General Debate 11 June 2010

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pdm

Inv2 I know you lurk her most days so I leave this message for you.

What is going on with your comments area. Ordinary people like me are being rejected and I have so much I want to say at the moment.

Are you like Bob The Builder – can you fix it?
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June 11, 2010 7:31am
Whafe

Please all when you head out today, remember to take all your credit cards, not just your business one, because it seems that most pollies seem to only remember to take their work credit cards out with them…. Idiots they are!
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June 11, 2010 7:38am
Chicken Little

I still haven’t received a reply from Dr Nick Smiths office regarding the dates and times for his taxpayer funded ETS propaganda meetings.

I shall ring this morning and try to find out why they are so secret as to not be advertised in advance.
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June 11, 2010 8:17am
Yvette

Tai is sentenced to 2 years 10 months for killing Vercoe, less parole.

Now “Killing New Zealand’s most venomous spider [katipo] could now earn culprits jail time [1 year] or a $100,000 fine under changes to the law.” – stuff.co
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June 11, 2010 8:24am
Luc Hansen

A Friday Haiku.

warm spring in Iran
bombs away /bombs away/ bombs away
just because we can
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June 11, 2010 8:32am
MikeNZ

I thought my wife was being too hard on the pollies about their spending on business credit cards but really she’s right.
They need smacking big time for two reasons.

1. They are not Dumb, this is common sense as business people use these type of cards all the time.
They know whether something is for business or not and can justify it in an expense sheet with people names who benefited and why it is a business expense, just like other people do in the real world.

2. If they can’t do this properly why should they be trusted to think through the best options for us for using our money.

The issue of the rules not being clear is specious at best.
They know (common sense) what is business (state business) and not.
There is no excuse and goes to either competency or rorting (theft against the employer) the taxpayer.
They should be charged with <i>theft of as an employee as people can be in the real world.
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June 11, 2010 8:37am
rouppe

I was just looking up the parliament website cause I couldn’t remember what David Cunliffe looked like. Then I saw Shane and Jacinda Adern and wondered if they were related (since they are in different ideological parties.)

When I was looking up Jacinda’s bio, it says she graduated from Waikato at the end of 2001. then she went to Arizona State university for an undetermined period (have to be at least 1 year, probably 2) before turning up as:
* an advisor to Helen Clark in 2005
* a Policy Advisor to the Cabinet Office in London 2006-2007
* a Senior Policy Advisor to several people in the British constabulary

I was just wondering, doesn’t an advisor have to have a reasonable degree of experience in the field of policy they are advising on? How can she be an effective advisor straight out of uni? I would of thought you’d be a research assistant or something for several years first or be spending several years buried in some godforsaken hole experiencing the plight of youth vs justice before you can advise on anything to do with it…?

And if she did do that sort of graft, why isn’t it in her bio?
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June 11, 2010 8:42am
Lipo

How does Sea Shepard Society get away with saying they have a nonviolence policy
What sinking ships and side swiping them with a Can Opener is non violent

I just don’t get it

Can you just make stuff up these days and silly journos will print it
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June 11, 2010 8:43am
Put it away

Luc you ignoramus, a haiku has seven syllables in the second line.
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June 11, 2010 8:50am
SouthernRight

I understand Shane Jones mentor is John Tamihere. Guess JT was the one who taught him to self destruct since he is so good at it himself.
Fancy having the porn issue hanging over your head for two years – not only was he a dork for paying for it with the card, he has also sat on the truth for such a long time.
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June 11, 2010 8:53am
Inventory2

@ pdm – fixed
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June 11, 2010 9:02am
Inventory2

@ Lipo – limpet mines, buteric acid, and propellor snagging are fine, but Sea Shepherd’d “non-violent” policy draws the line at bows and arrows.
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June 11, 2010 9:05am
103PapPap

Imagine how embarrassed Chris Carter will be when his husband finds out that the taxpayer paid for the flowers!
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June 11, 2010 9:14am
Put it away

Luc, for your educational enhancement, here is a proper haiku:

Bombs in Iran
opressive evil loons die.
Who gives a rat’s ass?
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June 11, 2010 9:15am
Rick Rowling

I was just wondering, doesn’t an advisor have to have a reasonable degree of experience in the field of policy they are advising on?

In business, sure. Not in politics – you just need to believe that you know what’s best for everyone else.
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June 11, 2010 9:16am
MikeNZ

http://times.cluster.newsint.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7145665.ece

This piece credits Iran with a 3 -0 win over Israel in the propaganda war.
Whether that is correct or not I don’t know, what I do know is Israel still exists and until that isn’t so Iran and Islam hasn’t won.

The next round is nullifying Israel’s Nukes either by having their own or by getting international condenation to cancel them.
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June 11, 2010 9:35am
john

Hey,
Who said this kid did not know the politics of this debate when his father is a high placed green activist and employee of Ecan.

From the Press:-

De Spa’s father, Paul de Spa, said last night that he and his family had attended the protest but he did not want to comment on what happened.

“Yes, I work for ECan and I am a political person, but this isn’t actually about that, this is about me as a dad. I’m really just in dad mode.

“I’m certainly not making any comment about what happened because it’s sub judice,” he said
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June 11, 2010 9:35am
Falafulu Fisi

Rouppe said…
I was just wondering, doesn’t an advisor have to have a reasonable degree of experience in the field of policy they are advising on?

That’s exactly what I thought.

Rick Rowling said…
Not in politics – you just need to believe that you know what’s best for everyone else.

Rick, I disagree with you here. You need to be a very well read person if you’re a politician, because their task as lawmakers, they need to base their decision on reasons & facts not twisted ideology.

I noted Jacinda making noise ( a few times) about raising minimum wages last year (on RedAlert). I think that she is in that parliamentary committee that looks at this issue. I posted some links there on those blog posts of hers about peer review economic papers that showed the devastating effects of raising minimum wages as it lead to higher rate of youth unemployment. It was obvious that she (or her staffs) didn’t know about those researches. The point here is that politicians need to have experienced first & foremost before entering parliament, otherwise, they would make laws that do us all, based on their misguided belief/knowledge. I hope that she read those references I quoted for her at RedAlert to read and perhaps she has because I haven’t seen her since then making a blog post at RedAlert talking about raising minimum wages.
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June 11, 2010 9:36am
Brian Smaller

In relation to how to deal with the fallout of the ministerial credit cards scandal, if Annette King’s advice to Shame Jones was so good how come she didn’t say that Chris Carter had to get his head down and bum up?
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June 11, 2010 9:42am
Chthoniid

Yvette- that applies to any animals listed under the Wildlife Act. The thing about the Wildlife Act is that invertebrates (spiders, insects etc) aren’t “legally” classed as an animal until they are actually listed.

