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June 26, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 26 June 2012

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Scott Chris

on what basis do you presume that he is not telling the truth?

Amongst other things, the overly contrived circumstances in his description of the killings:

On the night of Aug. 28, 1993, Gilham was in a boathouse on his parents’ property when he heard his mother calling him on the intercom between the main house and his room. He claimed that when he arrived at the house, he found his brother standing over his mother. She and his father had been stabbed numerous times. Gilham told police he grabbed the knife from his brother in a fit of rage and stabbed him multiple times. During the alleged scuffle, his brother had dropped a match he was holding, and it ignited an accelerant that he had poured on his mother’s body, Gilham told police.

After killing his brother, Gilham walked to a neighbor’s house and told them that his brother had killed his parents and set the house on fire. He also told them he had murdered his brother. The neighbor immediately called police and had Gilham talk with them. At that point, flames could be seen coming from the upper floor of the home.

Another neighbor told police that she had heard shouting at about 3:57 a.m. Gilham made it to his neighbor’s house at 4:30 a.m. When he arrived at his neighbor’s house, he had wet hair and was wearing only his boxer shorts. He had little blood on his body. The neighbor stated that he smelled kerosene on Gilham when he arrived. Additionally, the knife used in the killings had no blood on it. These details led investigators to believe that he had taken the time to destroy any evidence of his crime and to allow the fire to get started, in hopes that it would destroy the bodies.

Although his parents’ bodies were burned, investigators were able to determine that Helen had suffered 17 stab wounds to the chest. Likewise, Steven had been stabbed 29 times, and Christopher had suffered more than a dozen stab wounds.

Drops of Helen’s blood were found on Gilham’s shoes, at an angle that suggested she was standing when she was stabbed. This countered his claim that she was already dead on the floor when he arrived.

http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal_report/2010/11/jeffrey-gilham-case-shows-theres-no-such-thing-as-the-perfect-murder.html
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June 26, 2012 6:13pm
nasska

Anyone else notice the piece of wank on Page 3 of the DomPost this morning? Entitled “Mayor: local-body bill undermines people power” it details how Wellington Mayor Celia Wade-Brown thinks the long overdue bill reining in local body expenditure is “ill considered & undemocratic”.

Apparently Red/Green Celia thinks that the most important thing for Local Bodies is to “enhance public good”.

Message to Celia & all the other Local Government parasites…..stick to footpaths, sewage, water & rubbish. That’s all most of the rate paying class want or need.
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June 26, 2012 6:16pm
nasska

Pauleastbay

It’s a cracker site. Like you I can’t quite be sure whether it is tongue in cheek or serious.

If it’s satire it’s the best yet out of the USA who generally don’t do irony well.
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June 26, 2012 6:19pm
Pauleastbay

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/25/aaron-sorkin-thenewsroom-reality-principle

A writer who is honest about the state of the worlds media
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June 26, 2012 6:24pm
Manolo

Another crock of shit sold by Double Dipton English: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10815604
A sell out in daylight.
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June 26, 2012 6:35pm
kowtow

When women go to sportsmens hotel rooms do they think they’re off to study the Gideon bible?
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June 26, 2012 6:58pm
nasska

Kowtow

Possibly the bit that exhorts the believers to be fruitful, go forth & multiply.

Or something like that. 🙂
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June 26, 2012 7:04pm
Steve (North Shore)

When women go to sportsmens hotel rooms do they think they’re off to study the Gideon bible?

Nope, they just need some internal spinal support 🙂
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June 26, 2012 7:04pm
Johnboy

Women shouldn’t go to All Blacks hotel rooms for a good shagging as they may injure the poor little petals and Steve (Hansen) not (North Shore) will get really pissed off! 🙂
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June 26, 2012 7:09pm
Steve (North Shore)

No drug fucked train wreck – that is a good thing.
He must have got his marching orders, but can’t tell. DPF has not updated the demerits
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June 26, 2012 7:10pm
Johnboy

What about poor old Cows?

Took a big hit for the team the other night!!!
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June 26, 2012 7:12pm
F E Smith

Scott Chris,

ah, I see: if the story is too good, then it must be false?

You know, one of the things that being a criminal lawyer taught me is that the truth is often stranger than fiction. Something else I learnt is not to scoff when something seems implausible, as it can often turn out to be true.

