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June 29, 2014 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 29 June 2014

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General Debate

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Redbaiter

“But perhaps it’s always been that way….”

Ever wondered why Christian nations lead the world? Take a trip to the Middle East and report back.
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June 29, 2014 12:02pm
Judith

Longknives (4,292 comments) says:
June 29th, 2014 at 11:58 am
Where is MY adoring fan club??

We’re right here petal. Hanging off your every word. 😛
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June 29, 2014 12:03pm
Harriet

Viking #2

“…..I simply can’t condone the way women are treated by the church and its adherents and cannot possibly believe that you can do wrong all week, go and plead, with an almost certainly a screwed up individual who calls himself a priest for forgiveness, say a few Hail Mary’s, toss some coin in the plate and go right back out and continue to do the same until next week.
And don’t bother to defend this. It happens and is indefensible….”

LOL —- I’ll defend it. The answer is in your statement “…..say a few Hail Mary’s….”

The Roman Cahtolic Church is the Christian Church that venerates and holds Mary in very high regard as women have a very important role in society.
Mary along with Confession are at the fore front of Roman Catholicism. Other Christian Churches don’t hold Mary in as high regard.[that’s not to say they think anything bad of her]

It’s secular feminism that talked women down from their pedestal and to climb that of the male. Women now compete with males in the male’s domain – pitting women against their children which can end in abortion at the extreme. In between children still suffer.

Motherhood has been relegated to that of a minimum wage job. Ironicly, health and education ‘professionals’ which are more so women these days, then pick up the pieces – at a cost to tax payers.

“………I simply can’t condone the way women are treated by the church…..”

Mysogynist! 😎
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June 29, 2014 12:07pm
Viking2

Longknives (4,293 comments) says:
June 29th, 2014 at 11:58 am

I see there are a few people here quite ‘Star-Struck’ by young Martin-Luther Lucan and his flowing locks
==============

So without recourse to the facts as published you now make up more fairy tales.
No wonder poor old God gets bothered and causes Hell and Damnation on earth.
People like you are enough to drive even the Diety nuts on a good day. 😮 😡 😆
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June 29, 2014 12:11pm
SGA

Redbaiterat 12:02 pm

Ever wondered why Christian nations lead the world? Take a trip to the Middle East and report back.

And if in 20-30 years non-christian asian countries “lead the world”? Would you attribute it to their lack of Christianity? Not sure what you’re point is, sorry.
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June 29, 2014 12:11pm
kowtow

SGA

Belief, faith, whatever.

There’s a culture war on and in many places it’s actual war . I know which tribe I belong to.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2672843/Britains-population-grown-5-MILLION-12-years.html
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June 29, 2014 12:16pm
Chthoniid

@kowtow

Christianity is not the necessary bulwark against Islam. Reason and education is.

Scaremongering isn’t going to refill the pews.
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June 29, 2014 12:17pm
SGA

kowtow at 12:16 pm

There’s a culture war on and in many places it’s actual war . I know which tribe I belong to.

I think everyone here knows that 🙂
On the other hand, I’m not sure that the “we need more Christians to fight the Muslims” flavour to some of your posts is going to fill the pews. Fair enough?
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June 29, 2014 12:20pm
Harriet

Viking 2#

“…….and cannot possibly believe that you can do wrong all week, go and plead, with an almost certainly a screwed up individual who calls himself a priest for forgiveness, say a few Hail Mary’s, toss some coin in the plate and go right back out and continue to do the same until next week…..”

Last time I looked Catholics only had to go to Confession once a year, but anyway:

Confessing of one’s sins is at the fore front of the Catholic Church as Redeemtion gives one Salvation. Man has to keep himself in check by having a perfect transient being above himself. As men are fallen and not perfect. That is the Truth.
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June 29, 2014 12:21pm
stephieboy

SGA, excellent point and the said” Christian” nations are that only in a purely nominal sense.If that.The differences in the ME is that Western nations like the Asian ones have achieved the vital step of separation of powers i.e the separation of church/ religion and state , thus neutralizing the power of the Church.
If this were not the case we would be where the Islamic Theocracies and oligarchies in the ME are right now .!
Redbaiter obviously wants to turn the clock back to Mediaevalism.!
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June 29, 2014 12:22pm
mike tan

Mr. Baiter,

I am a social liberal and fiscal centrist (am a Keynesian but support minimal interference). I would like National to be more socially liberal (e.g. euthanasia reform and drug law reform) but am happy to give them two ticks based on what else is available.

You appear to be a hard liner who would gift the country to the left were you in charge of policy making.
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June 29, 2014 12:26pm
Harriet

“……Christianity is not the necessary bulwark against Islam. Reason and education is….”

LOL….. Christianity has been the one constant line of defense against Islam over the last 2000yrs. At times it has been the only line of defense. The Knights Templar and the Crusades are testament to that.

To then deny Christianity as a significant line of defense against Islam is not reasonable nor educated.