The katipo now joins the Nelson cave spider as the two spider species now protected under the Act. I’m pleased they’re not listing all weta species. That could have made things like forestry, very, very challenging.

In practice, the maximum sentences for wildlife crimes mean very little (outside of China). Convictions in NZ & elsewhere usually mean very weak sanctions. It has often been argued if you want to toughen up on wildlife crimes, you actually need to change the [B]minimum[/B] sentence rather than the maximum.
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June 11, 2010 9:45am
Pete George

From the Press:-

De Spa’s father, Paul de Spa, said last night that he and his family had attended the protest but he did not want to comment on what happened.

“Yes, I work for ECan and I am a political person, but this isn’t actually about that, this is about me as a dad. I’m really just in dad mode.

Could be quite an embarrassed dad (I hope so).

Seems like he was a possibility on the Green list in 2008.

10. Paul de Spa [WITHDRAWN] – http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/04/green_party_list.html

Panel beating is such a waste of resources, especially when it was totally unnecessary.
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June 11, 2010 9:51am
Luc Hansen

The fantasists (I’m thinking of Mad MIke -MikeNZ – here), the anti-Arab racists – most – and the Islamophobes – Hi Kris K- on here have had a field day since the attack and massacre on the Mavi Marmara while the other side were held incommunicado for a number of days.

But that time is coming to an end. Reports from senior journalists and smuggled coverage from those on board, in defiance of the fanatical mission by the Israeli commandos to find ALL electronic coverage of the event, is now coming into the public domain. It will not be a good look for Israel, but it will explain why Israel won’t submit to an international inquiry.

From what I can piece together so far, the initial attack on the Mavi Marmara was undertaken by commandos in Zodiacs who, after firing stun and tear gas grenades onto the ship were driven back by the Turks on board using as weapons chair legs or whatever was available. Pretty embarrassing for those highly touted commandos, methinks.

But commandos don’t have an appreciation of the value of successful resistance, so the attack choppers were deployed and the undoubtedly highly trained, highly religious folk on the choppers calmly picked off their targets – any male in their sights, the females having been sent down below.

The following links will provide useful information- or should that be counter information – for those who somehow think that killing unarmed civilians in international waters is all kosher.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/10/exclusive_journalist_smuggles_out_video_of

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/9/framing_the_narrative_israeli_commandos_seizes

Somehow, I don’t think there is much bravery attached to the slaughter of unarmed civilians, aged from 19 to 60. The IDF is not what it used to be.

And that’s part of the problem. Bibi lost his brother in the Entebbe raid in 1976, and he personally authorised the failed (with bigtime embarrassment for Bibi) mission to kill Khalid Meshaal (Hamas chief) in his first turn as PM. There is no doubt that Bibi gave his assent to the aggressive, brutal and ultimately murderous tactics employed by the IDF on the flotilla.

People ask why the Mavi Marmara was the only boat where it turned violent. The short answer is that it wasn’t – see the links above – but the other reason is that the Mavi Marmara was the Turkish ship. Turks will fight. It’s interesting to me that in recent weeks two people separately, one a ME scholar, and the other a former US ambassador in an interview with Kathryn Ryan, both said, Turks will fight (remember Gallipoli?). But at the end of the day, it’s a fight between sticks and M16s and only one side is going to win.

I predict the IDF commandos will brush up on their crowd control techniques.

As an aside, the SMH senior reporter on board the “Challenger” reported that his “Israeli” captors spoke with an Aussie twang and knew exactly who he was and which rag he worked for.

And the risible Mark Regev tries so hard to hide his Australian accent – deluded fool! He is not fooling me!

Finally, I remind readers that the truth, damning as it will be for Israel, is coming out.
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June 11, 2010 10:04am
Luc Hansen

Put it away

Over half the population of Iran is under 15 years of age.

Are these the evil loons you are referring to?
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June 11, 2010 10:11am
Pauleastbay

RE: Shane Jones – quite alot of porn watching over it is actually a lot- 50 movies I have read somewhere – who cares except the use of public funds but

He said in the paper this morning that his wife went crook- it could have been worse he might have had a rent a wife to go along with the rent a movie or did he??
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June 11, 2010 10:40am
virtualmark

Luc, a few simple questions:

1. Do you think that repeated blows to the head with a metal bar can be fatal? Yes or No.

2. What do you think an armed NZ Police officer would do if confronted with a mob of people advancing on them aggressively with metal bars? (and it might pay to think about what happened to Stephen Bellingham and Steven Wallace)
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June 11, 2010 10:47am
RightNow

Clayton Cosgrove next in line for demotion:

… Mr Cosgrove bought a $1,674 suit on his Ministerial credit card after losing his luggage. He also spent $56 on a tie and $61 on a shirt and socks to go with his new suit. Records show an insurance claim was pending though there is no indication this was reimbursed.

On the same trip, Mr Cosgrove spent $712 on a taxi, apparently for a five-hour sight-seeing trip.

In preparation, Mr Cosgrove had bought a $265 cabin luggage bag from upmarket Wellington Department store Kirckaldie and Stains and a NZ$56 Montreal Lonely Planet book from Borders in Montreal.
In 2007, he travelled to Guyana to attend the Commonwealth Finance Ministers Meeting and back via New York and Washington DC.
Records also show $115,752.73 worth of expenses on his Ministerial credit card on this trip. He was accompanied again by his wife and an advisor.

Again Mr Cosgrove lost his luggage and was forced to buy more on his Ministerial credit card. He clocked up $749 on his card to replace it. This was also to be covered by insurance.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3801336/More-MPs-spending-examined

This ‘lost my luggage and had to buy replacement clothes’ thing seems a frequent theme, sounds like a popular scam to me.

I hope spouses travelling on the taxpayer gets canned pronto. Either they pay their own way or they don’t go, it’s a work trip not a family holiday.
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June 11, 2010 10:58am
Luc Hansen

VM

If you had followed the links, you would have heard from a senior ie mature SMH journalist tasered for the heinous sin of holding a camera.

What part of this equation don’t you understand:

International waters, unarmed, attempting to break an illegal siege, attacked in the dead of night with stun grenades and tear gas and they resisted.

The activists are heroes, on a par with the highly lauded French resistance.

Keith Abbot is an arsehole. Apologies to arseholes.
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June 11, 2010 11:01am
krazykiwi

Over half the population of Iran is under 15 years of age. Are these the evil loons you are referring to?

