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June 28, 2010 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 28 June 2010

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Swiftman the infidel

First hash cookie of the day!
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June 28, 2010 8:04am
alex Masterley

Spot ya!
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June 28, 2010 8:09am
Say Goodbye to Hollywood

Watching the English football team reminds me so much of the All Blacks. Over hyped, over paid and when you’re at the business end you get found out how shit you really are.
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June 28, 2010 8:11am
dad4justice

Great to see the Fatherland crushed the Motherland wimps. Go Germany.
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June 28, 2010 8:17am
Inventory2

Why would Jim “Ol’ Man River” Anderton be re-registering the Progressives when he’s told members to give their party votes to Labour? Is this another rort to get him a budget with which to campaign for the Christchurch mayoralty?

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/06/whats-ol-man-river-up-to.html
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June 28, 2010 8:29am
MikeNZ

http://www.financialpost.com/Avertible+catastrophe/3203808/story.html

someone posted this over the weekend.

Pride. Plain pride. serves the USA right – morons.
BP should disclaim a % of the costs to the US govt for their ineptitude.
OB1 needs to be held accountable for this.
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June 28, 2010 8:36am
Pete George

Banning smoking in prisons seems like a no brainer, why should one drug be allowed while others are (supposedly) excluded?

Rethinking Crime and Punishment director Kim Workman said it would be particularly difficult for new prisoners who were already grappling with drug and alcohol withdrawal, and mental and physical health issues.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3860827/Jail-smoking-ban-Quitting-help-needed

Why let them keep feeding one habit and ban others? Doesn’t make sense. It would be less harmful to supply a tranquiliser like kava. Better still, give them yoga lessons.
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June 28, 2010 8:37am
MikeNZ

You may well be right PeteG.
That would be horrible wouldn’t it, but it would be good for their health though.
How about we ban TV’s in their cells so they can’t sleep at night because of the silence?
Now that wouldn’t be good, at least until they got used to the silence i suppose.
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June 28, 2010 8:43am
Pete George

OB1 needs to be held accountable for this.

As one commenter on that article said:
“OBAMA has ONE GOAL: The Redistribution of Wealth & the Destruction of the Capitalist System in America.”

The oil spill is just another part of plot. Black gold is being redistributed all over the gulf.
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June 28, 2010 8:45am
stephen

Banning smoking in prisons seems like a no brainer, why should one drug be allowed while others are (supposedly) excluded?

Because the issue isn’t that they’re getting drugs, the issue is that the government might be sued by guards and inmates for exposure to second hand smoke. Having two prisoners in a cell certainly isn’t helping things.
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June 28, 2010 8:58am
gazzmaniac

PeteG – Obama has to be a goner. One term wonder. Surely the people of the US aren’t stupid enough to let him wreck the country more than he already has.
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June 28, 2010 9:06am
Pete George

Prisoner smoking rates are much higher than in the general population. Why are smokers more likely to commit crimes? Financial need? Or is it just the lower socio-economic demographic that both vices share?

1. What was the biggest health risk facing prisoners identified in the survey?

Previous research on prisoners has identified high levels of alcohol and drug use, gambling as well as depression. In addition to this, the survey identifies that one of the biggest health risks facing prisoners is tobacco smoking. Two-thirds of all prisoners reported being current smokers (67.1%) and females were significantly more likely to be current smokers than males. Mâori male prisoners have one and a half times the prevalence of smoking as Mâori males in the general population, while non-Mâori male prisoners have nearly three times the prevalence of smoking as non-Mâori males in the general population.

“Over half of all prisoners reported being diagnosed with a chronic disease (58.4%) and the most common reported chronic disease was asthma (21.6%).”

http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/pagesmh/5666?Open
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June 28, 2010 9:11am
pollywog

US aren’t stupid enough to…

Never misunderestimate the stupidity of the american public. They gave Bush 2 terms and then theres Palin…
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June 28, 2010 9:13am
Pete George

Never underestimate the shortness of memory of those pushing a political barrow.

How more wrecked is the US now than it was eighteen months ago? At the start of Obama’s term the US was involved in two costly wars and were experiencing the biggest economic downturn in a lifetime.
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June 28, 2010 9:17am
jcuknz

Obviously smoking causes people to become criminals. First Cosmo now smoko @$%@! The solution to the crime problem.
I thought they gave the bushes four terms.
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June 28, 2010 9:24am
philu

i am developing almost a visceral hatred for this shit-government..

an their targetting of the weakest in society…

purely to satisfy their reactionary membership…(and themselves..?..)

to be seen to be ‘being hard’..on the sole-parents…etc…

..and the latest target is prisoners….

..celia lashlie has appeared on national radio…

..and she voices her contempt..and the reasons for her contempt..

..for what this govt plans to do to those already at the very bottom of the heap….

..far better than i could…

(the audio will be here later.. http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon )

what vile/nasty fucken people this government is…

a pox on all of them…

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 28, 2010 9:26am
Sonny Blount

Never misunderestimate the stupidity of the american public.