Can a Muslim lead a good life by having a relationship with God? – of course he can.

Is the Koran a reliable source to have that relationship? – of course not. The Koran has been the one constant in the ME.
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June 29, 2014 12:28pm
publicwatchdog

Wonder which private companies are going to get PM John Keys roading contracts? How to turn public assets into private profits? What more do you expect from the ‘Man from Merrill Lynch’? Penny Bright
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June 29, 2014 12:29pm
Viking2

Harriet (4,386 comments) says:
June 29th, 2014 at 12:21 pm

Viking 2#

Confessing of one’s sins is at the fore front of the Catholic Church as Redeemtion gives one Salvation. Man has to keep himself in check by having a perfect transient being above himself. As men are fallen and not perfect. That is the Truth.
————————————————–
Only in your tiny mind.
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June 29, 2014 12:31pm
Gulag1917

“……Christianity is not the necessary bulwark against Islam. Reason and education is….”
Are you prepared to die for your reason and education?
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June 29, 2014 12:35pm
Harriet

Viking 2#

“…..Only in your tiny mind….”

Being perfect is not the matter of a tiny mind.
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June 29, 2014 12:36pm
stephieboy

Harriet, separation of church and state and the advance of the secular state is the surest way ultimately to beat Militant Islam.This includes nurturing and encouraging Democratic institutions and beliefs of the kind that exist in Israel.Tall order.?
Possibly, but worth the effort.
But to advance Fundamentalist Christian dogma and belief as an answer would make things imaginably worse and impossible..
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June 29, 2014 12:36pm
kowtow

Asian nations that are successful,have nothing to do with ‘Church and State”

They are successful because they have adopted western capitalism, a key component of which is the Protestant work ethic.
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June 29, 2014 12:39pm
mike tan

Isn’t Penny the person that refuses to pay her bills? I think i remember bruv saying something about this
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June 29, 2014 12:39pm
MH

Who is we ? – we leave the defence up to the yanks,and then wring our hands. That is why we want to get on the Security Council ? Chamberlains.
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June 29, 2014 12:41pm
Gulag1917

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y
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June 29, 2014 12:43pm
kowtow

SGA

“On the other hand, I’m not sure that the “we need more Christians to fight the Muslims” flavour to some of your posts is going to fill the pews. Fair enough?”

I don’t give a shit how many people go to Church.What I do give a shit about is the constant anti Christian bigots banging on all the time.
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June 29, 2014 12:44pm
SGA

kowtow at 12:39 pm

Asian nations that are successful,have nothing to do with ‘Church and State”
They are successful because they have adopted western capitalism, a key component of which is the Protestant work ethic.

So no cultures/civilisations prior to the reformation had a good work ethic? The Chinese spent the last three thousand years smoking opium and eating wild rice, I assume.
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June 29, 2014 12:45pm
Harriet

“……Harriet, separation of church and state and the advance of the secular state is the surest way ultimately to beat Militant Islam….” “…..the advance of the secular state….”

The Bible itself calls for the seperation of Church and State. The US Constitution is testament to that. It is Christian man who places God above himself. If man rejects God then the Constitution or the State then fails. The USSR, Nazi Germany and Nth Korea are testament to that.

“…..Thus includes nurturing and encouraging Democratic institutions and beliefs of the kind that exist in Israel.Tall order.?…”

The West had democratic institutions long before modern Israel was founded. I don’t see your point.

It is all about individual man placing God above himself. No one can enforce that upon people – as it is impossable.
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June 29, 2014 12:46pm
stephieboy

Gulag, reason and education is something you don’t really die for unless it’s as e.g against a warring Nazism.But the long term solution in beating Islam in the Med is a multi pronged approach that includes curbing power of the Mosque as with the West and the Church.That involves a process of education and raisingb the living standards of the people by sharing e.g that oil wealth around so on.
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June 29, 2014 12:46pm
kowtow

SGA

You are being deliberately obtuse.

Where did I say people in other cultures didn’t/don’t work hard.

I referred specifically to the Protestant work ethic as one component (among others)of capitalism. There’s more to that ethic than simply working hard !
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June 29, 2014 12:48pm
Chthoniid

@Harriet

Actually, the comment was in the context of current times. Medieval Xtianity had little education nor reason to offer.

The tendency for Xtians and Muslims to kill each other in great numbers over their imaginary friend isn’t a good advertisement of your faith. Nor does your little scenario gel with the crippling of the Abbasid Caliphate by the 13th C Mongol invasions, and the permanent loss of the Khurasan core to the surviving Sunni states.

Xtian-Muslim aggression has done much to leave the world in its current state. Raising this bogeyman may have worked in the Middle Ages. It’s unconvincing in this era.
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June 29, 2014 12:50pm
stephieboy

Harriet, I was referring to Israel as role model for ME Islam including the separation of church and state .Our Western democracy only became such through neutralizing the power of your Church and your associated belief systems.
Fact.!
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June 29, 2014 12:50pm
SGA

kowtow at 12:48 pm

SGA – You are being deliberately obtuse.