They mightn’t have started out that way, but teaching young, impressionable Iranian kids the value in suicide bombing by animated cartoon, will probably have pushed them in the ‘evil loon’ direction. This one screened at 8am of 28th October, 2005.
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June 11, 2010 11:09am
Pauleastbay

Luc

You are a scum sucking bottom dweller. The french resistance fought for and saved many allied lives during WWII . They were fighting againt Nazisim. To compare them with terrorists is shit,

You are vile my friend and I try hard to keep a sense of humour with most things read here but, what I do know if the terrorists ever got any semblance of power here, arseholes like you will be first up against the wall.
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June 11, 2010 11:13am
stephen

They are not Dumb, this is common sense as business people use these type of cards all the time

Business people don’t always do so well either. Their companies just don’t publicise it – why would they?
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June 11, 2010 11:22am
virtualmark

Luc,

Why don’t you ever answer the question posed to you? I can only assume it’s because any honest response wouldn’t support your own prejudices.

Another simple question.

3. Why is the Israeli blockade of Gaza illegal? I believe you’re a lawyer by training right? So, with reference to international law, why is it illegal?

For sure I recognise that you badly want it to be illegal. But I would be very surprised if a sophisticated sovereign state got an important matter of international law like that wrong. But I am genuinely open to it being shown that’s the case, I’m just waiting for someone to roll out proof rather than allegation. So, over to you, please address the questions (all 3).
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June 11, 2010 11:27am
Kris K

Luc Hansen 10:11 am,

Put it away
Over half the population of Iran is under 15 years of age.
Are these the evil loons you are referring to?

So, Luc, how far away is it till your immigration application to Iran is approved?
And then how long after that till you and you family actually get on the plane and leave for Iran?
I can just see you being such a good influence on all those under 15 year old Iranians.

And regarding your learning of the Arabic language, here’s a phrase to get you started off; “Allahu Akbar” – I’m not sure what it means, but I understand it’s important to say it with conviction; remember, others around you will be monitoring the level of your dedication to the cause.

And good luck, I suspect you’ll need it.

PS Here’s another phrase that just came to mind, and which you can add to your arsenal, “Jews are monkeys and pigs” – you’ll need to translate it into Arabic, sorry ’bout that. And make sure you don’t visit Israel prior to getting to Iran; I hear having an Israeli stamp in your passport is not a good look when you go through Iranian customs. Once again, good luck!
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June 11, 2010 11:31am
philu

come off it pauleastbay…

one persons’ freedom-fighter…

..is another persons; terrorist…

..how can you not see/understand/nuance that..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 11:33am
rouppe

Personally I believe that Israel and the various Arab nations (Iran/Syria/Jordan/Egypt) and Palestinians all have to forgo things important to them before peace will fall over the area. Notwithstanding that:

Over half the population of Iran is under 15 years of age.

Are these the evil loons you are referring to?

Age is of no consequence. I can’t find a reference to the photo now but there was a protest in Auckland over the Israeli raid. in it is a 10-year-old boy front and centre stomping on the burning flag. At that age children are so impressionable as to be able to easily be convinced to do evil things. This is in fact how the cycle of hatred and indoctrination starts – with parents bringing their kids to events such as this.

My parents were teenagers in The Netherlands during WW2. My mothers family was kicked out of their home in Arnhem so it could serve as a German army billet. When they returned it had been looted and half destroyed. They lived under a regime that sent Jews to their deaths. Did they preach to me and my siblings a message of hate for Germans? Never.
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June 11, 2010 11:36am
philu

“..“Allahu Akbar” – I’m not sure what it means, ..”

it means ‘god is great’…

got any arguments with that..?

..oh follower of christian fascism..?

(i dunno about you…reader….i’m having an irony-o.d here..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 11:36am
krazykiwi

‘Follow the Islamic way to save the world,’ Prince Charles urges environmentalists

Tight with James Lovelock(Gaia worshiper), Maurice Strong(IPCC strongman) and Al Gore(Climate fraudster).. and our future King. No thanks.
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June 11, 2010 11:45am
virtualmark

I’m with Philu (!)

Kris, you’re a nutter whose warped and intolerant worldview is exactly the mirror of those Islamists you’re so quick to foam at the mouth about. Quotes like:

… slide, click …
If it was a choice between my family and some murderous scum Islamist, then I know which way the dice would roll … and that’s the truth of the matter.
There is certainly such a thing as a just war
The hatred is quite palpable; and really causes one to question just how accurate is the claim by [Kris K that his] is the “Religion of Peace” – the ‘Religion of Hate and Deception’ seems more appropriate.

Are every bit as unhinged as the people you rail against. And you do Christianity a dis-service with your warped hell, fire & brimstone, kill the infidels act.
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June 11, 2010 11:48am
RightNow

Can someone under 15 be an evil loon? I guess it depends on your point of view…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1285508/Taliban-execute-boy-seven-accused-spy.html
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June 11, 2010 11:59am
side show bob

Chicken Little, thanks.
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June 11, 2010 12:11pm
Fletch

Now “Killing New Zealand’s most venomous spider [katipo] could now earn culprits jail time [1 year] or a $100,000 fine under changes to the law.” – stuff.co – Yvette

Tell you what – if I see a Katipo spider crawling across the carpet in my house, I’m killing the bastard. WTF is wrong with these people in Govt? Do they have no common sense?
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June 11, 2010 12:20pm
Chthoniid

Umm… *why* would you see a katipo on your house carpet? Do you live on the beach margins of one of the few beaches left that still have Katipos?

It’s a species that has been in decline for decades.
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June 11, 2010 12:31pm
Murray

Where do you left wing knobs stand on Iran now?

Someone get out the popcorn while we watch the leftwing dance of bullshit and distraction.
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June 11, 2010 12:31pm
Sonny Blount

Allahu Akbar translates as bye-bye in this case:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyFiLWcVBuI

Love this video.
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June 11, 2010 12:36pm
virtualmark

Luc, a few more questions (and hey, still waiting for answers to the first 3):

4. Do you support equal rights for women? Yes or no.

5. If so, what is your view on the place and rights of women in Islamic-based societies such as Gaza, the West Bank and Iran? For example, what do you think of honour killings? And of the fact that Palestinian law gives a reduced punishment for honour killings vs murder? What do you think about the compulsory wearing of the chador in Iran, whether the woman wants to wear it or not?

I’m intrigued by the left-leaning support of Islamic societies when many of the cultural realities of those societies are 180 degrees counter to the personal freedoms and liberties the left has fought so hard for. Is it just that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, no matter how distasteful they are?

Which is your most strongly held belief? The rights of women to equal treatment or the recognition of Islamic values?

Answers please.
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June 11, 2010 12:42pm
krazykiwi

@virtualmark – I’ve tried this approach with Luc. If you get a response it will be a point-by-point obfusacation.
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June 11, 2010 12:46pm
Poliwatch

I have just been thinking about Shane Jones movie habits. Wikipedia states
“Jones held a number of senior roles in the public sector, being best known for his work as chairman of the Waitangi Fisheries Commission. He also worked for the Ministry for the Environment and the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet.”