List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita

6 United States 46,381

33 New Zealand 26,708

Yeah, what morons they are.
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June 28, 2010 9:29am
jcuknz

Bad move Judith … Bill will not want to loose the revenue.
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June 28, 2010 9:29am
backster

“Banning smoking in prisons seems like a no brainer.”

In my view instead of the waffling about introducing it gradually with every prisoners aid,civil rights, Unions and church groups getting involved it should be cold turkey from a certain date. That would act as a deterrent to commission and put some realism into sentencing. The ban need not apply to all prisons from day one but could be introduced progressively starting at the High Security and progressively lower security…..In any event it has been established in in Australia so there is no need to re-invent the wheel in NZ with enquiries and consultations and commissions we just need to copy their practices.
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June 28, 2010 9:32am
Rod

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10654939

So the Herald/Minto and the TV1 producers are surprised their favourite activist causes are not the most important issues according to their public audience. Just shows how out of touch the MSM has become.
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June 28, 2010 9:41am
philu

this govt is just so hell-bent wrong…in so many areas/directions…

these fucken morons can’t even get a basic literacy programme up and running in prisons..

who will pay for the ‘patches’….?

..or will they be forced to just go ‘cold turkey’…

i can appreciate the secondhand smoke issues…

but as celia lashlie ..who knows every prison in this country..firsthand…said..

..there are plenty of options in those prisons..to set up smoking areas…

i’ll bet the screws are really looking forward to this new regime…

..ultra-violent withdrawing prisoners..?..in large numbers…?…..anyone..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 28, 2010 10:05am
starboard

what vile/nasty fucken people this government is…

a pox on all of them

…who pays you to sit at home all day you lazy fuck ???? Yes thats right…that same vile/nasty govt…pull ya head outa your arse loser.
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June 28, 2010 10:08am
Put it away

PhailUre has opinions on literacy ? That is just too funny.
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June 28, 2010 10:10am
Inventory2

i am developing almost a visceral hatred for this shit-government..

an their targetting of the weakest in society…

purely to satisfy their reactionary membership…(and themselves..?..)

to be seen to be ‘being hard’..on the sole-parents…etc…

Has the letter arrived Phil? About bloody time, imho.
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June 28, 2010 10:23am
gazzmaniac

I don’t see why people shouldn’t be allowed to smoke in jail. Who cares, it’s their health not mine. Ditto for people who aren’t in jail.
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June 28, 2010 10:27am
Pete George

Phil, are you including prisoners in “the weakest in society”?

gazzmaniac: I don’t see why people shouldn’t be allowed to smoke in jail. Who cares, it’s their health not mine.

It’s also the health of other prisoners and of prison staff.

Do you think they should also be able to use alcohol and other drugs?
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June 28, 2010 10:37am
Yvette

“PhailUre has opinions on literacy ? That is just too funny.”

It may seem funny, but in this particular case, regarding literacy and prisons, ‘Phlu is right.
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June 28, 2010 10:44am
gazzmaniac

Pete – the use of alcohol and other drugs is irrelevant to this argument. Alcohol can’t be served in prison as they don’t have liquor licenses, and illicit drugs are exactly that – illicit. That said, personally I think if all prisoners were stoned then they might be a bit more manageable.
I can’t see how banning smoking in jail will be a positive step. If you have ever observed someone who is attempting to give up smoking you will understand that they are not pleasant. Let them smoke outside, but don’t ban it altogether.

Shit I am agreeing with Philu.
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June 28, 2010 10:49am
krazykiwi

MSD says:

Most people are honest and use Government services fairly. If you have information about someone who is misusing any of our services, please contact us. Call us on 0800 556 006

Give them a call. They have a file on Mr Ure and based on his anger right now I’d say there could well be some action on it.
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June 28, 2010 10:49am
bhudson

“i am developing almost a visceral hatred for this shit-government..

an their targetting of the weakest in society…

purely to satisfy their reactionary membership…(and themselves..?..)”

That’s right Phil. Its all a plot to destroy the already downtrodden. A giant conspiracy and we’re all in on it.

Banning smoking in prison is only one small step on the path to death by a thousand cuts. Next to be cut are library opening hours. That’ll deprive the masses of access to information services.

But we’ll buy them off with a ‘free lightbulb exchange program’.

That’ll do the trick… Exploit their weakness to enslave them further… eh?…

But free lightbulbs!… gotta make it easy… to replace a library fix with another…

True freedom at last… eh?… ya’reckon?…Phil Ure boots

Go get a fucking job
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June 28, 2010 10:53am
Redbaiter

“Just shows how out of touch the MSM has become.”

Them and their political cronies. No fucking idea any of them.
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June 28, 2010 10:57am
questlove

It’s not the second-hand smoke that’s a concern as it’s not difficult to set up designated smoking areas. The cost of quit-smoking aides and services here is going to be pretty hefty. And what do we get for this spending? A bolstered public image of being hard on criminals.
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June 28, 2010 10:58am
gazzmaniac

In Phil’s defence, I don’t see anything in what he’s posted today to justify the sort of viscious comments that are being posted today. In days past that has not necessarily been the case but today I think it is.
You’re all as bad as each other with the bullying that goes on in the GD.
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June 28, 2010 10:58am
virtualmark

Anyone have an idea on what Hosea Gear has to do to get into the All Blacks? Or perhaps I should re-phrase the question a little … what does Joe Rokocoko have to do to get dropped from the All Blacks?