Actually, I get the feeling that the post you liked to, which was a promo for a TV show, simply parroted the prosecution summary. Never take any media report of a case at face value. Media are almost always pro-prosecution.
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June 26, 2012 7:38pm
Johnboy

Barristers are, of course, always pro-wallet. 🙂
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June 26, 2012 7:41pm
Pauleastbay

……………… Media are almost always pro-prosecution…

sorry FE just coughed tea all over the monitor, ya just making stuff up with that one
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June 26, 2012 7:41pm
F E Smith

PaulEB,

An interesting article that you linked to, even if it was in the Grauniad. I wonder if it would be more accurate to say that the left wing media is in trouble. The right wing media (News Corp and Fox, which are all Murdoch, as well as mags like The Spectator) are doing just fine, thank you very much.

Like this palaver in Oz over Gina Rhineheart trying to get people onto the Fairfax board. The journos are running terrified of the scary businesswoman and would rather, it seems, let Fairfax fail than have her on the board.

But while the Fairfax group go under, the News Corp papers are doing just fine, it seems. Not that you would know, judging from the handwringing of the lefty media!
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June 26, 2012 7:42pm
Leaping Jimmy

This is a US lefty perspective on the TPP: has an interview from the owner of the website that leaked the documents the other week which told us that we would be giving up our sovereignty to US corporations, and she is complaining about the US giving up its sovereignty.

Sure its a lefty perspective, but have a listen, cos I can see Key and Grosser tripping over themselves to get an agreement with the US and I’m afraid Grosser might be an expert negotiator but he is naive in commercial law and once this is in place, that’s it.

The TPP is Key’s foreign policy piece de resistance, for his entire term of govt. Its his legacy, foreign policy wise.

He is, on my reading, therefore less interested in what NZ concedes and more interested in getting it completed and signed, no matter what. Mexico joined the other week at Obama’s urging. Australia’s in too. It is apparently going to be left open for other countries to join once its signed.

But why is it being done in secret? Why is every single thing in secret? This goes beyond normal secrecy. The corporate involvement also goes beyond anything we’ve seen before. This is less about govts and much more about corporate-govt interaction with govt ceding lots and corporates gaining lots.

Even if you don’t watch this cos you just can’t bring yourselves to look at what lefties say, you need to educate yourselves on this TPP. On my reading so far from the little we have been told, it really, really stinks. I’m happy to be proven wrong, but if we’re not allowed to know the details, then draw your own conclusions.

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/6/14/breaking_08_pledge_leaked_trade_doc

http://www.citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=3129
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June 26, 2012 7:43pm
F E Smith

PaulEB,

No, I am serious! Have sat and watched too many times as reporters go up and get their info from Crown lawyers and then ignore the defence completely. Have read in disbelief at what has been written about a defence case that appeared to be nothing like what I had presented.

I say again, the media is almost always pro-prosecution.
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June 26, 2012 7:45pm
big bruv

F E Smith

“I say again, the media is almost always pro-prosecution.”

I take it you missed the David Bain trial 🙂
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June 26, 2012 7:46pm
big bruv

Hey….dare I ask if the bludger has been given the arse?
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June 26, 2012 7:46pm
Johnboy

“Have read in disbelief at what has been written about a defence case that appeared to be nothing like what I had presented. ”

Perhaps your perception of yourself in the mirror is at odds with what the rest of the world perceives you as?
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June 26, 2012 7:47pm
F E Smith

Bruv,

the media was anti-Bain until they appeared to judge it politic to be pro-Bain. The media are nothing if not fickle; they want to be on the winning side, and seem willing to change sides at the drop of a hat if they think it will get them on the winning side.

Do I like the media? No, I don’t. Can you tell? 😀
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June 26, 2012 7:49pm
Pauleastbay

FE

Magazines are different, although I stopped with the Spectator after it put out the Australian edition.

Magazines don’t pretend to be supplying facts, when you buy a New Yorker you know you are going to get sickly white liberal opinions .

Fox and the left media are as bad as each other, too much opinion and not enough facts generally.

