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April 14, 2006 8:06am by David Farrar

Final words of Flight 93

The Sun has a copy of the transcript of the last 30 minutes of Flight 93.

One key phrase seems to be used a lot.

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adrien

“allah a’kbar”, perchance?
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April 14, 2006 8:40am
brian_smaller

Just remember that they are a tiny minority of extremists in an otherwise peaceful religion. The vast majority of moderate Islam wants nothing to do with them – in fact they actively hunt them down and turn over information to the authorities on these dangerous individuals on every possible occasion. That is why the jihadists are so easy to find. Without the help of the moderates the anti-terrorist police in the USA and Europe would be chasing shadows.
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April 14, 2006 9:08am
David Farrar

They are a minority but not a tiny minority. Around 20% to 30% os Muslims have said they support Osama bin Ladin.
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April 14, 2006 9:24am
brian_smaller

Tongue was firmly in cheek when writing my last post. 40% in UK want to live under Sharia law as well. Tiny minority – infinitesimal in fact.
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April 14, 2006 9:39am
Nigel

That might be true David, but there are so many examples in history of religions/countries doing bad things with public support, yet we do not judge ( unless a small community ) the religion or country, we judge the errand leaders & that is for good sound reasons.
Brian has it nailed we need the moderates to marganilise the extremists & that’s a politcal problem, which becomes harder every time someone associates religious beliefs to extremism, extermism distorts relgious beliefs to allow justification for it’s extremism, but that’s hardly something new, christianity has enough skeleton’s in it’s closet and could easily provide the blueprint for how to do this.
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April 14, 2006 11:58am
Jeremy

“In the name of Allah, the most merciful, the most compassionate.”
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April 14, 2006 12:08pm
Logix

40% in UK want to live under Sharia law as well.

This statement by itself is not very meaningful. For the vast majority of Muslim’s there is a major distinction between civil law, as it applies typically to criminal and contractual matters, and religious law as applied to family matters such marriage, divorce, inheritance and the like. In most Islamic countries, eg Turkey the civil law is dominant. It is only really in the most fundamentalist and backward parts of the Islamic world, where the local mullahs have become politically dominant, is the totalitarian form of sharia law practiced. Where outdated criminal sanctions of sharia law supercede modern civil law….the result is entirely deplorable.

But for most moderate Muslim’s in the western world, sharia law is restricted to meaning the adjudication of their local religious court in private family matters only, largely as an extension of cultural practise they are comfortable with. In this light is actually surprises me that only 40% expressed a preference for it. The other 60% who appear to be happy embracing Western civil values is what encourages me.

Personally I am no fan of sharia law at all, in any form…but it is wrong to scaremonger with the word. Islamic jurisprudence is a far more complex and wide a topic than stoning adulterers and homosexual’s to death.
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April 14, 2006 12:25pm
adrien

Indeed islamic jurisprudence is far more complex tan just stoning homosexals and adulterers to death. Islamic jurisprudence also regards women as no more than chattels, with appallingly few rights. And, lest we forget – Islamic jurisprudence demands that people who change their mind aout islam be killed for attempting to leave the faith.
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April 14, 2006 12:49pm
reid

Adrien, on a previous post you said:

“I’m afraid you betray a typical, predictable ignorance concerning things American.”

Just substitute “Islamic” for “American” Adrien.
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April 14, 2006 1:05pm
adrien

OK Reid – here you go – fresh from the Times website: Islamic jurisprudence in action:

The Times April 14, 2006

Teenager killed his sister for living a Western life
From Roger Boyes in Berlin

AYHAN SURUCU was so angry when his sister started to wear make-up and date German men that he put a gun to her head at a bus stop and killed her.
The 18-year-old Turk fired three bullets into her brain and calmly walked away.

Boys at a nearby school, attended mainly by the children of immigrant Muslim families, cheered and applauded when news of the murder reached them.

The so-called
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April 14, 2006 1:33pm
adrien

You see Reid, you call me ‘ignorant’, but you haven’t refuted a single point – I daresay because you can’t. If you disagree with the above description of Sharia, you better say why – otherwise you’re the only one here demonstrating ‘ignorance’.
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April 14, 2006 1:39pm
ross

Adrien,

Why not posts a comment on the US justice system, that excutes its fair share? Of course many of those executed are black and can’t afford a decent defence. Then there are those who are wrongly convicted and later executed. Sounds like the US system has a long way to go before it can be called civilised.
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April 14, 2006 2:02pm
Logix

This is an honour killing in accordance with Islamic tradition. In the Muslim world over 50 of these happen EVERY DAY. What f**king barbarity.