Personally I think that Joe’s got incriminating photos of Graeme Henry. And I suspect the worst thing about the photos is that it’s not even Graeme’s own goat.
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June 28, 2010 11:02am
starboard

gazzmaniac (561) Says:

June 28th, 2010 at 10:58 am

…not sleeping well ??
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June 28, 2010 11:03am
gravedodger

Of course cynical serial trougher Jamberton will finance a large part of his Mayorlty from his leaders budget and these things are certain:
1 It wont be declared as he is an MP with a big job running his party of one (self)
2 It is hidden behind the denial of OIA scrutiny
3 He is too bloody arrogant to see any rort let alone anything wrong with that. He has earned the right you know.
4 He is a god and don’t you bloody serfs forget it.
5 CHCH is just so lucky he will give his all to do to the council what he has single handedly done to every other group unfortunate to fall under his stewardship, destruction within three years if not sooner.
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June 28, 2010 11:06am
Pete George

gazzmaniac: “If you have ever observed someone who is attempting to give up smoking you will understand that they are not pleasant.”

I know. It shouldn’t be a reason for not banning though, it should be considered in transition procedures.

“Let them smoke outside, but don’t ban it altogether.”

That could be a reasonable compromise – as an earned privilege. I’m not an advocate of harsh prison conditions, but I don’t see cigarette smoking as a right for prisoners.
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June 28, 2010 11:10am
Murray

Phool has a hissy fit because he may have to actually get of his lazt theiving ass and make a contribution to society and gazzman wants to hold his hand?

Well there’s a massive boo hoo moment.
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June 28, 2010 11:14am
hj

Phil U
U got two different women Up the dUff. U claim to be highly intelligent and therefore able to earn a living(?). Don’t Ur 2 mothers help? Whatsa U problem? U oughta look in Ur mirror.
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June 28, 2010 11:19am
hj

Condom, frenchie, the pill, the morning after pill, abortion,… DPB.
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June 28, 2010 11:25am
stephen

I can’t see how banning smoking in jail will be a positive step.

It’s also used as currency, which (don’t have time to search) is i think is one of the reasons stuff like that is heavily restricted/banned in Japanese prisons – with that measure you can’t get beaten up for stuff you don’t have. Something like that. It was in one of those ‘inside a Japanese prison’ articles to do with Peter Bethune.
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June 28, 2010 11:44am
philu

the celiia lashlie nterview is now online..

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 28, 2010 12:07pm
philu

and that the rightie in liberal clothing..p george..supports this cruel and unusual punishment..

..comes as absolutely no surprise…

why don’t you just ‘sign-up..?..george…?

stop just kissing their arses..on an ongoing basis.

and take the plunge….

and stop fucken pretending to be something you clearly are not…

i tthink i have fucken less respect for you..

..than (almost) anyone here…

..you are george-the-pretender..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 28, 2010 12:10pm
Pauleastbay

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3861175/Taxi-drivers-protest-airport-decision

A great move by the Wellington Airport. Airports are our gateway for tourists and business people. It is shameful to see the wrecks that masquerade as Taxi’s in Wellington.

Its even worse leaving the Wellington domestic terminal and getting appraoched by scruffy dirty individuals touting their wreck as suitable transport, some could see it as intimidating.
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June 28, 2010 12:10pm
gazzmaniac

So what if it’s used as currency? If tobacco is banned then something else will take its place.
All those who are advocating the removal of tobacco from prisons: I challenge you to last a week as a prison guard having to deal with the consequences of that ban.
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June 28, 2010 12:15pm
Pete George

What other addictions should they be able to keep feeding in prison Phil? Sex? Gambling? Stealing? Assaulting? Anything else they’d really like to keep doing?
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June 28, 2010 12:15pm
Lance

Pollywog wrote

“Never misunderestimate the stupidity of the american public. They gave Bush 2 terms and then theres Palin…”

And NZ had Helun for 2 terms… Dumb and Dumber
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June 28, 2010 12:18pm
gazzmaniac

Pete – stealing and assaulting are both illegal, and sex is illegal if there is no consent from one more of the parties involved, and gambling is illegal if done outside a regulated premesis. I have no problem with consenting adults having sex in prison, and the rest are all illegal in prison anyway. That argument is irrelevant and misleading.
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June 28, 2010 12:20pm
Pauleastbay

Lance ..

Three terms, dumb dumber and fucking stupid
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June 28, 2010 12:23pm
dime

im loving the smoking ban idea.

bring it on.

that is all 🙂
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June 28, 2010 12:23pm
American Gardener

I find it interesting the way a number of you beat up on PhilU & criticize his beneficiary status. None of us know when misfortune or madness might overtake us. It is wise not to become to much a slave of hubris.
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June 28, 2010 12:25pm
Sonny Blount

Obviously you don’t read his posts AG.