Leopards don’t usually change their spots so I would assume that he has been charging up his movie habits up to the taxpayer for years.

Anyone know?
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June 11, 2010 12:50pm
virtualmark

Yeah, I’m waiting to see …
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June 11, 2010 12:51pm
maurieo

If a self employed person used their company credit card to buy personal items such as flowers, films etc. and subsequently classified them as business expenses which ultimately lead to them and their company paying less tax they would face serious consequences if they were subsequently audited by the Inland Revenue Department and these irregularities were discovered. They could probably be prosecuted and have to pay penalty tax wether or not the they did it on purpose or by mistake or through ignorance. They would most certainly not be asked to just pay the money back and may also have to pay court costs and the costs associated with recovering the money. There would most certainly be consequences.
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June 11, 2010 12:51pm
Fletch

Chthoniid – I probably wouldn’t see one on the carpet, I admit, but if I did I would kill it. If it was outside, probably not.
The next thing you know, the Conservation Dept will be starting a Katipo breeding programme. NZ is one of the few countries in the world with (hardly) any poisonous snakes and spiders. Let’s keep it that way. I, for one, would not be at all concerned if the Katipo became extinct.
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June 11, 2010 12:54pm
AlphaKiwi

@krazykiwi

Gotta agree with you on this one. No way I want Charles to become our King. Let’s dump the monarchy on Elizabeth II’s death.
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June 11, 2010 12:56pm
Kris K

phool 11:36 am,

“..“Allahu Akbar” – I’m not sure what it means, ..”

it means ‘god is great’…

Actually, Phool, I was being facetious, I know exactly what it means; “Allahu Akbar” means ‘Allah is greater’, not ‘greatest’, and what exactly is Allah meant to be greater than? – the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; the Judeo-Christain God, the God of the Bible.

Mohammed could never quite get over his inferiority complex that his choice of Allah; one of 300 gods of pre Islamic Arabia, the god he chose to elevate to create his monotheistic religion, could never quite measure up to the God of the Christians and Jews.

And when the Islamists come for you, Phool, that’s what they’ll scream while they sever your head and hold it aloft – all to the glory of their satanic god Allah. In direct contrast to the Judeo-Christian God who died for your sins. You guys really don’t know which side your bread is buttered, do you!?
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June 11, 2010 1:20pm
philu

quite a strange little world you must live in there…eh..?

(do you have dreams/nightmares about this stuff..?..

..y;know…’islamists’ coming to cut your head off..?

at what stage of the dream/nightmare do you wake up..?..

..in a cold sweat..?..just as the blade falls..?)

(the irony-o.d. is still working its’ way thru..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 1:38pm
Put it away

LUC – “Over half the population of Iran is under 15 years of age. Are these the evil loons you are referring to? ”

Luc – well if those under fifteens are working for the military, government, nuclear factories, terrorist training centres, and other similar likely bombing targets, then that’s rather unfortunate for them. But I suspect there’s not that many children employed in the regime’s power structure. Do you?
And I see you dishonestly left off the “oppressive” when you quoted my “opressive evil loons”, to hide the fact that I’m obviously referring to the regime. Nothing too low for you to stoop to eh Luc ?
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June 11, 2010 1:43pm
Pete George

The Christian and Muslim women joined forces to create Women of Liberia Mass Action for Peace.
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June 11, 2010 1:48pm
Put it away

PhailUre, that sounds more like your dreams about the WNZ benefit fraud division
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June 11, 2010 1:48pm
starboard

Records also show $115,752.73 worth of expenses on his Ministerial credit card on this trip

ya what !!!??? Cosgrove spent $115752.73 on his credit card whilst away on one trip !! you gota be fucken kidden!
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June 11, 2010 1:52pm
Lucia Maria

I agree with Fletch. What is wrong with people in Government?

We should really be trying to make the katipo extinct, rather than elevating it to the status of something that must be protected at all costs.
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June 11, 2010 1:58pm
philu

i’ll betcha they are all regretting not doing this a year ago..when the british did..

did they think if they denied/stalled the inevitable..

..that it would just go away..?

..this must be the right time for a major clean-out/generational change in labour..surely..?

and national aren’t off the hook…

i mean…tim ‘hic!’ groser…?

phil(woar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 1:59pm
Kris K

virtualmark 11:48 am,

I’m with Philu (!)

Well there’s you first mistake!

Kris, you’re a nutter whose warped and intolerant worldview is exactly the mirror of those Islamists you’re so quick to foam at the mouth about. Quotes like:

… slide, click …
If it was a choice between my family and some murderous scum Islamist, then I know which way the dice would roll … and that’s the truth of the matter.
There is certainly such a thing as a just war
The hatred is quite palpable; and really causes one to question just how accurate is the claim by Islam that it is the “Religion of Peace” – the ‘Religion of Hate and Deception’ seems more appropriate.

Are every bit as unhinged as the people you rail against. And you do Christianity a dis-service with your warped hell, fire & brimstone, kill the infidels act.

There’s a SLIGHT difference between defending you family/country against an evil philosophy like Islam by using force, and the Islamists’ barbarity and their willingness to murder, terrorise, torture, disembowel, use women and children as human shields, sexually mutilate their own women, strap explosives to their own children, film the severing of the heads of their victims … Do I really need to go on!?

This is the reality of what Israel confronts every day in its interactions with those that follow the ‘Religion of Peace’. And this is the reality that the Islamists, in accordance with the Koran and as exemplified by Mohammed, want to bring to the rest of the world: A world under Sharia law; a world in submission to the Islamic god Allah; a world ruled by a barbaric and intolerant and EVIL system of belief.

And just as Israel has to struggle to maintain its existence in light of such an ongoing onslaught, so too will/does the West need to resist this ongoing push, by WHATEVER means, to Islamise the rest of the globe.
This really is a stuggle to the death, a war, and having talkfests about peace accords, etc with Islamic nations is beyond a joke, and ignores the reality of the aims and intents of Islam.

And like I’ve said before; trying to appease Islam will be about as effective as Chamberlain’s attempt to appease Hitler pre WWII.

The following is what God says to those who, essentially, side with the Islamists, and come against the nation of Israel, and her capital city, Jersualem. A stark warning to those who ignore the threat that is Islam, and who align themselves with her purposes and aims:

Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Choose ye now whose side you are on!
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June 11, 2010 2:02pm
Pete George

Choose ye now whose side you are on!

Not on the side of religious nutters.
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June 11, 2010 2:08pm
philu

yeah but..!..

..d’ya have the dreams/nightmares..?

..at night as well…?

(can we call you ‘the boy who cried ‘islam..!’..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 2:08pm
billyborker

Kris, i’ve got another book that says there was already a nuclear war in the ME and Russia won.