Only on KB do you get the truth !!!!!!!!!!!!!!…. media pro prosecution goodness gracious
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June 26, 2012 7:54pm
mikenmild

PEB
Love that landoverbaptist site! Check out the 8 reasons God hates the Faroe Islands.
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June 26, 2012 7:56pm
kowtow

Barristers and the media

Watching that fella defend in the latest media hyped court room drama , I;m left with the distinct feeling that cameras DO NOT belong there. There really are some places that should be left out of it.

oh and that goes for the locker rooms,tunnels and half time interviews too….. hotel rooms ,not so much.

Too much effing media.
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June 26, 2012 7:57pm
Pauleastbay

FE

The media as you well know, are given bits of the file, a copy of the Information a SOF etc.

The perception that this makes them pro-proseciton is just that a perception, I would wager that if you were to supply them with a precis of your cross examination of prosecution witnesses they would report the defence diligently.

Which brings me to my next point, full disclosure by the defence to the prosecution – personally I think a spendid plan
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June 26, 2012 7:59pm
Johnboy

So no one should dive in, boots and all, kowtow? Whatever happened to trial by ordeal? 🙂
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June 26, 2012 7:59pm
nasska

“Doctor, I’d like you to evaluate my 13 year-old son.”

“OK: He’s suffering from a transient psychosis with an
intermittent rage disorder, punctuated by episodic radical mood
swings, but his prognosis is good for full recovery.”

“How can you say all that without even meeting him?”

“I thought you said he’s 13?”
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June 26, 2012 8:00pm
Johnboy

Q: How was copper wire invented?

A: Two lawyers were arguing over a penny.
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June 26, 2012 8:04pm
Pauleastbay

……………Love that landoverbaptist site!..

yea but the real christian sites condemning this faux site are even funnier
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June 26, 2012 8:05pm
nasska

Did you hear about the lawyer on vacation whose yacht capsized in dangerous, shark-infested waters?

He surprised his traveling companions by volunteering to swim to the far-off shore for help. As he swam, his companions were startled by the appearance of two dorsal fins — great white sharks, heading straight towards him.

To their surprise, the sharks allowed the lawyer to take hold of their fins, and escorted him safely to shore.

When the lawyer returned with help, his companions asked him how he had managed such an incredible feat. The lawyer answered, “Professional courtesy.”
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June 26, 2012 8:05pm
Johnboy

Most Barristers practice the law because it gives then a grand and glorious feeling.

You give them a grand and they feel glorious.
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June 26, 2012 8:06pm
Johnboy

What happens to a barrister when he takes viagra? He gets taller.
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June 26, 2012 8:09pm
F E Smith

PaulEB,

well, I have seen them get a bit more that just an SOF from the prosecutor! However, I go by what they write, rather than just who they talk to in the Courthouse.

And I am not sure that I agree with you on the reporting a cross examination point. If they hang around for a cross then I am usually surprised (unless it is a Crown cross). I don’t think the defence giving them a precis of the cross (which is usually pretty difficult to do, as a cross is not ‘scripted’ like a brief of evidence is) would make much difference.

And I wholeheartedly disagree with you on defence disclosure. Of anything. It is not the job of the defendant to help the prosecution in their job. And defence disclosure is intended to do just that. Anybody who says it is about court time and the like is being untruthful: it is about allowing the prosecution to fix holes in their case.

If the prosecution cannot prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt then why should the defendant help them do it? We already have to give alibi witnesses to the prosecution (who, oddly enough, sometimes then decide that perhaps they won’t be an alibi witness after all. Why is that, do you think?) and I have no faith in the police at all that the evidence won’t suddenly ‘appear’ to contradict the disclosed defence evidence.
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June 26, 2012 8:11pm
Yvette

Pauleastbay – man do I love the internet, this site is gold and I can’t figure out whether its a piss take much. haha

The site does seem serious –

Answer to masturbation –
If the rod does not work you could also try to cut off his hands:
Mark 9:43: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched
I hope that helps.

However …
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=57166

As they say –
The information presented here is Biblically accurate. Opinions concerning the technical difficulties, fitness requirements, safety, and ratings of self-crucifixion, flagellation, stoning, destroying enemies of GOD utterly, without mercy, and other activities inherent in Christianity are subjective and may differ from yours or others’ opinions; therefore be warned that you must exercise your own judgment as to the difficulty and your ability to safely protect yourself from the inherent risks and dangers. …
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June 26, 2012 8:12pm
F E Smith

nasska,

I do like that one. Another is this:

What is black and brown and looks good on a lawyer? A doberman pinscher!
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June 26, 2012 8:12pm
Pauleastbay

But FE think of the Court time that would be saved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yvette

It s parody site, but if you search around the real outrage by ‘real’ christians is even better.