Good to see you follow the first rule of reading Kiwiblog.
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June 28, 2010 12:28pm
krazykiwi

@American Gardener – phil is neither unfortunate nor is he mad. He is an abuser of the welfare system. He can and should do income generating work to provide for himself and his son. There is no hubris in stating these facts.
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June 28, 2010 12:34pm
Yvette

Jail crowding fears as three strikes starts to bite
“Four violent crimes have been committed every day since the three-strikes law passed, sparking concerns about prison numbers.
The Government’s controversial three-strikes bill, which came into force on June 1, lists 40 serious violent offences that attract “strikes” upon conviction.
According to Justice Ministry statistics, as at June 17, 60 people had been charged with 70 offences on the list. If the charges become convictions, each of those people would be issued with a first strike.
… Official projections released in January said only 56 more prison beds would be needed by 2015 to cover the effect of the new law. The total cost would be $27.5m, rising to $141.4m by 2030.
But Nigel Hampton, QC, said the first round of figures showed those projections were too low.
“I don’t think anybody ever sat down and thought about the numbers involved,” he said.”
– http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3860086/Jail-crowding-fears-as-three-strikes-starts-to-bite
JAIL SMOKING BAN
Corrections Association president Beven Hanlon told Radio New Zealand prisoners did not like change.
“People coming off nicotine can be very unpredictable, can be very anxious, aggressive and we’re going to have a large part of our prison population going through that and we’re (prison officers) going to have to manage them,” he said.

How many inmates will be on their second or third strike without leaving jail after the first?
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June 28, 2010 12:34pm
Put it away

AG – “I find it interesting the way a number of you beat up on PhilU & criticize his beneficiary status. None of us know when misfortune or madness might overtake us. It is wise not to become to much a slave of hubris.”

No one is beating up on his beneficiary status, it’s his beneficary fraud status that bothers us taxpayers. He is not a deserving case, his only problem is laziness ( well and the fact that he’s ot-nay oo-tay ight-bray, if you know what I mean, but I’m sure there’s something he could do. Flipping burgers wouldn’t beyond his capacities. ). He passes himself off as needing a benefit to raise his child but his child is at school and he has all day as free time out of the house to tap out his drivel on the library pc. Tell you what A.G, If I ever decide one day that I’m too lazy to work and start dishonestly collecting a benefit I don’t need or deserve, then you can say what you like about me.
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June 28, 2010 12:53pm
malcolm

If you want to hear some reasons why the prison smoking ban is a good idea, listen to silly Celia Lashlie (former women’s prison governor – thank god for that) telling us why it’s a bad idea:

http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/ntn/ntn-20100628-0908-Ultimately_banning_smoking_in_NZ_Prisons-048.mp3

The only thing she said which was reasonable is that the real reason is not second-hand smoke. I agree and think that Judith Colins should be more bold and say she’s banning cigarettes because prison should be about improving yourself. If every convict left prison having been forcibly disabused of their cigarette addiction that would be a good thing.
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June 28, 2010 12:56pm
malcolm

How many inmates will be on their second or third strike without leaving jail after the first?

No idea, but it sounds OK to me. What exactly is the problem with having violent criminals in prison?
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June 28, 2010 12:57pm
Yvette

Does Hone Harawira support this smoking ban?
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June 28, 2010 1:03pm
Fale Andrew Lesa

Personally, I find the boo’s by English supporters during Germany’s national anthem at last night’s game offensive and an indication of poor sportsmanship.

Never before have I experienced such poor judgement during such a symbolic display of pride through the presentation of our national anthems.

😀

I am proud that Germany was victorious, Germany and it’s support base certainly displayed the best character on the field that day.
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June 28, 2010 1:05pm
starboard

All those who are advocating the removal of tobacco from prisons: I challenge you to last a week as a prison guard having to deal with the consequences of that ban

…quite simple really….if scumbag prisoner is aggressive/plays up/ assault officers…scumbag prisoner is beaten by officers with long battens until prisoner calms down and learns that he is in prison for punishment and his acts of aggression will not be tolerated….rest of prison population learns real quick…they pull their heads in.
There will be no tail wagging the dog.
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June 28, 2010 1:07pm
Whafe

American Gardner, again you expose yourself to be an idiot, just read a selection of Philu’s posts and you will fast realise that he is the first living brain donor….
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June 28, 2010 1:09pm
Inventory2

Does Hone Harawira support this smoking ban?

Yes. From yesterday’s Herald story:

Anti-smoking Maori Party MP Hone Harawira supported the move but warned a total ban could lead to an outbreak of violence among prisoners.

“I’m mindful of the fact that you can make people pretty scratchy when you cut things off. One thing I do know is that inmates won’t be allowed to go outside for a smoke,” he said.

“I like to think that the guys in there rebuilding their lives are also rebuilding their health. Prison tends to be a place where people come out healthier than when they go in, they don’t have the opportunity to do a lot of the things they were doing before.”
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June 28, 2010 1:16pm
gazzmaniac

starboard – you know as well as I do that beating up prisoners doesn’t work as a deterrent and will simply result in more assaults on guards. What if you were in jail and it was you receiving the beating for swearing or some equally victimless crime?
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June 28, 2010 1:19pm
Rex Widerstrom

What, nothing from DPF on the startling success of the much-praised 3 strikes law?!

