.)
Geico didn’t respond to a request for comment but sent Color of Change an email saying it had “instructed its ad-buying service to redistribute its inventory of rotational spots on [Fox] to their other network programs, exclusive of the Glenn Beck program.”
Privately held Sargento told its media buyer not to put any of its ads in Beck’s show, said a spokeswoman.
“We market our products to people regardless of their political affiliations,” she said. “Yet we do not want to be associated with hateful speech used by either liberal or conservative television hosts.”
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August 15, 2009 9:28am
Cerium

NZ is a lot different to the US. We don’t have the raving lunatics they have in the media, especially on talkback radio. And we have nothing like their bible belt, a sizable chuck of the population with heads stuck in their bibles but forgetting to read the message.

Trying to use a democratically elected president as a catalyst for revolution, hard right fascism. That’s what you stand for isn’t it Red? You haven’t made any claims to support democracy. You want your way, any way, bugger the casualties.
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August 15, 2009 9:31am
radvad

Linda Douglass, btw, is the Obama staffer who asked Americans to spy on their neighbours by reporting any “fishy” comments on Obamacare to her.

If Bush had done anything like this Phil U etc would still be frothing and rightly so. How come the One gets a pass?
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August 15, 2009 9:33am
Redbaiter

It demonstrates how enfeebled the left are becoming when all they have in response to criticism is lies and propaganda from their corrupt media acolytes.

Which they present again and again in apparent complete ignorance of the fact that such writers are a widely despised source of information and opinion, and a force that is well and truly spent.
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August 15, 2009 9:37am
Cerium

There are a lot of things Obama doesn’t get an automatic pass on. But he passed the election post first.

There is a dangerous mood growing in the US. Being deliberately stoked for political purposes. But there is a high risk of a bloody big backlash against it. There may be a lot of dipsticks in the US but there are also a lot of intelligent people who can see (better than Red) what is actually happening.
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August 15, 2009 9:37am
Cerium

I’m confident Red’s political support in NZ would be significantly less than that of Act. He can engineer a few clicks here but even the righties with common sense don’t buy into it.
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August 15, 2009 9:38am
Redbaiter

Keith Olbermann- “GLENN BECK MUST BE STOPPED..!!!!!”
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August 15, 2009 9:40am
tom hunter

radvad

Your wasting your time. Most of the lefties here are so filled with contempt for right-wingers that they don’t even bother reading the comments.

I put the Big Pharma stuff in a GD thread several days ago:

how corporate America (well Big Pharma anyway) is going to screw a lot of ordinary people:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/health/policy/09lobby.html?_r=1&ref=us

and now with Robert Reich as an added bonus:
http://robertreich.blogspot.com/2009/08/white-houses-deal-with-big-pharma.html

And yet the Left still do not get the problems with Big Government. Here’s a hint – Big Business loves them!

Not that you would know this from some of the comments here. It’s not a debate, it’s an opportunity to simply pump the same leftist tropes over and over again.

Meanwhile people who have lives and work and lack the time to repeatedly refute the same points simply shrug their shoulders and give up – leaving the space to those who want nothing else to do in life than pursue their political objectives for society, people who “eat, sleep and breath politics”.
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August 15, 2009 9:45am
radvad

An example of what Redbaiter is talking about. A private citizen puts two entries on Facebook and forces an Obama back down.
From WSJ. Enjoy

PALIN WINS
By JAMES TARANTO
The first we heard about Sarah Palin’s “death panels” comment was in a conversation last Friday with an acquaintance who was appalled by it. Our interlocutor is not a Democratic partisan but a high-minded centrist who deplores extremist rhetoric whatever the source. We don’t even know if he has a position on ObamaCare. From his description, it sounded to us as though Palin really had gone too far.

A week later, it is clear that she has won the debate.

President Obama himself took the comments of the former governor of the 47th-largest state seriously enough to answer them directly in his so-called town-hall meeting Tuesday in Portsmouth, N.H. As we noted Wednesday, he was callous rather than reassuring, speaking glibly–to audience laughter–about “pulling the plug on grandma.”