A little 🙂
I see things a little different from you, is all. Civilisations, each at its time the greatest yet produced, have risen and fallen – each with the help and blessing of their gods. I see modern western civilisation from that perspective.
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June 29, 2014 12:54pm
Manolo

Chilean passion: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/worldcup2014/article-2673471/Chile-journalist-Jhendelyn-Nunez-shows-bra-Alexis-Sanchez-goal-against-Brazil.html
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June 29, 2014 12:54pm
mike tan

Harriet,

Which part of the bible calls for separation of church and state?
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June 29, 2014 12:55pm
kowtow

Bogeyman?

Unconvincing?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10515545/We-will-all-lose-if-Christians-flee-the-Middle-East.html
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June 29, 2014 1:01pm
Paulus

I hope that serious consideration for the judicial appointment of the High Court Judge to the DotCrim case is not Mr David Collins, failed one time Solicitors General.
At least the DotCrim has not got long hair, or is that a bad thing.
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June 29, 2014 1:10pm
Harriet

“….The tendency for Xtians and Muslims to kill each other in great numbers over their imaginary friend isn’t a good advertisement of your faith. …..”

It’s a good advertisment for defending one’s faith for over 2000 yrs – and ending slavery in the 20th century by the likes of Christian Englishman William Wilberforce. Oxford opened around 1250 and has a motto which reads in part “….to follow Christ…..”

Ancient Greece at the time of Plato had no problems with slavery, and at times there were more slaves than Greeks in some parts.

Much like Islam still treats women and it’s adherants today. Muslims have only been emigrating to the west in the last 30yrs – right when it’s on it’s knees. Muslim emigration to the west was unheard of before now.

Islam will not change – the west will – for the worst. We are seeing that throughout Europe now – the Europe that taught it’s next generations after WW2 to become more secular!
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June 29, 2014 1:10pm
SGA

Manolo at 12:54 pm

Chilean passion: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/worldcup2014/article-2673471/Chile-journalist-Jhendelyn-Nunez-shows-bra-Alexis-Sanchez-goal-against-Brazil.html

That “journalist” is welcome to interview me anytime. (A google of Jhendelyn Nunez and clicking Images provides more of her journalism 🙂 )
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June 29, 2014 1:16pm
Chthoniid

@Kowtow

Loved the way you played the martyr card after abusing me as a traitor. Stay classy.

The Middle-East is a good illustration of why the Abrahamic religions are toxic. I have never put forward any argument that Islam is a quaint and harmless religion. What I have objected to is the hysterical scaremongering being advanced.

My original point was just an observation that Xtianity is in decline. You introduced Islam. That’s not a sufficient or necessary reason for me to support Christianity.
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June 29, 2014 1:16pm
Chthoniid

@Harriet

The pride with which you advance your religion’s violent past does not make a good advertisment for it

Many good people of varying beliefs worked to end slavery, not just Wilberforce. The brutal fact however, is that for 90% of your religion’s history, enslaving people was an acceptable thing to do. Some were not persuaded otherwise until the Federal army guns reached Richmond.
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June 29, 2014 1:21pm
Gulag1917

“But the long term solution in beating Islam in the Med is a multi pronged approach that includes curbing power of the Mosque as with the West and the Church.That involves a process of education and raisingb the living standards of the people by sharing e.g that oil wealth around so on.”

This strategy will not work. Who has got the initiative in the West? Who is on the back foot.
Moslems will perceive NZ as weak, Australia is fearful of Moslem Indonesia and so should NZ be. There may be war between Australia and Indonesia and an inevitable consequence is tens of thousands of “refugees” flooding into NZ causing a problem for generations. I doubt that the secular humanists have got the will let alone the energy to resist Islam. Christianity is an easier target although it is an imaginary threat. No Christian of any intelligence would ever consider making people believe.
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June 29, 2014 1:23pm
gump

@Redbaiter

“The management of any institution has the right to change any rule whenever it sees fit, and the employees engaged to oversee those rules have the responsibility to see they are abided by.”

—————————

Any institution has the right to change any rule?

Really?

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that you support “making shit up as we go along” style management.
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June 29, 2014 1:31pm
maycra

@Harriet. Keeping religion out of future governments is a good idea don’t you think?
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June 29, 2014 1:32pm
Gulag1917

Islam has got a few friends/unintended allies on this blog.
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June 29, 2014 1:32pm
Manolo

UT above all.

KB’s jihadist is a practitioner of the religion of peace and devout follower of its paedophile prophet, who quotes the Q’uran to all and sundry.
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June 29, 2014 1:34pm
nasska

Gulag1917

….” No Christian of any intelligence would ever consider making people believe.”…..

Only because they have lost the power to enforce compliance otherwise we would face an Inquisition tomorrow morning.