Four violent crimes have been committed every day since the three-strikes law passed… as at June 17, 60 people had been charged with 70 offences on the list. If the charges become convictions, each of those people would be issued with a first strike.

Wow, that deterrent effect predicted by DPF, Garrett and others is sure having a chilling effect on the calculating, rational minds of all those hardened criminals.

Thank goodness we have that law, and can now wait round for these 60 people to commit two more violent crimes, smug in the knowledge that once they do we can lock them up for good. Perfect solution to rising crime, and far superior to the idea of intervening much earlier in their offending career, with more carrots and more sticks, to prevent some offending further; weeding out the mentally ill and treating them in a secure facility; and identitfying the handful of true psychopaths and locking them away before they get to number three.

Yep, if it weren’t for Garrett and his cheer squad, we might be over-run by… let’s see… 60 crimes over 17 days… 3.5 serious crimes a day, every day.
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June 28, 2010 1:22pm
Murray

AG hes a self medicating convincted armed offender who admits to being on the DPB by choice, or as a “right” as he puts it.

Sorry did the facts just take a chunk out of your ass there?
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June 28, 2010 1:24pm
stephen

So what if it’s used as currency? If tobacco is banned then something else will take its place.

Well the point was to deny them the ability to trade while also denying them all but a very few posessions – less violence and theft that way I think it was. Tobacco is very versatile, and like i said they don’t really have much else, in Japan anyway.
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June 28, 2010 1:26pm
starboard

GazzM… IF I was unfortunate enough to land myself in the clink..I would a) shut my mouth..b) respect the wardens..c)..serve out my time and learn from the mistake that saw me locked up… but you wont see me in jail Gazz…I have respect for the law..I know right from wrong.
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June 28, 2010 1:32pm
malcolm

Wow, that deterrent effect predicted by DPF, Garrett and others is sure having a chilling effect on the calculating, rational minds of all those hardened criminals.

Rex, you’re being premature and trying to score a non-existent point. Firstly, most of those 60 were probably unaware of the law and in any event, a completely rational and calculating criminal would only alter their behaviour after the first warning, as it only after the first warning that the “3-strikes” law changes the risk/return calculation. Your first crime is still free 🙂

And deterrent is only part of it. Under this law, violent criminals will spend longer in prison, and it’s hard to commit violent crimes when you’re locked up.
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June 28, 2010 1:32pm
Yvette

It would be interesting to have the occasional poll of the great ‘unwashed masses’ on a range of topics – like for one: what do you understand of the three strikes law?
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June 28, 2010 1:34pm
bhudson

Rex,

You say we need “more carrots and more sticks, to prevent some offending further”

The 3 stikes is a stick. So to keep you happy all we need are the carrots. Seems pretty simple. What should those carrots be?
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June 28, 2010 1:37pm
malcolm

Carrots! That’s a brilliant idea. Instead of cigarettes, let them buy carrots in prison.
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June 28, 2010 1:42pm
Rex Widerstrom

malcolm points out:

And deterrent is only part of it. Under this law, violent criminals will spend longer in prison, and it’s hard to commit violent crimes when you’re locked up.

I acknowledge that, malcolm – and that’s my point. They’ll spend longer in jail after committing at least three violent crimes (though it’s likely most of them will have offended in a similar way before, laws shouldn’t be retrospective so I’m not criticising it for that).

However you’ll soon find that the people hitting their “third” strike have a long record of “lesser” offending behind them, including a raft of offences against the person which don’t qualify as strikes. Some, like Burton, will have in excess of 100 (IIRC).

What I’m critical of is that prison is a revolving door up until strike three, with the periods between revolutions being lengthened each time, to no avail.

No one should get to 100 convictions. Early intervention should have brought an end to their offending or identified them as a sociopath for whom any intervention would be ineffective and locked them safely away long before strike 3.

My position is that such a policy would see minor crime plummet, far fewer people in our jails, and a small select few identified as having sadistic streak and for whom the harm caused to others was in fact the motivation for their offending and not an indicator of lack of empathy. That class of person would probably never see the outside of a prison. Not only would we all be safer, but we’d have a lot less graffiti, vandalism and other early signs of a developing antisocial personality.
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June 28, 2010 1:43pm
Bryla

“What should those carrots be?” That’s easy! A government or corporate credit card so that people we might think deranged or moronic can have all the money and respect that other people work for. Why should politicians and corrupt CEOs be the only recipients?

As for tobacco, the prison officer is right to be worried about prisoners’ reactions to deprivation. I remember Queensland in the eighties when prisoners had to riot and burn the facilities and equipment to get some basic reforms. The riots worked a treat, and it seems your government wants the same (for some unexplained reason).