The Los Angeles Times reports that Palin has won a legislative victory as well:

A Senate panel has decided to scrap the part of its healthcare bill that in recent days has given rise to fears of government “death panels,” with one lawmaker suggesting the proposal was just too confusing.
The Senate Finance Committee is taking the idea of advance care planning consultations with doctors off the table as it works to craft its version of healthcare legislation, a Democratic committee aide said Thursday.
Sen. Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, ranking Republican on the committee, said the panel dropped the idea because it could be “misinterpreted or implemented incorrectly.” . . .
The Palin claim about “death panels” was so widely discredited that the White House has begun openly quoting it in an effort to show that opponents of the healthcare overhaul are misinformed.
You have to love that last bit. The fearless, independent journalists of the Los Angeles Times justify their assertion that the Palin claim was “widely discredited” with an appeal to authority–the authority of the White House, which is to say, the other side in the debate. One suspects the breathtaking inadequacy of this argument would have been obvious to Times reporters Christi Parsons and Andrew Zajac if George W. Bush were still president. And of course this appears in a story about how the Senate was persuaded to act in accord with Palin’s position–which doesn’t prove that position right but does show that it is widely (though, to be sure, not universally) credited.

Podcast
James Taranto on Palin and the “death panel” debate.
One can hardly deny that Palin’s reference to “death panels” was inflammatory. But another way of putting that is that it was vivid and attention-getting. Level-headed liberal commentators who favor more government in health care, including Slate’s Mickey Kaus and the Washington Post’s Charles Lane, have argued that the end-of-life provision in the bill is problematic–acknowledging in effect (and, in Kaus’s case, in so many words) that Palin had a point.

If you believe the media, Sarah Palin is a mediocre intellect, if even that, while President Obama is brilliant. So how did she manage to best him in this debate? Part of the explanation is that disdain for Palin reflects intellectual snobbery more than actual intellect. Still, Obama’s critics, in contrast with Palin’s, do not deny the president’s intellectual aptitude. Intelligence, however, does not make one immune from hubris.

For a wonderful example of such hubris, check out this post from David Kurtz of TalkingPointsMemo.com:

Is there anything quite as unsettling as when the nation’s political class (and I use that term broadly to encompass the occasionally political, like the tea partiers) turns its fleeting but intense focus to a new (for them) and complex topic, like end-of-life issues?
It seems like years of painstaking work to nudge our death-denying culture toward a more frank and humane approach to our own mortality and dying could be erased by one misguided national discussion set off by none other than Sarah Palin.
Except that Palin didn’t “set off” this discussion; President Obama did by trying to ram through legislation postalizing the medical system with no time for debate or reflection. How to care for dying patients is a serious, sensitive and complicated matter, one with which American families struggle every day. If you truly don’t want the “political class” involved, your quarrel is with the man who is pushing for more federal involvement in this most personal of matters. It’s entirely understandable that people would respond to such an effort by shouting, “Keep your laws off my grandma!”

Where’s the Death Panel When You Need It?
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August 15, 2009 9:46am
joe90

Here’s an hour of Glenn Beck craziness edited down to ten minutes of WTF!!.

http://www.youtube.com/v/YFz2Nqj2lVM&hl=en&fs=1
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August 15, 2009 9:47am
Chuck Bird

“The majority of children killed or harmed are Maori.”

Bob, that is simply not true. Maori are overrepresented in child abuse that is a fact. However, greatly exaggerating the statistics as part of a racist rant does little to resolve the problem. If you look at the stats there is a clear correlation between child abuse and lack of a biological father. Do you blame Maori for the high rate of marriage breakdown? Did Maori demand the introduction of the DPB on demand? Did Maori demand a lot of the liberal policies that has lead to a lower number of children raised in a house with both biological parents married to each other?

The cause of the problem of child abuse is clear. However correcting these problems requires a leader who cares more about what is right than what will keep in popular.

http://www.cyf.govt.nz/documents/factsheet.pdf

Children living in households with an adult unrelated to them were almost 50 times more likely to die of an inflicted injury than children living in households with two biological parents.

10 Parents who are co-habiting are more likely to commit child homicide than married parents.

11 Step-children are more likely to be killed than other children, even after controlling for other factors.

12 For example, a US study found that children aged under five years were 8.5 times more likely to be killed by a stepfather than a biological father.

13 Other research shows that children are less likely to be killed by their biological father as they grow older.

14 Maori children are more exposed to the risk of fatal child maltreatment associated with having a stepparent, as Maori children are twice as likely as New Zealand European and other children to be raised in a blended family.

15 However, the small numbers and volatility for child death statistics means even more caution is needed when disaggregating the data by ethnic groups. With this in mind, in the five years from 1999 to 2003, Maori children died from maltreatment at an average annual rate of 1.5 per 100,000 children. Over the same period, New Zealand European and other children died at an average annual rate of 0.7 per 100,000 children.