Purda culture and “honour” killings pre-date Islam and have far more to do with a backwards and barbaric Arabic culture than Islam. About as much to do with Islam, as burning witches at the stake had to do with Christianity.
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April 14, 2006 2:14pm
adrien

Indeed. Burning witches had everything to do with Christianity as it was carried out by Christias in the name of their Go. Thankfully, it no longer occurs. Honour killings are carried out overwhelmingly by Muslims, and are justified as being correspondant with their God’s will. Both are relgious atrocities – one is extinct, the other very much alive.

Ross – what a load of bullshit. Are you comparing a justice system with a summary execution on the street? Why shouldn’t this be posted on? is it a bit inconvenient for you?
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April 14, 2006 2:24pm
adrien

echh! “By Christians in the name of their God”.
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April 14, 2006 2:29pm
adrien

Logix – neither the Turks nor the Iranians are Arabs, but conduct many honour killings: meaning, so much for the ‘Arab culture’ theory. What do you think unifies the groups? Answer: a religious belief system.
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April 14, 2006 2:34pm
Logix

Burning witches had everything to do with Christianity

No mention of it that I ever saw in the Gospels. You are confusing religion with churches. Not always the same thing.
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April 14, 2006 2:36pm
adrien

Logix – neither the Turks nor the Iranians are Arabs, but conduct many honour killings: meaning, so much for the ‘Arab culture’ theory. What do you think unifies the groups? Answer: a religious belief system.
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April 14, 2006 2:37pm
Logix

Honour killings are most prevalent in the Arabic countries, are highly illegal in Turkey, and were so in Iran until the fundamentalist mullahs seized power again. You cannot find a single surah in the Koran to justify it.

The two most destructive wars in all history were fought by mostly Christian nations….but I guess you wouldn’t want me concoting some “Christian culture” theory on that basis.

Oh and by the way…I realise nothing I can say will change your closed mind, but I do feel compelled to ask where your thinking takes you? If you believe all Muslims are evil, then precisely what do you think should be done about it?

And
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April 14, 2006 2:47pm
adrien

No, Logix – you can’t get out of it that easily. Any system IS what its practioners do. The Gospels have always been interpreted. It was widely accepted for hundreds of years that burning witches was in line with Christian doctrine. that practice is part of the history of Christianity’s belief system, whether it’s convient to acknowledge it or not for you. Many Christian practices of today may be non-existent in 200 years – it dosn’t suddenly erase them from Christianity’s history.
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April 14, 2006 2:48pm
Adolf Fiinkensein

Nigel, if you are going to attempt erudition, please first learn the language. ‘Errand?”
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April 14, 2006 3:00pm
adrien

Quite simply, I’m especially appalled by the human rights situation of women around the world, but particularly in Islamic societies. Why does that entail a ‘closed mind’? I’m equally appalled that many left-wingers (I consider myself part of a ‘left’ political philosophy, but much of what passes for thought in today’s left disgusts me) who scream themselves blue about Gitmo and abu ghraib have nothing to say when it comes to the appalling amount of suffering inflicted on women in much of the world. It’s generaly a ‘non-issue’ – try to find a left blog that will discuss the brutal and organised killing of women and children in Sudan. My heroes are people like Aryaan Hirsi Ali (still under armed guard and still receiving eath threats)who won’t be stopped from speaking out about the brutality of gender apartheid. That she has been criticised by European feminists says much. Given that female suffering in these endless cases is still largely silent, with little media coverage, and few questions being asked that would rock the boat of cultural relativism – something from which Islamic women lose hugely – I see it as worthwhile to try to bring such issues to some light.
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April 14, 2006 3:04pm
rightkiwi

The is no such thing as a ‘moderate’ Muslim, just as there is no such this as a ‘modernist’ Christian. These are people who have, in fact, stopped believing in God/Allah and their ‘holy’ texts, but still have some emotional need to remain part of the club. All Muslins who truly believe in Allah and the Koran are killers, and must be – just as all Christians who truly believe must be extremists. How can anyone ‘moderately’ believe in absolutist fairytales promising eternal life to them and their family ad friends?
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April 14, 2006 10:01pm
mavxp

rightkiwi said: “How can anyone ‘moderately’ believe in absolutist fairytales promising eternal life to them and their family ad friends?”

um, they can and they do. And yes thats orthodox christianity, orthodox islam, orthodox judaism, not some fringe fundamentalist extremist cult. Maybe you have no faith in anything you cant see or touch, but it doesnt mean its irrational of people to have faith.