I think there’s as much truth in my book as in yours.
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June 11, 2010 2:09pm
philu

btw..kk…

how do you feel about fitting so perfectly..

..the model/profile of the christian fascist..?

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/the-christian-fascists-are-growing-stronger/

“..They are creating a theocratic state based on “biblical law,” … and shutting out all those they define as the enemy.

This movement, veering closer and closer to traditional fascism … seeks to force a recalcitrant world to submit before an imperial America.

It champions the eradication of social deviants, beginning with homosexuals, and moving on to immigrants, secular humanists, feminists, Jews, Muslims…

… and those they dismiss as “nominal Christians”—meaning Christians who do not embrace their perverted and heretical interpretation of the Bible.

Those who defy the mass movement are condemned as posing a threat to the health and hygiene of the country and the family.

All will be purged.

The followers of deviant faiths, from Judaism to Islam, must be converted or repressed.

The deviant media, the deviant public schools, the deviant entertainment industry, the deviant secular humanist government and judiciary and the deviant churches will be reformed or closed.

There will be a relentless promotion of Christian “values,” …

that’s you..isn’t it..?

and a tidy thumbnail-sketch of the hatreds you peddle…

..eh..?…

.kk…?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 2:14pm
Kris K

IV2’s link to an excellent cartoon on the recent revelations of MP’s expenditure faux pas:

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/06/emmersons-excellent-interpretation.html
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June 11, 2010 2:18pm
billyborker

Meanwhile, as kiwis bluster about who spent what (and most of it was repaid anyway) Australai just keeps on widening the wages gap with us.

Come on Hone Key, show us your plan to close the gap.

aUSTRALIA CREATES ONe NEW JOB EVERY 30 SECFONDS WHILE THE BEST kEY CAN DO IS 5 KILOMETRES OF BIKE TRACK!

http://www.theage.com.au/business/employment-setting-fast-pace-30-seconds-one-job-20100610-y0hq.html
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June 11, 2010 2:25pm
Pete George

KK or RB Phil. Scary.
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June 11, 2010 2:29pm
virtualmark

Kris. Reality check. There are no Islamists coming for you. There is no Islamist horde looming over the horizon to behead you or Philu.

Yes, there are militant islamists. In other countries. Pakistan. Afghanistan. Yemen. Somalia. Not New Zealand. If you think there are any in New Zealand then I recommend you take your evidence to the Police.

Neither is New Zealand under any sort of imminent invasion from Islamists, Chinese hordes, Mongolians, pink elephants or green men from outer space. It is all in your head.

I am not trying to appease Islamists. But I have a pragmatic and balanced view of where they operate and just how many of them there are, and how much support they have even in their own strongholds. Creating overblown bogey-men is not helpful. And indulging in how you will protect us all from their evil nefarious plans is the sort of fantasy I’d expect from a 12 year old.
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June 11, 2010 2:38pm
krazykiwi

Yes, there are militant islamists. In other countries. Not New Zealand

@virtualmark – Sorry don’t buy that. There is no daily evidence of terrorist activity (bombs, body parts etc), but my guess is that are militants present in NZ. After all, their religion does call for a global Caliphate, and we’re on the menu however far out the dining may look to be commence.
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June 11, 2010 2:52pm
cha

He’s not the only one VM, 205 pages of American theocracy and 45 pages of Theocratic hatred.
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June 11, 2010 2:54pm
virtualmark

krazykiwi. I would accept that there are individual nutcases with Islamist tendencies in New Zealand. I would expect there are even Islamists in New Zealand who have been through “training” in Islamist camps in places like Indonesia, the Phillipines, Afghanistan etc.

But. I would also say that the Muslim establishment here is much more … rational. And I see no evidence that the local Muslim community would support Islamist cells, that they would not alert the Police to militant behaviour etc.

As for the global Caliphate. The classical Islamist focus (for example, Al Qaeda) is to restore the Caliphate, across it’s historic extent through Turkey and the Middle East. Their main focus is, in their terms, to rid the Middle East of what they see as corrupt regimes propped up by the West (think Saudi royal family for example). Their goal in attacking the West (read the USA and Europe) is to try to demonstrate the ineffectiveness of those Western regimes, and their inability to prop up those corrupt regimes.

I have no reason to believe that they seriously are planning militant attacks in New Zealand. That they have any real capability to pull that off. That even if they were/could that they are any more than isolated disaffected individuals.

For sure, even globally there are nowhere near enough militant Islamists with anything like the required amount of support and equipment to subjugate a country as big and populated as New Zealand. If Kris K and others think it’s just a matter of time before the Islamists impose Sharia law in New Zealand then frankly they are several sandwiches short of a picnic.
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June 11, 2010 3:02pm
philu

gee..!..that big lie john banks told about len brown has really blown back in his face..eh..?

he spent some fifty grand on a mailout to 80,000 auckland households…

..where he claimed that brown..as mayor…had brought in high rates increases…

..whereas..as it turns out…those specified rate-rises occurred under the previous mayor of manukau..

..since brown has been mayor..

..rate rises have been no higher than the rate of inflation…

oo-err..!..eh..?

fifty grand…to get a rep as a dirty-player..who tells lies about his opponent…

..good one..!..einsteins..!

..brace yrselves for yet another poll-rating drop..eh..?

..does anyone else smell a boag/bhatnagar..?..

…gone terribly terribly wrong…?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 3:13pm
cha

And a review of A Mosque In Munich, a book by Ian Johnson about the origins of Islamic militancy.
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June 11, 2010 3:15pm
Chthoniid

It may be germane to point out that even in medieval times, there were many competing caliphates from Andalusia, across the Maghrib and into Khurasan. The Fatimid (Shi’ite) caliphate in Egypt cooperated at times with the Crusader states in the Outremer.

By the time the Seljuqs arrived in the ME after their victory at Dandanqan, the largest of these- the Abbasid Sunni caliphate was already largely a shell. By 1258 when the Mongols captured Baghdad the caliphate was for most practical purposes. More importantly, Mongol invasions forever broke the political cohesiveness of the NE.

The Iranian provinces- in Khurasan etc- have been lost to the “Eastern” Caliphate ever since. The Ilkhanids- and their Persian successors- were Shi’ites. Much of the Islamic core states of Iraq, the Jibal & Syria remained Sunni.

There has not been a credible attempt to unify these territories into one Islamic state since the Seljuqs disappeared from history.
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June 11, 2010 3:23pm
Chthoniid

@Lucia Maria

We should really be trying to make the katipo extinct, rather than elevating it to the status of something that must be protected at all costs.

Umm…why? It’s a small spider, generally quite inoffensive and doesn’t live in the same range as people. It doesn’t come into your home. All it wants is a little strip of dunes by the edge of a beach.

There’s been no records of anyone dying from a katipo bite, it’s not particularly venomous for a Latrodectan. It takes a lot to provoke it.