UNICEF’s 2003 cross-nation study found that while ethnic minorities often have higher levels of child maltreatment, “…it seems likely that operative factor is not ethnicity but poverty (which disproportionately affects ethnic minority families)”.
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August 15, 2009 10:03am
radvad

Jeremiah Wright
Officer Dan Crowley
I don’t say he does but is it possible Glen Beck has a point? And the courage to say it.
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August 15, 2009 10:06am
getstaffed

Chuck – I’ve posted this research reference before… but it’s as relevant as ever.

It shows that the incidence of child death and injury rises as the family structure breaks down to look less like a traditional biological dad+mum+kids. Table 2 on Page 5 is particularly disturbing.
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August 15, 2009 10:13am
peanut

Well considering this is general debate, and John Key is looking at revamping the health system, I thought I would put some ideas out there.

If you all have a GP, you are probably enrolled with a PHO. Did you know that your health information is no longer confidential. Anyone in the PHO or MOH can access your sensitive information.

It has been a planned move from Labour since around 2003. Their idea was that; “to enable more efficient health care” they needed as much information as they could about patients medical problems. So, they created the PHO to supposedly give cheaper healthcare. But, when you sign their form you give them permission to access ALL your health information.

Now, why does this worry me? Everyone has an enemy or two, thats life. But when that person works in the PHO and accessess your health information and leaks it to other parties, you have a problem.

I suggest you all have a good think about what you have told your doctors and more importantly, what they have typed into their computers. Sound like a conspiracy theory, I think not. Its a real concern.
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August 15, 2009 10:19am
Redbaiter

A very good article highlighting the social destruction wrought on the UK by socialism-

http://www.express.co.uk/ourcomments/view/120523/Leo-McKinstry
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August 15, 2009 10:22am
getstaffed

Red, my son is working in a UK school at the moment. The article’s description of the condition of schooling pretty much matches what he has told me.
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August 15, 2009 10:31am
peanut

And why did Labour want to know about your medical problems?

To have more control and manipulation of society.
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August 15, 2009 10:31am
getstaffed

peanut – there’s plenty of value in portability of medical data, and centralised storage/retrieval provide for that.
the issue for me is control. i should be able to choose which sections of my health history are exposed to which authorised medical professionals and for how long. having everything go into a database with access control being centrally managed is a hugh privacy concern.
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August 15, 2009 10:42am
peanut

But getstaffed, you have no control. They take all the information and this has raised concerns with privacy and informed consent. This access is not discussed with you, so you are unable to give informed consent.When you sign their form, it gives them unreserved access to your medical notes.

They also forgot to factor in human nature. Sure, they have access codes to get into your file, but are you notified when your file is accessed? And dont you wonder how many times your file has been accessed.
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August 15, 2009 10:48am
getstaffed

i agree with you. i said i “should be able” to exercise control, but i can’t. it’s a major privacy concern. here’s a related example from today’s news on that human factor: Officer suspended for allegedly leaking secret details
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August 15, 2009 10:56am
peanut

Yes, I read that article, thanks. And there has also been a case of a nurse who accessed her ex lovers file 160 times, and leaked sensitive information.

I challenge John Key to disband the PHOs, as they are getting more and more powerful, and the patients getting less and less choice.

I knew someone who had anxiety problems due to work stress. He needed some counselling to learn to deal with the stress. His sister worked in the PHO and told him she could arrange the counselling for free, through the PHO.

She also happened to hated his wife. When he finally read her referral to the counsellor, she had written that he was suffering stress and anxiety due to a poor marriage. Nothing was written about his work stress.

Thats what I mean about too much power and human nature.
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August 15, 2009 11:10am
Chuck Bird

Getstaffed, thanks for link. The thing I was disappointed with was they did not go to the extra bother separating real step-parents. That is someone married to the mother or father of the child as opposed to live in-lovers. International research shows it makes a difference. Someone who is prepared to make the commitment of marriage it much less likely to be violent towards their partner or their partner’s child.

If those at women’s refuses were as concerned about women and children’s welfare as demonising men they would support marriage and only recommend ending a marriage as a last resort.
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August 15, 2009 11:31am
Patrick Starr

John Keys Professor Gluckman compares AGW sceptics to the original Aids debate in an attempt to discredit them

“A similar debate occurred about Aids, where a minority of scientists maintained for a long time that the disease was not caused by a virus”

Well Prof. Gluckman – considering the biggest Aids virus sceptic was the president of the Green party in Canada your comparison is probably correct, though just not as you intended it ……………………………… .