I afraid if this was true I’d have had my hands lopped off at a very early age
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June 26, 2012 8:15pm
nasska

F E Smith

What about this one:

A judge in a semi-small city in the USA was hearing a drunk-driving case and the defendant, who had both a record and a reputation for driving under the influence, demanded a jury trial. It was nearly 4 p.m. and getting a jury would take time, so the judge called a recess and went out in the hall looking to impanel anyone available for jury duty. He found a dozen lawyers in the main lobby and told them that they were a jury.
The lawyers thought this would be a novel experience and so followed the judge back to the courtroom. The trial was over in about 10 minutes and it was very clear that the defendant was guilty. The jury went into the jury-room, the judge started getting ready to go home, and everyone waited.
After nearly three hours, the judge was totally out of patience and sent the bailiff into the jury-room to see what was holding up the verdict. When the bailiff returned, the judge said, “Well have they got a verdict yet?”
The bailiff shook his head and said, “Verdict? Hell, they’re still doing nominating speeches for the foreman’s position!”
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June 26, 2012 8:16pm
F E Smith

PaulEB,

😀 Of course, I should be pushing for more and more court time (apparently) because people who don’t know anything about legal aid don’t realise that the longer anything goes on the less profit we make, especially under this new system.

It is guilty pleas only as far as I am concerned!!!
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June 26, 2012 8:19pm
F E Smith

nasska,

that is fantastic! I have always wanted to be on a jury but have never had the opportunity.

In the UK we can sit on juries. As can cops, even if it is someone from their station who is in charge of the case!
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June 26, 2012 8:21pm
Pauleastbay

You’re a good man FE have cuppa and put your feet up
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June 26, 2012 8:21pm
Johnboy

Accepted the new system then have you? (After a good fight I might add) 🙂
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June 26, 2012 8:22pm
David Garrett

I wonder if the phool had a major meltdown over his “unjust” demerits and made too many remarks about DPF’s parentage?

But you know what they say, one swallow doesn’t make a spring….he might just have hit the hard stuff today and been too out of it…but we can live in hope..
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June 26, 2012 8:29pm
nasska

David G.

Certainly a dearth of ellipses on GD today. I suspect however, that our friend will be just sulking & licking his wounds.
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June 26, 2012 8:36pm
Johnboy

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1221754/Magpies-grieve-dead-turn-funerals.html

Hopefully he wont! 🙂
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June 26, 2012 8:39pm
Steve (North Shore)

Maybe miniphool told his Dad to stop being a wanker. Therefore Phool is being controlled by his offspring.
princetipytoe = miniphool I reckon, could be wrong
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June 26, 2012 8:40pm
Steve (North Shore)

nasska,
Imagine a wounded troll who then comes back with avengence and has a thermonuclear meltdown 🙂
Can’t wait
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June 26, 2012 8:43pm
nasska

Johnboy

With the number of the sods I’ve sent to magpie heaven over the years I should be due for a kickback from the florist 🙂
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June 26, 2012 8:44pm
Nostalgia-NZ

I see the usual withdrawal symptoms going on in Phil’s absence.

Meanwhile the guy with the silent footwear, the motor-less bike, never considered for a moment the artillery blast of shotgun fire in the middle of it might have been revealing, so they said.
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June 26, 2012 8:46pm
nasska

Steve (North Shore)

He’s been playing it fairly carefully lately. I reckon that he’ll play harder to get with those last 70 demerits. After all commenting on blogs is his whole life & Kiwiblog is the last course left for him to play on.
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June 26, 2012 8:49pm
nasska

Evening Constable Nostalgia……..Trust the duties of blog moderator are not weighing too heavily on you.
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June 26, 2012 8:50pm
big bruv

nasska

By my count Phool may well be bloody close to the 100 demerit mark, that last 30 may have sent him over the edge.