If you want to save people from death from animal attack, then the appropriate policy would be to wipe out all the honey-bees in NZ. Heck, shoot all the horses.

Is it appropriate to base wildlife policies on irrational fears and ignorance about risks?
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June 11, 2010 3:36pm
Fletch

Chthoniid, I’m not saying we should form lynch groups, go round up all the Katipos and hang them. But if one is hanging around your home, or the camping ground etc, I think we should be free to kill it. I mean, if they bite you it is a danger to you.
I bet if the conservation minister saw a spider crawling across the carpet, he/she would kill it.
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June 11, 2010 3:43pm
Kris K

MikeNZ 9:35 am,

http://times.cluster.newsint.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7145665.ece

This piece credits Iran with a 3 -0 win over Israel in the propaganda war.
Whether that is correct or not I don’t know, what I do know is Israel still exists and until that isn’t so Iran and Islam hasn’t won.

The next round is nullifying Israel’s Nukes either by having their own or by getting international condenation to cancel them.

Indeed, Mike.
And picking up the article you linked to above:

Propaganda war latest: Tehran 3 Israel 0

Iran’s tactic of portraying its enemy as facing inevitable destruction is proving successful

As Iran’s leadership prepares to dispatch a Red Crescent flotilla to break Israel’s blockade of Gaza, its propaganda organs are spreading one message throughout the Muslim world: the Jewish state, branded by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as “the Zionist stain of shame”, is heading for its inevitable destruction.

An Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman said of these aid ships that “if this symbolic campaign continues, it will result in the surrender of the Zionist regime, which will certainly be one of its biggest defeats”.

Over the past three years, Iran’s Khomeinist regime has succeeded in changing the traditional perception of Israel. Instead of Israel being the almost invincible enemy that crushed the Arabs in the Yom Kippur War and the Six Day War, it is now portrayed as a waning power, a small and vulnerable enclave that, having lost the support of its powerful protector, the United States, is facing the might of a resurgent Muslim world under Tehran’s leadership.

This message is pumped out through Iranian satellite television stations, such as the Arab language al-Alam News Network. Tehran also publishes scores of magazines and books that are freely distributed throughout the Muslim world. Muslim opinion-formers are regularly invited to Iran for seminars on the pan- Islamic campaign to accelerate “the inevitable end of Israel”, a phrase repeatedly used by Iran’s official media. Mr Ahmadinejad has visited more than two dozen Muslim countries to propagate this new anti-Israel strategy.

While the Islamic world may be divided on some things, ONE aim it is united on is ‘the destruction of Israel’. No doubt Ahmadinejad got agreeance from those more than two dozen Muslim countries. When you see the once tolerant Muslim nation of Turkey starting to revert back to fundamentalist Islam in its attitude towards Israel you know the writing’s on the wall.

To underline this new image of Israel, the Tehran propaganda machine has replaced footage of poor Palestinians crushed by “Zionists” with that of the growing arsenal of rockets that Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza have built up for what President Ahmadinejad calls “the final assault on the Zionist state”. The Jew, previously depicted as aggressive and domineering, is presented as cowardly. The mullahs in Friday sermons in Iran now claim such things as “the Jew runs away at the first sight of blood”.

Let the deception continue – just on a different tack now, that’s all.

The Tehran regime’s mouthpieces in the media and universities emphasise the cooling of US-Israel relations under Barack Obama and insist that Washington has realised that its support for Israel has become too costly. Perhaps the most recent significant diplomatic success scored by Tehran came last month when a UN conference called by President Obama to set the world on the road to nuclear disarmament failed to call on Iran to stop its nuclear programme. Instead, it called for a nuclear-free Middle East, thus linking Israel’s reported nucear weapons to Iran’s controversial programme.

Notice the US and UN implied demonising of Israel by making this a Middle East issue, and therefore including Israel, but not mentioning Iran’s aims to become a nuclear armed nation. Once again this highlights that Obama is becoming increasingly anti-Israel; and one must ask whether at the root of it he is actually anti-Semitic?

Tehran has succeeded in dragging non-Arab states, notably Turkey, a former ally of Israel, and Malaysia into conflict with Israel, and is working on others, especially Pakistan and Indonesia, in the hope of creating a pan-Islamic front. The Turkish Prime Minister visited Iran last month to seal a nuclear deal.

Tehran has other reasons to be happy with its strategy of confrontation. It has ended the Israeli-Syrian peace talks by threatening to withdraw its substantial economic support for President Assad’s increasingly fragile regime. Tehran’s bullying has also forced Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates to stop normalising relations with Israel.
[cont]

You really do sense that the Islamic world is unifying in its aim to eliminate Israel; no doubt to be followed by the eliminating of every last Jew, and the Islamisation of the rest of the non-Muslim world.

I believe the world will become increasingly polarised; and will be divided into a) those who support Israel, and b) those who come against and condemn Israel. We can see this playing out before our very eyes as we look at what is happening in Europe and the US in regards to what is surely to become official policy regarding Israel; her right to defend herself, and even her very right to exist.

Those that come against Israel will find themselves coming against the Judeo-Christian God; the God of the Bible, and they shall indeed “be cut in pieces”. This is a warning to the US and all those other world governments that choose to come against Israel – as I said before:

Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

And

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee [to Israel through Abraham], and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Those that bless Israel shall be blessed, and those that curse Israel shall be cursed [Mt 25]:
A dire warning to those that choose to become the enemies of Israel.
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June 11, 2010 3:43pm
Kris K

virtualmark 3:02 pm,

If Kris K and others think it’s just a matter of time before the Islamists impose Sharia law in New Zealand then frankly they are several sandwiches short of a picnic.

And no doubt you will continue to hold that view … right up to the time it actually happens – but by then it will be too late.
One only needs to look at what is happening in Europe and the UK, regarding them becoming increasingly Islamified, to see the fallacy in the argument that it could never happen here in good ol’ New Zealand. The term “famous last words” comes to mind. I mean if you really want to talk about sandwiches and picnics perhaps you should look in your own hamper!?
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June 11, 2010 4:00pm
Pete George

Jeezuz, yet another try-hard self-fulfilling prophet.
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June 11, 2010 4:00pm
grumpyoldhori

Militant Muslims helping to try and steal passports then running away, whoops, wrong religion.
But, it is amusing the numbers of extreme right wing types who would give a bloke born in NZ a pass on an act of treason.

I notice some Israelis are planning to sail a flotilla to Turkey, should the Turks do a bit of pay back by shooting a few ?
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June 11, 2010 4:12pm
Kris K

Pete George 4:00 pm,

Jeezuz, yet another try-hard self-fulfilling prophet.