Meanwhile, instead of forcing us to believe in their brand of Skyfairy, they content themselves with ensuring that we will live & act according to their ideals. eg abortion, euthanasia, marriage qualification.
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June 29, 2014 1:39pm
Gulag1917

Even if Christianity e.g. in NZ had the power to make people believe they would face fierce resistance within Christianity and power like that would be relinquished. What atheists in NZ have been persecuted by a mainline church?
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June 29, 2014 1:47pm
Reid

Only because they have lost the power to enforce compliance otherwise we would face an Inquisition tomorrow morning.

nasska has it ever occurred to you and others who hold a similar hallucination about what we Christians think, that if your hallucination were in fact the case, then we Christians would in fact be bound by the dictates of what you fantasise is our religion, to agitate non-stop 24/7/365 for such a state of affairs to come to pass?

And the fact that we Christians don’t do this, gives the clue you need to recognise and accept that your stated belief which is not the first time you’ve promulgated it, is in fact, absolutely fucking nuts?
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June 29, 2014 1:49pm
Viking2

Most of us. Think Bolger, English.et al.
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June 29, 2014 1:50pm
Komata

PENELOPE!!

How good of you to visit.

Since you have visited and, as we know DO return here frequently, (but have evidently missed them), here (once again) are the two questions I asked you earlier, repeated just to make sure you see them…

(They are repeated in a caring way, of course).

And why two questions? Because, like Ceasar’s wife, an M.P. (even a ‘Possible’ M.P.) MUST be ‘transparent in all things’ and above reproach’)

1. Have you paid your outstanding rates to the Auckland City Council (as you are legally required to do)?

2. Have you started your investigation into the New Zealand labour [party’s corruption; the corruption that is involving Mr. Liu and Mr. Cunnliffe (as a Public-spirited and self-appointed ANTI-CORRUPTION CAMPAIGNER’ must do to have any credibility anywhere)?

Answering in the affirmative to these two questions will give you at least a smidgen of credibility, and it might even gain you a vote (or two).

Answering in the negative, or even not answering at all, will, of course allow everyone to draw their own conclusions about your suitability as a ‘Parliamentary Representative’…

BTW: You do realise of course that you will be expected to actually RESIDE in Mr. Key’s electorate at the time you are campaigning against him – and even before that event, so that the eligible voters within that electorate actually know who you are?

(As I said, repeated again, and in a caring way; of course).

BTW: Which sounds better in your opinion:

‘The man from Merrill Lynch’

or:

The ‘CORRUPT ANTI-CORRUPTION CAMPAIGNER’?

Just wondering….
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June 29, 2014 1:56pm
nasska

….”What atheists in NZ have been persecuted by a mainline church?”….

Directly, none that I’m aware of but that is not how religious power works in modern society. Rather they rely on the fear of ostracism to achieve the same ends though it would be fair to state that even this is on the wane.

Before you get too wrapped up in the concept of a cuddly, benign Jesus who loves small children remember that only a few centuries ago the Christian church was complicit with witch burners & the murderous activities of the Inquisition.

It is only the lack of a power base that prevents your nuttier adherents from committing atrocities similar to those practised by Islamists today.
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June 29, 2014 2:05pm
nasska

….”And the fact that we Christians don’t do this, gives the clue you need to recognise and accept that your stated belief which is not the first time you’ve promulgated it, is in fact, absolutely fucking nuts?”….

You simply don’t have the numbers to force anything…..never have your lot wavered in your desire to have us march in lockstep to the dictates of your beliefs.
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June 29, 2014 2:08pm
Gulag1917

So for over 160 years of Christianity in NZ atheists were left alone to disbelieve Any “Christian” radicals in NZ will be well hobbled before they can even plan anything.
nasska your fear is without grounds.
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June 29, 2014 2:12pm
Redbaiter

“Only because they have lost the power to enforce compliance otherwise we would face an Inquisition tomorrow morning.”

“It is only the lack of a power base that prevents your nuttier adherents from committing atrocities similar to those practised by Islamists today.”

“never have your lot wavered in your desire to have us march in lockstep to the dictates of your beliefs.”

“The brutal fact however, is that for 90% of your religion’s history, enslaving people was an acceptable thing to do.”

The OCD crowd are here.

Funny how some of us just never seem to notice this massive organised attempt at compulsion that overshadows your whole life.

Beats me why you Christians spend time dealing with these insane losers. Why not just leave them to their sickness. Its up to their families to guide them to sanity, not anyone else.
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June 29, 2014 2:32pm
Gulag1917

“never have your lot wavered in your desire to have us march in lockstep to the dictates of your beliefs.”
Likewise, the secular humanist lot are trying to do that with us.
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June 29, 2014 2:32pm
Redbaiter

“You appear to be a hard liner who would gift the country to the left were you in charge of policy making.”

This spurious weak minded argument has been refuted with reason on countless occasions.