Now…where is tipytoe/edna?
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June 26, 2012 8:51pm
kowtow

johnboy

if you must to dive in , then it has to be trial by water.

and the prosecution always get the desired result 🙂
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June 26, 2012 8:56pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Police yourself nasska, you might like freeing yourself from your own hand.
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June 26, 2012 9:02pm
Johnboy

“Now…where is tipytoe/edna?”

Jeeze BB. Do you take this place that seriously that you notice this stuff? 🙂
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June 26, 2012 9:07pm
David Garrett

Nasska: If THAT is “playing it carefully” I would hate to see the clown in thermonuclear mode…

So what do we reckon about Mr McDonald then?? I think he’s quite likely to walk myself…Beyond reasonable doubt is a bloody high standard, and Greg King knows his onions…
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June 26, 2012 9:10pm
mikenmild

So, is it confirmed that philu is gone for a while?
I was musing today (on a break from working hard for my fellow taxpayers) on a system of ranking Kiwiblog commenters. I decided that a simple bipolar (pun intended) scale would not be sufficent to encapsulate the variety of contributors. What is required is some kind of matrix that places people on multiple scales:
Abusive to respectful (Redbaiter to Pete George)
Nasty to nice (bereal to [I can’t think of anyone])
Credulous to sceptical ( [??] to chiz/cha – who I always get mixed up)
Liberal to conservative (Scott Chris to Lucia Maria]
etc, etc
Too complicated though, I’m afraid.
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June 26, 2012 9:16pm
nasska

David G

Normally yes, but you are assessing the reaction from a rational point of view. Going on past performances last night was very restrained.

Agree on McDonald….a few days I was wondering why they were bothering with a trial, the case was so damaging. Mr King has swung things around a bit.
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June 26, 2012 9:19pm
Johnboy

Where do animal lovers like phil and me come in your scale Milkey? 🙂
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June 26, 2012 9:19pm
mikenmild

I’m pretty sure you and phil are at opposite ends of that particular spectrum JB, but I somehow get the impression you are happy to indulge his eccentricities.
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June 26, 2012 9:21pm
nasska

mikenmild

…”Nasty to nice (bereal to [I can’t think of anyone])”…..

I’m wounded, mortally wounded! 🙂
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June 26, 2012 9:22pm
Johnboy

Mr.King possibly remembered this song nasska. 🙂

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MeCLILELNc
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June 26, 2012 9:23pm
mikenmild

nasska
Possibly there should be an awards night with open voting. Feel free to nominate your self for an appropriate category.
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June 26, 2012 9:24pm
Johnboy

I do love eating some animals I must admit Milkey.
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June 26, 2012 9:24pm
mikenmild

And phil loves feeding some animals JB, so perhaps your tastes are complementary.
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June 26, 2012 9:26pm
nasska

Johnboy

If it weren’t for your hunting dive boots where would you be?
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June 26, 2012 9:26pm
Johnboy

You ever hunted in them nasska? I used to wear two or three pairs of socks once but never dive boots.

You learn something every day eh?

Getting soft these modern hunters I reckon! 🙂
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June 26, 2012 9:29pm
mikenmild

Depends what (or who) you are hunting, perhaps.
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June 26, 2012 9:31pm
nasska

Johnboy

Never a day goes by without another revelation. I guess it would be a silent approach but I’d hate to see the state of your feet at the end of the week.
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June 26, 2012 9:32pm
Johnboy

You don’t need them if you are hunting HOBM supporters Milkey.

A sniff of a Lion Brown Shield at the Bellevue should be enough bait for them suckers! 🙂
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June 26, 2012 9:35pm
Johnboy

I never walked more than 100 metres from the campsite in my socks nasska unless the bearers were handy with some aloe vera lotion!
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June 26, 2012 9:38pm
big bruv

Johnboy

Now you are talking. I don’t know about HOBM supporters but this Ories fan is loving the fact that the much hated Poneke are playing in the Hardup cup.
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June 26, 2012 9:41pm
Johnboy

You better be knowing about them BB. They are playing your lot at the Polo Ground on Saturday! 🙂
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June 26, 2012 9:48pm
big bruv

Not a problem Johnboy, we men from out East have no fear of the left footers.

I expect the mighty Ories to be three from three after the weekend.
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June 26, 2012 9:55pm

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