As for who should be in prison? Bedrater and about half the loony commenters here. It may not work, but a dose of reality couldn’t hurt much either.
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June 28, 2010 1:44pm
Rex Widerstrom

bhudson asks:

The 3 stikes is a stick. So to keep you happy all we need are the carrots. Seems pretty simple. What should those carrots be?

You misunderstand. Someone on their third strike is way beyond accepting a positive incentive not to offend. And 3 strikes clearly isn’t a stick for them either.

I’m talking about people much earlier in their offending careers. And the carrots – and sticks – would to some extent need to be tailored to things to which the individual will respond best.

However one thing which seems to have a deterrent value on most people early in their offending is shame. Hence I’m all for the initiative of that police officer who rounded up the little s**tbags who were graffitiing his town, put them in vest which identified them as vandals, and made them clean up their own mess and that of their mates.

Compare that with the macho points able to be scored by saying you were sent to juvenile detention, or even PD.

An Aboriginal custom I’m interested in over here basically forces the offender to sit there while the family of the victim – and the victim themself if they wish – tell them exactly what they think of them. In front of their family and friends. But I’m not talking our Westernised, essentially polite, court-room based “victim impact statements”. This is raw, emotional, and often involves shouting, crying etc. I’ve seen the effect on a man who’s asked by little children “Why did you hurt our daddy?” and has an elderly woman pouring out her emotion about how she felt when she was told her son had been hurt. [Note that this is additional to, not a substitute for, any court sentence].

Having been through the Western court and prison system and observed this sort of “payback”, I know which one affected me the most. But then I’m not a sociopath… a group who, as I’ve said above, need to be separated out as soon as possible, not after the third strike.
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June 28, 2010 1:52pm
malcolm

OK, fair enough Rex. We’ve had this discussion before and I agree with your idea about taking a holistic view of each criminal, but I doubt such a scheme could get off the ground. Just getting three-strikes (and with a very tight entry criteria, as you say) has been hard enough. I would support making the three-strikes more encompassing, e.g. after the first strike, the pool of offences which constitute a second strike should be wider. And burglary should be included from the start.

Anyway, give it chance Rex. Don’t declare it a failure when you can’t reasonably say that from the information to date – which is the case at present.
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June 28, 2010 1:54pm
bhudson

Rex (1:43pm)

A laudable approach that, in concept, would seem to deliver. But without specifics it is nothing more than a nice idea

“Early intervention should have brought an end to their offending or identified them as a sociopath for whom any intervention would be ineffective and locked them safely away long before strike 3.”

What would those interventions be? How would the identification of sociopathic behaviour be made – psychological assessments for all offences? (or only offences on the current 3 strikes list?)
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June 28, 2010 1:57pm
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/no-pot-researchers-aren%E2%80%99t-smoking-anything/

“…How refreshing to read a story about medical marijuana that doesn’t contain one lame joke about munchies, forgetfulness, or bongs …

… and actually gets down to exploring why smart people in lab coats think pot is a fascinating storehouse of compounds.

The levelheaded folks at Science News explore “the long march to credibility for cannabis research,”…

… which, Nathan Seppa soberly explains, “has been built on molecular biology.”

Seppa’s article “Not Just a High” is a great reminder that beyond Cypress Hill and Weeds …

… and behind all the hype and hysteria over loosening state laws and booming dispensaries …

… there’s a serious and credible body of research making the case for a host of medicinal marijuana uses.

Seppa details how THC mimics the effects of compounds in our bodies …

… and how both versions—cannabinoids from the plant and endocannabinoids from our bodies—bind to receptor proteins dubbed CB1 and CB2.

And that’s where the magic begins:

‘..When a person consumes cannabis, a flood of THC molecules bind to thousands of CB1 and CB2 receptors … .

The binding triggers so many internal changes that … decades after the receptors’ discovery …

… scientists are still sorting out the effects.

From a biological standpoint, smoking pot to get high is like starting up a semitruck just to listen to the radio.

There’s a lot more going on.

The article covers several promising new avenues of pot study … including fresh research that suggests THC may kill cancer cells.

The piece is well worth checking out, especially for anyone who still thinks medical marijuana research is simply a gussied-up front group for stoners.

Not to mention that it will totally blow your mind … man…”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 28, 2010 2:00pm
bhudson

Rex (1:53pm)

(Sorry I missed your reply while I was typing my earlier one.)

I dont disagree with your comments in the 1:53pm response. Would that we could find the money, will and resources to make that approach work. Thank you
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June 28, 2010 2:02pm
Rex Widerstrom

bhudson:

I’m conscious that I’m writing great screeds here and it’s not my blog, so I’ll try to be reasonably brief and answer your questions.

Sociopathic behaviour would be evident even to a lay person in the justice system if the “shaming” deterrent I’ve mentioned above were used in whatever form. No shame for an offence against a person when confronted by that person’s relatives and friends would indicate a potential sociopath. So might the nature of their offending (tying up an elderly lady to rob her home might be a sign of an inept burglar who didn’t check if the house was empty. Harming that person beyond what it takes to tie her up indicates you derive pleasure from harm). And so on. If someone were flagged as a potential sociopath then they should probably be assessed by a board of preofessionals and lay people (as the Parole Board is), who could order further tests, observation, etc.