Correction, Pete, Jeezuz [sic] was much more than a mere phrophet – but indeed much (read that ALL) of what He said will be fulfilled. So I guess in at least that sense you got the “self-fulfilling” bit right.
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June 11, 2010 4:13pm
MikeNZ

Go for it Kris.
No to Dhimmitude even in our minds/thinking

For Dave a haiku

Never surrender at all.
Outlaw Sharia Law
One law for all.
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June 11, 2010 4:25pm
philu

you want some christ-teachings there..?..kk..?

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/and-jesus-said-choke-on-a-chicken-bone-and-die/

“..If you care to witness Jesus’ words untouched, read this from the Dead Sea Scrolls (long hidden by the Roman Catholic Church) ..

.. written in Jesus’ native language .. and written in his time.

Probably written by the man himself.

Don’t let corpse-munchers edit history with their, “My god says it’s cool to murder” shit!

Set the “I got an excuse for everything” blood-suckers straight with this nugget:

“It was said to them of old time, ‘Honor thy Heavenly Father and thy Earthly Mother, and do their commandments, that thy days may be long upon the earth.’

And next afterward was given this commandment, ‘Thou shalt not kill,’ ..

.. for life is given to all by God .. and that which God has given .. let not man take away.

For I tell you truly, from one Mother proceeds all that lives upon the earth.

Therefore, he who kills, kills his brother.

And from him will the Earthly Mother turn away .. and will pluck from him her quickening breasts.

And he will be shunned by her angels .. and Satan will have his dwelling in his body.

And the flesh of slain beasts in his body will become his own tomb.

For I tell you truly .. he who kills .. kills himself .. and whoso eats the flesh of slain beasts .. eats of the body of death.

For in his blood every drop of their blood turns to poison; ..

..in his breath their breath to stink; ..

..in his flesh their flesh to boils;

.. in his bones their bones to chalk; ..

.. in his bowels their bowels to decay; ..

.. in his eyes their eyes to scales; ..

.. in his ears their ears to waxy issue.

And their death will become his death.

For only in the service of your Heavenly Father are your debts of seven years forgiven in seven clays.

But Satan forgives you nothing .. and you must pay him for all.

‘Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot; burning for burning, wound for wound; life for life, death for death.’

For the wages of sin is death.

Kill not .. neither eat the flesh of your innocent prey .. lest you become the slaves of Satan.

For that is the path of sufferings .. and it leads unto death.

But do the will of God .. that his angels may serve you on the way of life.

Obey, therefore, the words of God: ..

.. ‘Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to everything that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is breath of life ..

.. I give every green herb for meat.

But flesh, and the blood which quickens it, shall ye not eat.

And, surely, your spurting blood will I require, your blood wherein is your soul; I will require all slain beasts, and the souls of all slain men.

For I the Lord thy God am a God strong and jealous ..

.. visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; ..

.. and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me .. and keep my commandments.

Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength: this is the first and greatest commandment.’

And the second is like unto it: ‘Love thy neighbor as thyself’ ..

.. There is none other commandment greater than these.”

This passage is from: DEAD SEA SCROLLS—THE ESSENE GOSPEL OF PEACE, compared, edited, and translated by Edmond Bordeaux Szekely—

–purports to be a fragment (about 1/8 of the complete manuscript) of the ESSENE GOSPEL OF JOHN .. which details the healing works of Jesus.

What makes this document unique is that it is Szekely’s direct translation of the original text ..

.. which was discovered in the Vatican Library in Aramaic .. and which is in the Royal Library of the Hapsburgs in Old Slavonic.

The Aramaic text dates from the 1st century, while the Old Slavonic version is a literal translation of the former.

The Gospel is said to have traveled from Palestine into the heart of Asia and then into the hands of the Nestorian priests ..

.. who safeguarded it through the ages…”

there ya go..!

chew on that..!

oh christian-fascist-one..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 4:29pm
Pete George

I wasn’t referring to that one Kris, rather to the millions of others who try hard in hope. Maybe it should be self-foolfilling.
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June 11, 2010 4:37pm
virtualmark

Kris K …

And no doubt you will continue to hold that view … right up to the time it actually happens – but by then it will be too late.
One only needs to look at what is happening in Europe and the UK, regarding them becoming increasingly Islamified, to see the fallacy in the argument that it could never happen here in good ol’ New Zealand

Are Europe and the UK really becoming increasingly Islamified? Certainly they have large (non-indigeneous) Muslim communities. And they’ve had problems with Muslim hotheads. Some of those hotheads have fallen under the thrall of Islamists and have committed horrific offences.

But you’re probably talking less than 10,000 extreme Islamists across the whole of Europe. Over time – and I’m talking a generation or two here – who is more likely to become assimilated … the more extreme muslims become Europeanised? Or the Europeans become Islamified?

The reality – and this is the reality that Al Qaeda faces even in Arab countries – is that Islamists do not and cannot offer a life that their people aspire to. Certainly they can offer a very puritanical religious environment. But they can’t offer the economic future that people want. They can’t satisfy people’s innate desire for freedom and individuality, and so on and so on.

So I can’t for the life of me see any rational reasonable basis for how Islamists could gain control of a Western country like New Zealand.

So yes. You are several sandwiches and a ginger beer short of a picnic. Drop the nonsensical bogey man stuff. Quit the puerile hell, fire & condemnation. Go outside and breath through your nose for your while.
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June 11, 2010 4:40pm
RightNow

Jewish suicide bombers in the news again I see, whoops, wrong religion.

I note a glaring lack of compassion from the left for the plight of the Kurds in Turkey.
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June 11, 2010 4:40pm
virtualmark

F#*k Phil, don’t you start.

If you care to witness Jesus’ words untouched
Probably written by the man himself
purports to be a fragment … of the ESSENE GOSPEL OF JOHN
is said to have traveled from Palestine into the heart of Asia

That’s a lot of probably and purports mate. Perhaps more accurately we could describe it as an Aramaic document of uncertain authorship and certainly not referenced or attested to by contemporaneous sources. It’s likely got as much religious relevance as a Harcourt’s brochure has to today’s church.
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June 11, 2010 4:43pm
billyborker

RightNow (882) Says:

June 11th, 2010 at 4:40 pm
Jewish suicide bombers in the news again I see, whoops, wrong religion.

I note a glaring lack of compassion from the left for the plight of the Kurds in Turkey.

Not sure I see you showing compassion for Kurds, either, just a cynical attempt to use them.

Where is the Right’s compassion for the Kurds in Iraq? Left them to hang out to dry after Bush used them against Hussein. Still, that’s nothinmg compared to the gassing Churchill gave them, is it?
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June 11, 2010 4:45pm
philu

did you miss this bit…?…

“..What makes this document unique is that it is Szekely’s direct translation of the original text ..