You seem to be a pull string doll with a very few phrases to your repertoire.

And you’re so called “social liberalism”, which is really just a weak and transparent excuse for libertine like behaviour, is a large part of the reason we have such a huge intrusive state today and out of control govt spending.

You need to decide if you’re for small govt or big govt that spends taxpayer’s money like water. To me it seems as if you enthusiastically support the latter.
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June 29, 2014 2:39pm
wreck1080

I thought “labour” were supposed to support working people.

Why on earth did they oppose the logging of fallen trees? This creates employment for the very people that traditionally would have supported labour. And, in an area that has been losing jobs .

John Key had a great line….

“We’re a Government that’s practical enough to know when a storm blows trees over, you can mill them and create jobs.”

“Compare that with the Labour Party who’d leave all that dead wood lying around doing nothing. Mind you we shouldn’t be surprised because that’s what they do in their own caucus.”
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June 29, 2014 2:42pm
Gulag1917

Canterbury forests eg Eyrewell are planted to take into consideration a large wind every thirty years which is when Pinus Radiata are fully matured. There are wind cycles as there are earthquake cycles.
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June 29, 2014 2:50pm
goldnkiwi

Viking2 (11,071 comments) says:

June 29th, 2014 at 12:11 pm

Flowing locks? Samson?
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June 29, 2014 2:53pm
ross411

lilman (820 comments) says:
June 29th, 2014 at 8:47 am
Was out for tea last night and our hosts nephew goes to Lord Lucans school,his Aunt was saying that a lot of the boys from his year group are far from happy with the rights fighter and have been warned by their year dean that nothing was to be directed at Lucan.

I was thinking about Lucan and of course shaking my head that he just won’t follow the rules. But then I wondered why it mattered.

There are umpteen laws in our society that are arbitrary political currency, which dictate how we may live, because others have decided we have to live how they want. We cannot grow hemp, even though growing it would cross-pollinate and ruin marijuana plantings. We have to pay for other people to raise their families through extra benefits like WFF and paid parental leave. We have to subsidise the life style of others who choose to burden us with their cost of living, through benefits and nonsense like living wages.

I want the youth of today to stand up to rules that do not matter, taking them to the courts if necessary. I hope they choose wisely, and win. Then when they are older, they will have been taught they do not have to be burdened with all the political crap that the major parties accumulate and lay on us whimsically.

I’ve done a 180 on this topic. Fight the power Lucan, you go gurl!
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June 29, 2014 3:00pm
Redbaiter

“We cannot grow hemp,”

You’re on to it.

That’s exactly the reason thousands died in the American War of Independence.

Why millions dies fighting Nazism.

Why defenders of freedom throughout history have fought and died.

Being stopped from growing hemp was behind it all, and its so good to know that today that reason doesn’t have to be hidden from view any more.

We can all discard spurious and obviously false justifications like establishing a Constitutional Republic free of the burdens of the European class system, or the defeat of a murderous totalitarian regime bent on world domination and the extermination of the Jews. Ha, they thought they could fool us didn’t they?

Now thanks to intellectuals like Ross411, it can finally be revealed that it was really about the right to grow hemp. Wonderful. Keep bringing this kind of news to the forum Ross. It so good to see at long last history re-written to represent reality and truth.
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June 29, 2014 3:07pm
big bruv

“Beats me why you Christians spend time dealing with these insane losers”

So you’re back to being an Agnostic now Bedwetter?
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June 29, 2014 3:15pm
big bruv

“What atheists in NZ have been persecuted by a mainline church?”

Those atheists who wanted a divorce prior to 1963.
Those atheists who want to have an abortion without going through the façade of claiming a mental illness.
Those atheists who wanted to have a beer or a wine after 6pm prior to 1967.
Those atheists who wanted to marry the person they loved prior to 2013.
Those atheists who wanted to marry a person of Catholic faith.
Those atheists who want to end their own suffering due to a terminal illness.
Those atheists who watch or listen to the house every sitting day.

Atheists continue to be persecuted by stone age superstition to this very day.
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June 29, 2014 3:28pm
UglyTruth

We have to subsidise the life style of others who choose to burden us with their cost of living, through benefits and nonsense like living wages.

Why? Because it is more convenient to conform and pay tax rather than to work outside the system? Because of the threat of being railroaded by an agent of the state in the name of universal obedience? For what reason would you sell your soul to the devil in a pinstripe suit?
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June 29, 2014 3:28pm
Reid

Something to put on the record about the Thai coup.