People are complex, and having a faith in God (of some sort) is actually the norm in the world. If you think its a fairy tale, thats fine, in fact i’m a little worried when people make out they have blind faith in these things and dont have some doubt themselves, but claiming everyone else in the world who thinks different to you is somehow an extremist nutcase is a tad arrogant, to put it politely.
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April 14, 2006 11:08pm
TomTom

do any of you actually believe for a minute that the transcript is real?
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April 15, 2006 7:13am
reid

TomTom it’s true there are a number of anomalies in the Flight 93 story – the cell phone calls from the plane, the time of the crash conflicting with seismic data by 3 mins, the debris field being spread over miles. Are there others you have in mind?

For those who don’t know what I’m talking about: (1) Many passengers made cell phone calls to their families. From an airline at Flight 93’s altitude, that’s not usually possible since the signal from the ground stations keeps changing. It’s an established, well known problem, I’ve checked that myself with a pilot friend and only days ago I heard some airline recently announced they’re installing equipment to enable this function. Didn’t have it back in 2001 though. Hello.

The Wiki entry for Flight 93 has something on the cell phones essentially saying it’s not unknown for them to be made successfully and, it says, many flights have the odd one or two calls made. I don’t know the veracity of that Wiki claim. However, it seems odd to me that many passengers could talk for long periods without disruptions.

(2) A seismograph picked up the crash and pegged the time at 10:06 and the seismologists issued a report stating a margin of error +/- 5 secs. Look at the transcript and you’ll see it stops at 10:03. The 911 commission report says one of the seismologists emailed the commission disavowing his initial findings but it hasn’t published the email. It said that because of the poor signal/noise ratio in the seismographic data, it was going to ignore it and used the electronic signals to peg the crash at 10:03. Fine, but that data comes from NORAD which means they’re using government data to establish what happened and if the government’s lying then there’s an obvious problem. And why would the government lie?

(3) The debris field. The story is the plane flipped on its back and dived intact into the ground. However, witnesses reported debris raining down like confetti miles from the crash site. How could that be? There seems to be a possibility the government shot the plane down and isn’t telling the truth about it. Apparently the flight path took it very close to a VX nerve gas destruction facility that had 1600 tons on hand on 11/9/01. The weather conditions were perfect for dispersal and there could have been horrendous casualties in the millions if Flight 93 had crashed into that. Judge for yourselves if you’re interested. The story’s laid out in this link – debris field aspects are covered in the lst 2 parts:
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kovach/050914

Also see:
seismic report
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/nodate/seismicobservations.html
wiki entry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_93
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April 15, 2006 9:36am
Simon

Here is another link for you reid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/xfiles/

With all the overwhelming evidence you might like to sue who ever you think is really responsible.
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April 15, 2006 10:14am
reid

Simon, I never said what I think, I said there are anomalies in the official story, which there are. They are over all the 911 events and they’re not even well hidden. Look at the Pentagon incident for example. Now building an explanation of what did happen is speculation, but the anomalies in the official story are facts.

I compare it to JFK – there are various theories describing who might have done it and what really happened – that’s spreculation. However, that something happened other than LHO acting alone, is an absolute fact. For example: fact – the secret service agent who climbed onto the back of the car said Kennedy had a wound in the back of his head the size of his palm; fact – the official autopsy photos show a small hole in the crown of his head and no sign of such a wound. Fact fact fact. Deny them if you want and some also choose to throw epithets at people who raise them, but those are facts.

I wonder how many people in 1967 would have accepted that JFK wasn’t murdered by LHO acting alone? In 2006, is there anyone who doesn’t?
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April 15, 2006 10:39am
Simon

The official story has anomalies? Is that it? nothing else? This is government we are talking about I don’t expect normality when dealing with government but an endless series of half arsed outcomes or “anomalies” in health, education and including defense.

Fact is the people on flight 93 knew that the Feds weren’t going to help them you can feel that awareness when reading about this flight. Now the government makes promises it can’t keep but a conspiracy this all here don’t make.
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April 15, 2006 11:45am
reid

As I said above, Flight 93 is only one of the events. If you look at the total picture and eliminate the impossible then whatever’s left, no matter how absurd, must be true.

Just like with JFK, the implications are that the whole truth is not being revealed. If you’re comfortable with that in terms of the biggest event thus far in most people’s lifetimes, that’s subsequently been used as a rationale to fundamentally change geopolitical policies, then good on you.
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April 15, 2006 12:07pm
the deity formerly known as nigel6888

oh God, who let reid out from under his rock?

reattach his tinfoil hat and hope he finds some other blog to pester.
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April 15, 2006 12:21pm
geniusNZ

> But the anomalies in the official story are facts.