The nature of interventions is much harder to summarise because, as I’ve said, it works best when tailored as closely as possible to the motives and psyche of the offender. For msot young petty criminals, looking tough to their peers is at least part of the motive. That’s why the pink vests and the squeegee works so well. With others it may be the adrenalin rush… perhaps a choice of joining the army (even the Territorials) as an alternative to jail might work. Others may genuinely be stealing because they have no home, no food, and no stability – provision of those things through a properly resourced network of group homes (with appropriate curfews etc) might be appropriate. And so on… but as I say, the more tailored it can be, the better it will work.

[edit: a lot of it isn’t expensive, especially if we divert resources currently used ineffectively, and take into account savings in property damage (insurance premiums) etc].

malcolm:

I would have thought that a plan which suggests reducing the number of serious offenders by targeting them when they’re younger would meet with the approval of those who want to see less people in prison, because that’s the aim. And David Garrett has told me that even he sees the sense in it, but “had to start somewhere”. My concern is that he’s started at the wrong (but populist end) and, having achieved that, has done nothing else.
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June 28, 2010 2:09pm
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/why-god-doesn%E2%80%99t-listen-to-your-prayers/

“…As a result of my superficial upbringing as a Christian I was ignorant …. Biblically illiterate … and theologically naive.

Rather than thinking for myself I simply accepted what I was told;…

… God answers my prayers, Jesus saves and that all of those non-Christians are damned (among many other doctrines).

This ignorance and obedience to Church leaders (most always men) is commonplace in conservative Christianity.

Less than 10% of Christians have read the entire Bible … and a large amount have never read any of it.

Many still believe that Moses wrote the Pentateuch … (despite his description of his own death) …

… and that we descended from Adam and Eve.

Most have no idea that for much of Christian history common people never read the Bible.

In fact the Church authorities either killed or persecuted those who first translated the Bible into vernacular.

But looking back I now realize that maintaining this ignorance was all part of the agenda.

Most conservative Christians despise theology … and refuse to teach it to their members.

Questions are dangerous.

History is suppressed … and lies are told about other religions.

The hypocrisy here is glaring as the leaders of any given Church have probably gone through seminary and have read theology, studied some philosophy and know the complex history of Christianity.

But the same process of investigating and doubting is readily denied to lay people by conservative Christians.

Worse yet it is often framed as the work of the devil.

Much can be said about the ignorance of Christians … and need for more thorough education …

… but this essay is about prayer … so I digress.

Got prayer?

The Nazis certainly did.

The belts of their troops read “God with us.”

And lets not forget about the close relationship between the Nazi Party and the Catholic Church.

The Confederates believed God was on their side.

The Crusaders prayed for victory.

Muslim extremists prayed for success when flying the planes into the World Trade Center.

And of course Americans believed God was on our side in WWII.

The Union was praying just as hard as the confederates … and people in the Trade Center … and on the airplanes … prayed.

Which group got their prayers answered?

Which side has God intervened in history for?

If one is a theist and believes in an omnipotent God that can intervene in the world …

… one is faced with the dilemma presented above.

Whose side is God on?…”..(cont…)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 28, 2010 2:15pm
Luc Hansen

How many times did Espiner exclaim to Rodney Hide in yesterdays Q+A interview: “But that’s not true!”

Is that the same as saying:”You are lying, Mr Hide” ?

I see he trotted out his lies about NIWA temperature series again. NIWA has already comprehensively rebutted his distortions here. An extract:

At the heart of Mr Hide’s criticism are two independent time-series using land-based temperature measurements. These are the long-running 7-station series which uses a composite record of measurements for seven places around New Zealand and goes back more than 100 years; and an independent, 11-station series which uses measurements from another 11 stations and stretches back almost 80 years. The 7-station series uses adjusted data to account for site changes, whereas the 11-station series uses unadjusted data. Both show a long-term warming trend for New Zealand.

Note also the date of this press release: May 06, 2010. Mr Hide has had plenty of time to digest this and the fact that he still trots out his pet canard reflects poorly on his ethical standards – but I guess that was confirmed independently with his lavish travel expenses scandal.

And to make the statement that the facts don’t back up the AGW theory is simply risible – understandable from the loony Kiwiblog extremists but unsettling when coming from a Minister of the Crown.

The greatest shame is that his contrarianism detracts from his entirely reasonable objections to the ETS scheme.

Observation after observation confirms accelerating climate change – from the increase in average global temperature, to increase in average global sea levels, to rapidly melting glaciers and ice caps – all of which point to the need for immediate action before tipping points are reached that take the equation out of our control.

The dishonest posturing of this venal politician encourages the continued plundering of this planet with reckless disregard for the fate of future generations.