Most of the useful idiots of course think the army was doing the wrong thing by ousting this guy. The thing the idiots don’t understand, because they’re idiots, is that this guy was a ruthless dictator. The only reason he wins the elections is because the poor people all vote for him for the simple reason that he promises them the earth. But he’s as corrupt as they come and this is why the military has done what it did. But of course the idiots won’t get that. Because they’re idiots. But this gives a brief overview of what he used to do.

http://altthainews.blogspot.com.au/2014/06/eu-punishes-thailand-for-ousting-mass.html
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June 29, 2014 3:37pm
Viking2

Redbaiter (7,315 comments) says:
June 29th, 2014 at 2:32 pm

Beats me why you Christians spend time dealing with these insane losers. Why not just leave them to their sickness. Its up to their families to guide them to sanity, not anyone else.

where did your lot go wrong then?
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June 29, 2014 4:29pm
ross411

Redbaiter (7,315 comments) says:
June 29th, 2014 at 3:07 pm
“We cannot grow hemp,”

You’re on to it.

That’s exactly the reason thousands died in the American War of Independence.

You pick a one line example out of my post and then construct an essay about how I am wrong because that one line by itself is written about negatively in your essay. Can’t you see why your essay is flawed?
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June 29, 2014 4:47pm
ross411

UglyTruth (3,755 comments) says:
June 29th, 2014 at 3:28 pm
Why? Because it is more convenient to conform and pay tax rather than to work outside the system? Because of the threat of being railroaded by an agent of the state in the name of universal obedience? For what reason would you sell your soul to the devil in a pinstripe suit?

Paying tax is worth it. We all live in this country together. In an ideal world I would pay my share of tax, which would get spent in a worthy accountable fashion. Opting out of paying tax, is to opt out of being a New Zealander. There are things I am happy to subsidise that benefit others. Just not entitlement and limitations because some other part of the population does not like the idea of something which does not harm really them.
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June 29, 2014 4:51pm
IC5000

“Reid (15,843 comments) says:
June 29th, 2014 at 3:37 pm
Something to put on the record about the Thai coup.

Most of the useful idiots of course think the army was doing the wrong thing by ousting this guy. The thing the idiots don’t understand, because they’re idiots, is that this guy was a ruthless dictator.”

A dictator who has won every election since 2001

“The only reason he wins the elections is because the poor people all vote for him for the simple reason that he promises them the earth.”

Like free medical care and creating economic growth? – Between 2000 and 2004, income in the poorest part of the country, the Northeast, rose 40 per cent while nation-wide poverty fell from 21.3 per cent to 11.3 per cent. Sounds like he did a lot more than promise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premiership_of_Thaksin_Shinawatra

“But he’s as corrupt as they come and this is why the military has done what it did. But of course the idiots won’t get that.”

You mean this kind of corruption? http://phuketwan.com/tourism/thai-military-profiting-trade-boatpeople-says-special-report-18454/

“Because they’re idiots. But this gives a brief overview of what he used to do.”

Calling you an apologist for the Thai military dictatorship would be giving you credit for having a modicum of intelligence and clearly it is credit you don’t deserve.
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June 29, 2014 5:32pm
Scott

Big bruv, don’t forget New Zealand was founded by people who were Christian and the morals and laws of our nation were based on Christian principles until fairly recently. So we would expect Christian laws such as respect for life and marriage therefore Christians are against abortion which is a perfectly reasonable position to anyone that looks at an ultrasound of a baby in utero. And let’s be honest no one even thought of gay marriage until recently so you can’t blame Christians for that.

In reply to nasska you have stumbled on the truth. Now that we have been to church we are busily plotting how to oppress the atheists especially those in Eketahuna. Even now Christian operatives are heading to your location to conduct witchburnings and restart inquisition proceedings. Elderly Anglicans armed with lethally sharpened knitting needles will begin fiendish sessions of torture upon your person shortly. Be afraid nasska, the knitters are coming!
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June 29, 2014 5:33pm
Viking2

don’t worry naaska, the southern Vikings will come to your aid and rid your land of the scourge. We are just along the road.
Recently practiced at rendering witches harmless and we can get johnboy to bring the sheep for th anglican sheep shaggers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFiIDl_mt2c
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June 29, 2014 5:38pm
nasska

….”. Be afraid nasska, the knitters are coming!”….

I’ve always downplayed the Anglican threat…..indeed I thought it would be the left footers who would be the vanguard of the heretic hunters.

Thanks for the warning. 🙂
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June 29, 2014 5:41pm
nasska

Good thinking V2…..a mob of good looking sheep & they’ll be too exhausted to burn witches. 🙂

Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ytpqfov09dor19/Sheep%2014.jpg
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June 29, 2014 5:47pm
Viking2

naaska, here for some training.

https://www.facebook.com/TheVikingsHaul?fref=ts

your castle of course.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=675836409120467&set=a.382608548443256.76185.233283003375812&type=1&theater
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June 29, 2014 5:47pm
wat dabney

“Christianity has been the one constant line of defense against Islam over the last 2000yrs. At times it has been the only line of defense. The Knights Templar and the Crusades are testament to that.”

What an utterly stupid thing to say.