The only people who benefit from the debate are conspiracy theorists trying to sell books (damn capitalism!). It is a bit like the argument about people landing on the moon. So what is the point in explaining away all the anomalies? – It just isn’t worth anyone’s time to refute it. So it would be odd to expect them to all be dealt with.
This gets worse many years after the fact. There is no point defending the evidence years after the fact so the quality of the debate probably drops through the floor.
You can see this in the debates raging about any conspiracy theory – either you believe them all (which would create an insanely irrational world of Elvis lead abducting capitalist aliens) or you can see the sorts of dynamics involved.
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April 15, 2006 12:35pm
reid

The reason I kept mentioning JFK is because there’s general agreement there was a coverup.

So what are the implications of that? Oh nothing really except that there are groups with the power to kill a US President and keep it quiet and destroy evidence and manipulate findings from official bodies, etc, etc.

Is that not a reasonable conclusion to draw from the facts surrounding the JFK incident? Who these people are and why they did it and what they’re doing now, that’s where the theory comes in. But the fact that all those things happened is not disputed by people who know the case.

911 is exactly the same, if you have a look at the incidents with an objective frame of mind. There’s nothing tinfoil, theoretical or conspiratorial about analysing 911 the same way you analyse JFK.

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/

http://tyrannyalert.com/video.htm

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change
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April 15, 2006 1:46pm
Ed Snack

Reid, better take cover, black helicopters have been seen heading in your direction !
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April 15, 2006 2:07pm
adrien

Oh my God, Mulder! They’re using the facility to extract alien DNA!!!
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April 15, 2006 2:12pm
geniusNZ

On its face the JFK story that involves a man on a grassy knoll shooting JFK is a “good” conspiracy theory. It just requires one extra man who only needs to coordinate with the patsy (although that is harder than it sounds it is not impossible).

The twin towers being rigged with explosives (or some similar stories) require a few thousand extra people, just for starters.
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April 15, 2006 3:39pm
Logix

The twin towers being rigged with explosives (or some similar stories) require a few thousand extra people, just for starters.

Not necessarily. The whole 911 scenario could have been pulled off with only a handful of operatives.

Personally I’ve done many hundreds of hours of reading on this topic and I’ve come to the firm conclusion that the official story is a propaganda fairy-tale. Yet a very real problem with the 911 Truth movement is that it has attempted to find the “truth”, whereas all they really should have done is focus on the “untruth’s” of the official story. Given also that much of their truth-seeking has been amateur speculation of varying quality, based on incomplete information, it is quite reasonable that different sources have arrived at differing interpretations. There is no one reliable source, yet overall there is a clear pattern. Some apsects of the investigation have stood the test of time, others have fallen away. With time the wilder speculations have been discredited and in fact the best questioning is now coming from genuinely informed engineering and physics professionals.

The best way to approach the 911 crime is to think as a detective would. The truth of the matter will have conform with ALL the known facts. The official story ignores literally dozens of facts, or attempts grossly flawed explanations for them.

At the same time I am just an ordinary kiwi many tens of thousands of miles away, and I have no special knowledge of the events of that day and I do not know the truth of the events of that day. And why should I? What I do know is that there is no reason for me to believe a US Administration that blatantly lied it’s way into Iraq, and is about to nuke Iran, has no credibility on this topic either. Watching 911 unfold was at the time like watching a stage magician. You did not have to know exactly how he was doing the trick, just that he was a magician, and his purpose was to fool you.

Overall if yourself trouble to read a range of it, and familiarise yourself with the incontrovertable facts that are in the public domain, that can be cross-checked from multiple sources, then you realise the only wearers of tin-foil hats are those who idiotically regurgitate the TV News.
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April 15, 2006 8:40pm
geniusNZ

> The truth of the matter will have conform with ALL the known facts.

I would propose that no story ever lives up to this standard. And if the proof was available you wouldnt seek it out and thus would never see it and presume it doesnt exist.

For example one could produce a site like this
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html
http://mckinneysucks.blogspot.com/
http://mckinneysucks.blogspot.com/2002_06_01_mckinneysucks_archive.html#78095719
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html
No conspiracy here
http://genius.tblog.com/post/291001#comment_anchor

but one cannot refute every posible issue… but that seems to be what you are asking for.

If you do that you should realise that failure to get a response is not evidence at all.