“David Crowe
Rethinking AIDS President
HBSc Hons. Biology/Mathematics, 1978 (Lakehead University, Ontario). President, Alberta Reappraising AIDS Society. Former President and Treasurer, Green Party of Alberta”

http://www.rethinkingaids.com/Content/TheBoard/tabid/60/Default.aspx
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August 15, 2009 12:03pm
joeAverage

Chuck Bird 10.03 am please dont bring up the old (racist comment)comment to any one who worries about the maori/islander violence. Maoris and islanders cause far more crimes than their numbers in the population show they should so CB , except it,our bro have a eggressive gene in their bodies
ps remember that very old saying (the island slap) that was said 20 years ago.
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August 15, 2009 12:12pm
Redbaiter

Gluckman is “advising” John Key. So Key once again gets the wrong message. That’s what happens I guess when you rely on “advisors”, and are apparently too damn dull to think about the issues yourself.

All this weak GW sycophant Gluckman, who has reportedly only been studying the issue for a month can come up with is the “Precautionary Principle”.

A stand that can be paraphrased as “Someone said the sky if falling, so everyone better put helmets on”.

Doesn’t Gluckman know of the extremely high cost of cap and trade policies? Doesn’t he think there should be some real justification for these high costs??

Doesn’t Gluckman know of the high cost of previous mistakes made because some misinformed jerk thought that precaution was the best strategy?? (Banning DDT causing millions of deaths, same with banning of chlorine, for two examples).

Doesn’t Gluckman know that spending money on possible threats means that there is less money to deal with real and present threats. Every analysis I have ever seen has demonstrated that money spent on climate change is money that could be easily spent more usefully elsewhere. Is Gluckman blind to these reports???

Glcukman is a blind misinformed idiot, but Key is a bigger idiot for employing him, and an even bigger idiot again if he listens to his weak unscientific mainstream media fed recommendations.

God, will someone not free us from these blathering morons????
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August 15, 2009 12:23pm
side show bob

I just love all these lefty frothers springing to defend the great Mac daddy. And where did they find Joe90, surely there must be a hospital somewhere missing a patient. If Glenn Beck is so far off base why do these lefty two bob retards work themselves up into such a lather. If the man is talking a load of shit one would have though that it would be simply best to leave him alone, he will hang himself. But the left know full well he must be silenced, not for his own good but for his sins against the bullshit purveyors, the rouges, the vagabonds and the charlatans that are the left. Suck it up guys.
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August 15, 2009 12:25pm
Patrick Starr

what bewilders me RB is that including Gluckman, John Key surrounds himself with these life experts. A maori activist for maori issues, a former beneficiary for welfare issues………….so who on earth is giving him advice on the smacking = child abuse issue?
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August 15, 2009 12:49pm
Redbaiter

Nancy Pelosis called those protesting against Obamacare “Un-American”. Everything I ever read about the left confirms my beleif that they are lying twisting cheats and cowards. This champagne socialist scum Pelosi has the damn gall to call genuine protesters “Un-American”, when her and her followers are the most UN-American swine that have ever held office in a country that once led the world in regard for personal freedom.

The left frequently burn the American flag.

The left constantly cheer on and do propaganda for the terrorists who hate America.

The left constantly betray America’s soldiers and undermine the country’s defence forces.

The left make friends of totalitarian dictators who desire nothing so much as to destroy America’s democracy- Saddam Hussein, Joe Stalin, (while they lived) Castro and Chavez

It is a measure of America’s social decline that they are represented on the world stage by hate filled liars and charlatans like Pelosi et al.
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August 15, 2009 12:59pm
Redbaiter

“so who on earth is giving him advice on the smacking = child abuse issue?”

Key is IMHO a politically naive floater and easily manipulated by those with more of a clue as to what is actually going down. He is surrounded by Progressives and pseudo liberals who really belong in the Labour party.

IMHO National are traitors, (like the mainstream media), and are only there to warm the seats for the next gang of more openly socialist crooks and thugs.

Eventually, the people who are paying for all of this will rise up against these traitors and charlatans, and one thing we can take from National’s (and Key’s) gutlessness is that it could be the catalyst that finally drives Productive NZ to take action themselves.

That might be too radical a view for some people, but that of course is the problem in NZ, the land of the long grey shroud over public discourse. The spectrum of views is so narrow as to be almost non-existent.
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August 15, 2009 1:09pm
Kris K

Chuck Bird 10:03 am,
“ ‘The majority of children killed or harmed are Maori.’
Bob, that is simply not true. Maori are overrepresented in child abuse that is a fact.