The Crusades were not a defence against anything, they were an invasion of Arab lands; an invasion notable for massacres of entire surrendered cities: men, women and children by the thousands. An invasion so barbaric that it still resonates with Muslims today. And the Templars and the Hospitallers – Christian monks, remember – were up to their necks in these atrocities. It was Saladin, by contrast, who was known for his mercy and magnanimity.

And let’s not forget that Christians were the ‘one constant line of defense’ against heresy: Christians burning other Christians for being the wrong sort of Christian. Because that’s the reality of any theocracy.
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June 29, 2014 5:51pm
nasska

Castles are a bit flash for us poor sheep farmers around Eke V2…..we’ll have to fall back & rely on our cuzzies up at Dannevirke. 🙂
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June 29, 2014 5:56pm
kowtow

Arab lands?

wat needs to do some reading.

Also a bit of a concern the number of the anti Christain bigots who are so bigoted they’ve joined the Muslim camp.
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June 29, 2014 5:57pm
mandk

big bruv: “Atheists continue to be persecuted by stone age superstition to this very day”

Nonsense. Do you not recognise the difference between opposition and persecution?
Labelling something as persecution when it is nothing of the sort is a thought-nazi tactic.
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June 29, 2014 6:01pm
cricko

It’s staggering, the number of do gooder lefties that are unable to understand that radical islam will
kill them when they can.

These drongs think that holding out the hand of friendship to them will change their minds.

‘Kin idiots.

Kinda like Neville Chamberlain or Barry Obama.

2nd thoughts. Barry Obama knows exactly what he is doing.
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June 29, 2014 6:08pm
big bruv

So another rouge poll shows Labour under 30%.

I wonder how many winter BBQ’s will be held this week?
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June 29, 2014 6:11pm
RF

Labour 29 in the latest TV 1 poll tonight….How sad.. How do you like them apples Cunliffe
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June 29, 2014 6:12pm
nasska

….”These drongs think that holding out the hand of friendship to them will change their minds”…..

You’re not wrong. We’ve got enough religious nutters in this country now without extending an invitation to another variety. 🙂
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June 29, 2014 6:14pm
Ross12

Well it looks like Canada has pulled the pin on the USA Keystone pipeline and will sell all its oil to Asia.

That will help the USA economy !! /sarc
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June 29, 2014 6:19pm
Manolo

Have Griff and stephieboy been invited?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/29/epa-spends-16-million-on-hotel-for-environmental-justice-conference/

Nothing to with the war between factions of barbaric Islam. It is AGW’s fault!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11284185

A series of U.N. reports released earlier this year found that global warming is already destabilizing nation states around the world, and Syria has been no exception.
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June 29, 2014 6:19pm
cricko

Sad thing is nasska,
that these fuckwits believe that New Zealand will be different than any other western country because
we embrace and celebrate our muslim immigrants more than any others.

These fuckwits just are not able to read the writing on the wall.

Even as they get crucified by their muslim ‘friends ‘, these poor drongs still will not get it.
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June 29, 2014 6:25pm
ShawnLH

“THE IRRATIONALITY OF ATHEISM

Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational. Atheists tend to put a lot of stock in the emperical method and in logic. One cannot disprove God exists using the emperical method. You might reply: But I can’t disprove a giant purple frog on Mars controls the universe, either. Granted, one can never disprove any given thing exists. The atheistic position denying God’s existence, if based on the emperical method, is absurd. Why do I say that? In order to prove the assertion No God exists experimentally, one would need to comprehensively know all of reality. Comprehensive knowledge of reality is called omniscience. One would need to be omniscient in order to prove there is no God, but if one were omniscient one would, by definition, already be God! So, based on emperical methodology, the only one capable of disproving the existence of God would be God himself! But some would say you can indeed assert something does not exist if its existence is logically self contradictory, such as a square triangle. By definition it cannot exist. It is illogical for something to be a square and to also be a triangle. Again, granted, but this line of reasoning assumes logic and real meaning exist and are our basis for knowledge –something an atheist has no right to assert! The existence of God is not only logically possible, it is philosophically essential. (We’ll get to that more later below.) One cannot prove logic exists unless one first presupposes a God in whom reason and meaning are transcendentally rooted, otherwise these categories are mere philosphical prejuduces. Atheism is inherently self-contradictory.”

http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm

Is Atheism Irrational? Apparently, yes.

“I don’t think arguments are needed for rational belief in God. In this regard belief in God is like belief in other minds, or belief in the past. Belief in God is grounded in experience, or in the sensus divinitatis, John Calvin’s term for an inborn inclination to form beliefs about God in a wide variety of circumstances.

Nevertheless, I think there are a large number — maybe a couple of dozen — of pretty good theistic arguments. None is conclusive, but each, or at any rate the whole bunch taken together, is about as strong as philosophical arguments ordinarily get.”