.. which was discovered in the Vatican Library in Aramaic .. and which is in the Royal Library of the Hapsburgs in Old Slavonic.

The Aramaic text dates from the 1st century, while the Old Slavonic version is a literal translation of the former.

The Gospel is said to have traveled from Palestine into the heart of Asia and then into the hands of the Nestorian priests ..

.. who safeguarded it through the ages…”

tho’ i agree with yr contention that carnivorous hate-merchants like kk..

..are a hell of a long way away from these teachings..

(and anyway..he started it..!..)

(and it’s the jesus-arrow in my vegan-quiver..eh..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 4:48pm
RightNow

Now you’re getting it billy!
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June 11, 2010 4:48pm
Put it away

Phool you really are desperate if you think anything in the dead sea scrolls can be attributed to anyone.
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June 11, 2010 4:56pm
Pete George

Rightnow, there are a heap of peoples with plights. Why should every post here have to be accompanied by a list of everything else in the world that deserves compassion or criticism? You don’t do that.

I didn’t come across any sign of problems with Islam in Europe. All I heard was worries about the economic situations there. And how countries like Italy have such low birth rates now they rely on immigrant labour.
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June 11, 2010 4:58pm
RightNow

So Pete, do you think the Turks got involved with the flotilla out of genuine concern for the people of Gaza?
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June 11, 2010 5:04pm
virtualmark

Phil, I did get that. I’m happy to accept it’s an accurate translation of an actual Aramaic document. But what I’m saying is that it’s authorship, relevance and standing are inevitably clouded.
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June 11, 2010 5:04pm
Pete George

I’ve got no idea why the Turks got involved with the flotilla. There may have been some genuine concern, but I expect there were ulterior motives, there always is in political situations.

How much of Israel’s actions on Gaza are out of a genuine concern for the people (Palestinian or Israeli)?

If everyone got involved in everything due only to a genuine concern for the people the world would be quite different to what it is.
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June 11, 2010 5:14pm
philu

“…But what I’m saying is that it’s authorship, relevance and standing are inevitably clouded…”

whereas..?..the bible..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 5:19pm
Lucia Maria

Phil U,

There were a lot of heretic writings around even in the 1st century.

Doesn’t mean Jesus wrote it.

Don’t believe everything you read (or see in the movies).
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June 11, 2010 5:41pm
Luc Hansen

Virtualmark, I just never knew you cared so much about what I think! It’s good to see my little verse kept you guys going for the day.

I’m not an apologist for Iran or Islam, but it’s not hard to see the basic fallacy you guys fall into – that two wrongs ~~don’t~~ make a right. It’s a common tactic by Israel, for example, to defend its actions by saying someone else does it too. So what? That doesn’t make it right.

Anyway, to your questions:

1. Do you think that repeated blows to the head with a metal bar can be fatal? Yes or No.

Yes. But i presume you are talking about the attack on the flotilla by Israeli commandos, and you need to realise that those on the flotilla are actually the ones acting in self-defence. I posted above what I see as the likely true narrative. Storming a ship in international waters in the dead of night then shooting people dead from attack choppers is actually not conducive to a peaceful resolution. Neither are the gratuitous executions obviously carried by the aggressors who can only be described, apologies to Paul East Bay, as the scum of the earth. But what else can we expect from a nation that was founded in very successful terrorism?

2. What do you think an armed NZ Police officer would do if confronted with a mob of people advancing on them aggressively with metal bars? (and it might pay to think about what happened to Stephen Bellingham and Steven Wallace)

Again, you are reframing the incident to fit your own prejudices. This was a band of state-sanctioned thugs, acting against international law, who were doing the advancing. It’s difficult the to imagine the activists advancing very far on board a ship. Their ship, I might add.

3. Why is the Israeli blockade of Gaza illegal? I believe you’re a lawyer by training right? So, with reference to international law, why is it illegal?

One doesn’t need to be an international law expert to work this out. It’s quite simple. Every justification put forward by Israel for the siege, and there have been a few, involve the collective punishment of 1.5 million people, trapped between Israel and Hamas, a clear contravention of the Geneva Convention. Targeted actions against Hamas would be legitimate – the siege is not.

You don’t need to believe me: the United Nations, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and other human rights bodies, eg the Israeli B’tselem, all say it is illegal under international law.

Your next questions basically are summed up by: Which is your most strongly held belief? The rights of women to equal treatment or the recognition of Islamic values?

Once again, you fall into the trap of the false dilemma. While I strongly uphold equal rights for women, I do not regard that as excluding the rights of other peoples to their own beliefs, and specifically, I don’t advocate the wholesale slaughter of those people because I don’t approve of their internal actions. Where do you stop with that kind of belief system?

To Put it Away: regime change is a messy business that inevitably involves lots of civilian casualties. Have you learnt nothing from the debacles in Afghanistan and Iraq? In Iraq, over a million souls have died as a direct or indirect result of the war, and four million either internally or externally displaced.

The hypocrisy surrounding Iran is just diabolical. It is in only minor breach of the NPT, whereas Israel hasn’t even become a party to it. The US manipulates the Security Council as it marches to war. It has already announced that it will use the latest resolution to further punish the civilians of Iran, victims of a totalitarian regime that the West laid the groundwork for – the law of unintended consequences strikes again!

To Paul East Bay – Irgun, Stern Gang, the French Resistance, the PLO, Hamas: all terrorist groups. You can pick and choose which cause you support, but they are all of the same cloth. The FR committed many atrocities, as did the two Jewish groups. But the FR, of course, shared with us a common enemy, so that’s elevates them. And in our prejudices, we just look more kindly on the white gangs.
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June 11, 2010 5:46pm
krazykiwi

@ Lucia Maria – Based on phil’s near perpetual state of chemically induced psychosis, I suggest he’d be wise to not believe anything he sees, hears or reads. Unless it’s a knock on his door. That would be Paula.
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June 11, 2010 5:50pm
Lucia Maria

chth…

@Lucia Maria

We should really be trying to make the katipo extinct, rather than elevating it to the status of something that must be protected at all costs.

Umm…why? It’s a small spider, generally quite inoffensive and doesn’t live in the same range as people. It doesn’t come into your home. All it wants is a little strip of dunes by the edge of a beach.

I live by the beach.

When I walk on the beach, I don’t want myself or my children accused of mass murder.

If the spiders were extinct, the problem would go away.

Also, if for some reason I kill a spider either on purpose or accidentally for any reason I should deem necessary, I found it offensive in the extreme that the Government now thinks it has the right to impose a fine or a jail sentence. For a spider.
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June 11, 2010 5:50pm
Lucia Maria

KrazyKiwi,

If Phil stops believing anything, he’ll never find his way out.

All this online chatting must be therapeutic in some way for him.

*

Hi, Phil! {waves}
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June 11, 2010 5:55pm

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