14 Maori children are more exposed to the risk of fatal child maltreatment associated with having a stepparent, as Maori children are twice as likely as New Zealand European and other children to be raised in a blended family.
15 However, the small numbers and volatility for child death statistics means even more caution is needed when disaggregating the data by ethnic groups. With this in mind, in the five years from 1999 to 2003, Maori children died from maltreatment at an average annual rate of 1.5 per 100,000 children. Over the same period, New Zealand European and other children died at an average annual rate of 0.7 per 100,000 children.”

Haven’t you contradicted yourself here Chuck?
You say that it “is simply not true” that “the majority of children killed or harmed are Maori”, and then cite in the same comment that “Maori children died from maltreatment at an average annual rate of 1.5 per 100,000 children. Over the same period, New Zealand European and other children died at an average annual rate of 0.7 per 100,000 children.”
And these are absolute figures, not even on a per capita basis.

Don’t your own figures confirm, in fact, that Maori, when compared to the rest of NZ children, are more likely to die from maltreatment by a factor of 2.14? [And this would in fact be far worse when considered on a per capita basis.]

I think you are confused.
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August 15, 2009 1:46pm
Chuck Bird

Kris, I am not confused. I accept your calculation.

Did you read my post? Did you read Bob’s post?

Maori are overrepresented in child abuse that is a fact. However, greatly exaggerating the statistics as part of a racist rant does little to resolve the problem.

It is one thing pointing the statistics and another thing turning it into a racist rant. There is a difference between 2 times and 10 times. It is sad to see the positive Karma such anti Maori racists comments get. Typical of racist Bob remains anonymous. If we were to discus homosexual adoption which incidentally Key is a fan of I would be happy top state my view in a non abusive way and sign my full name.
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August 15, 2009 2:21pm
Redbaiter

A chart Gluckman should look at-

http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c0120a5368820970c-pi
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August 15, 2009 2:42pm
Viking2

Change of subject for the better.

Students let off steam as bullrush ban overturned

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/2756037/Students-let-off-steam-as-bullrush-ban-overturned

Welcome ot the return of boys and men. Long long overdue.
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August 15, 2009 3:43pm
Hurf Durf

the townhall screamers are the pawns of big pharma/big medicine..

The same Big Pharma the White House has done a major deal with? From your very own HuffPo: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/13/internal-memo-confirms-bi_n_258285.html

A memo obtained by the Huffington Post confirms that the White House and the pharmaceutical lobby secretly agreed to precisely the sort of wide-ranging deal that both parties have been denying over the past week.

The memo, which according to a knowledgeable health care lobbyist was prepared by a person directly involved in the negotiations, lists exactly what the White House gave up, and what it got in return.

It says the White House agreed to oppose any congressional efforts to use the government’s leverage to bargain for lower drug prices or import drugs from Canada — and also agreed not to pursue Medicare rebates or shift some drugs from Medicare Part B to Medicare Part D, which would cost Big Pharma billions in reduced reimbursements.

In exchange, the Pharmaceutical Researchers and Manufacturers Association (PhRMA) agreed to cut $80 billion in projected costs to taxpayers and senior citizens over ten years. Or, as the memo says: “Commitment of up to $80 billion, but not more than $80 billion.”

Read the comments for delicious lulz.
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August 15, 2009 3:45pm
Viking2

Something for redbaiter and others. Chill out info. AAP
Last updated 05:00 15/08/2009

NICE CUPPA: A study by an Australian university professor has finally confirmed what many tea drinkers have long believed – that a steaming cuppa can help soothe in a crisis.
Relevant offers

Feeling stressed out or and anxious? Go put the kettle on and make a cup of tea.

A study by an Australian university professor has finally confirmed what many tea drinkers have long believed – that a steaming cuppa can help soothe in a crisis.

Malcolm Cross, a psychologist at City University London, has found that drinking tea reduces stress levels and can make people calmer.

For his study, 42 volunteers were subjected to a timed maths quiz, with half the group given a glass of water and the other half a cup of tea afterwards.

While the stress of the test caused water drinkers’ anxiety levels to soar by 25 percent, the tea drinkers recorded a four per cent fall.

Having a cuppa helped the tea drinkers feel they had been “cared for”, while the actual process of tea making created “communality” and “solidarity” among the group.