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/is-atheism-irrational/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

Christian Comedian, Brad Stine uses humor (and logic) to show how irrational Atheists really are.

http://godsnotdeadthemovie.com/blog/this-guy-proves-atheists-are-irrational/

Atheists want any mention of God removed from the public sphere because it offends them. Who is more irrational, the guy who believes in a God he cannot see, or the guy who is offended by a God he doesn’t believe in! 🙂
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June 29, 2014 6:27pm
nasska

Forget the God waffle Shawn…..show us the proof.

A photo will do for now. 🙂
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June 29, 2014 6:31pm
big bruv

“Atheists want any mention of God removed from the public sphere because it offends them.”

No we don’t. We want it removed because it is a blatant lie.
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June 29, 2014 6:32pm
ShawnLH

“Forget the God waffle Shawn…..show us the proof.”

Translation: “These arguments scare me! So I will ask an irrational question to deflect them!” 🙂

God is infinite. Logically, you cannot take a photo of the infinite.

But thanks for proving my point! 🙂

The Irrational Atheist: Dissecting the Unholy Trinity of Dawkins, Harris, And Hitchens. By Vox Day.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Irrational-Atheist-Dissecting-Hitchens/dp/1933771364
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June 29, 2014 6:34pm
SGA

ShawnLH at 6:27 pm

Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational.

“tends to” – Shawn, this covers a strawman. Atheism has no requirements about anything except failing to believe in gods and godesses. No more, no less.
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June 29, 2014 6:35pm
MH

Why hasn’t Lady Hairspray turned the Lucan incident into a cause celebre for the youngstirers and the Interknit Party ? To get youth out to vote, isn’t that what she stands for, or does she just want to become a Lisp MP ? Has Hone been cutting her coat tails to suit his Dotcomb ? Just spitting hairs.
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June 29, 2014 6:38pm
nasska

No photo…..no credence. Pick up your pants before you leave. 🙂
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June 29, 2014 6:38pm
dad4justice

big bigot and narsekisser just for you I was recently reading an article titled “Bad News for Atheists: Scientists Say Universe Shouldn’t Exist if Big Bang Is True”
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June 29, 2014 6:39pm
cha

Seems the old joke about talentless musicians declaring themselves a christian band and they’ll have a ready-made audience applies to painfully unfunny comedians too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyKAr-gxxFE#t=53
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June 29, 2014 6:43pm
cricko

MH
a word to the wise.

Forget about the haircutting incident.

Don’t demean yourself dragging it on and on and fricken on.
It’s just not worth it.

Just forgedaboutit. (you’ll feel much better, trust me.)
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June 29, 2014 6:46pm
nasska

I’ll make it easy for you Shawn….just a picture….no big difficult words. 🙂

Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/eki2k9pom97fz9k/Believe.jpg
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June 29, 2014 6:48pm
big bruv

Shawn

You strike me a person who has never taken the time to research the argument of those who appose you. It seems that your preferred defence against science and reason is to stick your fingers in your ears and yell.

Why are you so scared of those who do not believe in your god?
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June 29, 2014 6:50pm
dad4justice

Where did I read ?

“China on course to become ‘world’s most Christian nation’ within 15 years .
The number of Christians in Communist China is growing so steadily that it by 2030 it could have more churchgoers than America”

Oh that’s right the Telegraph. Who would have ever thought that eh Christian haters. Quick bb get your thumb down stupid.
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June 29, 2014 6:53pm
MH

It may be nit picking…I’m just not wise…I’m more Why ?
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June 29, 2014 6:55pm
cricko

MH
if that comment is directed to me.

Because there are so many more things to comment on under the sun.

This non subject has been done to death. (see above, ad nauseum) FFS

Get it now ?
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June 29, 2014 7:06pm
Pete George

Atheists want any mention of God removed from the public sphere because it offends them.

What ‘atheists’ is this referring to? I call bullshit.

That’s like referring to “Christians” as if they all shared the same beliefs and want exactly the same things. Also nonsensical.
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June 29, 2014 7:12pm
ShawnLH

“What ‘atheists’ is this referring to? I call bullshit.”

You for a start. You have on several occasions insisted that Christians should leave their religious views behind when voting, and recently you said Christians should keep their beliefs to themselves. I call bullshit back! 🙂
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June 29, 2014 7:14pm
Scott

Wat dabney re the crusades, I think you quote accurately the official line, horrible Christians invading peace loving Muslims. But it just wasn’t true. Muslims then are the same as today, Islam is a religion of war. The crusades were the response to centuries of Muslim war and conquest that enabled them to conquer north Africa and much of Europe including Spain. Saladin was not enlightened, he gloried in the massacre of Christians.
By the time of the first crusade Christianity had been fighting a defensive war with Islam for over 450 years!
And how come noone asks the Muslims to apologise for all their wars of conquest for hundreds of years?
Unfortunately many have drunk the leftist Kool aid, the West and Christianity bad, the East and Islam good.
It’s all nonsense Wat, check historian Rodney Stark for further reading on the real story of the crusades.
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June 29, 2014 7:16pm

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