Besides it is pretty similar to the holocaust never occured or similar debates. If you got into a debate with one of these guys he would probably be quite convincing – just like the aliens guys and the moon landing guys.
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April 15, 2006 10:00pm
Logix

Nice try with the holocaust, aliens and moon landing hoax smears. Classic strawman tactics. As was the Popular Mechanics article. And the other two sites you reference sites I am happily familiar with. Not much quibble with them in fact.

But invalid or weak speculations on the part of the 911 “investigators” does not make the official story any the less a lie, there is simply FAR too much material that invalidates it at one level or another. It literally takes months to read even a good selection of all the 911 material, and I am a fast reader. After a while I realised I was peering through a “glass darkly”, getting snatches and traces of usable information…in the end you just have to be prepared to do the work to make up your own mind. And I do not get mine made up for me by the TV News.

I take refuge in the fact that in the long-run, all “conventional wisdom” is proven wrong.
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April 15, 2006 10:41pm
TheProphet

So – Who makes up your news Logix?

Where does all this information you devour come from?
Not the TV – as you have said.
Books?,the net? – are they really anymore believable than propaganda TV news?Come on, really?

Funnily enough your theory seems to fit with your political views.(‘no reason for me to believe a US Administration that blatantly lied it’s way into Iraq, and is about to nuke Iran, has no credibility on this topic either.’)

Gee thats a surprise isn’t it.
It doesn’t really matter what happened on 9/11.
Its tomorrow that worries me.

Allah protect us.
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April 16, 2006 4:43am
adrien

Next you’ll be telling us that the Jews where indeed all warned to stay home, Logix…

Gee – this Maussaoui guy must also be a US govt plant then, seeing he’s quite happy (indeed proud) to take the death-penalty rap for it.
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April 16, 2006 5:55am
exocet

Yes it always interests me that those people who are willing to believe conspirsy theories are only willing to believe that which reinforces their own political viewpoints

I mean, if you disliked and distrusted the US Government, of course you are more likley to believe that they killed JFK, faked the moon landings, planted explosives on the Twin towers etc etc.
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April 16, 2006 9:48am
geniusNZ

Logix,
your argument was that the current theory must have no flaws, was that not what you meant? If it was then to be fair you must also reject the “established” theory regarding any of the other issues.

> there is simply FAR too much material that invalidates it at one level or another.

What evidence? Maybe we have some sort of religion forming here.
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April 16, 2006 10:18am
reid

Exocet “those people who are willing to believe conspirsy theories are only willing to believe that which reinforces their own political viewpoints”

You’re dead wrong on that from my perspective – the possibilities raised by the 911 events went right against my conservative native instincts. I looked at 911 for months before concluding that something was indeed seriously wrong. Since then however that conclusion has been reinforced by numerous subsequent events.

I don’t look at 911 anymore, I moved on from that years ago. But for me it was a portal to real forces that actively affect our world.

Looking at who those people are and what they do and what they try to avoid and hide opens doors to upcoming events.

For example I said about 2 years ago on either NZPundit or here that Plamegate would involve Libby, Rove, Bush and Cheney. People gave the usual disparaging response at the time. 3/4 so far.

I try to be open-minded about the possibility that Bush really does want only to fight the war on terror and promote democracy in the middle-east. It’s just that I don’t see that on any reading of reality you can support that hypothesis as being the most likely conclusion.
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April 16, 2006 10:52am
Logix

Next you’ll be telling us that the Jews where indeed all warned to stay home, Logix…

Well no I am not. More from the Strawman Writers Guild.

911 has of course attracted more than it’s share of the genuine 18g tinfoil hat brigade…why would it not? And of course some of these people are working with limited and patchy information and biassed agendas, and as a result they reach wrong conclusions. You have to expect that. And there is little doubt that a fair amount of deliberate misinformation has been put out as well. I do not believe anyone owes me the truth…it has to be worked for.

Over a year ago I raised on this blog, the topic of the US/Israel planning a pre-emptive strike on Iran, and it was dismissed as crazy talk. Back in 2003 when Bush and Powell were beating the drums of war to invade Iraq I was reading blogs that unequivocally proved that the statements being made by the US and UK Administrations were wrong. That is why I say they lied. If blogs being run on spare change knew the truth, then so did the President of the USA who had at his command the most powerful network of Intelligence forces in all history.

As Reid stated above, .. for me it was a portal to real forces that actively affect our world. Once you realise that the TV News is propaganda, and you start LOOKING under the layers of “conventional wisdom”, then I am humbled by how little us ordinary people actually know…and with what contempt the real powers in the world treat us.
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April 16, 2006 12:01pm

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