And the perfect recipe for a soothing cuppa? Exactly 1.6 cups of English breakfast tea mixed with milk and one-and-a-half sugars did the trick.

Cross, who hails from Orange in western NSW, said many people repeatedly turned to tea in times of stress because they had strong memories of its comforting qualities.

“When we debriefed the study participants, people spontaneously reported that they associated tea with being cared for and looked after,” he told AAP.

“Many recounted significant events with having a cup of tea, for example, after they fell off a bike or had a car accident.

“There’s a strong tendency for people to turn to putting the kettle on if they have something to reflect on or need to talk about.

“It takes time and it requires forethought. You have to stop what you are doing and you are often doing it for someone else.”

Cross said he did not believe taking time out for a coffee had the same calming effects as tea drinking.

“It has a very different association,” he said. “The caffeine is greater (in a cup of coffee) and it’s a stronger stimulant, so it may have the opposite effect.”

While tea drinking is considered a quintessential British tradition, Cross said he believed its calming effects were universal.

“There’s something quite civilised about drinking tea and the ritual of afternoon tea and putting aside the time and rituals associated with that,” he said.
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August 15, 2009 3:48pm
philu

i am awareof that hurf..

i have already done a story on it..

..and the bit that really sticks in the craw..

is that the $80 billion is over ten years..

and represents just 2% of the projected 3 trillion pill-bill over that time..

and the white house is presenting it as a ‘victory’..?

w.t.f..!

obama is big pharmas’ ‘bitch’..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 15, 2009 3:49pm
Alan Wilkinson

Didn’t do much for Lange.
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August 15, 2009 3:50pm
Viking2

And just to get the gossips in the South going.

Kiwi gets her hands on gold sex toy
By CLIO FRANCIS – Stuff.co.nz

GOLD RUSH: The 18 karat gold vibrator, called Yva by Lelo, sold to a South Island woman for $2,229.
Relevant offers

An online sex shop has sold New Zealand’s first gold sex toy for a big figure sum to a South Island woman.

The 18 karat gold vibrator, called Yva by Lelo, was custom made by a Swedish company and flown in especially for the anonymous buyer.

The modernist sex toy sold for $2,229 and is only the second sold in Australasia.

Sexgear.co.nz brand manager Natalie Blakemore said the company had been “stunned” to sell the piece in the midst of the recession.

“This really is the pièce de résistance of all vibrators so we were surprised to find that it had been sold during a time when money is supposedly so tight”.

“Every day you hear messages of doom and gloom about the recession, but we are yet to feel the effects.”

The company had experienced 130 per cent growth in sales since last year, she said.

Ms Blackmore said the secret to the company’s success was the growing popularity of buying online along with the privacy and discretion it offered customers.

“On a more personal level, we’re fortunate that the products we sell make people happy and increase the level of closeness and pleasure in their lives.

“In these difficult times, no matter how tough it’s been at the office, it’s good to go home to a nice bed — and a little intimacy.”
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August 15, 2009 3:54pm
Hurf Durf

BillyBonkers, phool and Delirium ruin another perfectly good thread with their strawmen, bile and agitprop. Oh well.
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August 15, 2009 3:54pm
Viking2

His problem was the Pope not the tea.
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August 15, 2009 3:56pm
philu

the white house saying that about that dog/turkey of a deal..

is kinda like key/national trumpeting ‘more moneyfor school sports/children..

when the reality is that the poorest schools have had their sports funding cut by 25%

..they really are the ‘nasty’-party..eh..?

and that all sits good with you righties..?

that cutting of sports funding for the poorest schools..?

..to give it to the richest schools..?

..eh..?

makes you ‘proud’/hold yr head high..?

twinned with the cutting of education funding for special needs/severely handicapped children..

..it sums up national..

how can it not..?

and hasn’t ‘double-dip-bill-from-dipton’ been noticably absent/quiet..?

whyd’yareckon that is..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 15, 2009 3:57pm
getstaffed

Would the person who gave red -ve kama for his 2:42 post kindy refute the figures shown in the chart
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August 15, 2009 4:00pm
philu

diddums..!..hurf..!

wd u like someone to smooth yr pillow..?

(but also ‘funny’..eh..?..you blustered away at me in a ‘gotcha!’-manner..and i agreed with you..

then you do yr 3.54..

heh..!

(‘disconnected’..eh..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 15, 2009 4:00pm
Hurf Durf

You can easily talk about how government (and by extension, taxpayer’s) money should be spent whilst contributing absolutely nothing to that system, can’t you, phool?