The sooner he is out of our public life the better, in my opinion.
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June 28, 2010 2:30pm
Brian Harmer

I would be really grateful if someone would remind me where to find the instructions on how to use RIP to rid me of pestilential posters. I recall someone posted a sample of such coding, but for th life of me can’t find it. Reposting the instructions would be a service to many I think.
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June 28, 2010 2:35pm
philu

“..but you wont see me in jail Gazz…I have respect for the law..I know right from wrong…”

careful when driving..eh..?

a vehicular-manslaughter will see you inside…

oh arrogant/hubristic-one….!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 28, 2010 2:38pm
Inventory2

Forget Phil, forget religion, forget Climate Change and the ETS for a while – we’ve got a World Cup-themed Caption Contest …

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/06/world-cup-caption-contest.html
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June 28, 2010 2:40pm
philu

yeah..good on ya harmer…!

fuck off..!..eh..?

i mean..you are such a source of scintillating/intelligent comment yrslf..

..eh..?

(knowledge/having yr ideas/beliefs/prejudices challenged..makes you ‘uneasy’..eh..?..)

wtf have you ever said that is of the slightest interest/amusement..

you mindless fucken rightwing drone..!

piss off..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 28, 2010 2:41pm
shady

Mad Catherine Delahunty has decided the so-called abuse in parliament needs to be named and shamed by twitter.

“Green MP Catherine Delahunty has started a Twitter account where examples of abuse will be exposed for all to see. She says she is irritated, and sometimes sickened, by the personal abuse that occurs in Parliament’s debating chamber under the guise of robust debate

Already one MP has been named on the Twitter feed. Attorney-General Chris Finlayson is featured for describing a comment made by Labour MP Trevor Mallard as a psychotic outburst.”

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=177935

What a joke!!!
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June 28, 2010 2:43pm
American Gardener

Philu – I understand from your ‘fans above’ that you work on a library computer. They see that as evidence of your laziness, personally I see it as evidence of why we need libraries. We need libraries ( and many other things like public transport) to provide resources to members of our society who are unable to provide for themselves.

99.999% of people want to work and provide for themselves.It is hard to believe that there can be many people who are happy with the lifestyle a benefit affords. Working is a source a self respect – providing for ones family.
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June 28, 2010 2:47pm
big bruv

Luc

Is it possible that you climate change con men can tell the truth just once?
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June 28, 2010 2:50pm
Johnboy

Phool is the other 0.001%.
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June 28, 2010 2:50pm
American Gardener

I have to confess to being a ‘born-again leftie’ – a socialist lick spittle , a jackbooted national socialist fascist forcing the Link Bus onto god fearing V8 driving climate change deniers 🙂 Having blogged for four different right wing blogs under different names my credentials as a right thinker are sound. Time & circumstances can sometimes lead to an epiphany.
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June 28, 2010 2:52pm
American Gardener

Luc – I find it very disturbing when a minister of the crown chooses his own ideological rhetoric over the evidence based science of a crown research institute.
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June 28, 2010 2:55pm
Sonny Blount

AG,

Philu – I understand from your ‘fans above’ that you work on a library computer.

He is lying about the library computer you idiot. He did it one day to try to pretend he was too poor for an internet connection.

It is hard to believe that there can be many people who are happy with the lifestyle a benefit affords

It has nothing to do with being happy. The reality of the human condition is the thing that makes things happen for people is fear and consequences. We cannot remove fear from the experience of living. If you don’t work, eventually you don’t eat.

There should be no unemployment benefit, there should be a temporary job seekers allowance, and institutions to house those unfit for work.
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June 28, 2010 3:07pm
Sonny Blount

I find it very disturbing when a minister of the crown chooses his own ideological rhetoric over the evidence based science of a crown research institute.

I think most here agree. Fire Nick Smith!
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June 28, 2010 3:10pm
Sonny Blount

We don’t need NIWA’s data to tell us what will happen to the climate, the answer is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eemian
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June 28, 2010 3:15pm
philu

blount for minister of social welfare..oh..!..and prisons..!

i have no internet connection at my house…

and i do use libraries…

if it was good enough for g.b.shaw….

it’ll do me…

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 28, 2010 3:15pm
Sonny Blount

Someone also needs to call CYPS as well as WINZ to pick up PhilUs home alone offspring next time hes at the library all day until 11pm.
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June 28, 2010 3:18pm
Put it away

Gardener I used to think you were just a little dim, but it’s clear now that you are trolling.
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June 28, 2010 3:18pm
Redbaiter

“I would be really grateful if someone would remind me where to find the instructions on how to use RIP to rid me of pestilential posters. I recall someone posted a sample of such coding, but for th life of me can’t find it. Reposting the instructions would be a service to many I think.”

Check Saturday or Sunday’s GD. Believe me, its well worth the effort.
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June 28, 2010 3:23pm
Sonny Blount

I just clicked the link to his blog article in his name. It is an absurdly childish psycho analysis of kiwiblog commenters.

He is beyond dim.
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June 28, 2010 3:24pm
Brian Harmer

Wow! Philu jumps to the conclusion that he is the one I want to get rid of. What on earth gave him that idea?
And even better, I have been accused by him of being a “mindless fucken rightwing drone”. That should have Redbaiter rolling in the aisles. While you are in the library Phil, ask one of the librarians where they keep the dictionaries. The word you were struggling to find is “fucking”.
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June 28, 2010 3:25pm

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