I’m more concerned about politicians from all sides troughing rather than if Wesley College can’t send it First XI to Dunedin.

..to give it to the richest schools..?

Citation needed.
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August 15, 2009 4:02pm
philu

“..Citation needed…”

let me walk you thru it..hurf..

now..overall funding fr school sports has increased..

(are you still with me..?..)

..and funding for the poorest schools has been cut by 25%..

(is that key in his ‘caring for the underclass’ mode..?..again..?)

now..are you still with me..?

now..ask yourself the question..

where do you thing the increased and cut funds will go..?

if you still are having problems..

..get a grown-up to explain..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 15, 2009 4:25pm
Viking2

Socialists never never sleep. Aussie is about to pay for their stupid mistake of electing frudd.

Family homes face a wealth tax

UPDATED: Adele Ferguson and David Uren | August 15, 2009
Article from: The Australian

THE Rudd government is considering slapping a wealth tax on the country’s most expensive family homes;

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25931551-601,00.html
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August 15, 2009 4:28pm
Hurf Durf

where do you thing the increased and cut funds will go..?

From the Herald website: because the new money was not linked to a school’s decile rating.

So crap schools get less funding for being crap now whereas in the US, crap car companies get more funding for being crap.

Sounds like a perfect time to move, phool.
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August 15, 2009 4:32pm
philu

ok..so yr conceding that fact..

..and switching to a ‘go away!’ argument..?

(have you met murray m…?

i reckon you two wd have very interesting (to yourselves) conversations..

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 15, 2009 4:53pm
Hurf Durf

Do your children go to a lower-decile school, phool? Perhaps you could donate all that benefit money you get to a lower-decile school for its sport programmes? Or perhaps come off the DPB altogether so the government can put that money into lower-decile sports programmes. But in the end, does it really matter if Wesley College can’t send it First XI to Dunedin?
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August 15, 2009 4:59pm
philu

viking2..soon you will have a capital gains tax here..

(sold on the grounds/imperative of stopping the housing market from overheating..)

followed by real ‘user-pays’ taxes..(pollution taxes..for want of a better word..)

..in a raft of areas..

then the windfall-taxes..

and don’t forget that in the third year of the last great depression..

..that personal income tax rose from 24% to 79%.

eh..?

so..i see little possibility of us being able to avoid that pattern/cycle/outcome..

eh…?.

well..there’s a bunch of anathemas for you to be getting on with..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 15, 2009 5:01pm
philu

and this is what we are sending our soldiers to kill/die for..?

in our name..?

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/this-is-the-regime-john-key-is-sending-our-soldiers-to-killdieto-supportin-our-nameafghanistan-passes-barbaric-law-diminishing-womens-rights/

“..Rehashed legislation allows husbands to deny wives food if they fail to obey sexual demands

Afghanistan has quietly passed a law permitting Shia men to deny their wives food and sustenance if they refuse to obey their husbands’ sexual demands..

.. despite international outrage over an earlier version of the legislation which President Hamid Karzai had promised to review.

The new final draft of the legislation also grants guardianship of children exclusively to their fathers and grandfathers..

.. and requires women to get permission from their husbands to work.

“It also effectively allows a rapist to avoid prosecution by paying ‘blood money’ to a girl who was injured when he raped her,” ..

.. the US charity Human Rights Watch said..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 15, 2009 6:53pm
paradigm

Disgraceful story on TV1 news:
They report the findings of the police complaints authority; that police actions in a chase bordered on misconduct. One person, a passenger, was killed when their (disqualified) driver crashed his (unlicensed) car while trying to evade police. The passenger was not wearing his seat belt at the time of the crash.

Stuff has more details:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/christchurch/2746445/Police-officers-actions-in-fatal-chase-bordered-on-misconduct

What pisses me off is the TV1 news then went on to provide a soapbox for the mother of the passenger to bag the police, without putting the questions to her that if her dipshit son wouldn’t have died if he had done any of the following:

(A) Not got in an unlicenced vehicle with a disqualified driver who was wanted by the police
(B) Forced the driver to stop instead of being a party to his running from the police
(C) Worn his seat belt

Instead we get this bullshit about how the police are responsible because they chased a wanted criminal who then decided to travel at excess speed and subsequently crashed. The fault lies entirely with the car’s driver and the passenger. That should be the end of it.
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August 15, 2009 7:04pm
jcuknz

Redbaiter …. I feel quite sick and sad when I read about what is going on in the States with the ignorant fools* yelling down the Obama speakers becuase they are afraid of those bogie’s socialism, communisim. Having lived most of my life in New Zealand’s system of health care and been looked after when I needed it I think the Republican stance is utterly and completely immoral politicing.
*Like the guy who wouldn’t believe that Medicare was a government programme.

Paradigm …. yes you are right .. a sad part about these situations is that even if they decide to stop chasing the escapee likely doesn’t know the pursuit has stopped so they don’t slow down and we all are endangered. becuase of the mother and her ilk the Police are on the defensive and frequently they say ‘We stopped the chase after sixty seconds [or whatever]”.

Philu … You could also ask why we deal with India when you read the NYT story about the young indian wife having a difficult birth and the Mother-in-law refused to let her go even to the local first aid centre, let alone a hospital. The baby was too big for his to pass and she needed a cesarian operation when days after she finally got to the hospital and the dead baby was finally removed.
The ironic slant to the story was had the maternal ‘controllers’ known the baby was a boy they would have rushed the mother to the hospital.

Viking2 … if you can afford millions for the home you can afford a tax … if you can’t find the tax then you are stupid to try and keep up with the Jones.
“One and a half spoons of tea to make a cuppa! Jeez .. I regularly get three cups from one teabag and sometimes as many as five 🙂
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August 15, 2009 7:59pm
Shunda barunda

Philu just said this about me on frog blog after I asked:

“Why do you do it Phil? why do you have such a seething contempt for some one such as myself?..”

seeing as you asked..

you talk absolute mindless drivel..

you are double-faced..

..you display not one iota of intellectual rigor..

..and you seem to have been here forever..

modus operandi:..?

choose topic..

talk troll-drivel..

get shot down/answered..

move onto next tack/subject..

(repeat..endlessly..)

you are like a less intelligent owen mcshane..

(he has learnt some psuedo-science..so spouts that..)

you are a total waste of space/time..

..yet somehow seem so smug/self-congratulatory..

..without absolutely anything of substance behind those pretences..

(you did ask..eh..?..)

and..you are on ignore-function again..

phil(whoar.co.nz)

The guy really appears to hate my guts, pot calling kettle black or what!!
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August 15, 2009 8:54pm
philu

“hate’ ..?..don’t flatter yourself..

annoyance would more describe it,..

like a buzzing mosquito..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 15, 2009 9:09pm
philu

“..Philu … You could also ask why we deal with India when you read the NYT story about the young indian wife..”

um..!..slight difference being we aren’t sending soldiers to kill indians..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 15, 2009 9:11pm
Redbaiter

Interesting poll-

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Poll.aspx?ekfrm=644228
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August 15, 2009 9:48pm
philu

don’t say i never do anything for you..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/orgasmic-organics-20-healthy-ways-to-rev-up-your-sex-life/

“..Put down the Viagra.

Here are 20 delicious, healthy aphrodisiacs.

If you’ve got sex on the brain but your body’s feeling unsexy, put away the blue pill!

You don’t need Viagra, you need food. (Just not potato chips.)

Sexual health and energy is synonymous with a healthy, energized you.

An active lifestyle, balanced diet and self-confidence are the best ways to get the sexual charge you need –

but that doesn’t mean there aren’t a few foods out there that can give you that extra…boost you’re looking for..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 15, 2009 10:25pm
Patrick Starr

“but that doesn’t mean there aren’t a few foods out there that can give you that extra…boost you’re looking for..””

…..did they give you zucchinis in prison?
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August 15, 2009 11:49pm
jcuknz

>>>um..!..slight difference being we aren’t sending soldiers to kill indians..phil(whoar.co.nz)<<<

I thought we were sending troops to kill terrorists of whatever nation they originate from and centred in Afghanistan.
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August 16, 2009 8:29am
philu

no jukunz..

we are just engaging in the latest of a long line of episodes..

..of hanging off the member of whichever country is the world-power..

aside from a brief burst of self-pride/independence around the time of lange..

..we have been sucking the dicks of first britain..

..and now america..

that is why ‘we are in afghanistan’..

phil(whoar.co.nz
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August 16, 2009 9:30am
jcuknz

I am mildly suprised that the UK has gone back to fight in Afghanistan because of the bloody noses they got back was it the 1800’s.
Key’s argument about kiwis being at risk from terrorism around the world is pretty weak IMO. As of 9/11 I thought the American approach was faulty … being struck they struck back instead of trying to work out why they were struck and doing something about it.
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August 17, 2009 9:25pm

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